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Brahea Axel

B. Alfredii under-rated

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Brahea Axel

I picked up 3 greenhouse grown B Alfredii last month and just threw them into full blazing sun in the ground. They've been in the ground in full sun for an entire month now and today we had our first scorcher day at 92F with 35MPH winds with adiabatic heating down the Mountain. It was hot and dry and these palms are not showing any hint of stress, yellowing or burn. They grew right from the get go, pushing new fronds out even without heat.

I really wonder if the frost damage report on Alfredii are based on mis-labeled specimens? I can't imagine a palm this robust and dry/heat tolerant would mind any frost.

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Phoenikakias

I picked up 3 greenhouse grown B Alfredii last month and just threw them into full blazing sun in the ground. They've been in the ground in full sun for an entire month now and today we had our first scorcher day at 92F with 35MPH winds with adiabatic heating down the Mountain. It was hot and dry and these palms are not showing any hint of stress, yellowing or burn. They grew right from the get go, pushing new fronds out even without heat.

I really wonder if the frost damage report on Alfredii are based on mis-labeled specimens? I can't imagine a palm this robust and dry/heat tolerant would mind any frost.

Say it again Axel!

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Walter John

Great thread Axel, I've spoken about this recently palm as well, I rate it highly, it has come through close to the worst heat/drought times ever experienced for my district then followed on by flooding rains (still happening) in my area, and has not been fazed at all. Last winter was lengthy and cool too. It keeps a wonderful form with striking erect leaves, needs no work save for initial plant out with lquid fish and/or seaweed fertiliser and a steady supply of mulch product around it's base area.

This one's a keeper... :)

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Palmə häl′ik

What could this palm possibly be "mislabled" with Axel? ...and these palms WILL NOT tolerate frost as a seedling.

- Ray.

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sonoranfans

If there are mislabelled alfredii, they all look the same. SO the question is what could they be? there are three beccariophoenix species that are available. The windows palm is easily identified by windows. The other two are separated by growth rate, one is very slow(non windows) the other is moderately fast(alfredii). The heat tolerance of a palm doesn't foretell its cold tolerance in many cases. Jubaea are the most cold tolerant pinnate palm but dont like heat. Royals love heat, but dont like frost. I think there are palm seedlings that are frost sensitive but grow to be cold tolerant adults. Sabal Domingensis is an 8b palm according to many, but as a seedling it doesn't like frost(check the freeze section). Many of these palms are being grown in conditions that are not like the native habitat. Do alfredii ever see frosts on the high plateau? I have my doubts as the cool season is very dry in habitat.

Edited by sonoranfans

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Brahea Axel

What could this palm possibly be "mislabled" with Axel? ...and these palms WILL NOT tolerate frost as a seedling.

- Ray.

People who think they have b Alfredii and see poor cold tolerance actually have beccariophoenix madagascariensis.

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Jim in Los Altos

I have four small ones (20 to 24" tall) in the ground and the most exposed ones have had plentiful amounts of frost on them yearly and have never shown anything but a few small spots on their leaves. They've all been in the ground since small strap leafed specimens. I hope their growth rate speeds up as time goes by. Right now their growth rate is similar to young Parajubaea.

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sonoranfans

What could this palm possibly be "mislabled" with Axel? ...and these palms WILL NOT tolerate frost as a seedling.

- Ray.

People who think they have b Alfredii and see poor cold tolerance actually have beccariophoenix madagascariensis.

Madagascarensis doesnt double its size in a year, its very slow. Any more ideas? I had madagascarensis in AZ, looks very similar but, its a very slow palm.

Edited by sonoranfans

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Brahea Axel

If there are mislabelled alfredii, they all look the same. SO the question is what could they be? there are three beccariophoenix species that are available. The windows palm is easily identified by windows. The other two are separated by growth rate, one is very slow(non windows) the other is moderately fast(alfredii). The heat tolerance of a palm doesn't foretell its cold tolerance in many cases. Jubaea are the most cold tolerant pinnate palm but dont like heat. Royals love heat, but dont like frost. I think there are palm seedlings that are frost sensitive but grow to be cold tolerant adults. Sabal Domingensis is an 8b palm according to many, but as a seedling it doesn't like frost(check the freeze section). Many of these palms are being grown in conditions that are not like the native habitat. Do alfredii ever see frosts on the high plateau? I have my doubts as the cool season is very dry in habitat.

True, you are correct, heat tolerance has little to do with frost tolerance, and your roystonea example is one of many, mangoes come to mind as well. But that's not what I was saying. What I am saying is that the combination of tolerance to hot dry conditions, drought conditions and the ability to readily adjust from shady humid greenhouse to dry and scorching full sun is what would usually correlate to higher frost tolerance.

Higher elevations in the tropics doesn't guarantee added frost tolerance, but it does guarantee some chill tolerance (32-55F) and faster growth rates at those temperatures. Just as an FYI, the Madagascar plateau does have plenty of locations that experience frost at the higher elevations. They're usually dry frosts (air temp above dew point), not dew frosts though, but that still doesn't prevent the accumulation of frozen dew on surfaces exposed to the night sky since these will supercool and drop below the dew point. which is why it's possible to have frost on the windshield of your car when the air temperature is above 32F but below 39F). Also, keep in mind that at higher elevations, the degree of supercooling of surfaces increases, (less atmosphere to insulate from radiation loss) and at 6,000 feet, you can have horizontal exposed surfaces drop below freezing when the air temperature is as high as 41F.

I wouldn't be surprised if b. alfredii's adaptation is similar to bismarckia, i.e. can take a lot of heat and dryness and chill and has increasing frost tolerance with age, a frost tolerance that also improves when the roots are kept dry during the cold season. I think you can also yank a small bismarckia out of a shade grown humid greenhouse condition and put it into scorching full sun without any problems. But it looks to me that alfredii continues growth in cooler conditions than bismarckia. The Sabal Domingensis example is also a good one, a trait it shares with sabal maritima and sabal mauritiiformis although the latter two will never achieve zone 8b hardiness status.

Anyways, my rantings are purely theoretical and thus have little merit other than giving me confidence they will grow for me. I don't get enough frost on my hillside (Zone 10a) to be able to prove that they are frost tolerant. But Jim's experience in Los Altos is far more valuable since the proof's in the pudding as they say. I do have a frost pit in my garden that sees white frost every year. I should put one there just to see what happens. By the way, I bought my plants from a grower this Spring whose greenhouse was not heated and dropped into the low 20's. The 5 gallon bismarckias in there looked rather bad, but the alfredii were untouched.

I have four small ones (20 to 24" tall) in the ground and the most exposed ones have had plentiful amounts of frost on them yearly and have never shown anything but a few small spots on their leaves. They've all been in the ground since small strap leafed specimens. I hope their growth rate speeds up as time goes by. Right now their growth rate is similar to young Parajubaea.

Thanks, Jim. Your desire to push the envelope helps the rest of us a great deal.

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Brahea Axel

What could this palm possibly be "mislabled" with Axel? ...and these palms WILL NOT tolerate frost as a seedling.

- Ray.

People who think they have b Alfredii and see poor cold tolerance actually have beccariophoenix madagascariensis.

Madagascarensis doesnt double its size in a year, its very slow. Any more ideas? I had madagascarensis in AZ, looks very similar but, its a very slow palm.

Don't ask me, I don't have a clue, just speculating. Maybe alfredii's frost tolerance is proportional to their owner's fear of frost? :)

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LJG

What could this palm possibly be "mislabled" with Axel? ...and these palms WILL NOT tolerate frost as a seedling.

- Ray.

People who think they have b Alfredii and see poor cold tolerance actually have beccariophoenix madagascariensis.
You have been growing this in the ground for one month and now you can tell us what we all have? Also, while they might be able to handle some cold, people will find these are not "cold hardy" as a few believe. I don't give credence to a few years of growing as the end all stamp of approval. These are amazing plants like Wal said but I would wait to pass judgement on how cold hardy they are. Also, these do much better well feed and well watered. They grow right along a river bed in the wild. People that under water and fertilize these are not growing them to their max potential.

Another interesting point about the two that I have observed. As larger, fully exposed plants Alfredii yellows a little in winter while madagascariensis doesn't in SoCal. A few that grow both have noticed this as well as myself. Alfredii greens up quickly in spring but it is obvious it needs warmer soil to look its best while madagascariensis stays dark green year round.

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MattyB

Interesting comment Len, about the B. alfredii yellowing while B. mad doesn't so much. I've experience this too. Also, my B. alfredii seems to get some tip burn from cold temps in the mid 30's. They are both planted right next to each other and exposed completely.

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LJG

Interesting comment Len, about the B. alfredii yellowing while B. mad doesn't so much. I've experience this too. Also, my B. alfredii seems to get some tip burn from cold temps in the mid 30's. They are both planted right next to each other and exposed completely.

Thanks Matt for the info. That is another that sees this. Matt Patricelli told me he sees the same as well as a grower in Fallbrook. We all have larger exposed specimens so I think that has a lot to do with it.

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MattyB

Last year I thought the yellowing/brown tipping was from a gopher I had in the general area and dismissed it, but this year it happened again, the same way, and no gophers. I've got the drip line run down to my Beccariophoenix now, so I can't wait to see how much they'll love it this summer.

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Brahea Axel

What could this palm possibly be "mislabled" with Axel? ...and these palms WILL NOT tolerate frost as a seedling.

- Ray.

People who think they have b Alfredii and see poor cold tolerance actually have beccariophoenix madagascariensis.
You have been growing this in the ground for one month and now you can tell us what we all have? Also, while they might be able to handle some cold, people will find these are not "cold hardy" as a few believe. I don't give credence to a few years of growing as the end all stamp of approval. These are amazing plants like Wal said but I would wait to pass judgement on how cold hardy they are. Also, these do much better well feed and well watered. They grow right along a river bed in the wild. People that under water and fertilize these are not growing them to their max potential.

Another interesting point about the two that I have observed. As larger, fully exposed plants Alfredii yellows a little in winter while madagascariensis doesn't in SoCal. A few that grow both have noticed this as well as myself. Alfredii greens up quickly in spring but it is obvious it needs warmer soil to look its best while madagascariensis stays dark green year round.

Len, I stated above, I don't have a clue, but since when is it wrong to ask questions? The question is this: half the report claim alfredii is hardy and cold growing, the other half claim they yellow, get damaged in light frost and just aren't hardy at all. If I were to listen to you and Matty, I'd pull the darn things now and move on. If I were to listen to the other reports, I'd plant a whole hedge of them. So who should I listen to? Why is there such a discrepancy in the reports? Could there be mis-labeling? Could there be genetic variations in the seed batches? Or could half of the reports be mistakenly over-optimistic and the observers are color blind?

Back to what you and Matty are saying, if these yellow for you down south, then they will yellow up here. My garden may be in a USDA zone 10a, but I don't have some sort of magical subterranean hotspring to keep my soil warm when the sun angle is real low. I heard similar reports elsewhere that alfredii doesn't like cold soil and tends to decline because of it. Mine will come out if they look like crap in the Winter, frost tolerant or not. I am interested more in a nice landscape than owning rare and unusual palms. All my stuff stays lush and green through the Winter months except for chamadorea plumosa.

I was going to buy some field exposed 15g from Joe this Spring, but when I saw the plants, they looked yellow, spotted and like complete crap. At the time I shrugged it off as mis-labeled plants, but when I hear what you say, maybe they are the real deal and aren't worthy. Could there still be distinct seed batches with differences in adaptation? I guess the only way i am going to find out is my planting these things here and see what happens.

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tikitiki

I have tried Beccariophoenix madagascariensis several times It gets toasted with frost and dies soon after. I lose them at 28. these were all Florida 5 gallon sizes. The B. alfredii do much better. The same year my seedling of B. alfredii pulled a spear and grew right through it. The other three 5 gallons did great. No frost damage at all. I don't think they ever stopped growing. From my past years on palm talk all I can say is this. It matters very little what two people can grow outside a plants natural habitat. Once you remove them all bets are off. Even different parts of central Florida can grow many different species from one another.

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DoomsDave

In keeping with Matt and Len's observations, it appears that while B. alfredii will take more cold without damage, it also appears to want more heat to look its best than B. madagascarensis. Alfredii also grow MUCH faster, though not like an Archontophoenix (not even close, at least when small).

I have three good-sized alfredii that appear to have taken temperatures of 25 and 27 F over two nights this winter, and suffered minimal if any damage. But, they're yellow, though greening up fast.

Madagascarensis got badly damaged at 27 F in 2007, but has stayed nice and green through 32 F temps this winter.

Some palms take the cool better than the cold. In other words, they'll take cool temperatures well, but not a freeze. Syagrus sancona, which happened to be planted next to the alfrediis mentioned above, took a hard hit this winter, with about 50% damage to the leaves (recovering nicely). Rhopies are also that way, especially sapida.

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sonoranfans

What could this palm possibly be "mislabled" with Axel? ...and these palms WILL NOT tolerate frost as a seedling.

- Ray.

People who think they have b Alfredii and see poor cold tolerance actually have beccariophoenix madagascariensis.
You have been growing this in the ground for one month and now you can tell us what we all have? Also, while they might be able to handle some cold, people will find these are not "cold hardy" as a few believe. I don't give credence to a few years of growing as the end all stamp of approval. These are amazing plants like Wal said but I would wait to pass judgement on how cold hardy they are. Also, these do much better well feed and well watered. They grow right along a river bed in the wild. People that under water and fertilize these are not growing them to their max potential.

Another interesting point about the two that I have observed. As larger, fully exposed plants Alfredii yellows a little in winter while madagascariensis doesn't in SoCal. A few that grow both have noticed this as well as myself. Alfredii greens up quickly in spring but it is obvious it needs warmer soil to look its best while madagascariensis stays dark green year round.

My Alfredii are fertilizer needy in my sandy soils(to keep the green), and yes they do brown tip a little in winter. Mine were defoliated in 2010 28F hard frost(when you can scrape it off and its quite noticable. Mine did not have spear pull and did not die, they are 4-5.5' overall today. The supposed "discrepancies" in the freeze section are often accompanied by temperatures that arent verifiable as many were under canopy. If its 25F and frost is in the open, frost is not necessarily significant under canopy. ANd the cold/frost tolerance has alot to do with duration of cold not just what the ultimate low was. this is why I dont pay alot of attention to remarks in the cold section that say 25F under canopy as it may be that under the canopy it was 30F. Unless you have a good thermometer under that canopy and state that, your reports are not worth much to me. I have measured as much as 7F advantage under canopy and the year my one in the open frost burned, the one under canopy wasnt even spotted. I also dont pay too much attention to hardiness of plants in containers or of small seedlings recently planted. Cold and frost hardiness are not as simple as some make them out to be. And I seriously doubt that all those alfredii out there all across the country are mislabelled. A few possibly, but as the number mounts its is very unlikely.

Edited by sonoranfans

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Peter

My alfredii also yellowed up pretty good this winter. It's been in the ground for 3 winters and has seen the upper 20's, with no major problems. It's about 6' tall, although I'm sure it would be bigger with more water and fertiliser. And I had to move it this week to a wetter portion of my garden(see previous comments), and when I did the soil fell away from the root ball-not ideal, so we'll soon see how well they move.

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Bennz

What could this palm possibly be "mislabled" with Axel? ...and these palms WILL NOT tolerate frost as a seedling.

- Ray.

People who think they have b Alfredii and see poor cold tolerance actually have beccariophoenix madagascariensis.
You have been growing this in the ground for one month and now you can tell us what we all have? Also, while they might be able to handle some cold, people will find these are not "cold hardy" as a few believe. I don't give credence to a few years of growing as the end all stamp of approval. These are amazing plants like Wal said but I would wait to pass judgement on how cold hardy they are. Also, these do much better well feed and well watered. They grow right along a river bed in the wild. People that under water and fertilize these are not growing them to their max potential.

Another interesting point about the two that I have observed. As larger, fully exposed plants Alfredii yellows a little in winter while madagascariensis doesn't in SoCal. A few that grow both have noticed this as well as myself. Alfredii greens up quickly in spring but it is obvious it needs warmer soil to look its best while madagascariensis stays dark green year round.

Len, I stated above, I don't have a clue, but since when is it wrong to ask questions? The question is this: half the report claim alfredii is hardy and cold growing, the other half claim they yellow, get damaged in light frost and just aren't hardy at all. If I were to listen to you and Matty, I'd pull the darn things now and move on. If I were to listen to the other reports, I'd plant a whole hedge of them. So who should I listen to? Why is there such a discrepancy in the reports? Could there be mis-labeling? Could there be genetic variations in the seed batches? Or could half of the reports be mistakenly over-optimistic and the observers are color blind?

Back to what you and Matty are saying, if these yellow for you down south, then they will yellow up here. My garden may be in a USDA zone 10a, but I don't have some sort of magical subterranean hotspring to keep my soil warm when the sun angle is real low. I heard similar reports elsewhere that alfredii doesn't like cold soil and tends to decline because of it. Mine will come out if they look like crap in the Winter, frost tolerant or not. I am interested more in a nice landscape than owning rare and unusual palms. All my stuff stays lush and green through the Winter months except for chamadorea plumosa.

I was going to buy some field exposed 15g from Joe this Spring, but when I saw the plants, they looked yellow, spotted and like complete crap. At the time I shrugged it off as mis-labeled plants, but when I hear what you say, maybe they are the real deal and aren't worthy. Could there still be distinct seed batches with differences in adaptation? I guess the only way i am going to find out is my planting these things here and see what happens.

I don't have much experience with these (two seedlings, one just starting to go pinnate, the other almost dead), but from what I'm hearing from other NZ growers the same duality appears to be happening. Some people are finding them very cold and frost resistant, other people are having them die for no obvious reason. Almost as if there is another variable altogether that we are not taking into account. Anyone know anything about soil trace element availablility in highland Madagascar?

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sonoranfans

My alfredii also yellowed up pretty good this winter. It's been in the ground for 3 winters and has seen the upper 20's, with no major problems. It's about 6' tall, although I'm sure it would be bigger with more water and fertiliser. And I had to move it this week to a wetter portion of my garden(see previous comments), and when I did the soil fell away from the root ball-not ideal, so we'll soon see how well they move.

Dont worry peter, these alfredii move very well, one of mine was moved at 7 gallon size, didnt miss a beat. Im not sure they want to be wet all the time though...

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richnorm

Need another decade or two to evaluate these palms. Parajubaea coccoides looked like a real winner here for 20 years then went from hero to zero. Len's comment about colour resonates here, I had noticed this but with only a few alfredii and one madagascariensis didn't attach any significance to it. Small plants are prone to crown rot, especially madagascariensis. Plenty of sun and weather might help reduce this. Alfredii has suddenly speeded-up for me after a very slow start.

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Brahea Axel

My Alfredii are fertilizer needy in my sandy soils(to keep the green), and yes they do brown tip a little in winter. Mine were defoliated in 2010 28F hard frost(when you can scrape it off and its quite noticable. Mine did not have spear pull and did not die, they are 4-5.5' overall today. The supposed "discrepancies" in the freeze section are often accompanied by temperatures that arent verifiable as many were under canopy. If its 25F and frost is in the open, frost is not necessarily significant under canopy. ANd the cold/frost tolerance has alot to do with duration of cold not just what the ultimate low was. this is why I dont pay alot of attention to remarks in the cold section that say 25F under canopy as it may be that under the canopy it was 30F. Unless you have a good thermometer under that canopy and state that, your reports are not worth much to me. I have measured as much as 7F advantage under canopy and the year my one in the open frost burned, the one under canopy wasnt even spotted. I also dont pay too much attention to hardiness of plants in containers or of small seedlings recently planted. Cold and frost hardiness are not as simple as some make them out to be. And I seriously doubt that all those alfredii out there all across the country are mislabelled. A few possibly, but as the number mounts its is very unlikely.

My alfredii are growing in pure sand, the biggest deficiencies i deal with on most plants are nitrogen and calcium. I use palm fertilizer stakes to alleviate the problem. Sand is ideal because you can let it go dry in the Winter.

I get what you're saying about the frost ratings, rating the hardiness of a plant based on how they do in a pot as a seedling in a freeze is not very accurate. The first 2 feet up from the ground can get brutally cold, well below the official 6 feet height temperature measurements. The reverse can be true too. I've had both scenarios take place, with nothing getting hit below about 4 feet height, it depends on the nature of the freeze. I measure the temperature in my garden out in the open, away from structures at 6 feet height with a real sturdy thermal shield. When it hits 28F in that shield, the spots under canopy run 32-34F, not even a trace of damage on papayas.

I don't have much experience with these (two seedlings, one just starting to go pinnate, the other almost dead), but from what I'm hearing from other NZ growers the same duality appears to be happening. Some people are finding them very cold and frost resistant, other people are having them die for no obvious reason. Almost as if there is another variable altogether that we are not taking into account. Anyone know anything about soil trace element availablility in highland Madagascar?

Ben, that's an interesting theory. Not sure why the ones I got didn't get hit from 25F temps and another grower's palms closer to the coast looked bad.

Need another decade or two to evaluate these palms. Parajubaea coccoides looked like a real winner here for 20 years then went from hero to zero. Len's comment about colour resonates here, I had noticed this but with only a few alfredii and one madagascariensis didn't attach any significance to it. Small plants are prone to crown rot, especially madagascariensis. Plenty of sun and weather might help reduce this. Alfredii has suddenly speeded-up for me after a very slow start.

Yeah, I'd hate to invest 10 years into something that's not viable long term. I'm giving mine no more than a couple of years to prove themselves. BTW, Cocoides is great here, no sudden death syndrome yet, and it's one of my most successful palms, but if I had to do it all over, I'd opt entirely for torallyi and sunkha, simply because one of my cocoides started to show cosmetic leaf damage, either from exposure to 28F for a couple of hours, but probably more likely from our 108F temps last Fall. My torallyi I planted 14 years ago looks the most beautiful. Cocoides is very stable appearance wise with little variation from specimen to specimen, but hardiness of fronds seems highly variable. Torallyi has so much more genetic variation from tree to tree but is more stable hardiness wise.

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redant

B. Alfredii has been a real winner for me, Easy to grow, no problems in the winter, white fly leaves it alone, just a great palm for S. FL.

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sonoranfans

I re read the freeze section on alfredii and it appears that many growers who first said no problem ended up with problems later. this palm doesnt show damage right away, a few weeks later is when you will know. Also the only large specimen that was outright killed was in pensacola, and that is 9a country with temps quite a bit colder than the alfredii rating. I think this palm will be fine in 9b if you can get it with established roots and some size before the cold hits, and light canopy nearby could also help. If we get a 50 year cold front I can always start up the fire pit and warm the area over night.

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LJG

What could this palm possibly be "mislabled" with Axel? ...and these palms WILL NOT tolerate frost as a seedling.

- Ray.

People who think they have b Alfredii and see poor cold tolerance actually have beccariophoenix madagascariensis.
You have been growing this in the ground for one month and now you can tell us what we all have? Also, while they might be able to handle some cold, people will find these are not "cold hardy" as a few believe. I don't give credence to a few years of growing as the end all stamp of approval. These are amazing plants like Wal said but I would wait to pass judgement on how cold hardy they are. Also, these do much better well feed and well watered. They grow right along a river bed in the wild. People that under water and fertilize these are not growing them to their max potential.

Another interesting point about the two that I have observed. As larger, fully exposed plants Alfredii yellows a little in winter while madagascariensis doesn't in SoCal. A few that grow both have noticed this as well as myself. Alfredii greens up quickly in spring but it is obvious it needs warmer soil to look its best while madagascariensis stays dark green year round.

Len, I stated above, I don't have a clue, but since when is it wrong to ask questions? The question is this: half the report claim alfredii is hardy and cold growing, the other half claim they yellow, get damaged in light frost and just aren't hardy at all. If I were to listen to you and Matty, I'd pull the darn things now and move on. If I were to listen to the other reports, I'd plant a whole hedge of them. So who should I listen to? Why is there such a discrepancy in the reports? Could there be mis-labeling? Could there be genetic variations in the seed batches? Or could half of the reports be mistakenly over-optimistic and the observers are color blind?

Your exact wording was "People who think they have b Alfredii and see poor cold tolerance actually have beccariophoenix madagascariensis". That was a statement and the comment I was referring to. By no means would I say not to try and grow something. Go for it and I hope for your success as this is such a great plant. Once your plants gain size and exposure, I wonder if things will change? These are not emerging canopy palms, so for success they will need exposure sooner then later is my guess. At that stage I am guessing you will experience what some of the other CA growers have.

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Sutter Bob

My enthusiasm for alfredii has been tempered a bit with time.

Alfredii can indeed take intense sun and 100 plus dry heat here as seedlings no problem (if watered).

Frost, on the other hand is trouble here. My only survivors have been under cover.

Seedlings at least must have canopy. They do seem to tolerate cold if not directly exposed to frost.

I would certainly encourage more trials in northern California, but recommend frost protection at least for a few years.

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PANGEA EXPRESS

I lost 3 of my 4 seedlings to temps around 24f. Crossing my fingers my last seedling doesn't die

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Pedro 65

Many still are confused on what is Alfredii and what is Madagascariensis...below pics are Madagascariensis..

Alfredii doesn't have the beautiful yellow/ cream rachis and its leaf colour is quite glaucous blue/green.

Alfredii absolutely loves the climate at the Sydney Botanic Gardens and the specimen I saw is getting quite a size. ( Colin, Daryl or Wal do you have a pic to show from SBG ? )

Heres a pic of Madagascariensis here showing the vivid yellow/ cream and very very upright growth,( 10 ltr bucket and dog for scale) ... The Alfredii I saw at SBG had plenty of leaves laying near flat and had the very glaucous blue green colour, people learn through picture posts so lets see everyones Alfredii..sorry can't show mine coz I don't have any. :) Pete

post-5709-0-77509400-1365752035_thumb.jp

post-5709-0-69966500-1365752166_thumb.jp

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JEFF IN MODESTO

My enthusiasm for alfredii has been tempered a bit with time.

Alfredii can indeed take intense sun and 100 plus dry heat here as seedlings no problem (if watered).

Frost, on the other hand is trouble here. My only survivors have been under cover.

Seedlings at least must have canopy. They do seem to tolerate cold if not directly exposed to frost.

I would certainly encourage more trials in northern California, but recommend frost protection at least for a few years.

Bob, I tend to agree with you on this palm.

But I am thinking that my palms, purchased from 2 different people are 2 different var of palm.

2 do great in my garden... though they are planted in soil mixed with peat and are close to other plants..

The other 2 look like crap.

Jeff

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Eric in Orlando

I think B. alfredii is going to be a good palm for the warmer parts of central FL. I'm doing presentations at the Flower and Garden Festival at Disney's EPCOT and am promoting this palm. It is defintely more tender than Syagrus romanzoffiana. So far I have found the hardiness to be very similar to Phoenix rupicola. Because of its tolerance to long periods of cool I have been promoting it as a coconut substitute.

The windows form is a picky grower here on our well drained soil. When young, it is very iron and nutrient hungry. I haven't noticed this with B. alfredii or the windowless form. The window form has been the most cold/cool sensitive, B. alfredii the hardiest and the windowless form in the middle.

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Brahea Axel

My enthusiasm for alfredii has been tempered a bit with time.

Alfredii can indeed take intense sun and 100 plus dry heat here as seedlings no problem (if watered).

Frost, on the other hand is trouble here. My only survivors have been under cover.

Seedlings at least must have canopy. They do seem to tolerate cold if not directly exposed to frost.

I would certainly encourage more trials in northern California, but recommend frost protection at least for a few years.

Bob, I tend to agree with you on this palm.

But I am thinking that my palms, purchased from 2 different people are 2 different var of palm.

2 do great in my garden... though they are planted in soil mixed with peat and are close to other plants..

The other 2 look like crap.

Jeff

With the disclaimer that I am going just by what I've read so far, and I've had my seedlings for a month, I am pretty sure this palm will probably pan out just like bismarckia:

1) Must be planted in full sun

2) Doesn't like wet roots during the Winter

3) Is tender when young when grown fully exposed (forget all the under canopy ratings, those aren't really valid hardiness ratings)

4) Frost hardiness and speed increases with age

5) Will make its debut in places like Florida and the lower California/Arizona desert and will be more suitable for the warmer thermal belts of Northern California when 24" boxes become available at reasonable prices. Will probably never be suitable for those parts of Northern California that Mark Twain complained about.

This is a W.A.G. only. Don't harp on me because I've only grown three 5 gallon plants for about a month. But I've grown many things successfully that many people told me I was stupid to try. And for those people who tried and failed, that is not an excuse to stop trying.

Many still are confused on what is Alfredii and what is Madagascariensis...below pics are Madagascariensis..

Alfredii doesn't have the beautiful yellow/ cream rachis and its leaf colour is quite glaucous blue/green.

Alfredii absolutely loves the climate at the Sydney Botanic Gardens and the specimen I saw is getting quite a size. ( Colin, Daryl or Wal do you have a pic to show from SBG ? )

Heres a pic of Madagascariensis here showing the vivid yellow/ cream and very very upright growth,( 10 ltr bucket and dog for scale) ... The Alfredii I saw at SBG had plenty of leaves laying near flat and had the very glaucous blue green colour, people learn through picture posts so lets see everyones Alfredii..sorry can't show mine coz I don't have any. :) Pete

The pictures are wonderful, and very useful when comparing larger specimens. What about seedlings up to 5 gallon backyard nursery size? (Regular 5 gallon nursery stock is much, much bigger) Don't they look pretty similar?

My personal preference is for Alfredii as it is more coconutty and has a lot more horizontal leaves.

BeccAlfrediiPic_mature.jpg

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sonoranfans

My enthusiasm for alfredii has been tempered a bit with time.

Alfredii can indeed take intense sun and 100 plus dry heat here as seedlings no problem (if watered).

Frost, on the other hand is trouble here. My only survivors have been under cover.

Seedlings at least must have canopy. They do seem to tolerate cold if not directly exposed to frost.

I would certainly encourage more trials in northern California, but recommend frost protection at least for a few years.

Bob, I tend to agree with you on this palm.

But I am thinking that my palms, purchased from 2 different people are 2 different var of palm.

2 do great in my garden... though they are planted in soil mixed with peat and are close to other plants..

The other 2 look like crap.

Jeff

With the disclaimer that I am going just by what I've read so far, and I've had my seedlings for a month, I am pretty sure this palm will probably pan out just like bismarckia:

1) Must be planted in full sun

2) Doesn't like wet roots during the Winter

3) Is tender when young when grown fully exposed (forget all the under canopy ratings, those aren't really valid hardiness ratings)

4) Frost hardiness and speed increases with age

5) Will make its debut in places like Florida and the lower California/Arizona desert and will be more suitable for the warmer thermal belts of Northern California when 24" boxes become available at reasonable prices. Will probably never be suitable for those parts of Northern California that Mark Twain complained about.

This is a W.A.G. only. Don't harp on me because I've only grown three 5 gallon plants for about a month. But I've grown many things successfully that many people told me I was stupid to try. And for those people who tried and failed, that is not an excuse to stop trying.

>Many still are confused on what is Alfredii and what is Madagascariensis...below pics are Madagascariensis..

Alfredii doesn't have the beautiful yellow/ cream rachis and its leaf colour is quite glaucous blue/green.

Alfredii absolutely loves the climate at the Sydney Botanic Gardens and the specimen I saw is getting quite a size. ( Colin, Daryl or Wal do you have a pic to show from SBG ? )

Heres a pic of Madagascariensis here showing the vivid yellow/ cream and very very upright growth,( 10 ltr bucket and dog for scale) ... The Alfredii I saw at SBG had plenty of leaves laying near flat and had the very glaucous blue green colour, people learn through picture posts so lets see everyones Alfredii..sorry can't show mine coz I don't have any. :) Pete

The pictures are wonderful, and very useful when comparing larger specimens. What about seedlings up to 5 gallon backyard nursery size? (Regular 5 gallon nursery stock is much, much bigger) Don't they look pretty similar?

My personal preference is for Alfredii as it is more coconutty and has a lot more horizontal leaves.

BeccAlfrediiPic_mature.jpg

Axel are you sure this is alfredii, it looks like an adult window form to my eye...

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LJG

The pictures are wonderful, and very useful when comparing larger specimens. What about seedlings up to 5 gallon backyard nursery size? (Regular 5 gallon nursery stock is much, much bigger) Don't they look pretty similar?

My personal preference is for Alfredii as it is more coconutty and has a lot more horizontal leaves.

BeccAlfrediiPic_mature.jpg

From my iPhone this looks like Windows you are showing not Alfredii.

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Brahea Axel

The pictures are wonderful, and very useful when comparing larger specimens. What about seedlings up to 5 gallon backyard nursery size? (Regular 5 gallon nursery stock is much, much bigger) Don't they look pretty similar?

My personal preference is for Alfredii as it is more coconutty and has a lot more horizontal leaves.

BeccAlfrediiPic_mature.jpg

From my iPhone this looks like Windows you are showing not Alfredii.

The pic is labeled BeccAlfrediiPic_mature.jpg. If this is mis-identified, then I guess we really do have a lot of confusion as to what all these palms are. Anyway, this is the catalogue picture for http://sotropicalfoxtails.com/califcocopalms.html and I seriously doubt they would put the wrong palm on their website, but who knows.

They do have another picture on their site, maybe this looks closer:

BeccAlfrediiPicture3.jpg

Frankly, I am not surprised that you would confuse the picture with "Windows". For those who have current Palm Society Memberships, take a look at http://www.palms.org/palmsjournal/2007/v51n2p63-75.pdf, it describes the species in details. This was a very interesting read, as it describes the similarity of Alfredii with the other Beccariophoenix "Windows" species.

Apparently, unless you have seeds and an inflorescence, you will not be able to tell alfredii apart from "Windows".

ScreenShot2013-04-12at122458PM_zpsf4f533

What makes things worse is that, according to the authors "The discovery of B. alfredii adds impetus to the initiation of an intensive study of the genus throughout its range in Madagascar. It is possible that Beccariophoenix comprises more than two species. During the last few years we have heard rumours of several new populations of Beccariophoenix but these have not always proved to be the real thing. There is clearly much more survey work to be done"

So this article clearly supports the idea that there could very easily be more genetic variations we are not aware of, and that it is entirely within the realm of possibility that if you have an "Alfredii", it is entirely possible you don't actually have an Alfredii unless you saw the seed from which the palm came and your palm is actually blooming. Tell me where this reasoning is failing.

In case you have any doubt about the possibilities of frost where these palms are from, have a look at these photos: it's called a canyon, and cold dry air is going to drain into that thing. Looks like inland Southern California to me. Can you say "Palm Springs"?

ScreenShot2013-04-12at122941PM_zps7b321d

ScreenShot2013-04-12at122953PM_zps23cc52

Seeds:

ScreenShot2013-04-12at123028PM_zpsc22c92

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LJG

You are too much. You are the only one mentioning anything about being confused. No one posting in this thread has stated it but you. Maybe you have the issue. And your post proves it even more as you post an incorrectly labeled photo from some Rancho Soledad reseller and fall back on it being fact cause you found it on the Internet. How does a guy growing a plant for one month think he knows so much and want to argue it? Don't answer as I don't want this thread to get out of hand and have stuff deleted like the last thread you argued with Pete in or your rude comments about a local grower that were deleted by mods. I grow these palms and I know the differences. Someday stop by and I will show you how to spot the differences. It comes with growing experience. That is not an Afredii you posted.

Also a lot has changed since that Palms Article you just found and read. Those growing these plants longer then a month know there are now three known species with a possibility of a fourth. And Madagascariensis is no longer "Windows". Maybe hit the search feature here on PT to get help with this genus. Much has been discussed about it and it could help get you current.

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redant

Many still are confused on what is Alfredii and what is Madagascariensis...below pics are Madagascariensis..

Alfredii doesn't have the beautiful yellow/ cream rachis and its leaf colour is quite glaucous blue/green.

Alfredii absolutely loves the climate at the Sydney Botanic Gardens and the specimen I saw is getting quite a size. ( Colin, Daryl or Wal do you have a pic to show from SBG ? )

Heres a pic of Madagascariensis here showing the vivid yellow/ cream and very very upright growth,( 10 ltr bucket and dog for scale) ... The Alfredii I saw at SBG had plenty of leaves laying near flat and had the very glaucous blue green colour, people learn through picture posts so lets see everyones Alfredii..sorry can't show mine coz I don't have any. :) Pete

These Madagascariensis are stunning. Very slow but stunning looking and maybe the most coconut looking of the bunch based on you photos. Seems so little amount of pictures of mature ones of all these.

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richnorm

Many still are confused on what is Alfredii and what is Madagascariensis...below pics are Madagascariensis..

Alfredii doesn't have the beautiful yellow/ cream rachis and its leaf colour is quite glaucous blue/green.

Alfredii absolutely loves the climate at the Sydney Botanic Gardens and the specimen I saw is getting quite a size. ( Colin, Daryl or Wal do you have a pic to show from SBG ? )

Heres a pic of Madagascariensis here showing the vivid yellow/ cream and very very upright growth,( 10 ltr bucket and dog for scale) ... The Alfredii I saw at SBG had plenty of leaves laying near flat and had the very glaucous blue green colour, people learn through picture posts so lets see everyones Alfredii..sorry can't show mine coz I don't have any. :) Pete

I'm curious why you don't have alfredii Pete. Is it that they are just too similar so you didn't want to use the planting space? Easiest way to tell young alfredii is to look for purple in the petiole, at least that holds true in our climate.

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Brahea Axel

You are too much. You are the only one mentioning anything about being confused. No one posting in this thread has stated it but you. Maybe you have the issue. And your post proves it even more as you post an incorrectly labeled photo from some Rancho Soledad reseller and fall back on it being fact cause you found it on the Internet. How does a guy growing a plant for one month think he knows so much and want to argue it? Don't answer as I don't want this thread to get out of hand and have stuff deleted like the last thread you argued with Pete in or your rude comments about a local grower that were deleted by mods. I grow these palms and I know the differences. Someday stop by and I will show you how to spot the differences. It comes with growing experience. That is not an Afredii you posted.

Also a lot has changed since that Palms Article you just found and read. Those growing these plants longer then a month know there are now three known species with a possibility of a fourth. And Madagascariensis is no longer "Windows". Maybe hit the search feature here on PT to get help with this genus. Much has been discussed about it and it could help get you current.

I am going to ignore the impolite comments. Can you please explain the features that identify the pictures as "Windows"?

Here is another photo, this one is from PalmPedia and therefore is more reliable. This one seems to have a lot stiffer growth form. I'd like to understand what other features are there to correctly identify the picture from the file.

I did use the search function on PT. Can you provide some references?

4289909718_a07b8961d7z.jpg

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MattyB

The picture above is incorrect. That is the "no windows" form, not B. alfredii. It should be corrected on palmpedia.

Here was some info I posted a few years ago that might be helpful.

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/29904-beccariophoenix-breakdown/?hl=breakdown

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