Planting best practices

[LI_Pets]

In Fl 9A and have the nicest red clay U can have

Spoke to the Fl state plant extention folks and they said just make the hole do not amend the soil, but place pine chip round.

Since that soil will not drain well I'm second guessing them

What do you folks think?

Ps: how do you do spell check on this forum, using FF?

[sonoranfans]

Hi Bob,

Im going to say that how you prepare the soil will depend on the palm of interest. Some dont mind being wet for extended periods and some do. For example a Livistona Decora or saribus might be fine with that clay and its poor drainage. But a butia or brahea will probably not like it. I think some sabals will like that clay and some wont(like Causiarum). Because I have sandy soil... well just sand... I think you have great soil, but I would still ammend. I would probably get a pile of sand, and some mulch. After that, you might find someone here who grows in that red clay in florida. I cannot help there, but surely there are a number of palm talkers who could help. I'd start with Krishna who is near you.

[LI_Pets]

tks

[kahili]

I never amend the soil, but I do mulch a lot around the top each season-usually composted leaf mulch that breaks down fairly fast. I also have red clay, and so far have had good luck with planting Butias and Sabals in it. I think my oldest Butia is going on 7-8 years in the clay.

[DavidMac]

We have heavy red clay loam over most of our campus at FSU (Tallahassee,FL). Butias, Sabals, Canary Island Date, Saw Palmetto and Needle Palm seem to be OK with it.

[LI_Pets]

So it's not as bad an issure as I thought,

tks for the input.

[Kailua_Krish]

I dont have red clay (I have white clay and black loamish soil in the front with sand in the back) but what I will say is that the palms and tropicals growing in the clay area are much more vibrant and healthy than those in the sandy area. I agree with your local extention office that in all likelihood your soil is fine and just to mulch well since it will breakdown into the soil. If youre worried about it maybe test the drainage with a hose.

-Krishna

[LI_Pets]

funny you say that, I put 6" of water in hole, stayed there for two days.

[Palm Killer]

I would plant directly into the soil and top dress with an amendment. Dont use a planting mix you would creat a bowl affect and drowned the palm tree during the winter. Not to mention it would also cause the roots to circle and stunt growth for at least a few years once it finally hit the clay.

[Kailua_Krish]

Oh wow, maybe then ammend the bottom? I'll defer to someone with experience with that kind of clay in Florida. All I can say is that your plants are going to love that come the dry season and IMO I'd rather have your problem than that of nothing but sand.

-Krishna

[Kailua_Krish]

I would plant directly into the soil and top dress with an amendment. Dont use a planting mix you would creat a bowl affect and drowned the palm tree during the winter. Not to mention it would also cause the roots to circle and stunt growth for at least a few years once it finally hit the clay.

Central Florida gets very little rain in the winter Our wet season in in the summer.

-Krishna

[LI_Pets]

I bought several palms from MB Palms at the Leu show.

Mike the owner suggested making the hole about 4-6 " larger and using 2 parts of the clay soil to one part potting soil mix and fill.

Also said to take something like a pitch fork and poke the sides of the hole.

[swolf]

Have you dug down a few feet to see how the soil changes? Sometimes there can be poor soil (fill dirt etc.) for a foot or two and then faster-draining sand below it. In any event, you may also look into local sources of expanded shale, in addition to course sand, -- it really helps improve drainage and aerate the soil:

http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/newsletters/hortupdate/hortupdate_archives/2003/nov03/Expdshale.html

While the product is bagged and sold as "Soil Perfector" I was available to buy it (shovel your own into 5 gal. buckets) at a much cheaper rate from Conrad Yelvington. They have numerous locations in FL:

http://www.cydi.com/cydi12.htm

Steve

[LI_Pets]

Dug down all the same, but I'm removing turf (sod) and can build up around each hole, that good topsoil.

----

Wow there's a CYDI spot 5 miles away, called never heard of it?

Found local compost packing plant that will sell bulk.

I'll check them

[Shirleypalmpaws]

MattyB's got a thread titled, "Soil Information Map," with this link in his first post--> http://casoilresourc...davis.edu/gmap/. It looks like it nailed most of my soil. Just helpful stuff to know, I mean, it is to me.... lol. Hope it helps anyone else who may not have known about it.

[Alicehunter2000]

I would add that Washingtonia and L. chinesis seems ok with it as well. Get my cues from what grows in Bonifay, Florida.....lots of red clay.

[MattyB]

Here in CA, we've had success with "mound" planting, or raised beds when the native soil is poor draining clay.

[DoomsDave]

For what it's worth, clay does not necessarily mean bad drainage, or at least not bad enough to bother many palms.

Many palms like it a bit wet. I have clay here, and many palms do wonderfully well in it, especially after it's been amended. Clay holds water and nutrients very well, and doesn't leach like sand does.

There are a few palms that hate wet feet, like Braheas. For those, I'd do as Matt suggests and plant them on a mound of sandy soil.

DON'T JUST MIX SAND WITH CLAY. You'll end up with nasty concrete. Make sure to add lots of organics, and I mean a lot, like at least three cubic feet of UNROTTED stuff (dead leaves, etc.) to one cubic foot of clay. It'll rot down fast if kept wet.

If you can't or don't want to add lots of organics by burying them, you can do as Kahili suggests.

Keep us apprized. We always want to know more. Especially your successes!

[Phoenikakias]

For what it's worth, clay does not necessarily mean bad drainage, or at least not bad enough to bother many palms.

Many palms like it a bit wet. I have clay here, and many palms do wonderfully well in it, especially after it's been amended. Clay holds water and nutrients very well, and doesn't leach like sand does.

There are a few palms that hate wet feet, like Braheas. For those, I'd do as Matt suggests and plant them on a mound of sandy soil.

DON'T JUST MIX SAND WITH CLAY. You'll end up with nasty concrete. Make sure to add lots of organics, and I mean a lot, like at least three cubic feet of UNROTTED stuff (dead leaves, etc.) to one cubic foot of clay. It'll rot down fast if kept wet.

If you can't or don't want to add lots of organics by burying them, you can do as Kahili suggests.

Keep us apprized. We always want to know more. Especially your successes!

Why I have the impression that if I plant more tender palms like the crownshafted ones in clay soil in my very wet during winter climate with steady cool temps and occasional freezes it is like sending sheeps to slaughter?

[LI_Pets]

Here in CA, we've had success with "mound" planting, or raised beds when the native soil is poor draining clay.

can you please elaborate on that?

I assume if you do a rasied bed the palms need to be staked for support also.

Any pics?

-----------------------

Also had compost delivered for other plantings, and is is made up of cow manure and old mushroom dirt mixed.

Maybe that can be used ???????

[Phoenikakias]

Here in CA, we've had success with "mound" planting, or raised beds when the native soil is poor draining clay.

Why not simply dig a deeper and wider hole on the natural soil level and fill it with more porous material? In this way plant's roots will be more protected from the cold than being covered in the raised bed, which on its turn is exposed sideways to natural elements?

[_Keith]

Current thinking from most ag departments is now the same, removed the soil from the hole and fill back with the same soil unamended. Do you amending on top with compost, then mulch. Let the earthworms and soil bio mass do the rest.

First, amending the soil in heavy clay will create what amounts to a bowl that will hold water rather than drain in the same manner as the surrounding soil. You don't want more porous which will just hold more water, you want the same porous that will be the same as the surrounding soil. The other thought is that the plant will be there for many years and will have to send roots into the surrounding soil to survive and that a nice cozy planting hole will actually discourage the roots doing that. And Dave hit on a point as well, clay does not necessarily equate to poor drainage.

And then as Matty said, mound up a bit if in doubt. Here I do all of the above, and mound up 0 to 6 inches above soil level depending on the palm and how low the area might be. If I am planting in well drained spot, I plant right at soil level or maybe an inch above. In low area that are so well drained, I still plant the right palm that can take that, but I also mound up a bit.

[sonoranfans]

Here in CA, we've had success with "mound" planting, or raised beds when the native soil is poor draining clay.

Why not simply dig a deeper and wider hole on the natural soil level and fill it with more porous material? In this way plant's roots will be more protected from the cold than being covered in the raised bed, which on its turn is exposed sideways to natural elements?

If his soil simply doesnt drain, you have the equivalent of a bigger pot with no drainage holes. Unless there is a drainage path, this will mean that roots will not grow in the soil that stays wet for longer periods of time in the rainy season. Raised beds guarantee a drainage depth, even over concrete. It sounded to me like Bob has very poor drainage based on the perc test, 24 hours and no change in the water level of the hole. I think you either break through the water barrier with an auger or raise the bed.

[_Keith]

Here in CA, we've had success with "mound" planting, or raised beds when the native soil is poor draining clay.

Why not simply dig a deeper and wider hole on the natural soil level and fill it with more porous material? In this way plant's roots will be more protected from the cold than being covered in the raised bed, which on its turn is exposed sideways to natural elements?

If his soil simply doesnt drain, you have the equivalent of a bigger pot with no drainage holes. Unless there is a drainage path, this will mean that roots will not grow in the soil that stays wet for longer periods of time in the rainy season. Raised beds guarantee a drainage depth, even over concrete. It sounded to me like Bob has very poor drainage based on the perc test, 24 hours and no change in the water level of the hole. I think you either break through the water barrier with an auger or raise the bed.

You made me think of another important factor, which is working the soil. If you dig clay soil when it is wet, or slightly soggy the shovel will simple glaze the sides of the hole which will indeed make a pot that will not drain. The other rule is dig a big ugly hole, irrregular, rough sides. I start digging my hole with a shovel, and then move to a digging fork essentially breaking out sections more than than digging. After everything is planted I make my way around the hole first 3 to 6 inches from the actual hole and then again 12 inches or more, sinking the digging fork and just wiggling enough to crack the soil just a bit then removing the fork. This opens up more avenues of drainage. But again, you never work clay soil too wet or you destroy its internal drainage structure which will take months or years to correct itself. .

[sonoranfans]

Here in CA, we've had success with "mound" planting, or raised beds when the native soil is poor draining clay.

Why not simply dig a deeper and wider hole on the natural soil level and fill it with more porous material? In this way plant's roots will be more protected from the cold than being covered in the raised bed, which on its turn is exposed sideways to natural elements?

If his soil simply doesnt drain, you have the equivalent of a bigger pot with no drainage holes. Unless there is a drainage path, this will mean that roots will not grow in the soil that stays wet for longer periods of time in the rainy season. Raised beds guarantee a drainage depth, even over concrete. It sounded to me like Bob has very poor drainage based on the perc test, 24 hours and no change in the water level of the hole. I think you either break through the water barrier with an auger or raise the bed.

You made me think of another important factor, which is working the soil. If you dig clay soil when it is wet, or slightly soggy the shovel will simple glaze the sides of the hole which will indeed make a pot that will not drain. The other rule is dig a big ugly hole, irrregular, rough sides. I start digging my hole with a shovel, and then move to a digging fork essentially breaking out sections more than than digging. After everything is planted I make my way around the hole first 3 to 6 inches from the actual hole and then again 12 inches or more, sinking the digging fork and just wiggling enough to crack the soil just a bit then removing the fork. This opens up more avenues of drainage. But again, you never work clay soil too wet or you destroy its internal drainage structure which will take months or years to correct itself. .

Makes alot of sense, as the area of clay exposed to the water in the hole does help determine the transport rate, and roughing it up increases area, the transport(drainage flow) should increase some, also to do the same at the bottom of the hole. In my yard, I dug right through the top 2-3 feet of construction clay into the sand, worked great.

[LI_Pets]

Ok all 12 were planted yesterday, as it turns out only 3 had issues with the hard clay, in those we broke up the bottom about 10" mixed in some sandy/clay soil back filled with a 50/50 compost and original soil, broke up the sides of the hole a bit, watered in.

These are not big palms 6' at most.

The other parts of the property are sandy to sandy clay, so they were easier to plant.

About 6 were planted into 12" berms and those worked well only going into the original ground 6-8"

I have an ground sprinkler system that can be set any number of days and time of day and duration near these.

For now I set the zones near the new palms at every other day, 7am, 10 minutes.

I also installed a new zone that can accommodate drip heads if that would be good for certain types.

Any thoughts on watering?

Edited March 27, 2013 by LI_Pets

[sonoranfans]

Ok all 12 were planted yesterday, as it turns out only 3 had issues with the hard clay, in those we broke up the bottom about 10" mixed in some sandy/clay soil back filled with a 50/50 compost and original soil, broke up the sides of the hole a bit, watered in.

These are not big palms 6' at most.

The other parts of the property are sandy to sandy clay, so they were easier to plant.

About 6 were planted into 12" berms and those worked well only going into the original ground 6-8"

I have an ground sprinkler system that can be set any number of days and time of day and duration near these.

For now I set the zones near the new palms at every other day, 7am, 10 minutes.

I also installed a new zone that can accommodate drip heads if that would be good for certain types.

Any thoughts on watering?

When your first water do it with a soaker hose to make sure you get good root zone wetting. With clay soils I doubt 7-10 mins will do much with a sprinkler designed for grass. I would continue using the soaker or just leave the hose trickling at each palm for 20-30mins each every 3 days, then after the wet season hits, I would water once a week the same way. I think once roots are established the sprinkler system should be OK. Getting those roots established is the key and keepint he soil damp through the root zone is what is needed. Perhaps you could have a test hole to see how wet soil is getting just after watering and between waterings. A 1" pvc pipe could be used to "core" soil about 1' deep just outside the root zone to check for moisture. I would just look at the 9-12" mark. this will also help you to learn about the dry cycle of your soil. Best of success in growing your new palms!

[LI_Pets]

Went to HD and picked up a drip line 1/2" x 100' about $20

I just popped a hole where the plants were and inserted a little dripper.

Each drip will put out 1 GPH, rand for 4 hours today,

Was thinking to keep that for two weeks then every other day.

[sonoranfans]

Went to HD and picked up a drip line 1/2" x 100' about $20

I just popped a hole where the plants were and inserted a little dripper.

Each drip will put out 1 GPH, rand for 4 hours today,

Was thinking to keep that for two weeks then every other day.

sounds pretty good Bob. I always used 2 drippers per palm to make sure the wetting is good around the whole root zone. In clay the duration of watering and not the rate determines depth. In other words 1gph for 4 hours will wet deeper than 2 gal per hour for 2 hours, both being a total of 4 gallons, but the wet zone of the longer duration will have a greater depth and smaller radius. I still think you should "core" your soil 1-2 hrs after watering and just before watering to see how deep it gets. this experience allows you to understand your irrigation better and prevent a possible problem. I think every other day should be fine to start off, you do want a dry cycle to occur. I wold do that for 6 weeks then every 3rd day.