East Palatka, Florida, Archontophoenix cunninghamiana

[Walt]

I have a buddy who lives on the east shore of the St. Johns River in East Palatka, Florida.

As such, he enjoys a higher USDA hardiness zone than areas not far from the river. I'd say he's a solid zone 9b, even bordering on zone 10a.

In 2005 I gave him a 3 gallon (fit in my car trunk lying down) Archontophoenix cunninghamiana palm, as I wanted him to trial it for me (he's not into palms). I told him to plant it on the south side of his house, beneath existing high oak tree canopy and about 50 feet from the river's east shore.

After more than seven winters now he says his palm has never been freeze of frost damage. He said even the winters of January 2010 and December 2010 didn't hurt it. That's great, as all of my A. cunninghamianas were hurt, some hurt bad, some even died later on. He's actually warmer than at my place (210 road miles to the south) but his daytime highs are notably colder. But it's nighttime lows that counts.

In 2007 I drove up to visit my buddy and took the below photo dated 10-17-2007. The palm had grown noticably in two years and had started developing trunk.

Yesterday I drove up to visit him, anxious to see the palm I gave him and had grown from seed. I was delighted to see how nicely it had grown.

Too bad he's not into palms as he could have so many more species. I had also given hime a silver queen in 2007, and it's grown nicely. I knew the queen would do okay there as there's lots of mature queens along the riverfront properties.

Above photo: A. cunninghamiana approximately two years after planting from a 3 gallon size. Note pier going out into river on upper left of photo, which indicates distance from river.

Above photo: A. cunninghamaiana about 5 years 4 months later from first photo.

[PalmatierMeg]

Beautiful. How anyone wouldn't get into palms after growing that is beyond me.

[Palmə häl′ik]

Cool. Does he fertilize them atall?

Thats funny cuz a few weeks back I was at SubWay in sinkhole country, Seffner, FL and seen these next door on the xoticplumeria property... Right around the corner from me and never knew it...

[Palmə häl′ik]

Cool. Does he fertilize them atall?

Thats funny cuz a few weeks back I was at SubWay in sinkhole country, Seffner, FL and seen these next door on the xoticplumeria property... Right around the corner from me and never knew it...

[Walt]

Beautiful. How anyone wouldn't get into palms after growing that is beyond me.

I agree. But what can I say. I have lots of palms I could give him to really make his place look like a palm jungle, but he's just not into palms -- or any other plants, shrubs, etc. I just chalk it up to its being his loss -- he just doesn't realize it!

[Walt]

Cool. Does he fertilize them atall?

Thats funny cuz a few weeks back I was at SubWay in sinkhole country, Seffner, FL and seen these next door on the xoticplumeria property... Right around the corner from me and never knew it...

I don't think he fertilizes the palm. When he first planted it he did (at my suggestion) get a bottle of Dynamite plant fertilizer and was fertilizing the palm. But for many years now I don't think he fertilizes it. He probably has good fertile soil next to the river, I suspect.

Those four palms in your photo look great. I really like the Archontophoenix genus. I have many of them planted.

[bubba]

Walt, I believe you should give hin a Royal and a Coconut to try for grins. It certainly appears to be a great micro-climate near the St. Johns. Thank you

[Walt]

Walt, I believe you should give hin a Royal and a Coconut to try for grins. It certainly appears to be a great micro-climate near the St. Johns. Thank you

Bubba: If my friend had any interest at all in palms I would gladly donate many more species of them for him to try, but he's an old man now and doesn't have much interest in anything but sitting all day and watching TV.

Still, the next time I drive up to visit him I may take a Archontophoenix alexandrae and Roystonea borinquena.

[Eric in Orlando]

I was just up there this past weekend. Near the river is a very warm microclimate.

Archontophoenix is a good one for there to expirement as they are also very cool tolerant so if the days don't warm up the palm dosen't suffer, unlike a coconut or foxtail.

[Walt]

I was just up there this past weekend. Near the river is a very warm microclimate.

Archontophoenix is a good one for there to expirement as they are also very cool tolerant so if the days don't warm up the palm dosen't suffer, unlike a coconut or foxtail.

I told my friend that being on the eastern shore of the river, he's on the warmest side, as the water moderates the NW winds that blow across the river (about one mile wide where he lives). Further, the river makes a 90 degree bend to the east not to far up the river from him, so he gets some benefit when the wind comes from due north or NW.

I could tell from the citrus species, Enterolobium trees, Norfolk Island pines, P. roebellenii et al. palms and plants I've seen along the river, that the river definitely had a climatic effect, at least a 1/2 USDA zone compared to inland areas at the same latitude.

Of course, I'm not at all surprised about the river's thermal effect, it's the same principle in my area with the larger lakes. My parent's live on a lake and never went below low 40s this winter, yet I had three nights at 32 degrees in my front yard and 30-31 degrees in some of the lower areas of my property.

With respect to central Florida nighttime lows during a radiational cooling event, I've said time and time again over the years: There's no substitute for large bodies of water to hold up nighttime low temperatures due to the thermal enertia of the water.

[DoomsDave]

Sitting around watching palms grow sounds like a great hobby to me . . . .

[Walt]

Sitting around watching palms grow sounds like a great hobby to me . . . .

Yes, Dave, but you don't sit around. You lie on your swooning couch and watch your palms grow!

Edited March 8, 2013 by Walt

[howfam]

I have a buddy who lives on the east shore of the St. Johns River in East Palatka, Florida.

As such, he enjoys a higher USDA hardiness zone than areas not far from the river. I'd say he's a solid zone 9b, even bordering on zone 10a.

In 2005 I gave him a 3 gallon (fit in my car trunk lying down) Archontophoenix cunninghamiana palm, as I wanted him to trial it for me (he's not into palms). I told him to plant it on the south side of his house, beneath existing high oak tree canopy and about 50 feet from the river's east shore.

After more than seven winters now he says his palm has never been freeze of frost damage. He said even the winters of January 2010 and December 2010 didn't hurt it. That's great, as all of my A. cunninghamianas were hurt, some hurt bad, some even died later on. He's actually warmer than at my place (210 road miles to the south) but his daytime highs are notably colder. But it's nighttime lows that counts.

In 2007 I drove up to visit my buddy and took the below photo dated 10-17-2007. The palm had grown noticably in two years and had started developing trunk.

Yesterday I drove up to visit him, anxious to see the palm I gave him and had grown from seed. I was delighted to see how nicely it had grown.

Too bad he's not into palms as he could have so many more species. I had also given hime a silver queen in 2007, and it's grown nicely. I knew the queen would do okay there as there's lots of mature queens along the riverfront properties.

Above photo: A. cunninghamiana approximately two years after planting from a 3 gallon size. Note pier going out into river on upper left of photo, which indicates distance from river.

Above photo: A. cunninghamaiana about 5 years 4 months later from first photo.

Walt. Is this palm you gave your buddy the A. cunninghamiana var. illawara? They are said be a few degrees hardier than the straight one. My buddy Matt in Fruit Cove, just south of Jacksonville had one for many years, recovering from temps as low as 22 degrees (F) a few times until it finally snapped in a big wind.

[Walt]

Re: Walt. Is this palm you gave your buddy the A. cunninghamiana var. illawara? They are said be a few degrees hardier than the straight one. My buddy Matt in Fruit Cove, just south of Jacksonville had one for many years, recovering from temps as low as 22 degrees (F) a few times until it finally snapped in a big wind.

No, it's just a regular A. cunninghamiana.

The first A. cunninghamiana I ever bought was sold to me as an illawarra. I bought it from The Green Escape online nursery (I think they went out of business earlier this year).

It was sold to me as a five gallon bare root palm. I kept it potted for about a year, stepping it up once. The following year I planted it out under high red bay tree canopy. It eventually developed about six feet of trunk. It was killed (long drawn out death) from a severe radiational freeze. I found it to be no hardier than a regular cunninghamiana, and I must have 50 or so in the ground (many, many years of cold experience with them).

I may be wrong, but I think it was concluded that the reason folks thought illawara was more cold hardy was because they were growing in protected areas with good overhead protection of taller palms and trees; hence, they were less suseptible to frost cold damage, due to the overhead canopy reflecting back down rising ground heat.

[Axel Amsterdam]

Hi Walt, did you take a then and now picture of the silver queen as well? I'd like to see the growth rate compared to the king.

Thanks,

Axel

[edbrown_III]

Mats a bit north of this fellow he has grown some others after this. I am just a bit north ofMat in Mandarin and tried the llwara at the same time ( mine perished- his didnt ) might be the gardener tho. This is going to force me to try this again in some protected place. Best regards Ed

[Mark Heath]

Mats a bit north of this fellow he has grown some others after this. I am just a bit north ofMat in Mandarin and tried the llwara at the same time ( mine perished- his didnt ) might be the gardener tho. This is going to force me to try this again in some protected place. Best regards Ed

Let me know if you're looking for one Ed, I have one here for you that is about 5 feet tall, pot included.

[Walter John]

What a great thread, seeing the success of a bangalow in a marginal area. I would say near the river helps.

[Walt]

Hi Walt, did you take a then and now picture of the silver queen as well? I'd like to see the growth rate compared to the king.

Thanks,

Axel

I took the below photo when I was up in East Palatka this past March. While his silver queen has grown well, it's not as tall and nice as my silver queen which is exactly the same age. Dave Witt of Orlando gave me many one-leafed silver queen seedlings back in January of 2002. I think I gave all but one or two away (when they were much bigger) to folks that would visit my garden (all of them living in more northern states or north Florida where they wanted to try a queen palm).

My buddy isn't into palms and he doesn't fertilize them, so that is probably why his hasn't grown as tall as my queen palm.

I think I have a photo of my silver queen palm the day I planted it (to replace a mature queen that I lost to Hurricane Jeanne). If I can find it I will post both a then and now photo of it.

As you can see from the below photo, my buddy doesn't even bother to keep his queen palm trimmed of dead inflorescence.

[edbrown_III]

Mats a bit north of this fellow he has grown some others after this. I am just a bit north ofMat in Mandarin and tried the llwara at the same time ( mine perished- his didnt ) might be the gardener tho. This is going to force me to try this again in some protected place. Best regards Ed

Let me know if you're looking for one Ed, I have one here for you that is about 5 feet tall, pot included.

thanks for the kind offer I will see if I can get down to see you real soon Best wishe s Ed

[Axel Amsterdam]

Thanks Walt, it certainly carries a lot of fronds.

Must be no lack of water in the soil. Does it rain a lot in this particular area?

[KrisKupsch]

A.purpurea is quite cold tolerant as much as A.cunninghamiana possibly if not more.

[Sandy Loam]

I am not surprised that there is an Archontophoenix Cunninghamiana (Bangalow) growing in Palatka. I have six of them growing in Gainesville in the northern Florida and have never had any cold damage. However, mine have only been in the ground for a couple of years and they gain size quite rapidly. Some of mine must be ten feet tall with more than a foot of woody trunk.

I believe my A. Cunninghamiana have seen the low 20s F (-7 C ?) or thereabouts on one occasion and were unphased. I just tell myself, "if it's going to drop to 22 F or below, then it's time to throw a blanket over them." I also keep n mind that the temperature will probably jump back up to 70 F/20 C the following afternoon anyway.

My A. Cunninghamiana are not the illawara variety. I have been told the regular King Palms are hardier than Illawara if only you can find the right altitude provenance from Queensland (according to rumour, the NSW Bangalows are not as hardy because they are not adapted to higher elevations in the same way, even though they are native to areas farther south).

I never ceased to be amazed at how strange this Gainesville climate is, with utterly freezing nights a couple of times each year down to as low as the high teens F/ -8C, followed by summer-like warm afternoons the day before and after. We wouldn't be having this conversation down in the tropical parts of southern Florida with all of its tender vegetation. Perhaps that is why Palmtalk never has anyone posting from Key West, Florida, sitting down there on the Tropic of Cancer.

[Tropicdoc]

The south shore of lake ponchartrain in New Orleans gets a nice thermal benefit. Probably 9b. I think the lake is like 30 miles across. There are trunking majesty palms there. I would grow kings and kentias under live oaks if I lived over there.

[Tropicdoc]

OK Sandy Loam.... I just looked at Gainseville climate graph. Your average highs and lows are equal to mine through winter. And, on average, you have twice as many freezing days as I do through winter. And you are growing Kings! I want your secret because I would love to have kings. I have 3 myolas but they sit inside of my heated greenhouse with my coconuts and heliconias.

[Tropicdoc]

OK, my bad, same website shows me a 2-3 degrees cooler than you with same number of freeze days.

[Sandy Loam]

Hey TropicDoc --

Your weather is probably similar to mine. Actually, if you were right in New Orleans, you would be a little bit warmer than where I am (well, perhaps not this year....sorry NOLA)

Bear in mind that I sought out what I believed to be an extra hardy king palm and, so far, it has been fine here. However, it has only been 2 years. A once a decade killer freeze will probably come along and wipe them out. Nonetheless, kings are advertised as a 28 degree palm, but I believe mine are more like a 22 degree palm. So is the king palm sold by Flora Grubb Gardens (website under 'the palm broker') called "Inge's Hardy King."

But here is an update on their winter tolerance so far. I recently checked the 6 of them and 2 were showing some damage in the form of leaf tip burn. It took a while to manifest itself.

The two with minor damage are the two which have barely any overhead canopy. The canopy makes a huge difference with these. My lowest temp this year was 26.8 F one night, but it has been one cold event after another this January. January was horrible this year. Perhaps that is why my kings saw no damage last winter, even though they experienced colder temperatures, albeit quite briefly.

PM me if you want the contact info for the guy who sold me my kings. He is in Florida, but the parent tree is in California and he was generating offspring from what he felt was the perfect king palm in terms of symmetry, grace and cold hardiness.

If you don't get below 22 most years, you can probably grow these ---- at least the kind I have.

[stevethegator]

Hey TropicDoc --

Your weather is probably similar to mine. Actually, if you were right in New Orleans, you would be a little bit warmer than where I am (well, perhaps not this year....sorry NOLA)

Bear in mind that I sought out what I believed to be an extra hardy king palm and, so far, it has been fine here. However, it has only been 2 years. A once a decade killer freeze will probably come along and wipe them out. Nonetheless, kings are advertised as a 28 degree palm, but I believe mine are more like a 22 degree palm. So is the king palm sold by Flora Grubb Gardens (website under 'the palm broker') called "Inge's Hardy King."

But here is an update on their winter tolerance so far. I recently checked the 6 of them and 2 were showing some damage in the form of leaf tip burn. It took a while to manifest itself.

The two with minor damage are the two which have barely any overhead canopy. The canopy makes a huge difference with these. My lowest temp this year was 26.8 F one night, but it has been one cold event after another this January. January was horrible this year. Perhaps that is why my kings saw no damage last winter, even though they experienced colder temperatures, albeit quite briefly.

PM me if you want the contact info for the guy who sold me my kings. He is in Florida, but the parent tree is in California and he was generating offspring from what he felt was the perfect king palm in terms of symmetry, grace and cold hardiness.

If you don't get below 22 most years, you can probably grow these ---- at least the kind I have.

Wow that's amazing that you're growing kings! I lived in Gainesville for four years (undergrad at UF) and know firsthand how cold it gets there. I remember in '10 there were a couple days where it didn't even get above freezing, the fountains started to freeze over, and the outlying rural areas got down to 12F!

There are a lot of microclimates though; there's a grove of Washingtonia and a couple Phoenix canariensis along Lake Alice that used to defoliate every winter, whereas a mile or so east at the house I lived in I planted small queens and a grapefruit which were never damaged. There used to be some small kings at the McCarty Hall palm garden on campus but I'm not sure if they're still there. Keep us updated on how yours fare!

Just so everyone knows what you're dealing with up there, my buddy took these pictures of icicles on the UF campus last month. North Florida gets COLD!

[Sandy Loam]

Wow. We had cold weather when the Polar Vortex arrived last month, but I wasn't aware that there been ice. I am pretty sure that there was no ice in my part of town. I have never seen ice in Gainesville in the decade that I have been here.

Yes, I am familiar with the McCarty Hall courtyard, but it seemed to me that most of the things planted there were pretty cold-hardy, like rhapis excelsa and phoenix reclinata. The exception was the coconut tree planted there. That really can't survive in Gainesville, so I am sure that it must have died by now.

I am not aware of anyone else who is growing King Palms in Gainesville. They are a bit out of place among the usual cold-hardy Gainesville palms that you see around town: Washingtonia Robusta, Syagrus Romanzoffiana, Butia Capitata, Phoenix Canariensis, Saw Palmetto, phoenix sylvestris, livistona chinensis, phoenix robellini, etc.

[stevethegator]

Yes the coconut and the bottle met a quick, frosty demise! But, one of our fellow palmtalkers re-did the McCarty garden and planted some rare stuff, here's the thread:

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/35170-palm-tree-plantings-at-mccarty-hall-at-the-university-of-florida-in-gainesville-fl/

The most impressive thing I remember when I visited last was the big Arenga (I still visit Gainesville frequently, heading down tomorrow in fact), that thing is huge! Have you tried any Arengas?

Sadly the massive "Gainesville" avocado was cut down, I think it was diseased or something. I can maybe check on what has survived when I'm there this weekend and give everyone an update.

[Sandy Loam]

Thanks for the link, SteveTheGator. I enjoyed it and must check out the McCarty Hall courtyard soon. I was particularly surprised to see the Australian tree fern there. I had heard that they were not ideal for Florida's intense sun and humidity, but perhaps not.

Yes, I have a couple of Arenga Angleri in my yard. They can take anything that Gainesville can throw at them.

For those just tuning in, we have digressed from the original topic of an Archontophoenix Cunninghamiana growing in Palatka in chilly northern Florida. I then added that I have 6 A. Cunninghamiana growing in even colder Gainesville, 45 minutes west of Palatka and farther inland. Everyone keeps telling me that my King Palms will eventually die here, but it's an experiment and I can keep everyone updated on the ultimate cold tolerance of these kings. I might throw a blanket over them once in a while for those exceptionally cold nights, but I will not be adding any heat (no Christmas lights) or other protection to help them make it. They are on their own.

[stevethegator]

Yes, sorry to hijack the thread! It's nice to see the one growing so well in Palatka, as has been mentioned proximity to the river probably helps. I think kings should be experimented with more in FL, especially the northern parts of the state as they are one of the its tropical looking palms that can be grown there IMO

[Sandy Loam]

Hello Walt. Do you have a more recent photo of the Bangalow palm planted in Palatka, Florida? I assume that it is still alive after more than a decade in the ground. I'm just curious because I am growing Bangalows about 45 minutes directly west of Palatka, FL and I seem to be the only one in town who has them. Thanks.

[NorthFlpalmguy]

I almost tried some A. Cunninghamiana liners last year just to see if I could keep them alive for a year or so but then backed out as I thought it was crazy... Good job to all of you for pushing the limits and succeeding! My area would definitely test their limits of northern Fl.

[Walt]

Hello Walt. Do you have a more recent photo of the Bangalow palm planted in Palatka, Florida? I assume that it is still alive after more than a decade in the ground. I'm just curious because I am growing Bangalows about 45 minutes directly west of Palatka, FL and I seem to be the only one in town who has them. Thanks.

Sorry, I haven't been up to East Palatka for more than two years now. However, I have no doubt that bungalow palm is doing fine due to the nice microclimate it's growing in. If I get back up to East Palatka I will post an updated photo. I feel the palm is getting close to producing seed.

[Bill H2DB]

Does he live in that area south of the bridge , and just east-ish of US17 ?

I cruised through there last Fall , one day while passing thru Palatka , as I had thought for years that it might be

a good , but small, microclimate .

I did not see anything , but did get a few stares from the neighbors .

If he is to the west of 17 ,however , well that was next on my list, maybe this summer .

The St Johns is very wide there . Downstream (NE) heading towards Jax , there's a power plant that may provide some

additional heat via cooling water further downstream .

[Walt]

Does he live in that area south of the bridge , and just east-ish of US17 ?

I cruised through there last Fall , one day while passing thru Palatka , as I had thought for years that it might be

a good , but small, microclimate .

I did not see anything , but did get a few stares from the neighbors .

If he is to the west of 17 ,however , well that was next on my list, maybe this summer .

The St Johns is very wide there . Downstream (NE) heading towards Jax , there's a power plant that may provide some

additional heat via cooling water further downstream .

He lives north of the bridge, but south of where the river turns east. So, he has the river moderating effect from the west and the north.

He lives on Cypress Drive in the community of Palm Port. In the Google street scene below, his is the small house straight ahead with the chain link fence around it, with a Butia capitata palm at each front corner.

To the left of the house you can see the oak tree the bungalow palm is planted beneath. You can make out part of the trunk of the bungalow palm by magnifying the photo and/or moving around. As you can see, being in proximity of the river, on the south side of the house and under a live oak tree definitely provides a good microclimate. I told my buddy Bill that I'm sure he's the only resident in Palm Port with an Archontophoenix cunninghamiana.

Front of my friend's house:

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.683332,-81.627579,3a,90y,237.46h,71.59t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s0h7GxOiDxC8SJ13Y8YuRtA!2e0

Cypress Drive in relation to the river:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/East+Palatka,+FL/@29.691186,-81.6240584,15z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x88e66313edb55117:0x8ac2335ddd2054bd

[Bill H2DB]

OK . I see , thanks.

That's quite a fortuitous location for sure.

[Lou-StAugFL]

There is also a large one on Saragossa Street in St. Augustine. I have one in my yard too that has been in the ground about a year and a half.

Here is the Google Maps link...

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.895544,-81.320002,3a,75y,200.87h,89.56t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sdnBAzoCF4e5vWny7iiSugg!2e0

[Sandy Loam]

Have you acquired any recent photos of your friend's Archontophoenix Cunninghamiana in Palatka?  It must be getting quite tall by now --- or may be dead since Palatka is so far north in Florida.   

Attached are two photos of what is likely the largest of my six Archontophoenix Cunninghamiana growing in Gainesville, way up in northern Florida not far from Georgia.  In the first photo, the eleven year old child illustrates the size of the tree.  The same child in the second photo shows how tall the woody trunk is becoming after about three years in the ground.  (Click photos to enlarge)

I will be surprised if my Bangalow palms survive another five or six years in my climate because we have two or three nights ever winter that are killer cold.