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LI_Pets

Help selecting palms in 9A FL

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LI_Pets

Hi, glad I found this site.


I just moved into central Fl a new one story home with nothing more than
builder stuff.



I have 3 areas that I want to plants grouping of palms.



1 rear of home full sun group of 5 they will be near a screened pool
and have solar panels so need to keep the hgt in this grouping at 20-25' max.

we were thinking a 2-3' CT Sylvester as one of this group.



2 rear of home full sun group of 3 can be taller.

maybe a Washingtonia as one



3 in front of the house on north side partial shade a group of 3.

least important area we spend 90% of our time in back areas 1 & 2

Just not sure which species will look good together, we would like several
types mixed in the groups.

tks

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Kailua_Krish

What part of central Florida? The palms that will grow vary widely by location. Welcome and it's nice to have another 9A'er here!

-Krishna

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LI_Pets

Leesburg, near rt 44 and 441 more or less

About 25-30 miles south of you I guess

Edited by LI_Pets

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Kailua_Krish

Canopy palms I would look into are Mule palms (xButyagrus), ribbon palm (Livistona decora), Livistona nitida, and Sabal causiarum. You may want to look at some of these instead of Washintonia because they get so tall. I love the Phoenix palms but they are variable in appearance so be sure to see what trees you are getting!

-Krishna

Edited by krishnaraoji88

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LI_Pets

The ribbon palm (Livistona decora) and Livistona nitida data says 40-50'

The sabal's I see a lot of and I like them, found a nursery that sells them for $65

Mules R hard to find at a good price know of any?

---

I'll be picking up everything myself.

Edited by LI_Pets

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sonoranfans

Bob, I think you have found a fellow 9Aer in Krishna... Here are some I like for your zone, I'll let Krishna comment with experience.

Big Fans:

1) sabal causiarum: big fan palm, most impressive cold hardy big fan, only a moderate grower

2) sabal Domingensis: big fan palm, grows quickly

3) sabal uresana: large bluish green sabal, grows well once trunking

Big feathers:

1) Canary Island date palm, CIDP, huge impressive palm, big thorns on petioles

2) jubutia or bujubaea hybrid, good size very cold hardy

3) mule palm x butiagrus, these are great palms for 9A, fast growing beautiful

smaller feathers

1) butia capitata, butia yatay, butia eriospatha(yatay and some capitata are blusih in color

2) phoenix sylvestris, silver green, pretty, but can be painful with sharp leaflets

smaller fans

1) brahea clara, blue green beauty

2) livistona decora, livistona chimensis, livistona mariae all great in 9a

understory

1) chamerops humilis(green and blue)

2) serenoa repens silver

3) trithrinax campestris

4) arenga elgleri, beautiful tough

All of these should be 9a hardy


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Kailua_Krish

That list is great for the most part! Sabal domengensis has gotten frost damage for me so I think causiarum is a much better choice. Another cool sabal is bermudana because it has very rigid sculptural fronds. Livistona chiniensis is only good under canopy, it gets frost damage pretty easily in the open. Brahea clara has done well for me but they're very hard to find and only some of them are the really icy blue color. I don't grow any of the trithrinax because of spines.

-Krishna

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sonoranfans

That list is great for the most part! Sabal domengensis has gotten frost damage for me so I think causiarum is a much better choice. Another cool sabal is bermudana because it has very rigid sculptural fronds. Livistona chiniensis is only good under canopy, it gets frost damage pretty easily in the open. Brahea clara has done well for me but they're very hard to find and only some of them are the really icy blue color. I don't grow any of the trithrinax because of spines.

-Krishna

I have seen Domingensis get frost damage at a young age, but some say it gets hardier as it gets bigger. In my experience its 2x as fast as causiarum. What size was your Domingensis when it frost burned? I would prefer a large causiarum, but it might be awhile for canopy from a small one.

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Kailua_Krish

Small, maybe a 5 gallon size? I had heard the same thing about it but decided to plant it in shade (frost protection). IMO large sabals look good in shade too because the leave get so huge and then I dont have to worry about the frost damage!

-Krishna

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sonoranfans

Krishna,

I ve read a few references claiming 9a and some 8b for sabal domingensis. And yet Ive seen palm talkers with seedlings get burned. I think it would be useful to know if this species can take frost when established as a juvenile. It is the fastest sabal Ive seen so far... I do have one that is 6' tall overall, t years from a strap leaf seedling. It is long of petiole and getting longer. I guess we will see as it is in the open, frost bait for next year.

Edited by sonoranfans

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Alicehunter2000

Might want to try Bizmarkias, A. totai, C. alba, L. saribus. Understory, don't forget about C. microspadix and radiclus. If I had alot of land I would go for trying A. cahune as well. Some folks have actually been successfull in growing D. decipiens (cold hardy crownshafted palm) in Florida and is one that is on my hit list as well.

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Kailua_Krish

Krishna,

I ve read a few references claiming 9a and some 8b for sabal domingensis. And yet Ive seen palm talkers with seedlings get burned. I think it would be useful to know if this species can take frost when established as a juvenile. It is the fastest sabal Ive seen so far... I do have one that is 6' tall overall, t years from a strap leaf seedling. It is long of petiole and getting longer. I guess we will see as it is in the open, frost bait for next year.

Mine did get toasted out in the open (same size as the other one), I have an experimental one planted waaay out back of my house. It regrew leaves fairly rapidly the next spring though. The one I was referring to in my last post was one people could see, though reading it now I just saw I didn't put that in at all. You'll have to forgive me, don't know where my brain is of late!

-Krishna

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Kailua_Krish

Might want to try Bizmarkias, A. totai, C. alba, L. saribus. Understory, don't forget about C. microspadix and radiclus. If I had alot of land I would go for trying A. cahune as well. Some folks have actually been successfull in growing D. decipiens (cold hardy crownshafted palm) in Florida and is one that is on my hit list as well.

Bizmarkias have been good if you can find the right one, they vary widely in cold tolerance and its really apparent in 9a. I have one i sprouted from seed in situ that got less damage than the queen palms in 09/10 but all of my others were wiped out. C. alba has not been a stellar performer for me and I really don't know why, it gets burned often but keeps growing slowly, hopefully it's laying down roots. I have a Dypsis decipiens (growing for 4-5 years now i think), and it grows very well albeit slowly. The hardest part about that one is finding a place the small ones don't die; I have 1/3 left. Attalea dubia has been a better choice for 9a, mine hasn't had any damage the past few winters. I'd love to try the Dade City Totai but have never come across it, the other acrocomias are not nearly as hardy. Livistona saribus is great but really looks better under canopy. C. microspadix is a great little palm but I've had a few problems with radicalis unless its planted in dense or artificial soil. Eric says it is a nematode problem with that species. Anyways, that's been my experience with those in the middle of the state!

-Krishna

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LI_Pets

Ok looked up all except jubutia or bujubaea hybrid, how big does it get,

Saw pictures look nice, what is the growth rate.

And where can I buy them?

About what do they cost?

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sonoranfans

Ok looked up all except jubutia or bujubaea hybrid, how big does it get,

Saw pictures look nice, what is the growth rate.

And where can I buy them?

About what do they cost?

The jubaea crosses with butia are quite a bit larger than butia, and with thicker trunks. they will take a long time(15 years?) to grow over 20' but will be quite a bit wider than butias. Im not sure if any of the florida hybridizers grow these anymore, especially jubutia(jubaea mother). Mark Heath and Tim Hopper are both members of this forum from florida, and both are experienced hybridizers, perhaps they have some with the butia mother(bujubaea). I would look them up and pm them to see what they have. I know Phil Bergman, owner of Jungle Music(in California), has some nice 15 gallon jubutia hybrids, but they are not cheap and they are pretty expensive to ship Fed Ex due to weight. I have a jubutiagrus I got from Tim Hopper that is nice. I think that patrick shaffer also grows a number of different hybrids(jubutia, bujubaea etc), but they will be really small, strap leaf liners. The growth speed is medium for jubutia, faster for the butia x queen(x butyagrus). the cost of hand pollinated hybrids is higher than other palms, 2-3x. Eric is selling some nice mules for a good price($65) in the sale section. The mules, butia x syagrus, are fast growers.

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LI_Pets

I have 4 areas that I want to plants grouping of palms.

1 rear of home full sun group of 5 they will be near a screened pool

and have solar panels so need to keep the hgt in this grouping at 20-25' max.

we were thinking a 2-3' CT Sylvester as one of this group.

2 rear of home full sun group of 3 can be taller.

3 in front of the house on north side partial shade a group of 3.

least important area we spend 90% of our time in back areas 1 & 2

4 a south facing protected area on three sides

Just not sure which species will look good together, we would like several

types mixed in the groups.

I started this thread with the above questions as to which palms would work well and look good together.

So of the ones listed below from my research would you folks chose?

Can't have all of them so I have space to start for 14 to save a bit of expense perhaps 2-3 can be the Sabals which are locally avaible 8-12' for $65, and the Fl state tree.

phoenix sylvestris

Canary Island date palm

mule

jubutia or bujubaea hybrid hard to get

butia capitata pindo jelly

butia eriospatha Wooly jelly

brahea clara hesper

livistona decora ribbon

Bizmarkias Small

livistona mariae red cabbage

Acrocomias totai

D. decipiens windmill fortunei

coontie

Caranday Copernicia alba or Trithrinax

campestris or wax

Needle

lady

europe fan c. humilis

Arikury Syagrus Schizophylla

Arenga engleri Formosa

everglades a. wrightii

Sago cycad Cycas revoluta

washingtonia

There are 4 others I'm thinking about but not sure yet and I think they are only avail small.

rhopalostylis baurii norfork island palm

kerriodoxa elegans White Elephant

licuala peltata

kentiopsis olivaformis

Pseudophoenix sargentii Buccaneer - Cherry

Edited by LI_Pets

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sarasota alex

Welcome to the forum Bob!

I would strongly recommend that you make Rhapis multifida a part of your collection. It seems to be the hardiest and in my opinion the most beautiful of all Rhapis.

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Kailua_Krish

Here are my thoughts on what youve looked at

Sabal palmetto- love these natives, attract wildlife hardy ect. be sure to look at Sabal causiarum and uresana too

phoenix sylvestris- good, very sharp leaves but attractive

Canary Island date palm- good, same as above, hybrids between the two are the most attractive large phoenixes

mule- cant say enough good things

jubutia or bujubaea hybrid hard to get- they arent too hard to find F2 or F3s, I would also look into Jubutyagrus. It grows extremely fast so even

starting from a smaller size is fine

butia capitata pindo jelly- be sure to get a nice form that you like because very variable in appearance/color, the plus size is the fruit and seeds

are edible

butia eriospatha Wooly jelly- not really worth the effort to get this one in FL unless youre a collector, looks like a green pindo. if youre looking at

another Butia species check out paraguayensis for a different look

brahea clara hesper- hard to find in larger sizes in FL, very variable in color, pretty slow growing. pretty but not for instant gratification

livistona decora ribbon- great landscaping plant, very attractive and tropical looking and lets sun through fronds, fast growing

Bizmarkias Small- will probably get major frost damage every few years and die during major freezes, good plant, just dont make it a major

central part of your landscape

livistona mariae red cabbage- I lost mine in the 09/10 freezes but I think its because they were small

Acrocomias totai- be sure to get the Dade City version or they arent hardy here

D. decipiens- good plant once you have your foundations in, difficult to make happy initially but once established easy

windmill fortunei- so ugly, dont even consider it. Look at T. princeps (blueish leaves) or T. martianus (tropical looking green) instead.

coontie- wonderful native cycad, these are a great landscaping plant and are trouble free

Caranday Copernicia alba- has burned for me but a nice plant in Gainesville exists

Trithrinax campestris or wax- too thorny for me

Needle- great native, more of a shrub than a palm, looks best with some shade and water but will grow anywhere

lady- as mentioned before also be sure to get R. multifidia, both are good landscaping plants if given good amounts of shade

europe fan c. humilis- I have a problem with these rotting out overall but the blue form is very attractive

Arikury Syagrus Schizophylla- will die in your climate without major protection, even the hybrid with the queen has died for me

Arenga engleri Formosa- great palm through slow, Arenga ryukyuensis is slightly hardier, needs shade & frost protection in our area

everglades a. wrightii- nice native, does best with wet feet and some frost protection

Sago cycad Cycas revoluta- personally I love these but there is concern about cycad scale (you should read up on this if a new grower), there are

lots of hybrids with the feather leaved ones (like C. debaoensis) that are nice. Also look at cycads in the genera

Dioon, Ceratozamia (I especially like these), and Macrozamia as there are some great trouble free plants

washingtonia- I like these but they get very tall very quickly, plant in the far back of the landscape if you chose these and keep in mind the

eventual trimming costs since they arent self cleaning (meaning they hold onto dead fronds indefinitely)

rhopalostylis baurii norfork island palm- as far as I know these are not heat tolerant enough for central Florida
kerriodoxa elegans White Elephant- I have 3 of these, they need to be planted under deep canopy in a warm area protected from wind and my

fingers are crossed every winter day, so far so good though so worth a try if you have an area for them
licuala peltata- not going to be hardy in your area, good pot plant though that you can bring in on the 4-5 nights of freezing
kentiopsis olivaformis- not going to be hardy
Pseudophoenix sargentii Buccaneer - you can get these large but it is doubtful that you can both provide them the sun and the frost protection

these will need

Just my thoughts on what youve looked at so far! I have no idea how long you are planning on living at this house so keep in mind that the best plant choices will vary according to that.

-Krishna

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Kailua_Krish

I should clarify when I say Trachycarpus fortunei is "so ugly" I'm referring to their appearance in central Florida. The ones in Atlanta and the PNW are stunning. Its just too hot and humid for them to look good here.

-Krishna

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LI_Pets

Can't thank you enough for your input, you are saving me a lot of $$ and grief.

As far as how long? 10+ years, just retiring here so a long time hopefully.

Few follow up points

jubutia or bujubaea hybrid hard to get- they arent too hard to find F2 or F3s, I would also look into Jubutyagrus. It grows extremely fast so even starting from a smaller size is fine.

Do U know where to get them?

butia eriospatha Wooly jelly- not really worth the effort to get this one in FL unless youre a collector, looks like a green pindo. if youre looking at another Butia species check out paraguayensis for a different look
ok

brahea clara hesper- hard to find in larger sizes in FL, very variable in color, pretty slow growing. pretty but not for instant gratification,
only saw 3g so far

Bizmarkias Small- will probably get major frost damage every few years and die during major freezes, good plant, just dont make it a major central part of your landscape.
Now I keep reading different opinions on this, I do see a few in the area??
any more input, we like it a lot, but no point if it will go down.


livistona mariae red cabbage- I lost mine in the 09/10 freezes but I think its because they were small
Can't find them yet.

Acrocomias totai- be sure to get the Dade City version or they arent hardy here
Any idea where to get them?

windmill fortunei- so ugly, dont even consider it. Look at T. princeps (blueish leaves) or T. martianus (tropical looking green) instead.

OK

Caranday Copernicia alba- has burned for me but a nice plant in Gainesville exists
Beleive it not HD has 6' for $110 w/one year guarantee

Sago cycad Cycas revoluta- personally I love these but there is concern about cycad scale (you should read up on this if a new grower), there are lots of hybrids with the feather leaved ones (like C. debaoensis) that are nice. Also look at cycads in the genera
Dioon, Ceratozamia (I especially like these), and Macrozamia as there are some great trouble free plants.
ok I research those

Since we are in the same area any suggestions on shopping these?

We are willing to travel within 6 hours or so.

.

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Kailua_Krish

I think I got my Jubutyagrus from the forum member Tim Hopper and I have been really happy with it. He may have hybridized some more recently so I'd try to get in touch with him. If you see large Bizmarkias in your area then go for it, I'd suggest getting a smaller one since they grow so fast and then if we do have a record freeze you wouldn't feel as bad about losing it, but thats just me being cautious. I have no idea where to get the Acrocomia from, Ive been sort of looking for these for a few years and have yet to see them. For the Copernicia, if its at that price go for it; mine is still growing, it just occasionally gets frost damage so I'm sure itd be fine. My suggestion is to head south to get some ideas. Leu Gardens (http://www.dasignsourcebotanicals.com, Jeff Searle's "Rainforest Collection" (you just missed his spring sale but he has them every spring and fall I believe, Redlands Nursery (Ellis), and the master of large palms is Ken Johnson. All of these people/nurseries are forum/IPS members and are great people to work with. Another person who might be able to help with plants that will grow for you is Mark Heath who has a lot of experience outside of Orlando. For cycads, the central Florida expert is Tom Broome and his website http://cycadjungle.8m.com has a lot of good info. Hope this helps!

-Krishna

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sonoranfans

Bob,

Looks like Krishna has given you all the species advice you need. I would add that you should consider that a palm garden might be best arranged in stages. I have found that taking a little time putting it together will allow you to visualize and see the possibilities. Awareness of those possibilities comes with time and investigation, talking with others. The first part of my current garden was the canopy, so I set out to get the canopy in place so that I could have those more sensitive palms that need protection from sun or frost. The larger palms for your area that grow faster could be part of that canopy. That being said, the slower growers are also the ones you want to start early, like sabal causiarum. Sabal causiarum is a magnificent palm, not to be confused with the florida native sabal palmetto. The causiarum is 3x as large and has big bluish green leaves, and eventually a thick, smooth white trunk, gorgeous. I second the Tim Hopper jubutiagrus, a very fast grower that is a beautiful and an effective canopy choice. Mule palms are more widely available, and are great canopy palms for 9a. We have 2 local florida guys(Mark Heath, EricSJ) who grow these very well. For color, serenoa repens silver/blue are hard to beat. You can get these shipped from woodlanders in SC, and they are $18 each plus shipping for a 3 gallon size. serenoas are best planted in groups of 2-3 and will eventually make a nice 6' tall by 10-15' wide grouping. I use these to create privacy in my yard, but they are quite decorative. they look great when set against a dark green arenga engleri...

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Kailua_Krish

I'm probably going to get shot for saying this but don't neglect plants other than palms. In Central Florida trees are invaluable for both cold protection and shade. This is another good thing to talk with Eric at Leu Gardens about since he is very familiar with many of the non palmy plants that grow around here. One type that I have recently gotten in to are evergreen Chinese magnolias like Magnolia macclurei. Bamboo also makes a great windbreak on the NW side of your property which is where the coldest winds come from.

-Krishna

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sonoranfans

I conjcur with Krishna, I do have a few evergreen trees to help with the winter cold: Live oak, yaupon holly(mid size windblock with pretty red berries good to 10F)), magnolia, and bambusa chungi barbarella( a great cold tolerant clumper, good to 20F). I also have a few flowering trees to keep the wife happy, tabebuia ipe, and ceiba pink princess hybrid. But my yard is dominated by palms....

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LI_Pets

Bamboo also makes a great windbreak on the NW side of your property which is where the coldest winds come from.

-Krishna

We have some bamboo on our list for a small zen garden, along with a yaupon.

Some of these bamboo's are really pricey, any suggestions on those and it would be our NW corner

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_Keith

I should clarify when I say Trachycarpus fortunei is "so ugly" I'm referring to their appearance in central Florida. The ones in Atlanta and the PNW are stunning. Its just too hot and humid for them to look good here.

-Krishna

Trachies did come to mind for northern exposure in the #3. grouping.

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sonoranfans

Bamboo also makes a great windbreak on the NW side of your property which is where the coldest winds come from.

-Krishna

We have some bamboo on our list for a small zen garden, along with a yaupon.

Some of these bamboo's are really pricey, any suggestions on those and it would be our NW corner

I have the blue bamboo "chungi var barbellata". It grows very fast, went from 3' to 10' in one year and still going

http://www.tropicalbamboo.com/images/B_chungii/chungii_web.jpg

the variety barbellata is a little smaller(25-30') than the chungi(35-40'), though it is plenty big. Clumpers are not invasive and wont spread all over on you. Watch out for the runners... Unfortunately the clumpers tend to be less cold hardy. Chungi is good to 9a though...

Edited by sonoranfans

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Kailua_Krish

I have Bambusa Chungi, Textilis, Pervariablis "viridistriata", oldhamii, multiplex, and Otatea acuminata. Bamboo is pretty expensive but the colors and effects it has in the landscape are quite dramatic. I'm going to get barbellata and eutuldoides 'viridivittata' when I can to use where I need some smaller bamboo. For a large bamboo in the NW that will block winds and create a towering backdrop its hard to beat textilis since its so cold hardy and large.

-Krishna

Edited by krishnaraoji88

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LI_Pets

We are going to go to Orlando Saturday to Leu Gardens plant show to learn and well......spend $$

I'll bring my punch list and pickup truck??????

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Kailua_Krish

Have fun! I wish I could go but have to be in Miami this weekend. Be sure to find Eric!

-Krishna

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LI_Pets

Is Eric the guy with the Mules?

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Kailua_Krish

That's a different Erik, I'm talking about the one who manages the collection at Leu and should be at the Leu plant tent.

-Krishna

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LI_Pets

Well we now have 11 palms after Leu's plant sale.

THe place was packed, got there at 9:30 so busy going to the vendors shopping we never saw the gardens.

I filled my pickup including the back seat.

I'll pop a list up later of my finds,

too bad U can't upload an image off your PC

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Kailua_Krish

Sign up for a photo bucket account so we can see pictures!

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LI_Pets

here's the list we bought most 4-6.5 feet

Canary Island - date palm
mule
pindo
bizmarkias
windmill
sabal causiarum
coontie (6)
rhapis multi
arenga elgleri
Sabal minor
silver saw
c. microspadix
seashore Allagoptera arenaria

Edited by LI_Pets

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Kailua_Krish

Those are some great choices! I think youll be very happy with them and theyre great palms to start out with!

-Krishna

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LI_Pets

Since you've been my guiding lite here, can I ask if any need anything special?

Sun/shade I think all are ok in the sun.

should I bubble drip all of them?

If so frequency? duration.

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Kailua_Krish

Ive written my experience below. The ones Ive labeled "needs water" are ones that may require a bit of extra TLC with water at the beginning (water needs will reduce drastically once established). I think you said you have clay so be careful not to overwater. Hope this helps some!

Canary Island - date palm: sun
mule: sun
pindo: sun
bizmarkias: sun
windmill: dappled shade (this has worked best for me with this one), needs water
sabal causiarum: sun
coontie (6): looks best in part shade but can handle anything
rhapis multi: deep shade, needs water
arenga elgleri: shade, needs water
Sabal minor: I think these look better in some shade
silver saw: sun
c. microspadix: shade, needs water
seashore Allagoptera arenaria: full sun

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Kailua_Krish

For some inspiration, here is one of my mules that I planted as a 1 gallon. These photos are almost exactly 4 years apart. This really shows what good water and soil can do for these.

DSC02033.jpg

17BF0858-70C0-414B-9FDE-CD7856EC3853-227

Edited by krishnaraoji88

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