Superthrive

[Cycadcenter]

I was looking around the frozen tundra this morning admiring my collection of brown leafed palms and cycads.  

We have already cut off the leaves of most of the green encephalartos as the leaves were going mushy and treated everything with a good dose of daconil as a preventative.

Came in for lunch and on the back of one of the trade magazines was the usual ad for "SUPERTHRIVE" claiming to be able to revive plants from their frozen state.

The only time I have used superthrive is the free samples they give away at the trade shows.

Has anyone/does anybody use "SUPERTHRIVE" on a regular basis with any good results.

Thanks

[Carlo Morici]

My short answer is: Superman does not exist.

My medium-sized answer is  - did you see their webpage... http://www.superthrive.com/... isn't that just too ridiculous?

My long answer is  ... too long.  ::

Carlo

[Nigel]

Well............. you can grow things normally with normal results, or you can add Superthrive or an equivalent and get fabulous results.

I know the ad is cheesy but the results are not fiction.

I have conducted a lot of tests with overpowering results using a Superthrive copy here in the UK.

Here is 2 identical palms planted spring 2005. The one on the right was fed fortnightly with superthrive and pictured september 2005 having grown at twice the speed through summer.

Spring 2006.

I dont think it makes the palm hardier as such, it just builds a very large root system and makes a much more vigorous and resistant plant. My results are so good that all my palms both at home and in the nursery are fed on the stuff and they are growing twice as big and strong as they ever did before.

[Kev Spence]

Yes I use superthrive and where as it is always difficult to quantify the ammount of improvement there has been plenty of vigour on my palms here in the Uk.

I think it is especially useful on newly planted palms to envigorate new root growth as I have recently planted some sizable palms here and where as UK guys have noticed a slowing down of  growth after transplantation my palms especially my Trithrinax campestris has made new growth trunkwise in the same year of planting.

As regards to bringing your plants back to life after freeze damage I would be unsure but it will help with new root growth and perhaps if you had been using it last year they would be more chance of the Cycads pulling through.

I think I am also right in saying its not worth using until your temps have warmed a little and the plants are actively growing.

Btw very sad to see your rows of brown cycads on another thread.

We also have been having freeze temps here in the UK 7 consecutive days of frost so far with a min of -6 C

Carlo your link does not work for me.

kev

Waggies look nice in the frost though.

[Carlo Morici]

The link does not work because I unwillingly used three dots after the link... but I can't edit what I write!

The right link is http://www.superthrive.com

The contents shown in the ads ("50 in one: 50 different vitamines+hormones") are different from the contents shown on the label (Just: "Vitamin B-1 0,09% and 1-Naphtyl acetic 0,048%"). This alone is enough to make the product illegal in many countries (or at least the advertisement).

Let's believe it is just what is shown on the label (Vitamin B-1 0,09% and 1-Naphtyl acetic 0,048%):

1) These are common plant hormones that you can buy almost wherever. You dont need a "tm" brand. Any plant physiologists know them very well.

2) The action of plant hormones changes dramatically according to the concentration you use, you can't just use a "handful". The same molecules can cause opposite effects at different concentrations.

3) Hormones are dangerous if used at the wrong moment. A too-short example is: if you give a growth hormone to a plant that is not growing in winter, then you will promote growth ... and possibly kill the plant.

Carlo

[Nigel]

(Carlo Morici @ Feb. 10 2007,17:55)

QUOTE

3) Hormones are dangerous if used at the wrong moment. A too-short example is: if you give a growth hormone to a plant that is not growing in winter, then you will promote growth ... and possibly kill the plant.

Carlo

Not when its a root hormone that only seems to work above a certain temperature.

I have used the stuff prodigously and I guarantee that ALL my palms are bigger and stronger, and seemingly hardier.

Carlo, you need to try it , then you might realise what you are missing.

Many of the large american growers have been using it for years,and it had a good write up in Palms recently.

[cfkingfish]

I never did a comparison chart on what does grow and what does not, but I use Superthrive occasionally when I feel the plant wants to take off! For example, I have 2 20 gallon Satakentias hanging out in the nursery that have just been repotted. When we start having reliable temps around 80F in about a month, Ill shoot them with the stuff. It seems like some things are just taking off that aren't naturally fast plants when young, such as a few New Caledonians. I dont' swear by the stuff but I think it does something significant given the right amount and timing.

[John Case]

I read the website.....

P.T. Barnum would approve

[Alan_Tampa]

P.T. would be jealous...

but no harm (probably) in trying?

Alan

[DoomsDave]

Okay.

I read that website.

Egad.  Gadzooks!

I wanna run out and kick the nearest dog, possum, wolverine or anything what would balm my soul that someone, anyone would think that I was such a dumb [fill in your fave expletive, sex included] to fall for such, well [expletive] nonsense.

But.

BUT.

Sometimes content does trump style.

I offer an example, far far from palmdom:  Suze Ormon.

Here's her link.  click here for Suze Ormond Website

She comes across as so, well, over-the-top.  She was on PBS(!) one night, and I was ready to kick the police dogs when she gave some good general advice, i.e, to spend the time to manage your own finances.  

Faith and begorrah!  

I represent people who offer financial advice, and many just say "let me do it".  (The best ones aren't like that, but they don't get sued much.)  Suze has the right general idea.  (Yeah, not wild about some of her specific recommendations.)

The point being, substance trumps style.

(Nice doggy!  Oh, those teeth look sharp!)

Those Superthrive ads are SO sleazy.

But Nigel's observations are useful.

So, Nigel, any more proof?

I want to know.

Dave (kicked doggy barking and pooping in the yard)

[PalmGuyWC]

Kev,

My Wags looked just like yours a couple of weeks ago when we were having night after night of freezes and frost.  They do look rather attractive frosted, and none of mine have shown the slightest damage.

Dick

[DoomsDave]

Kev!

The wags rock in the snow.  Those pix are exquisite!

I nominate this one to our next best palm pic contest:

[Tad]

there was an article in the palm journal that proved the stuff no workee!!!

[Mats]

(bepah @ Feb. 10 2007,19:44)

QUOTE

I read the website.....  P.T. Barnum would approve.

Superthrive™'s packaging reminds me of Dr. Bronner's Castile Soap.   Dr Bronner's labels were printed with tiny, psycho messages that read like the ramblings of a paranoid Old Testament prophet.

[Nigel]

(Dave from So-Cal @ Feb. 10 2007,20:05)

QUOTE

Those Superthrive ads are SO sleazy.

But Nigel's observations are useful.

So, Nigel, any more proof?

I want to know.

Dave,

It takes 2 years in the UK to take a Trachy seedling from seed to split leaf. With superthrive it takes 1 year.

It takes 3 years to reroot a large Butia by which time it has deteriorated badly. With superthrive it takes 1 year.

Palms respond very well to NAA ( active ingredient of superthrive) , synthetic hormone for Indole acetic acid. NAA will encourage a rapid burst of new root growth.

In transplants this equates to a fast transition without setback, as it takes the palm out of shock.

In terms of growing , a larger rootmass enables the palm to take much more food and water , if it can do that it is going to grow much faster because during summer it is able to keep its stoma open fully for much longer periods and photosynthesise better. All my palms are bigger and more robust, its not a hormone that forces soft growth which are not backed up by root mass.

I dont know about the other 49 ingredients of Superthrive , its the NAA that makes it do wonders.

[Kris]

(Nigel @ Feb. 10 2007,16:42)

QUOTE

it just builds a very large root system and makes a much more vigorous and resistant plant. My results are so good that all my palms both at home and in the nursery are fed on the stuff and they are growing twice as big and strong as they ever did before.

Dear Nigel  

iam trying many different types of fertilizers,they only tend

to make the leaves appear greaner but as you mentioned

the stem and roots does not become any big at all.

so i think super thrive had done its job.

since i do not have accesses to this product in india_but

iam trying to acheive the results what you have stated.

So i think that fert actually works_Okay !

Thanks for the thread,

Love,

Kris(India).

[Nigel]

Here is an experiment with a 3 year old Jubaea seedling I bought ,the middle one is after repotting into coir soaked with Superthrive after just 8 weeks in cool UK.

Here is a pic showing root development on transplanted Butia. The small Butia rootball was planted into the ground with an inch or two of coir soaked with superthrive, packed around its rootball much like the Jubaea seedling above.

Here you can see the new secondary roots branching from old cut roots travelling into the coir after 3 months, and this was spring which is not overly warm in the UK.

After 3 more months there is both a mass of secondary roots, plus many new primary roots extending out beyond the coir into the garden soil. The palm is now in full growth which is unheard of in the UK within the first year for a transplant mature Butia in the UK with almost no root .

[Neofolis]

I use the same product as Nigel, based largely on his recommendation.  I don't really have a comparison, because I use it on all newly re-potted plants, but I did have one comparison experience.  When I tried to grow my pineapple top, I followed the instructions given on a website, as discussed in the "How To Grow A Pineapple" thread.  Having cut the top off and allowed it to dry out, he instructions stated that I should get the top to root in water before planting.  I thought that as I was trying to promote root growth, I would add a little of the hormone liquid.  The site said that root growth should be fairly well progressed by three weeks, but mine had done nothing, despite following the instructions implicitly and changing the water every two to three days and each time adding more hormones.  After about four weeks, I decided to stop adding the hormones and within a week the roots started to grow.

This doesn't really prove anything for or against the product,  partly because I didn't do a comparison at the same time without the hormones and also because it probably isn't the correct way to use it.  For all I know without the hormones the top would have rotted and died or the roots may have taken even longer to grow.

Either way, I have not been put off using the product, because most of my plants are very vigorous, healthy and have strong root systems.  I don't use a lot of it, maybe a bottle per year, so I don't really have a problem with spending the little it does cost relative to my annual spend on plants and maintenance and, if it is helping, then all well and good.

[Dypsisdean]

(Nigel @ Feb. 10 2007,11:42)

QUOTE

Well............. you can grow things normally with normal results, or you can add Superthrive or an equivalent and get fabulous results.

I know the ad is cheesy but the results are not fiction.

I have conducted a lot of tests with overpowering results using a Superthrive copy here in the UK.

Here is 2 identical palms planted spring 2005. The one on the right was fed fortnightly with superthrive and pictured september 2005 having grown at twice the speed through summer.

Spring 2006.

I dont think it makes the palm hardier as such, it just builds a very large root system and makes a much more vigorous and resistant plant. My results are so good that all my palms both at home and in the nursery are fed on the stuff and they are growing twice as big and strong as they ever did before.

Nigel,

I wasn't clear about the photos of the test you posted. I know the palm on the right got Super Thrive, but what did the palm on the left get?

[Nigel]

(Dypsisdean @ Feb. 11 2007,03:37)

QUOTE

I know the palm on the right got Super Thrive, but what did the palm on the left get?

They were both treated in identical fashion, watering, feeding etc, except that the palm on the right got fortnightly doses of Superthrive equivalent. I think the reason it survived winter when the other did not was down to the fact that the NAA made it root fully into the ground and establish good new growth, so it was much tougher.

Apart from my initial tests to establish if it really worked ,I dont use Superthrive now, I use my own NAA product sold through my website  which works just as well. I noticed that Matt was talking about a wonder product from Phil recently...........

[Palmtrader]

I have been using Superthrive for two years now at my nursery in Valencia on seedlings and the results are staggering with most seedlings growing at twice the rate. I am past the experimental stage with this product and now use it on all, young plams and seedlings using a weekly application on the seedlings and a fortnightly application on young  plants during the growing season.

[Carlo Morici]

We have come to a common point: Superthrive “does not exist”:  it is B1 + NAA.  - Good Old NAA -

These are the friendlier names of what is shown on the label :“Vitamin B-1 0,09% and 1-Naphtyl acetic 0,048%”, then buy the true things which are surely cheaper, instead of that fancy TM brand.

B1+NAA are fine in many cases, but it is nothing super. It is wonderfully real life. I am not against hormones. I like the concept but I dislike Superthrive style.

I believe hormones are occasionally welcome, especially to help plants in certain cases or to accelerate and synchronize commercial production. I seldom use them, but I use them. Try NAA on Hedyscepe and call me back. I also have scientist friends who work on hormones in labs and I know they could induce  a Roystonea to produce a flower from a root tip (I mean, theoretically – it never happened!). I also buy meat at the supermarket and I know all those little animals get hormones. But I also know that naturally bred free-ranging beasts are much happier and stronger and taste much better.

Taste and happiness besides, I said they are “stronger”. Living beings treated on the long term with hormones are generally weaker to sudden changes. And any healthy living being produces all the needed hormones. Like this: grown with NO HORMONES (well, ALL hormones but self-produced)  ;

B1 and NAA are not root hormones. They are “general” hormones that can act differently when applied to different plant parts. None of them starts working above or below a certain temperature. They are not comparable to osmocote-like (osmotically coated) fertilizers, that are released when certain point of Temp/humidity is reached. I understand they work at any temperature, but possibly the plant does not intake them at wrong temperatures. If so, if you spray the plant at the wrong temperature, it can stay on the leaf and be washed away or degraded anyhow, so you are wasting your can. Also, NAA can cause toxicity both in plants and humans (google NAA toxicity).

I invite you all to step into the magical world of plant hormones: you can play being god, or simply you are the master and the plant is your dog, doing tricks.

You, mango tree: Bloom now!

You rose, take a rest now, because I want you to be loaded later on mother’s day.

You peach tree, shed leaves in full summer – come on! (Doses increased) Come on - shed leaves now!

These jokes are not jokes – it is applied science. But this is also another step towards artificiality and abuse or continuous use can be disappointing. The higher you fly the harder you will fall. The more you use fertilizers, the more you build shelters, use hormones, install irrigation...

I am having a lot of fun with this thread. Kev’s waggies pictures are divine. I am glad of Nigel’s solid results with NAA. I also visited his beautifully designed website. It took me a while to understand Dave’s English, and I still don’t know what is “Egad. Gadzooks!”, but I laughed quite a bit. I visited Suze Ormond’s website and I also checked Dr. Bronner's Castile Soap suggested by Mats. Suze Ormond is quite of concern and her website is quite aggressive, but Superthrive is really too much – be sure to check again any and all the pages of the web.  

And back to the first post of this topic : I think Cycadcenter has to wait a bit for spring before applying anything. Especially Cycads should wait, until their usual flushing season. A defoliated cycad can effortlessly wait for months before producing new flushes. A frost to them is just like one another fire in the bush.

Carlo

[Kris]

Hey guys help me out on this one !

can i get the chemical composition or contents that make

up this superthrive stuff.

dont worry iam not starting a factory here.but i get fertilizers

here in their chemical names and not any fertilizer for palms,

cycas or cactus.things that are avaliable here are...

1.amoniam sulphate

2.potassium sulphate

3.urea.

3.Potash

4.Di Amoniaum phospahate(this is what i use for all my plants)

5.complex 16-16-16

6.zinc sulphate

7.megnesium sulphate

8.manganese sulphate

9.ferrous sulphate

10.Super Phosphate

thats all i could remember folks.

now tell me using which of the above chemicals will have the

results that our friend Nigel has acheived.i want my palms

to appear as though as they are on steroids.

And folks dont think iam just joking_please help me with the

avaliable list of chemicals..

And carlos please do not repeat that still,that palm haunts me

in my night sleep_like the condours in Lord of the rings.  

Waiting for your replies eagerly.

Thanks & Love,

Kris  

[Nigel]

Carlo, I think one of the reasons it is of so much use to us in the UK is our cool climate.

Maybe its cheating, but when you can root transplanted palms in 1 year instead of 3 , 2 years growth in 1 year, and achieve a large robust palm which deals with winter better, the pro`s will always outweigh the cons.

In your climate you only have to give food and water and your palm produces all the hormones it needs. In our climate the palm is not producing many hormones....

I would never contemplate using GA3 or anything like that, because I nkow all too well the dangers of forcing growth. I know NAA is not exclusively a root hormone, but that is where it has the most effect at low concentrations and is what its largely used for in the nursery trade.

On subject of root growth at low temps, I am not seeing any winter growth in potted roots, most seem dormant in the greenhouse.

What happens with Hedyscape ? I have also noticed that it works much better on palms whose roots are capable of branching after being cut.  I would have thought that the amounts being used in superthrive when diluted are never going to be anything other than very low.

Anyway, after 3 years of using NAA at low concentrations I have not yet seen any detrimental results here.

Kris, you can buy NAA in a chemist shop here and Vitamin B1. The problem is dissolving and getting the concentrations right, in my opinion that is a dangerous thing to do. I buy in a professionally made product.

[Kris]

Thanks very much Nigel for that prompt reply.

and hope few other heavy weights will also

answer to my queries in their style.

wish to hear more on this steriod type of grouth...

So guys please help by speaking your mind on how

to acheive rapid grouth using the chemicals listed

above.

and will the agriculture departmental stores sell these

NAA and Vitamin B1 kind of stuff ??

since i want my bizie lady,CIDP,washy filifera,washy filibusta,

blue hasper palms grown like arnold or stallone_kindly help !

Thanks & Love,

Kris.

[Kris]

Dear folks kindly help me grow a stronger

looking healthy palms..

[PalmGuyWC]

OK, I'm sold. I've always thought the stuff was just hype.  I have long cool springs and sometimes, like last year, it doesn't warm up till June.  I divide my Rhapis in April, and they are slow to start growing again.  A little Kick-Start there would be a great help.  I'll try it....let you know my results.

Dick

[Nigel]

I have just been informed that many adventitious roots are formed at higher concentration levels, to get copious secondary roots like in my pics it has to be a low level which is reassuring !

[Cycadcenter]

Thanks for all the feedback which seems to be about 50/50 so I've decided I'll probably do about 50% of the plants and see the results.

I will be digging about 1000 Cycas taitungensis in a month or so which are abt 10" in Diameter so I figure it will be a good experiment to try it on some

Thanks again

[freekypalmguy]

I bought some today to do some experimenting with. We will see.

This is what their advertising reminds me of.....

[Bennz]

If NAA is the major auxin creating this increase, what about other auxins such as IBA? Has anyone trialed a series of auxins alone with a control to see if there is significant advantages?

The idea of a commonly used 'rooting hormone' applied to established seedlings has never occured to me. I've always liked the idea of trying to induce tetraploidy via various mutagenic substances, but always been put off by the extremely carcinogenic qualities most of them have. Plus the fact that messing with genetics can be nasty. A tetraploid kentia could look pretty groovy. assuming they are actually diploid, shows how little I actually know about anything...

[Nigel]

(Bennz @ Feb. 12 2007,02:25)

QUOTE

A tetraploid kentia could look pretty groovy. assuming they are actually diploid, shows how little I actually know about anything...

Oh yes, we share the same thoughts, except I want to go for a tetraploid Trachy....

To Kris , try your local pharmacy for Napthalene acetic acid . I advise you not to mix it yourself , ask if the pharmacist can make you a solution because it does not readily dissolve in water.

Be careful with concentrations, Superthrive is 0.05% NAA and is mixed with water in ratio 1000:1 part superthrive. It is very powerful stuff and needs to be used at very low concentrations.

[jam99]

(Nigel @ Feb. 12 2007,02:32)

QUOTE

Oh yes, we share the same thoughts, except I want to go for a tetraploid Trachy....

Nigel, excuse my ignorance, but what would you gain by having a tetraploid Trachycarpus? I understand it would have a double number of chromosomes but what else? Cheers, Jan

[Nigel]

(jam99 @ Feb. 12 2007,03:40)

QUOTE

Nigel, excuse my ignorance, but what would you gain by having a tetraploid Trachycarpus? I understand it would have a double number of chromosomes but what else? Cheers, Jan

Jan, what indeed !

In theory, a huge Trachy with great heavy leaves, but thats pure speculation on my part.

What an experiment it would be to find out !

[jam99]

I wasn't aware of that. I remember reading somewhere tetraploids in general can attain greater proportions (bigger flowers but of less amount) but at the same time they grow slower and with less vigour than their diploid relatives. But maybe I got it all wrong.

[Kris]

(Nigel @ Feb. 12 2007,03:56)

QUOTE

what indeed !

In theory, a huge Trachy with great heavy leaves, but thats pure speculation on my part.

What an experiment it would be to find out !

Dear Nigel  

Thanks a lot for that info on NAA & Vitamin B1..

When i get time i will certainly hunt for those chemicals.

And iam glad there are many people in this forum who

think like me.

That is making our plants look healthier & bigger.since i

like to see my CIDP,Bismarkia,Blue hasper,Med fan palm,

Triangle palm,bottle palm,lipstick palm,latania's_all grow

different than the normal sized ones..

Thanks a lot my friend for those valuable info on chemicals,

Love,

Kris.

[JakeK]

Woah! That Jubaea seedling is humongous compared to the others.

Here' a question...

All of my palms but two species will spend approximately 5 solid months indoors & most are still very young. Would a product like Superthrive along with the right levels of humidity, moisture & light produce palms that could better sustain themselves through 5 months of indoor life than my palms can do now (push 1-2 new frond during 5 months)?

[Nigel]

(JakeK @ Feb. 12 2007,12:17)

QUOTE

All of my palms but two species will spend approximately 5 solid months indoors & most are still very young. Would a product like Superthrive along with the right levels of humidity, moisture & light produce palms that could better sustain themselves through 5 months of indoor life than my palms can do now (push 1-2 new frond during 5 months)?

Jake , I bring palms into the house like everybody else, but actually its not a good idea.

Growth in the house with low light levels is really weak and this year i decided to leave most of it outside.

I really think trying to force growth indoors during winter with superthrive is not the right way.

[JakeK]

I think I phrased my question wrong, but I think you somewhat answered indirectly.

I am really not looking for winter growth, as I acclimatize them during the fall to lower light levels, but rather would a larger healthier root mass from using Superthrive have any positive benefits for my palms during this 5 month stretch over not using it at all?

I am thinking that superthrive or a similar product may really benefit my needles and sabal minors outside though.

[Nigel]

(JakeK @ Feb. 12 2007,13:56)

QUOTE

I think I phrased my question wrong, but I think you somewhat answered indirectly.

I am really not looking for winter growth, as I acclimatize them during the fall to lower light levels, but rather would a larger healthier root mass from using Superthrive have any positive benefits for my palms during this 5 month stretch over not using it at all?

It would be good to use it when they go back outside jake, but not before .