any issue using Round-up right near palms ?

[trioderob]

I am redoing a lawn and need to kill off the old grass ( plus weeds and crabgrass)

any special problems /issue using Round-up ?

how close to the trunk of the palms before you risk damage or death to the plant ?

what if you spray right up to the trunk ?

Edited June 5, 2013 by trioderob

[Peter G]

I've been trying to kill my Washie with it.

No luck!

[DoomsDave]

Roundup is absorbed through green tissues.

That means that bark and brown stems won't take it up.

That said, some species (including some Dypsis) are sensitive. If you're worried, wrap a protective covering over a stem. Certainly a green stem, or one just starting to turn brown.

It won't go through the roots, though, so it works well to get rid of weeds and grasses near palm trunks.

Just be careful, and if you feel paranoid, protect. If you hit a dangling palm leaf, wash immediately with some water. (I carry a spray bottle.)

Hope this helps.

[Perito]

There was an article in 'Palms' a few years back suggesting that herbicides such as Round-up and others with 2-4D were suspected as a possible cause of Leaning Crown Syndrome (when used close to the tree). It could be that residues would be washed into the root system at a later date. I would definately protect the trunks and use minimal amounts close up.

[sonoranfans]

glycophosphates(as in roundup) are known to sequester micronutrients like Fe Mg, Mn, so Id use the roundup carefully if you cant pull the weeds. They also take quite a while to biodegrade. If you use it, watch your palms for signs of micronutrient deficiency.

http://www.iuss.org/19th WCSS/Symposium/pdf/1807.pdf

exerpt:

"Non Target Effects of Glyphosate

There is a growing body of anecdotal information and preliminary research that suggests long term and

repeated use of glyphosate in both glyphosate tolerant cropping systems and in other agricultural applications

is changing the soil microbial community, worldwide. This is manifesting various undesirable effects on

crops that have included stimulation of diseases and nutrient deficiencies (International Conference

Symposium: Mineral nutrition and disease problems in modern agriculture: Threats to sustainability,

Informações Agronômicas 119, 2007). There is evidence that glyphosate causes nutrient deficiency on Fe,

Ca, Mg (Carmak 2007), Ni (Wood 2007), and Mn (Huber 2007). Glyphosate kills plants by making it

susceptible to fungal diseases caused by Fusarium and Pythium (Johal and Rahe 1990). A four year study in

Canada showed that glyphosate-treated wheat had higher levels of Fusarium head blight (a toxic fungal

disease) than wheat fields where no glyphosate had been applied (Fernandez et al. 2007)."

So I would say roundup shouldn't be used carelessly. I don't use it anymore, except as a last resort, after reading the research. You can kill weeds by covering them with a weedmat temporarily(several months.

Edited June 5, 2013 by sonoranfans

[monkeyranch]

And that's just what it does to plant physiology and soil microbiology. Many disease and weeds also favor "dead soil", compounding the problem, for which the promoted solution is to use more chemicals. Sort of a domino effect for chemical business profits.

I'm not trying to start a big debate but just show a few more studies revealing the side effects of this product.

Here's an article about the explosion of birth defects in S. America when they begin glyphosate.

And another one linking it to Parkinson's and cancer, not real pleasant diseases.

And another article with feedback from farmers where Roundup has been referred to as a "slowly unfolding train wreck".

Worst of all, the farm workers who harvest your food and need employment don't have much of a choice about what they are exposed to. The Joaquin Valley has astronomically high respiratory and endocrine illness, and cancer rates. It is highest among field workers with many contracting these conditions in their 30s and 40s. Ever see how many kids on the playground in Fresno have asthma inhalers? Coincidence?

Roundup's continual mention on this forum could almost be considered to be informal advertising for a brand name product. I don't think Monsanto trolls dwell on palmtalk but, just the same, we have been encouraged to not cite Big Box store names by the guidelines. At the least the product should be referred to by its generic name, glyphosate, rather than promote it's brand name.

These chemicals are unnecessary and you just end up solving one problem, weeds, and replacing it with bigger problems, human health effects or ecological damage. It's not about better, more productive farming but about inserting exclusively patented (and thus litigious) products into every process until they "own" the methods for agriculture.

Corporate patents and "intellectual property" are beginning to suffocate independence and creativity, whether it's farming, computing, artistic, or societal terrain. They just want to use their lawyers put a yoke on the working people and make us pull their load for them.

One day some attorney may suggest his client has an historical diagram on how to tie a shoe. Maybe he's got a case and your going to owe him royalties every morning you put on your shoes. Maybe he won't prevail but your gonna spend a lot of money fighting off the lawsuit, or you can capitulate. Or get some slip-on shoes.

I don't use any synthetic pesticides or chemical fertilizers and just consider using solely organic methods as a part of the learning process and challenge of gardening.

I hope you will all learn more about these issues for yourselves and ask "is this really necessary to have a nice garden?"

[JEFF IN MODESTO]

If you feel better we can use the generic term "Glyphosate"

This product has been used for 40 years without any proof that it is a health hazard to anyone.

Sure you can point to a few extremist articles that try to scare people away from the product, I wonder if these people aren't just competing companies .

Looking back to the 1970's , life expectancies and health statistics of Mexican emigrant field workers has improved 25 percent .

Can we conclude from this raw dated that since this is when round up began being used as the number one herbicide, that its a magic elixir that saves lives... No! But that is the crazy logic that some of these articles present.

[trioderob]

lets keep this civil and watch what you say.

would not want to get the forum or any member sued by a company that might believe that a disparaging statement had been made against them.

I joke not.

[Xerarch]

It seems to me that the problems with the product that shall not be named are mostly associated with repeated and long term use. I personally wouldn't worry about it if you need to get rid of an existing lawn as this post was originally intended, it will kill the existing lawn down to the root, perhaps might need two applications for this. If you have reservations about continued use of the product, by all means don't use it any more than you need and implement whatever practices you want to reduce weeds in the landscape.

I think it's a satisfactory way to accomplish the stated goal of this thread and for the most part, as stated in previous posts, don't worry if you get some on a palm trunk that does not have any green tissue. If you get some overspray onto a trunk and are worried about it, just rinse it off, no big deal.

[sonoranfans]

If you feel better we can use the generic term "Glyphosate"

This product has been used for 40 years without any proof that it is a health hazard to anyone.

Sure you can point to a few extremist articles that try to scare people away from the product, I wonder if these people aren't just competing companies .

Looking back to the 1970's , life expectancies and health statistics of Mexican emigrant field workers has improved 25 percent .

Can we conclude from this raw dated that since this is when round up began being used as the number one herbicide, that its a magic elixir that saves lives... No! But that is the crazy logic that some of these articles present.

Agreed, most of the studies noted on birth defects etc are flawed by the concurrent use of pesticides and other possible influencing agents. Pesticides are known to attack animal nerve systems and are more likely related to the asthma issues in many areas. No one is putting research money into the study of the collateral damage in the use of glyphosphates because there is no financial interest, no benefit. Ergo the studies are flawed as they are not properly funded and probably wont be for years.

That being said, acetaminophen(Tylenol) was used for 40 years before the FDA FINALLY recognized that it(and not alcohol) is the #1 cause of liver damage in the USA. The problem with these kinds of studies is that there is no financial interest or financier for proper implementation of scientifically valid studies. And there are companies that make a lot of money that would be adamantly opposed to any such revelation, were there to be a properly conducted studies. In many cases, experiments are being conducted all the time, on us, and only the future will tell the results. The studies on sequestration of micronutrients and soil microbial damage HAVE BEEN properly conducted and the results are scientifically valid as soil samples and plant tissue samples were used in th eproper framework for a valid study.

[JEFF IN MODESTO]

All that I can say is... it works for me ! About the only advice that I would give to anybody... buy the generic... its 1/4 the price and works the same... oh... and don't spray it on the green trunks of your palms... it will damage it.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Jeff in Modesto

[Gtlevine]

I've used Round-up all year for the past 16 years and my palms look great. My anecdotal evidense suggests round-up is the most awesome chemical ever created. Gary

[MattyB]

I like the oily taste of it

[richnorm]

Well said Tom and monkeyranch.

Edited June 7, 2013 by richnorm

[JEFF IN MODESTO]

I've used Round-up all year for the past 16 years and my palms look great. My anecdotal evidense suggests round-up is the most awesome chemical ever created.

Gary

I agree!

[JEFF IN MODESTO]

I like the oily taste of it

I find it kinda salty, top off an ice cold Bloody Mary with it!

Lol

[empireo22]

Vinegar is a safe alternative to roundup it is cheap and works fast.

[sonoranfans]

There was a recent discussion about how a bunch of gardens in socal come out of winter all yellowish/green. Doesn't happen to my florida garden, the apparent nutrient deficiency, ever since I discontinued glyphosphate 2 years ago. Is this anecdotal evidence that micros are being sequestered in these gardens until you override the capacity with more fert as it gets warm? Perhaps anecdotal evidence isn't so great. Maybe its some other reason. Bottom line is you can always over ride the capacity of glyphosphate to sequester micros with more fertilizer. As far as the health issues, as I have said nothing legit there, its a fools errand to try to assess the effects of glyphosphates in the presence of pesticides with neurotoxin properties. But if you want to drink it, be my guest, drink the whole bottle and let us know how it feels.

Edited June 7, 2013 by sonoranfans

[empireo22]

But if you want to drink it, be my guest, drink the whole bottle and let us know how it feels.

Good Idea! That way when you pee on your palms you can fertilize and kill weeds at the same time. A 2-n-1!

[KrisKupsch]

Never had a problem if you use it carefully. Established acres of forest by initially killing grasses which are very taxing on young plants, much less so than soft weeds, that can be brushcut or pulled.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Roundup sucks for many reasons, Monsanto being the biggest reason, but not the least of which is that it doesn't work worth crap except on the weakest weeds. Glyphosate itself is probably not that harmful but it's all the other crap in there that are nasty. Grass doesn't respond at all, comes right back. Same with blackberries, pretty much anything for what you could really use roundup for it doesn't work very well. It won't get rid of your lawn other than temporarily making it go brown.

Gary wood sprayed all of his potted palms with roundup, they grow just fine, so I seriously doubt you could harm any decent solid palm, but anything smaller than a 5g size I would avoid hitting with roundup. And Gary's palms still had weeds in them.

Bottom line: save your money, just weed whack the lawn down to the roots and re-seed it, works like a charm and will actually be more effective than roundup. I've seen many landscapers in Southern California switch out the Summer drought tolerant crab grass with Winter rye grass that way, and back the other way. Any weed that roundup could actually kill would get killed by such weedwacking, and any weed that the weedwacking can't kill would not get killed by roundup either.

[JEFF IN MODESTO]

Roundup sucks for many reasons, Monsanto being the biggest reason, but not the least of which is that it doesn't work worth crap except on the weakest weeds. Glyphosate itself is probably not that harmful but it's all the other crap in there that are nasty. Grass doesn't respond at all, comes right back. Same with blackberries, pretty much anything for what you could really use roundup for it doesn't work very well. It won't get rid of your lawn other than temporarily making it go brown.

Gary wood sprayed all of his potted palms with roundup, they grow just fine, so I seriously doubt you could harm any decent solid palm, but anything smaller than a 5g size I would avoid hitting with roundup. And Gary's palms still had weeds in them.

Bottom line: save your money, just weed whack the lawn down to the roots and re-seed it, works like a charm and will actually be more effective than roundup. I've seen many landscapers in Southern California switch out the Summer drought tolerant crab grass with Winter rye grass that way, and back the other way. Any weed that roundup could actually kill would get killed by such weedwacking, and any weed that the weedwacking can't kill would not get killed by roundup either.

Like I said, it works for me and it kills everything that I have ever tried using it on.... and didn't kill anything that I didn't wanted it to.

I understand the Monsanto issue, but I don't think generic Glyphosate is made by them anyway.

I have heard it is selective killer and vines are one of those things a person might have to use some additional fire power on.

Jeff

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Roundup sucks for many reasons, Monsanto being the biggest reason, but not the least of which is that it doesn't work worth crap except on the weakest weeds. Glyphosate itself is probably not that harmful but it's all the other crap in there that are nasty. Grass doesn't respond at all, comes right back. Same with blackberries, pretty much anything for what you could really use roundup for it doesn't work very well. It won't get rid of your lawn other than temporarily making it go brown.

Gary wood sprayed all of his potted palms with roundup, they grow just fine, so I seriously doubt you could harm any decent solid palm, but anything smaller than a 5g size I would avoid hitting with roundup. And Gary's palms still had weeds in them.

Bottom line: save your money, just weed whack the lawn down to the roots and re-seed it, works like a charm and will actually be more effective than roundup. I've seen many landscapers in Southern California switch out the Summer drought tolerant crab grass with Winter rye grass that way, and back the other way. Any weed that roundup could actually kill would get killed by such weedwacking, and any weed that the weedwacking can't kill would not get killed by roundup either.

Like I said, it works for me and it kills everything that I have ever tried using it on.... and didn't kill anything that I didn't wanted it to.

I understand the Monsanto issue, but I don't think generic Glyphosate is made by them anyway.

I have heard it is selective killer and vines are one of those things a person might have to use some additional fire power on.

Jeff

Jeff, I've seen your garden, and for the kind of weeds you have, glycophosphate is effective. For the kind of weeds where I would love to have something like roundup, roundup is completely ineffective. That's pretty much anything with a decent root system like wild sweet peas, blackberry vines, crab grass and so on. I have unwanted crab grass on one side of the driveway, no amount of roundup has worked. Same with the weeds. The weeds I can pull easily roundup also works on. But weeding is cheaper and is good for your health.

I think you could even spray a more diluted form of roundup on the lawn and it would not touch the grass but kill unwanted weeds.

For the sakes of this thread, I'd say it's safe to conclude roundup is not an effective way to remove a lawn.

[LJG]

Roundup sucks for many reasons, Monsanto being the biggest reason, but not the least of which is that it doesn't work worth crap except on the weakest weeds. Glyphosate itself is probably not that harmful but it's all the other crap in there that are nasty. Grass doesn't respond at all, comes right back. Same with blackberries, pretty much anything for what you could really use roundup for it doesn't work very well. It won't get rid of your lawn other than temporarily making it go brown.

Gary wood sprayed all of his potted palms with roundup, they grow just fine, so I seriously doubt you could harm any decent solid palm, but anything smaller than a 5g size I would avoid hitting with roundup. And Gary's palms still had weeds in them.

Bottom line: save your money, just weed whack the lawn down to the roots and re-seed it, works like a charm and will actually be more effective than roundup. I've seen many landscapers in Southern California switch out the Summer drought tolerant crab grass with Winter rye grass that way, and back the other way. Any weed that roundup could actually kill would get killed by such weedwacking, and any weed that the weedwacking can't kill would not get killed by roundup either.

Like I said, it works for me and it kills everything that I have ever tried using it on.... and didn't kill anything that I didn't wanted it to.

I understand the Monsanto issue, but I don't think generic Glyphosate is made by them anyway.

I have heard it is selective killer and vines are one of those things a person might have to use some additional fire power on.

Jeff

Jeff, I've seen your garden, and for the kind of weeds you have, glycophosphate is effective. For the kind of weeds where I would love to have something like roundup, roundup is completely ineffective. That's pretty much anything with a decent root system like wild sweet peas, blackberry vines, crab grass and so on. I have unwanted crab grass on one side of the driveway, no amount of roundup has worked. Same with the weeds. The weeds I can pull easily roundup also works on. But weeding is cheaper and is good for your health.

I think you could even spray a more diluted form of roundup on the lawn and it would not touch the grass but kill unwanted weeds.

For the sakes of this thread, I'd say it's safe to conclude roundup is not an effective way to remove a lawn.

This is surprising. There is not a weed, grass or plant in my garden that I have not been able to kill with Round Up. For established ivy and crab grass I mix it with an additional surfactant. Some plants like Washingtonia seedlings take two spraying a a few days apart.

[JEFF IN MODESTO]

Roundup sucks for many reasons, Monsanto being the biggest reason, but not the least of which is that it doesn't work worth crap except on the weakest weeds. Glyphosate itself is probably not that harmful but it's all the other crap in there that are nasty. Grass doesn't respond at all, comes right back. Same with blackberries, pretty much anything for what you could really use roundup for it doesn't work very well. It won't get rid of your lawn other than temporarily making it go brown.

Gary wood sprayed all of his potted palms with roundup, they grow just fine, so I seriously doubt you could harm any decent solid palm, but anything smaller than a 5g size I would avoid hitting with roundup. And Gary's palms still had weeds in them.

Bottom line: save your money, just weed whack the lawn down to the roots and re-seed it, works like a charm and will actually be more effective than roundup. I've seen many landscapers in Southern California switch out the Summer drought tolerant crab grass with Winter rye grass that way, and back the other way. Any weed that roundup could actually kill would get killed by such weedwacking, and any weed that the weedwacking can't kill would not get killed by roundup either.

Like I said, it works for me and it kills everything that I have ever tried using it on.... and didn't kill anything that I didn't wanted it to.

I understand the Monsanto issue, but I don't think generic Glyphosate is made by them anyway.

I have heard it is selective killer and vines are one of those things a person might have to use some additional fire power on.

Jeff

Jeff, I've seen your garden, and for the kind of weeds you have, glycophosphate is effective. For the kind of weeds where I would love to have something like roundup, roundup is completely ineffective. That's pretty much anything with a decent root system like wild sweet peas, blackberry vines, crab grass and so on. I have unwanted crab grass on one side of the driveway, no amount of roundup has worked. Same with the weeds. The weeds I can pull easily roundup also works on. But weeding is cheaper and is good for your health.

I think you could even spray a more diluted form of roundup on the lawn and it would not touch the grass but kill unwanted weeds.

For the sakes of this thread, I'd say it's safe to conclude roundup is not an effective way to remove a lawn.

Axel,

Hmmm, Over the years I have used it many times to kill lawns full of Bermuda grass.

I'd put a little dish soap and sulphate of ammonia in the mix... you get results by the next day.

Whats important is that what you are trying to kill isn't drought stressed.

I used to spray once or twice a season under my macadamia nut tree as there were always fallen nuts sprouting.

One shot all dead.

[mike in kurtistown]

Here on Big Island of Hawaii, people like me with acreage and fruit growers with large operations couldn't survive without glyphosate, and a couple other chemicals as well, even when they detest the companies making them. I quickly found that there are things killed quickly by glyphosate, other things that die gradually over time, and still other noxious invasive weeds that just laugh at it. Some of the weed trees (albizia, gunpowder) die quickly, melochia dies slowly, and cecropia and strawberry guava are unaffected. Some of the big grasses keel over immediately, others take weeks. Clidemia and miconia laugh at it. I have never seen a palm or cycad harmed by it. I once sprayed a ti plant top to bottom with it accidentally, but it never even stopped growing. I do use it carefully around the base of palms, am still watching to see if there are any detectable ill effects.