Quiz, which Livistona would eventually outgrow the other?

[Phoenikakias 2,018]

If one plants to close two juvenile palms one decora and one australis in a warm mediterranean place (meaning that during actual growing season is dry without artificial irrigation and cool to cold winter) which of them would predictably outgrow some time the other one?

[Walter John 220]

Just re-read this, I'm not sure, because in fav sub tropical, decora would smash australis, I don't know, question, do they both grow in your climate stated ? Anyone else growing them ?

[Phoenikakias 2,018]

Yes Wal, both are growing in my climate and in my garden. But they have started together from a different size. Actually the decora started from a seed from a local specimen (very old, which used to fruit every 7 years, that's why I left it growing further and I did the right thing because this specimen does not exist anymore), which (the seed) had germinated in the pot of my australis, as latter had been already a juvenile plant with divided leaves. Then both plants with roots tangled to united root ball had been outplanted together.

[greekpalm 80]

i have both (thanks to you )

but i cannot test it because the australis has two trunks,

Ithought that in general the australis is a faster grower, no ?

[Stevetoad 2,025]

I had both for 3 years. My d.decora is by far faster than my australis. Seems to only be getting faster too

[Mandrew968 1,786]

I grow neither but it seems obvious that decora is one of the fastest, if not out right, the fastest Livistona.

[sonoranfans 2,939]

Climate and irrigation should have an interesting impact. I grew both austrailis and decora in the phoenix desert years back. From small seedlings, the decora was notably faster, both were grown in the same spot in half day sun. In florida, decora are among the fastest fan palms I have. Only bismarckia and sabal domingensis have been as fast or faster. I think if you popped in a mariae, it would possibly outgrow both in your warm Mediterranean climate. the mariae and rigida were tougher in the hot desert sun by far, and even faster than the decora. Interesting that decora outgrows mariae handily in my florida yard... Overall things grow faster in florida, and I can agree that the florida Decora is the fastest livistona I have ever grown.

Edited July 20, 2013 by sonoranfans

[Walter John 220]

I'm growing both here and I gave australis a years head start on one of my decoras, guess what, yep, decora is ahead already. I regard decora as one of the best looking palms too. Faster than Bismarkia in my opinion, there's a real race there, let's continue and see what people think is faster out of those two. Bizzy or Decora ?

[JLeVert 251]

Livistona nitida can certainly handle the cold that you might occasionally get, but will also manage drought. I lost L. australis to a hard freeze, but L. nitida has done well for years. At the Bamboo Farm in Savannah, GA, the L. nitida easily outgrew W. robusta. It is a beautiful palm.

[Phoenikakias 2,018]

I'm growing both here and I gave australis a years head start on one of my decoras, guess what, yep, decora is ahead already. I regard decora as one of the best looking palms too. Faster than Bismarkia in my opinion, there's a real race there, let's continue and see what people think is faster out of those two. Bizzy or Decora ?

It looks like we' re sharing same experience. But you live in an at least subtropical (if not tropical) climate and it happens that I have also during main growing season high temps. I have the impression that high temps with full sun slow down growth speed of australis while they are very promoting for the growth of decora, provided they have ample water supply. It would be interesting to read reports from fellows in places with cooler main growing season. As far as Bismarckia is concerned, I tend to agree with you on the condition that it does not suffer during winter a major set back. But I have to mention that there are some decora specimens (mutation or hybrids or variety?), which are astonishingly fast even compared with bizzie or other normal decora. I mean of meters new trunk growth every year. These specimens are imo less cool and cold tolerant with more reddish tinges.

[gyuseppe 585]

here livistona decora and australis are both fast

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest 292]

I'm growing both here and I gave australis a years head start on one of my decoras, guess what, yep, decora is ahead already. I regard decora as one of the best looking palms too. Faster than Bismarkia in my opinion, there's a real race there, let's continue and see what people think is faster out of those two. Bizzy or Decora ?

It looks like we' re sharing same experience. But you live in an at least subtropical (if not tropical) climate and it happens that I have also during main growing season high temps. I have the impression that high temps with full sun slow down growth speed of australis while they are very promoting for the growth of decora, provided they have ample water supply. It would be interesting to read reports from fellows in places with cooler main growing season. As far as Bismarckia is concerned, I tend to agree with you on the condition that it does not suffer during winter a major set back. But I have to mention that there are some decora specimens (mutation or hybrids or variety?), which are astonishingly fast even compared with bizzie or other normal decora. I mean of meters new trunk growth every year. These specimens are imo less cool and cold tolerant with more reddish tinges.

That's not my experience, I have a cool coastal climate and decora is still way faster than Australis. So hotcor cold has little to do with it. The only livistona that is faster for me is rigida, the one with the red leaves. They're far outpacing even decora.

I honestly don't think livistona really care about temps, they grow just about anywhere. It's a fantastic genus. And they're often way hardier than people give them credit.

[Phoenikakias 2,018]

Now we have two different reports from Axel and Giuseppe! Is there any possibility that they are actually not contradictional to each other? I am thinking whether soil in Axel's place because of its primarily sandy nature contains less moisture, than an australis needs for maximum growth rate.

[gyuseppe 585]

AXEL

That's not my experience, I have a cool coastal climate and decora is still way faster than Australis. So hotcor cold has little to do with it. The only livistona that is faster for me is rigida, the one with the red leaves. They're far outpacing even decora.

I honestly don't think livistona really care about temps, they grow just about anywhere. It's a fantastic genus. And they're often way hardier than people give them credit.

Axel

I have livistona rigida and livistona mariae, also these grow fast in summer,

but in winter,while these 2 stop for the cold

the livistona decora,australis,nitida,chinensis,continue to grow

Edited July 21, 2013 by gyuseppe

[sonoranfans 2,939]

Now we have two different reports from Axel and Giuseppe! Is there any possibility that they are actually not contradictional to each other? I am thinking whether soil in Axel's place because of its primarily sandy nature contains less moisture, than an australis needs for maximum growth rate.

Yes perhaps Axels dry sandy soil has an impact, and austrailis may prefer more moisture than its gets. But I have also noticed that decora grows also with moisture. Of all of these rigida and marie are most drought tolerant, by far. They also tolerate and utilize even more sun exposure. this is why I hypothesized that the rigida and mariae wold grow faster in the hot and dry climate, but not necessarily the cool one.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest 292]

How about summarizing the above, because i can't make any sense of it until i see it summarized:

1) Wal says decora is much faster than australis in subtropical Australia

2) Steve says decora is faster than australis in Mediterranean Csa hot San Diego

3) Gyuseppe says decora and australis are equally fast for him, he is Mediterranean Csa

4) I say decora is faster than australis in Mediterranean Csa/Csb cool Santa Cruz Mountains

In addition, I was saying that l. maria/rigida is fastest for me, but Gyuseppe says it's only during the Summer, he may be right at the latitude he's at, but we don't see that much seasonal variation in temps here, so they grow all year round here.

To provide additional data, my australis is hardly slow, it's just not as fast as decora, that's all. Here are all the species I grow:

- l. nitida (second fastest)

- l. australis (same speed as nitida)

- l. saribus (medium speed)

- l. decora/decipiens (very fast, fastest palm)

- l. mariae (very fast, prone to fungus in wet weather)

- l. rigida (very fast) (Same as mariae?)

- l. chinensis (fast but slow to trunk in shade)

- l. benthamii (fast but slow to trunk in shade)

- l. lanuginosa (medium, slowest of all the livistona I have)

- l. fulva (Fast)

- l. speciosa (Fast)

- l. lorophylla (slow as snails)

- l. carinensis (struggling a lot, worst livistona I have, yellow, unhappy, it's saying "put me out of my misery")

[Stevetoad 2,025]

My decora has smoked my mariea that was bought as a much bigger plant. I would say my australis and mariea cruise at close to the same speed but with mariea being a bit faster.

[Jonathan 70]

Just to throw in my two cents, I would agree that decora is significantly faster than australis in my climate (coolish/dry summers, frosty/wet winters) and are a much tougher plant generally.

I have four decora''s planted in a very exposed, frosty part of my garden, which recieve zero additional water over summer, yet they are easily keeping up with a few nearby irrigated australis, and nitidas.

Having said that, the decoras are not getting anywhere near enough water over summer to achieve their growth potential, though they grow happily all winter even when covered in frost.

The others could use more water too for that matter. My point is that without extra water decora keeps up with irrigated australis. Australis without irrigation will not grow for me, nor die, they just sit still.

They all look good all year round and are probably my favorite genus of palms.

Growth rates of other species I have as seedlings in the poly tunnel are: mariae, very fast; australis (var. Eungella) medium; decora, medium; drudei, slow; fulva, slow; saribus, slow; mulleri, almost not growing at all!

Cheers,

Jonathan

[Jonathan 70]

By the way Axel, John Dowe (Australian Palms, 2010) places rigida firmly in its own species, with subtle morphological differences from mariae including fruit size, leaf size and shape, not to mention 1000kms of desert!

Cheers,

Jonathan

[Phoenikakias 2,018]

Here are the two spss growing side by side and antagonizing each other. Australis seems to stay still a bit ahead regarding trunk/stem height (but I water awfully a lot plus I added some water retention gel to the soil, which benefits both but mostly the australis) but decora is catching up fast and has already surpassed australis in leaves size.

[tank 415]

I have both, L. decora has been a much faster grower for me.

[gyuseppe 585]

drudei very fast, but very sensitive to frost!

livistona muelleri very slow

lanuginosa very fast

saribus average growth

fulva very fast

but as mentioned before,here in winter they stop from me

[gyuseppe 585]

Growth rates of other species I have as seedlings in the poly tunnel are: mariae, very fast; australis (var. Eungella) medium; decora, medium; drudei, slow; fulva, slow; saribus, slow; mulleri, almost not growing at all!

Cheers,

Jonathan

Hello Jonathan

australis (var. Eungella) and drudei,,I got them from you ! you send to me!

nice to hear that the seeds of livistona that I sent to you are doing well

Jonathan I had also sent you some seeds phoenix roebelenii hybrid,but then have sprouted?

[Phoenikakias 2,018]

Just to throw in my two cents, I would agree that decora is significantly faster than australis in my climate (coolish/dry summers, frosty/wet winters) and are a much tougher plant generally.

I have four decora''s planted in a very exposed, frosty part of my garden, which recieve zero additional water over summer, yet they are easily keeping up with a few nearby irrigated australis, and nitidas.

Having said that, the decoras are not getting anywhere near enough water over summer to achieve their growth potential, though they grow happily all winter even when covered in frost.

The others could use more water too for that matter. My point is that without extra water decora keeps up with irrigated australis. Australis without irrigation will not grow for me, nor die, they just sit still.

They all look good all year round and are probably my favorite genus of palms.

Growth rates of other species I have as seedlings in the poly tunnel are: mariae, very fast; australis (var. Eungella) medium; decora, medium; drudei, slow; fulva, slow; saribus, slow; mulleri, almost not growing at all!

Cheers,

Jonathan

In my place an australis without irrigation in summer would probably kick the bucket (if not the same year but but very probably the next one)!

[sonoranfans 2,939]

in Arizona, both australis and to a lesser extent decora were a bit sun tender and too hot a sun exposure probably stunted them in growth. I saw an austrailis in western arizona sun at a nearby nursery, 12' overall, but planted in a bunch of palms. It didn't look happy in spite of being watered frequently, it was a very pale olive color. Mariae and rigida were much more sun hardy in the heat, they did well in the hottest western sun. I've seen a well cared for AZ mariae on deep watering drip irrigation go from 4"x4"x10" strap leaf seedling to 10' overall in 30 months in Arizona heat, almost as fast as a washie robusta. Speed depends a lot on cultural requirements, and those mariae and rigida want lots of hot sun. My florida decora went from a 5 gallon size at ~30" tall to about 9' overall in two years. It probably doesn't get as much water as it wants as its in an extra sandy spot, but it also gets only 4-5 hrs of direct sun. I'm thinking it would be even faster in full florida sun, 7-8hrs a day. My little florida mariae, planted out as a 1 gallon is starting to come back strong after getting too wet and losing some foliage. You can tell it wants more sun, but it will have to put on some height to grow over the 5' chamaerops multi about 5' to its west. My L. carinensis in AZ was much happier than the florida one, which is very slow and not happy. Carinensis looks like the most desert adapted of the livistona I've tried. Hours of sun exposure, water, soil, fertilizer, and humidity all factor in, and these livistonas have their preferences.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest 292]

By the way Axel, John Dowe (Australian Palms, 2010) places rigida firmly in its own species, with subtle morphological differences from mariae including fruit size, leaf size and shape, not to mention 1000kms of desert!

Cheers,

Jonathan

Well, I have one labeled mariae, one labeled rigida and one labeled mariae/rigida. I guess that ought to have all the bases covered. I planted them as a trio, I figured they would be happy together. They're at significant different size too. They're growing in pretty dry soil.

[Jonathan 70]

Growth rates of other species I have as seedlings in the poly tunnel are: mariae, very fast; australis (var. Eungella) medium; decora, medium; drudei, slow; fulva, slow; saribus, slow; mulleri, almost not growing at all!

Cheers,

Jonathan

Hello Jonathan

australis (var. Eungella) and drudei,,I got them from you ! you send to me!

nice to hear that the seeds of livistona that I sent to you are doing well

Jonathan I had also sent you some seeds phoenix roebelenii hybrid,but then have sprouted?

Hi Giuseppe,

Nice to hear from you again! The Livistona mariae you sent me are doing really well, I hope to start planting them out this spring.

I dont think that the Phoenix roebelenii hybrid seeds ever made it to me, they might have been taken by customs, which is pretty common in Australia.

Cheers,

Jonathan

[Jonathan 70]

By the way Axel, John Dowe (Australian Palms, 2010) places rigida firmly in its own species, with subtle morphological differences from mariae including fruit size, leaf size and shape, not to mention 1000kms of desert!

Cheers,

Jonathan

Well, I have one labeled mariae, one labeled rigida and one labeled mariae/rigida. I guess that ought to have all the bases covered. I planted them as a trio, I figured they would be happy together. They're at significant different size too. They're growing in pretty dry soil.

Sounds like you do have all bases covered Axel, should make for an interesting group in a few years time.

I'm hoping I can get my mariae's to tap into the water table down here (about 2m below ground level), which should ensure good growth rates...unfortunately it'll probably take 20 years to get to that point!

Cheers,

Jonathan

[gyuseppe 585]

By the way Axel, John Dowe (Australian Palms, 2010) places rigida firmly in its own species, with subtle morphological differences from mariae including fruit size, leaf size and shape, not to mention 1000kms of desert!

Cheers,

Jonathan

Well, I have one labeled mariae, one labeled rigida and one labeled mariae/rigida. I guess that ought to have all the bases covered. I planted them as a trio, I figured they would be happy together. They're at significant different size too. They're growing in pretty dry soil.

Sounds like you do have all bases covered Axel, should make for an interesting group in a few years time.

I'm hoping I can get my mariae's to tap into the water table down here (about 2m below ground level), which should ensure good growth rates...unfortunately it'll probably take 20 years to get to that point!

Cheers,

Jonathan

yes I remember now! !!!

[pfancy 20]

They both do great for me, the more sun the better. All unprotected in the Big Chill this last winter, zero burn.

Decora in all day sun.

Australis stretching for the sun. 6' w 1' of trunk

Australis frond almost 360*

Double decora in too much shade. These were planted before the other and are maybe half the size.

On a side note L. Muelleri is supposed to be a dwarf but,has grown almost as fast as the others. It has very cool 360* fronds that are not costapalmate like the others.

Edited July 27, 2013 by pfancy

[sonoranfans 2,939]

Livisona decora in shade grows elongated for me in florida, and quite fast. This one sees only 3 hrs direct sun a day with several live oaks and my house to the west. It was a seriously rootbound 5 gallon in spring 2011 when I decided I needed more cold hardy canopy palms. For scale the fence is a 7' tall fence . I have another in more sun planted at the same time that is more compact,a couple feet shorter but also huge. These decora look like they may be as fast or faster than my bismarckia, more time will tell. These look like a great fast canopy palm for me.

Edited July 27, 2013 by sonoranfans

[Phoenikakias 2,018]

This picture had been taken between 1999 and 2000. Now same plant (decora) has several meters of clear trunk and fruits already for the third time.

[sonoranfans 2,939]

Livisona decora in shade grows elongated for me in florida, and quite fast. This one sees only 3 hrs direct sun a day with several live oaks and my house to the west. It was a seriously rootbound 5 gallon in spring 2011 when I decided I needed more cold hardy canopy palms. For scale the fence is a 7' tall fence . I have another in more sun planted at the same time that is more compact,a couple feet shorter but also huge. These decora look like they may be as fast or faster than my bismarckia, more time will tell. These look like a great fast canopy palm for me.

Here is the one that is in more sun, same overgrown 5 gallon size spring 2011. it was initially in more shade, then I cut down and thinned some deciduous trees. You can see how the petioles of the newer leaves are shortened. this one is growing more compact now. this palm may get 5-6 hrs of direct sun in morning to perhaps 2pm. It has a large maple(which was thinned) and magnolia grandiflora to its west.

Edited July 27, 2013 by sonoranfans

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest 292]

They both do great for me, the more sun the better. All unprotected in the Big Chill this last winter, zero burn.

image.jpg

Decora in all day sun.

image.jpg

Australis stretching for the sun. 6' w 1' of trunk

image.jpg

Australis frond almost 360*

image.jpg

Double decora in too much shade. These were planted before the other and are maybe half the size.

On a side note L. Muelleri is supposed to be a dwarf but,has grown almost as fast as the others. It has very cool 360* fronds that are not costapalmate like the others.

image.jpg

Your livistona look fantastic. I am intrigued by the L. Muelleri, it looks very interesting. I didn't' know they have such open leaves. It looks very unique. Where did you get it?

[Walter John 220]

They both do great for me, the more sun the better. All unprotected in the Big Chill this last winter, zero burn.

image.jpg

Decora in all day sun.

image.jpg

Australis stretching for the sun. 6' w 1' of trunk

image.jpg

Australis frond almost 360*

image.jpg

Double decora in too much shade. These were planted before the other and are maybe half the size.

On a side note L. Muelleri is supposed to be a dwarf but,has grown almost as fast as the others. It has very cool 360* fronds that are not costapalmate like the others.

image.jpg

Your livistona look fantastic. I am intrigued by the L. Muelleri, it looks very interesting. I didn't' know they have such open leaves. It looks very unique. Where did you get it?

Doesn't look like muelleri to me, should be more palmate still, besides, these palms are quite slow. I could be wrong, I'm not the best ID man.

[pfancy 20]

The muelleri was grown from seed here in the VOTS. Here r some more pix. I could b wrong on the id but, that's how it came to me

Edited July 28, 2013 by pfancy

[Mandrew968 1,786]

I'm growing both here and I gave australis a years head start on one of my decoras, guess what, yep, decora is ahead already. I regard decora as one of the best looking palms too. Faster than Bismarkia in my opinion, there's a real race there, let's continue and see what people think is faster out of those two. Bizzy or Decora ?

Wal, I don't have decora, but my Bizzy and Sabal causiarum are racing neck and neck! Sabal is actually winning!

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest 292]

I'm growing both here and I gave australis a years head start on one of my decoras, guess what, yep, decora is ahead already. I regard decora as one of the best looking palms too. Faster than Bismarkia in my opinion, there's a real race there, let's continue and see what people think is faster out of those two. Bizzy or Decora ?

Wal, I don't have decora, but my Bizzy and Sabal causiarum are racing neck and neck! Sabal is actually winning!

Interesting, even in Florida heat bismarckia is slightly slower. I definitely get more growth on my freshly planted sabal bermudana than bismarckia, but I am pretty sure I don't get enough heat here for bismarckia to grow real fast anyway. Both are new plantings so perhaps the bismarckia still has the potential to speed up.

[sonoranfans 2,939]

I'm growing both here and I gave australis a years head start on one of my decoras, guess what, yep, decora is ahead already. I regard decora as one of the best looking palms too. Faster than Bismarkia in my opinion, there's a real race there, let's continue and see what people think is faster out of those two. Bizzy or Decora ?

Wal, I don't have decora, but my Bizzy and Sabal causiarum are racing neck and neck! Sabal is actually winning!

Interesting, even in Florida heat bismarckia is slightly slower. I definitely get more growth on my freshly planted sabal bermudana than bismarckia, but I am pretty sure I don't get enough heat here for bismarckia to grow real fast anyway. Both are new plantings so perhaps the bismarckia still has the potential to speed up.

I don't agree with this... lets have a shootout, my bizzie against andrews bizzie... or causiarum. Each of us has different garden conditions and since mine grows faster in heat, I suspect soil differences. My soil will drain better than just about any miami yard so I will be able to grow bigger roots in a bizzie. Bizzies will not grow roots to depths in continually standing water. I suspect the wet season has more to do with slower growth if drainage is not good. Not sure about causiarum, it could be that mine didnt get enough water, but my domingensis is a rocket with limited irrigation in mostly sand. Copernicias are harder to grow in my sandy soil, they look great in Miami area. The soil amendment I performed on my copernicias was very different than the bizzie. I even dug up clay elsewhere to add into my copernicia root zones to reduce drainage. All florida is not the same... Edited July 28, 2013 by sonoranfans

[Phoenikakias 2,018]

This picture had been taken between 1999 and 2000. Now same plant (decora) has several meters of clear trunk and fruits already for the third time.

my cold frame livistona decipiens.gif

.. and this is how it looks landcape today: