Jump to content
Brahea Axel

B. Alfredii under-rated

Recommended Posts

Pedro 65

Many still are confused on what is Alfredii and what is Madagascariensis...below pics are Madagascariensis..

Alfredii doesn't have the beautiful yellow/ cream rachis and its leaf colour is quite glaucous blue/green.

Alfredii absolutely loves the climate at the Sydney Botanic Gardens and the specimen I saw is getting quite a size. ( Colin, Daryl or Wal do you have a pic to show from SBG ? )

Heres a pic of Madagascariensis here showing the vivid yellow/ cream and very very upright growth,( 10 ltr bucket and dog for scale) ... The Alfredii I saw at SBG had plenty of leaves laying near flat and had the very glaucous blue green colour, people learn through picture posts so lets see everyones Alfredii..sorry can't show mine coz I don't have any. :) Pete

I'm curious why you don't have alfredii Pete. Is it that they are just too similar so you didn't want to use the planting space? Easiest way to tell young alfredii is to look for purple in the petiole, at least that holds true in our climate.

Rich, I have acres of free space :) and Madagascariensis is the best looking :) When I saw Alfredii at SBG I couldn't believe the tag, and was glad I didn't have any :) Pics 32 and 35 certainly are the old windows, show your Alfredii Axel, Pics are better to view than blah blah :) Alfredii doesn't have the yellow rachis its pretty much blue/grey/green all over and twisted :) Ive said enough blah blah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
LJG

The picture above is incorrect. That is the "no windows" form, not B. alfredii. It should be corrected on palmpedia.

Here was some info I posted a few years ago that might be helpful.

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/29904-beccariophoenix-breakdown/?hl=breakdown

Thanks Matt. Great reference for Axel to catch up on.

Axel, from my iPhone I can tell this photo is not Alfredii either by the upright growth and shorter terminal leaflet length.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dypsisdean

Axel - I think you are correct in that there was initially confusion IDing this plant, and many were misidentified early on - either innocently or unfortunately on purpose to help move product. So there are several larger palms around that people are saying is B. alfredii that IMO are not. Your first photo is an example.

The one you posted from Palmpedia I think could possibly be the real deal, but I am no where near certain. I think it looks "too" upright to Len due to what could be less than optimal growing conditions and excess trimming of the older fronds. The petioles and foliage are so dark and the petioles do not have any yellow that I always see in B. mad. But I hate to disagree with Matty, because he has a better eye than I do. So again, and only IMO, I think anything the size (or larger) than the Palmpeda pic should be considered suspect. I remember some seed that came in at very first that was supposed to be B. alf that I think might not be. So I have not seen a large B. alf that I can be certain is the real deal.

IMO these are more easily IDed as smaller plants (5 gal). Why don't you post a pic or two of yours to see if we can help. Unless you have seen many of these in many different situations you may not have what you think you have.

Here are some pics of my B. mad and B. alf. I don't have a B. win - but it is easily IDed as a young plant and is much different than these two when this size or smaller. And I think the differences between these two can be easily seen here. So maybe this will help some with sorting this out - because I also agree with you that some of the reporting on the cold hardiness of this species could be in error due to mistaken identity.

post-11-0-17272000-1365801511_thumb.jpg

post-11-0-79889400-1365801514_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Brahea Axel

Many still are confused on what is Alfredii and what is Madagascariensis...below pics are Madagascariensis..

Alfredii doesn't have the beautiful yellow/ cream rachis and its leaf colour is quite glaucous blue/green.

Alfredii absolutely loves the climate at the Sydney Botanic Gardens and the specimen I saw is getting quite a size. ( Colin, Daryl or Wal do you have a pic to show from SBG ? )

Heres a pic of Madagascariensis here showing the vivid yellow/ cream and very very upright growth,( 10 ltr bucket and dog for scale) ... The Alfredii I saw at SBG had plenty of leaves laying near flat and had the very glaucous blue green colour, people learn through picture posts so lets see everyones Alfredii..sorry can't show mine coz I don't have any. :) Pete

I'm curious why you don't have alfredii Pete. Is it that they are just too similar so you didn't want to use the planting space? Easiest way to tell young alfredii is to look for purple in the petiole, at least that holds true in our climate.

Rich, I have acres of free space :) and Madagascariensis is the best looking :) When I saw Alfredii at SBG I couldn't believe the tag, and was glad I didn't have any :) Pics 32 and 35 certainly are the old windows, show your Alfredii Axel, Pics are better to view than blah blah :) Alfredii doesn't have the yellow rachis its pretty much blue/grey/green all over and twisted :) Ive said enough blah blah

Pedro, my initial preference for alfredii is obviously a mistaken identity. I get why you picked what you picked. My enthusiasm for alfredii is obviously wrongly encouraged by mis-identified "Windows" that pose as Alfredii. I think I got it straight now, but still not sure.

So are there four species? Madagascariensis, windows, 'no windows' and alfredii?

here are the photos of all three of the supposedly Alfredii seedlings I have, which all show yellowing, but they did get thrown into full sun from shade greenhouse conditions. The best looking one is actually from a heated greenhouse. The other two survived 27F without a trace of damage in Riverside while nearby 1g bismarck palms got trashed.

713C904C-FEF1-4AC2-9BAA-FC115EE0342E-696

001BF07A-9AC7-431B-A8E4-E69CCB663126-696

93B6DC4D-32E5-4709-8104-51687058DF1C-696

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
LJG

Axel - I think you are correct in that there was initially confusion IDing this plant, and many were misidentified early on - either innocently or unfortunately on purpose to help move product. So there are several larger palms around that people are saying is B. alfredii that IMO are not. Your first photo is an example.

The one you posted from Palmpedia I think could possibly be the real deal, but I am no where near certain. I think it looks "too" upright due to what could be less than optimal growing conditions and excess trimming of the older frond. Again, and only IMO, I think anything larger than the Palmpeda pic should be considered suspect. I remember some seed that came in at very first that was supposed to be B. alf that I think might not be.

IMO these are more easily IDed as smaller plants (5 gal). Why don't you post a pic or two of yours to see if we can help. Unless you have seen many of these in many different situations you may not have what you think you have.

Here are some pics of my B. mad and B. alf. I don't have a B. win - but it is easily IDed as a young plant and is much different than these two when small. And I think the differences between these two can be easily seen here. So maybe this will help some with sorting this out - because I also agree with you that some of the reporting on the cold hardiness of this species could be in error due to mistaken identity.

Dean, two points. 1) Someone falsely labeling a palm because it was grown as that palm or bought as it is one thing. Some guy making a website that incorrectly IDs someone else's plant is another. Axel posted two different photos of two different palms and each was "Windows". I guarantee the owners of these two plants know it is Windows form. Some website guy created the confusion not the seed dealer or seller. Hope that makes sense. 2) I am surprised you think that palm could be Alfredii after you just posted your two photos and it is a dead ringer for the first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Brahea Axel

The picture above is incorrect. That is the "no windows" form, not B. alfredii. It should be corrected on palmpedia.

Here was some info I posted a few years ago that might be helpful.

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/29904-beccariophoenix-breakdown/?hl=breakdown

Thanks Matty, this thread is just in time, because I've got one hell of a beccariophoenix indigestion at this point. I feel like I've been had with the Alfredii pictures on the net. I really like the "Windows" form, it looks magnificent. Looks like I will need to lower my expectations. Do you have new pictures of these now?

Here's all three from closest to farthest:

B. alfredii
B. madagascarensis (formerly known as 'no windows')
B. sp. 'windows' (does this thing have a real name yet?)

That's really the main thing I needed to know. I should just try to get a hold of the other two just to observe the differences. Alfredii are all growing gangbusters even outside, no shock, nothing, highs in the upper 70's to mid 80's right now, even a 92F yesterday, but lows in the mid 40's. I suspect the other two would hate it here due to the cold year-round nights.
Sorry if I pissed anyone off due to my ignorance, Len, cut me some slack. I'll shut up in regards to my speculations, lets just see if the Alfredii's cut the mustard here and can handle our cool nights, warm days USDA zone 10a climate. At least now I won't be disappointed if the darn things don't end up looking like "Windows" thanks to all the messed up pictures all over the internet. I guess even when the JPG is labeled "alfredii-01.jpg" buyer beware.
Now how do the other two grow? Which one is slowest? Which one can actually handle USDA 10a? Do the other two also require full sun?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dypsisdean

Dean, two points. 1) Someone falsely labeling a palm because it was grown as that palm or bought as it is one thing. Some guy making a website that incorrectly IDs someone else's plant is another. Axel posted two different photos of two different palms and each was "Windows". I guarantee the owners of these two plants know it is Windows form. Some website guy created the confusion not the seed dealer or seller. Hope that makes sense. 2) I am surprised you think that palm could be Alfredii after you just posted your two photos and it is a dead ringer for the first.

Len - two points back at you - :)

1) I am not prepared to state when someone has mislabeled or misrepresented something on purpose - in order to intentionally deceive. And I'll leave it at that.

2) Note that I said I was "no where near certain" regarding the Palmpedia pic. In fact I am very much in doubt. But as I said, my experience with the "no windows" is that it gets more straight (very little or no curve in the rachis) and upright, and continues to be very yellow in the petioles - along with a lighter green in the leaflets - at that age. Also, by looking at the other palms in the pic, I think that palm may have not received adequate water - thereby requiring the older leaves to be trimmed for appearance. But again, I wouldn't put any money on it. It is just the color of the frond, the color of the petiole and rachis, and the curve in the rachis that had me raise the possibility. And I could be talked out of that with a better pic. :)

Does anyone have a pic of a verified confirmed B. alf at a robust juvenile pre-trunking size?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dypsisdean

Len, Matty - same palm??? For sure???

post-11-0-78744300-1365805495_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sonoranfans

I had both (1) "windows" and (3) "alfredii" bought at 3 gallon size, easy to tell apart as the windows have very symmetrical wider flat fronds that are easily differentiable from the alfredii, an easy ID IMO. Th windows were also a real problem with the micros turning yellow in my sandy soils. My "alfredii" did not exhibit yellow rachis at any time and looked alot like axels pics when I first bought them. Today they look like Deans second pic, but 2-3 more fronds, fuller looking. the leaflet tips splay all around, like Deans 2nd pic. they are also susceptible to minor yellowing issues, but grow pretty quickly. they are not quite as fast as a dypsis pembana but not nearly as slow as P Rupicola. My "windows" palm croaked in the dec 2010 frost event. Again you can read the freeze section thread, throw out all observations under cover and the ambiguities are minimal. three to 4 growers reported no problem right after their events and then later came back with another story on the same palm. I frankly dont see much ambiguity in the freeze section if you take the final reports from each grower and remove those with cover. And all of the palms are young enough to be alfredii.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Brahea Axel

Same palm, found it on Flicker:

6046839032_8805cbdf80_o.jpg

6046281657_a6010d78ce_o.jpg

The above picture has the label Syagrus pseudococos but the person took the picture thinks it's an Alfredii.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sonoranfans

Leaflet density on the rachis looks much greater than my alfredii, its also more upright. this is not the same palm I have (3) of...And mine is in full florida sun so its not a shade effect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dypsisdean

Len/Matty,

This is what I suggested. That is, if this palm was better taken care of (watered) then the older fronds would tend to be more horizontal (as in this pic, even though still not watered enough) - and not the stiff shuttlecock that B. 'no windows' exhibits. In the original pic it had just been trimmed up that way for manicuring purposes.

But the most important point that Axel raised, that some of the cold hardy reporting on this palm may be in error, IMO is still definitely a possibility.

post-11-0-49799500-1365807018_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MattyB

I'm pretty confident that this last palm pictured is B. madigascariensis (aka no windows). Notice the leaflets are held at a bit of a V to the rachis, and the leaflets down towards the end of the frond get smaller and smaller. B. alfredii has a flatter leaf in regards to the leaflet/rachis attachment and the terminal leaflets are pretty long, creating an open space at the end of the leaf.

DeanO, yes, there is a pic of a large, pretrunking B. alfredii, here on palmtalk. It was in Florida I think but I don't know how to find it. I'll search. Maybe Christian posted it???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MattyB

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/34845-beccariophoenix-mad-alfred/?hl=%2Balfredii+%2Btrunk#entry550706

Axel, the most recent pics of my Beccariophoenix are from last year in the thread above. The B. 'windows' has been cut down because it's not a happy palm in my garden.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
LJG

Dean, that palm is not Alfredii. Look at the stiff leaves and short terminal leaflets. Alfredii never has that stiff leaf especially at that size. They are always more relaxed - most noticeable in the newer leaves. Look at the two photos of you palms. It is easy to see in those great comparison shots.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Palmə häl′ik

That palm in your second pic is B. Maddy Axel. I think that dude Keith took that picture... Either way, its at Kopsick park in StPete. Ive seen the label B. maddy in it. There are two of em there. One under the super tall L. Decoras, and the other by the tennis courts...

Ray.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MattyB

I've been looking at old threads and I'm seeing several B. madagascarensis (aka no windows) mislabled as B. alfredii. IMO anyways.

DeanO,

Check out post 14 in this thread for the largest B. alfredii in cultivation. Like Len was saying, they have a flatter more lax feel.

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/31165-beccariophoenix-crazy/?hl=%2Balfredii+%2Blarge#entry502633

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dypsisdean

Matty, thanks for the link. I remember those now.

Len, as I said, this is not a hill I am willing to die on.

But my question would be this. Will the B. mad loose its shuttlecock appearance and begin to hold fronds closer to the horizontal? Pete's and my palms pictured above sure don't give any indication of it. And neither do the ones I've seen in Jeff M's or Jerry A's garden either.

My other questions would be. Why are we sure the palms Matty linked to (which I do agree look interesting) are B. alfs? Do we have pics of them at a young age? And I know of one very knowledgable guy that has questioned the ID of those. And - do we have a pic of B. mad anywhere that is trunking, or close to trunking?

Edit: and one more interesting point. I am relating my experiences through my palm that wasn't even labeled as B. alf - only as B. sp. 'new.' On the advice of some, I have been calling it B. alf. But it is definitely more dark grey/green than all my B. mads. And I noted that Pete stated the palm he knows as B. alf in Oz 'had the very glaucous blue green colour." So is it possible the mysterious "4th" Beccariophoenix is messing with our minds here?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pedro 65

I've been looking at old threads and I'm seeing several B. madagascarensis (aka no windows) mislabled as B. alfredii. IMO anyways.

DeanO,

Check out post 14 in this thread for the largest B. alfredii in cultivation. Like Len was saying, they have a flatter more lax feel.

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/31165-beccariophoenix-crazy/?hl=%2Balfredii+%2Blarge#entry502633

Thats a great bump there Matty, and yes those trunking specimens JD posted are 100% Alfredii, they look just like the trunker in SBG apart from the SBG specimen having a very blue/ grey/ green colour..All note how Mattys and JDs pics of Alfredii do not have the yellow rachis , and Dean post 48 I say yes they are the same palm just growing under different conditions..Mattys thread of his in post 54 shows the stand out differences that even an untrained eye should notice.. :) Pete

Edit..Just saw your post 43 pics Dean, ( just got back on PT ) they too show the Obvious differences

Edit 2 Surely, Colin (palmsforpleasure) has a pic of the SBG specimen, or did you take any pics Daryl b4 you went to Thailand?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sonoranfans

I've been looking at old threads and I'm seeing several B. madagascarensis (aka no windows) mislabled as B. alfredii. IMO anyways.

DeanO,

Check out post 14 in this thread for the largest B. alfredii in cultivation. Like Len was saying, they have a flatter more lax feel.

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/31165-beccariophoenix-crazy/?hl=+alfredii++large#entry502633

Yeah that is the look that mine have, in post 14 but mine are of course smaller. they are more open and the leaflet tips splay(less rigid). I got mine from mike evans(shows his in Mattys link), and not sure where he got them but he does get stock from JD.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Brahea Axel

I should get my hands on a 'no windows' just to see how it does here. Windows is obviously not an option, I've got plenty of worm food already.

But wait, here's an even better one! Why not get the best of both in one. Introducing

Beccariophoenix sp. No Window Cold Hardy New Alfredii

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beccariophoenix-sp-No-Window-Cold-Hardy-New-Alfredii-/230412368188

I've ordered from coconutclimber before, and while his plants are good quality, the labeling is a nightmare as he takes the liberty to create his own marketing around these species. If I were to order this, I would have no idea if I just bought alfredii or 'no windows'.

So do you guys now understand why folks like me get frustrated and also have a hard time believing frost ratings on Alfredii? Those of you who are experienced may know what you've got, but I'm pretty sure there are quite a few folks with Beccariophoenix that are all over the map.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dypsisdean

Well I guess I'll have to start using the terminal leaflet distinguishing feature in my IDs of this palm from now on. I can see what Len and Matty are referring to. Using petiole color or leaf color apparently won't do it. And even the straightness/curviness of the rachis won't do it either - as one B. alf in JD's photo are very curvy, and the other is almost perfectly straight.

I am still curious though as to a pic of a mature B. mad (no windows) - and as to how upright and how yellow the petiole remains as an adult.

But Pete - I am curious as to your remark regarding B. alf - that you were glad you didn't have any. These look very nice IMO - especially the one in front. But definitely not showing any of the glaucous/grey that we were describing.

post-11-0-82005500-1365814644_thumb.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pedro 65

Well I guess I'll have to start using the terminal leaflet distinguishing feature in my IDs of this palm from now on. I can see what Len and Matty are referring to. Using petiole color or leaf color apparently won't do it. And even the straightness/curviness of the rachis won't do it either - as one B. alf in JD's photo are very curvy, and the other is almost perfectly straight.

I am still curious though as to a pic of a mature B. mad (no windows) - and as to how upright and how yellow the petiole remains as an adult.

But Pete - I am curious as to your remark regarding B. alf - that you were glad you didn't have any. These look very nice IMO - especially the one in front. But definitely not showing any of the glaucous/grey that we were describing.

To me Dean , they look untidy( not when young but as they age)..As your pics in post 43 show, Mad is so so uniform and loaded with look at me....and Alfredii become very very slanted and scrappy, they sort of resemble a mule :) Also re the blue/grey/green, I havnt seen any here on PT with the colour of the trunker at SBG. Pete

Edit..to the curious...Yes we have a few windows, heres a bit of 1

post-5709-0-61622300-1365816117_thumb.jp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alberto

This is my best growing B.alfredii

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alberto

.

post-465-0-46276300-1365816137_thumb.jpg

post-465-0-73965200-1365816302_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alberto

Many still are confused on what is Alfredii and what is Madagascariensis...below pics are Madagascariensis..

Alfredii doesn't have the beautiful yellow/ cream rachis and its leaf colour is quite glaucous blue/green.

Alfredii absolutely loves the climate at the Sydney Botanic Gardens and the specimen I saw is getting quite a size. ( Colin, Daryl or Wal do you have a pic to show from SBG ? )

Heres a pic of Madagascariensis here showing the vivid yellow/ cream and very very upright growth,( 10 ltr bucket and dog for scale) ... The Alfredii I saw at SBG had plenty of leaves laying near flat and had the very glaucous blue green colour, people learn through picture posts so lets see everyones Alfredii..sorry can't show mine coz I don't have any. :) Pete

I'm curious why you don't have alfredii Pete. Is it that they are just too similar so you didn't want to use the planting space? Easiest way to tell young alfredii is to look for purple in the petiole, at least that holds true in our climate.

Hi Richard.

From the 2 batches of B.alfredii I bought from RPS some seeds developed inro palms with very purple petioles and other have green petioles.

So,or I have 2 different species, or alfrediis have variable collor on the petioles. (???)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pedro 65

Many still are confused on what is Alfredii and what is Madagascariensis...below pics are Madagascariensis..

Alfredii doesn't have the beautiful yellow/ cream rachis and its leaf colour is quite glaucous blue/green.

Alfredii absolutely loves the climate at the Sydney Botanic Gardens and the specimen I saw is getting quite a size. ( Colin, Daryl or Wal do you have a pic to show from SBG ? )

Heres a pic of Madagascariensis here showing the vivid yellow/ cream and very very upright growth,( 10 ltr bucket and dog for scale) ... The Alfredii I saw at SBG had plenty of leaves laying near flat and had the very glaucous blue green colour, people learn through picture posts so lets see everyones Alfredii..sorry can't show mine coz I don't have any. :) Pete

I'm curious why you don't have alfredii Pete. Is it that they are just too similar so you didn't want to use the planting space? Easiest way to tell young alfredii is to look for purple in the petiole, at least that holds true in our climate.

Hi Richard.

From the 2 batches of B.alfredii I bought from RPS some seeds developed inro palms with very purple petioles and other have green petioles.

So,or I have 2 different species, or alfrediis have variable collor on the petioles. (???)

Ben, ( Kennybenjamin) you need to post the Alfredii you have at P4B in pots, I noticed they are quite blue.

Alberto, yours has quite a bit of the blue Im talking about, the SBG specimen is Blue like a Butia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dypsisdean

From the 2 batches of B.alfredii I bought from RPS some seeds developed inro palms with very purple petioles and other have green petioles.

So,or I have 2 different species, or alfrediis have variable collor on the petioles. (???)

Alberto,

Here is a topic I started a while ago about the purple petiole Bec.

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/28166-a-new-species-of-beccariophoenix/?p=460299&hl=beccariophoenix&fromsearch=1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
richnorm

Many still are confused on what is Alfredii and what is Madagascariensis...below pics are Madagascariensis..

Alfredii doesn't have the beautiful yellow/ cream rachis and its leaf colour is quite glaucous blue/green.

Alfredii absolutely loves the climate at the Sydney Botanic Gardens and the specimen I saw is getting quite a size. ( Colin, Daryl or Wal do you have a pic to show from SBG ? )

Heres a pic of Madagascariensis here showing the vivid yellow/ cream and very very upright growth,( 10 ltr bucket and dog for scale) ... The Alfredii I saw at SBG had plenty of leaves laying near flat and had the very glaucous blue green colour, people learn through picture posts so lets see everyones Alfredii..sorry can't show mine coz I don't have any. :) Pete

I'm curious why you don't have alfredii Pete. Is it that they are just too similar so you didn't want to use the planting space? Easiest way to tell young alfredii is to look for purple in the petiole, at least that holds true in our climate.

Hi Richard.

From the 2 batches of B.alfredii I bought from RPS some seeds developed inro palms with very purple petioles and other have green petioles.

So,or I have 2 different species, or alfrediis have variable collor on the petioles. (???)

I have found that if you look closely they usually have some purple tones but may take a while to develop but certainly not the yellow of mad. Your palm is alfredii and unlikely to be cut with mad (which have a different seed shape anyway). Dean's picture of the two side by side is a classic. What will be interesting is what they look like in cultivation once at the trunking stage, though judging from Pete's comments we have backed the wrong horse!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Brahea Axel

Many still are confused on what is Alfredii and what is Madagascariensis...below pics are Madagascariensis..

Alfredii doesn't have the beautiful yellow/ cream rachis and its leaf colour is quite glaucous blue/green.

Alfredii absolutely loves the climate at the Sydney Botanic Gardens and the specimen I saw is getting quite a size. ( Colin, Daryl or Wal do you have a pic to show from SBG ? )

Heres a pic of Madagascariensis here showing the vivid yellow/ cream and very very upright growth,( 10 ltr bucket and dog for scale) ... The Alfredii I saw at SBG had plenty of leaves laying near flat and had the very glaucous blue green colour, people learn through picture posts so lets see everyones Alfredii..sorry can't show mine coz I don't have any. :) Pete

I'm curious why you don't have alfredii Pete. Is it that they are just too similar so you didn't want to use the planting space? Easiest way to tell young alfredii is to look for purple in the petiole, at least that holds true in our climate.

Hi Richard.

From the 2 batches of B.alfredii I bought from RPS some seeds developed inro palms with very purple petioles and other have green petioles.

So,or I have 2 different species, or alfrediis have variable collor on the petioles. (???)

So the one you posted pictures of with your son looks like it has green petioles, not purple petioles, or does the purple fade to green when they mature?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
LJG

Matty, thanks for the link. I remember those now.Len, as I said, this is not a hill I am willing to die on.But my question would be this. Will the B. mad loose its shuttlecock appearance and begin to hold fronds closer to the horizontal? Pete's and my palms pictured above sure don't give any indication of it. And neither do the ones I've seen in Jeff M's or Jerry A's garden either. My other questions would be. Why are we sure the palms Matty linked to (which I do agree look interesting) are B. alfs? Do we have pics of them at a young age? And I know of one very knowledgable guy that has questioned the ID of those. And - do we have a pic of B. mad anywhere that is trunking, or close to trunking?Edit: and one more interesting point. I am relating my experiences through my palm that wasn't even labeled and B. alf - only as B. sp. 'new.' On the advice of some, I have been calling it B. alf. But it is definitely more dark grey/green than all my B. mads. And I noted that Pete stated the palm he knows as B. alf in Oz 'had the very glaucous blue green colour." So is it possible the mysterious "4th" Beccariophoenix is messing with our minds here?

I guess it depends on who you ask. Jeff Brusseau showed me pictures from his trip and one had Madagascariensis. It was huge (think CIDP) huge. It grew to where the leaves were horizontal. But then Gary Levine told when he saw them in the wild the were shuttle cock as large mature trees. The picture Jeff showed me goes along with what Pete said. They really grow into untidy palms when looking at them in the wild - fully exposed and beat up by wind. However I disagree with Pete that Alfredii is untidy as the pictures we see including ones Axel posted here show an attractive palm - at least to me.

In regards to the purplish petiole, I have witnessed this myself recently. Anyone that goes to Rancho Soledad Nursery can see the new shipment of Alfredii. They have more color to them then what I have grown or seen. Definitely a purplish petiole. Everything else is the same though. My hunch is they lose that color here in SoCal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hammer

Wow. This is a helluva thread. Love the Beccies!

Matty's "Breakdown" thread previously posted is an excellent reference. Not sure how much more I can add. But I will try.

Axel, don't give up on the beauty of Alfredii. I think Mads. are a much tidier and prettier palm when young...pretrunk. However, do a search for the original Kew article on the discovery of Alfredii. Some good close up photos of mature trees in habitat. The ugly duckling grows up into a rather elegant swan.

I have yet to see a verifiable photo of mature Mad. Although there is a presentation on Palmpedia that shows one in habitat. Sadly, it was hard to see because of all the other vegetation around.

B. sp. "windows" has a reputation for being a massive tree when mature. Enormous trunk size. Alfredii, according to the Kew article, has a thinner trunk. 28 to 30 cm at chest height. Alfredii also appears to hold leaves at horizontal or higher when mature., in most cases. Not so with "windows".

The dark petiole vs. the green petiole on Alfredii may, infact, be a function sun exposure. The anecodotal evidence I have seen seems to suggest less sun means darker petioles.

Alfredii often times shows small windows when young. While faster than Mad. it moves through the leaf phases slower than Mad. Meaning, Mad. grows pinnate leaves younger than Alfredii.

Anything else I can think of...well, I will be sure to shout it out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dypsisdean

I guess it depends on who you ask. Jeff Brusseau showed me pictures from his trip and one had Madagascariensis. It was huge (think CIDP) huge. It grew to where the leaves were horizontal. But then Gary Levine told when he saw them in the wild the were shuttle cock as large mature trees. The picture Jeff showed me goes along with what Pete said. They really grow into untidy palms when looking at them in the wild - fully exposed and beat up by wind. However I disagree with Pete that Alfredii is untidy as the pictures we see including ones Axel posted here show an attractive palm - at least to me.

Len,

I think that Bec. you are referring to is the one I put on the cover of the Online Magazine http://www.palmpedia.net/Video/PalmMag1/Default.html

But I think I also remember that this was thought to be the "windows" form when it still wasn't believed that there were two species - so both were named B. mad. I will have to check with Jeff M. next time we talk, but I remember there was something funky going on with the naming of that palm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alberto

Many still are confused on what is Alfredii and what is Madagascariensis...below pics are Madagascariensis..

Alfredii doesn't have the beautiful yellow/ cream rachis and its leaf colour is quite glaucous blue/green.

Alfredii absolutely loves the climate at the Sydney Botanic Gardens and the specimen I saw is getting quite a size. ( Colin, Daryl or Wal do you have a pic to show from SBG ? )

Heres a pic of Madagascariensis here showing the vivid yellow/ cream and very very upright growth,( 10 ltr bucket and dog for scale) ... The Alfredii I saw at SBG had plenty of leaves laying near flat and had the very glaucous blue green colour, people learn through picture posts so lets see everyones Alfredii..sorry can't show mine coz I don't have any. :) Pete

I'm curious why you don't have alfredii Pete. Is it that they are just too similar so you didn't want to use the planting space? Easiest way to tell young alfredii is to look for purple in the petiole, at least that holds true in our climate.

Hi Richard.

From the 2 batches of B.alfredii I bought from RPS some seeds developed inro palms with very purple petioles and other have green petioles.

So,or I have 2 different species, or alfrediis have variable collor on the petioles. (???)

So the one you posted pictures of with your son looks like it has green petioles, not purple petioles, or does the purple fade to green when they mature?

This is de green petiole form

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dypsisdean

I guess it depends on who you ask. Jeff Brusseau showed me pictures from his trip and one had Madagascariensis. It was huge (think CIDP) huge. It grew to where the leaves were horizontal. But then Gary Levine told when he saw them in the wild the were shuttle cock as large mature trees. The picture Jeff showed me goes along with what Pete said. They really grow into untidy palms when looking at them in the wild - fully exposed and beat up by wind. However I disagree with Pete that Alfredii is untidy as the pictures we see including ones Axel posted here show an attractive palm - at least to me.

Len,

I think that Bec. you are referring to is the one I put on the cover of the Online Magazine http://www.palmpedia.net/Video/PalmMag1/Default.html

But I think I also remember that this was thought to be the "windows" form when it still wasn't believed that there were two species - so both were named B. mad. I will have to check with Jeff M. next time we talk, but I remember there was something funky going on with the naming of that palm.

So Len - I went back and listened to Jeff M's account of this palm as given in his presentation to the PSSC five years ago. I'm pretty sure this is the palm you are referring to, and these may even be Jeff B's photos.

Jeff M stated this was the only B. "windows" palm known to exist, and that it was protected by a Malagasy witch, and that all the "windows" seeds/palms to date had come from this tree. It was known when he gave the presentation that the "no windows" form was to assume the B. mad name and that this form was to officially take the Latin name for windows - and we are still waiting for that official announcement I guess. But to further confuse matters, isn't this the palm referred to as B. mad in POM?

Jeff gave a similar presentation to HIPS. I don't know if any more info was added at that time. For those who haven't listened to these presentations by Jeff Marcus, they are worth the time. http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Category:SLIDESHOWS

BTW - You can even see John Dransfield and I believe Jeff M to his left along with Randy Moore on his right - and with Suchin Marcus taking a pic - all in the first photo.

post-11-0-02353800-1365833660_thumb.jpg

post-11-0-61871200-1365833665_thumb.jpg

post-11-0-21876400-1365833669_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kennybenjamin

QUOTE: Ben, ( Kennybenjamin) you need to post the Alfredii you have at P4B in pots, I noticed they are quite blue.

Hi Richard.

I'm curious why you don't have alfredii Pete. Is it that they are just too similar so you didn't want to use the planting space? Easiest way to tell young alfredii is to look for purple in the petiole, at least that holds true in our climate.
Many still are confused on what is Alfredii and what is Madagascariensis...below pics are Madagascariensis..

Alfredii doesn't have the beautiful yellow/ cream rachis and its leaf colour is quite glaucous blue/green.

Alfredii absolutely loves the climate at the Sydney Botanic Gardens and the specimen I saw is getting quite a size. ( Colin, Daryl or Wal do you have a pic to show from SBG ? )

Heres a pic of Madagascariensis here showing the vivid yellow/ cream and very very upright growth,( 10 ltr bucket and dog for scale) ... The Alfredii I saw at SBG had plenty of leaves laying near flat and had the very glaucous blue green colour, people learn through picture posts so lets see everyones Alfredii..sorry can't show mine coz I don't have any. :) Pete
From the 2 batches of B.alfredii I bought from RPS some seeds developed inro palms with very purple petioles and other have green petioles.
So,or I have 2 different species, or alfrediis have variable collor on the petioles. (???)
Alberto, yours has quite a bit of the blue Im talking about, the SBG specimen is Blue like a Butia


END QUOTE

Photos as requested...


post-6412-0-81399100-1365851047_thumb.jp post-6412-0-11249400-1365851093_thumb.jp


I think this next photo best illustrates the petiole colour the Pete is talking about...


post-6412-0-64667700-1365851124_thumb.jp



I have only just had a chance to have a quick skim through this thread ( it has gotten quite technical and confusing in a short period of time ! )

IMHO, I agree with the theory that the more upright the fronds the more chance of the palm being B. mad. (no windows). I also have noted that some of the B. alf. have a blueish colour to the petiole..... I do however think that this trait is variable.... But in saying this if it has that colour it is NOT ( again IMHO ) a B. mad.

Blue colour = B. mad, no blue could be either??? I also think that the upright trait only becomes obvious once the palm starts to gain some size and starts to take off ( approx 1.5 m tall ? )

I could be swayed either way as to what 2 of Axels palms are in post #44 (photos 1 and 3) but I do think that photo 2 is B. alf. ?? I think they are too young too postively id. This Id might be easier by using climatic conditons and plant responses but in this case this is not something that I can claim to be overly knowledgeable about..... your conditions are very different than mine. This is one of the reasons Palm talk is great, to learn from others with more / different experience!!

Good luck working this all out!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alberto

Were is the thread with the superb high resolution pics from the highlands of Madagascar that shows the B.alfredii growing near streams, in gallery forests ?

I really like my young B.alfredii, the weeping fronds, beautifull collor and fast growth. It´s certainly one of my best palms and nobody will be deceived planting them!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
dan.vagnoni

Were is the thread with the superb high resolution pics from the highlands of Madagascar that shows the B.alfredii growing near streams, in gallery forests ?

I really like my young B.alfredii, the weeping fronds, beautifull collor and fast growth. It´s certainly one of my best palms and nobody will be deceived planting them!

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/19736-beccariophoenix/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Brahea Axel

Were is the thread with the superb high resolution pics from the highlands of Madagascar that shows the B.alfredii growing near streams, in gallery forests ?

I really like my young B.alfredii, the weeping fronds, beautifull collor and fast growth. It´s certainly one of my best palms and nobody will be deceived planting them!

Alberto, your green petiole alfredii looks superb. Didn't that thing already get exposed to some pretty decent frost at your place? I thought I had read something about you hitting -3C or something like that. Can you share what you noticed? The blue-green seedling with green petiole that I have didn't even flinch being pulled from the heated greenhouse in February, and grew right through nights in the low 40's (4-6C). They don't seem at all to mind the high diurnal temperature swings we get. The other two came from an unheated greenhouse where bismarcks got fried but these didn't even blink.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
LJG

I guess it depends on who you ask. Jeff Brusseau showed me pictures from his trip and one had Madagascariensis. It was huge (think CIDP) huge. It grew to where the leaves were horizontal. But then Gary Levine told when he saw them in the wild the were shuttle cock as large mature trees. The picture Jeff showed me goes along with what Pete said. They really grow into untidy palms when looking at them in the wild - fully exposed and beat up by wind. However I disagree with Pete that Alfredii is untidy as the pictures we see including ones Axel posted here show an attractive palm - at least to me.

Len,

I think that Bec. you are referring to is the one I put on the cover of the Online Magazine http://www.palmpedia.net/Video/PalmMag1/Default.html

But I think I also remember that this was thought to be the "windows" form when it still wasn't believed that there were two species - so both were named B. mad. I will have to check with Jeff M. next time we talk, but I remember there was something funky going on with the naming of that palm.

So Len - I went back and listened to Jeff M's account of this palm as given in his presentation to the PSSC five years ago. I'm pretty sure this is the palm you are referring to, and these may even be Jeff B's photos.

Jeff M stated this was the only B. "windows" palm known to exist, and that it was protected by a Malagasy witch, and that all the "windows" seeds/palms to date had come from this tree. It was known when he gave the presentation that the "no windows" form was to assume the B. mad name and that this form was to officially take the Latin name for windows - and we are still waiting for that official announcement I guess. But to further confuse matters, isn't this the palm referred to as B. mad in POM?

Jeff gave a similar presentation to HIPS. I don't know if any more info was added at that time. For those who haven't listened to these presentations by Jeff Marcus, they are worth the time. http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Category:SLIDESHOWS

BTW - You can even see John Dransfield and I believe Jeff M to his left along with Randy Moore on his right - and with Suchin Marcus taking a pic - all in the first photo.

Dean, not picture i am referring to but another I have seen. the one i saw from Jeff may be of that palm though. It certainly is more attractive then I recall. I know Gary's are of true Madagascariensis as he saw many. I talked to him today and he said big ones had more horizontal leaves as one would expect with such a large plant with long leaves.

Dean, on this Windows being called Madagascariensis in POM that would make sense because only one known species existed then. Of course Alfredii came around and then herbarium material proved the no windows found growing in Madagascar was in fact the true Madagascariensis from description in 1915. Hence the name change and requirement for a new species name for Windows.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...