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Great updates David! Those S. causiarium rock the heavens and make the grounds tremble! Wow!

Try to leave a sunny spot open I have something for you.

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Collectorpalms

While it doesn't seem plausible that you would see that cold again, statistically its overdue... Cold snaps along the gulf are unpredictable, but they do happen in history with regularity. There is often a lull in cold weather, with many years well above zone normals, only to be decimated with one below normal spell. The cold events along the Gulf are wind events ( advective). In otherwords, not only will it be cold but it will be windy, a 6 ft fence and a canopy is not going to help, the wind will blow right through any protection. Since your right at the coast, there will be a strong pressure gradient, and the wind will be stronger than inland. This means that most winters you probably wont even get a frost because there will always be a breeze.

I understand the gratification of an instant canopy, but in a few years you might wish that you have saved that space for something more hardy. Speaking from experience, and on a small 1/3 acre lot, wished that I had planted all mules, but cant because I used some queens instead and now I am out of space. Or I wished that all my washingtonia were hyrbrids or filifera instead of a mix of pure robusta to filifera and everything in between.

would give all the palms a good prune every June 1st. I have seen in Texas that a strong cat 1 ( winds over 100mph) knock the heads off. Hurricane Claudette did that in Palacios, and Ike did that along Galveston Bay. While maybe there were a handful it was the ones that were in open fields without buildings and other trees to slow the wind. Its also possible that there was a weak spot from cold or fungus that was a factor.

Since the cold of feb 2011, I have seen two Mexican Fan Palms locally loose their heads almost a year or two later during a strong wind because they probably had a soft spot from freeze damage.

Edited by Collectorpalms

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Alicehunter2000

Thanks for the comments. I feel comfortable with the palms that I have listed as far as cold hardiness goes. Frank...what you got up your sleeve? Here is an updated list.

3- mules

3-W. robusta (probably some hybridization)

3- L. decora

1- S. causiarum

1- Parautis

3- Queens

1- S. urseana

1- C. alba

1- P. sylvestris x canary

1- P. roeb. hybrid

1- L. saribus

1- L. nitida

Here is the revised layout. I realize some palms may be touching which is ok for a jungle look. There are reasons for the way I've laid it out....but am still open to ideas. The circles are the trunks not the crown spread. Each line going from left to right is 4 ft......Each line going up and down represents 5 ft. .... There is overlap between the images.

post-97-0-99391600-1358893926_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-05010300-1358893940_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-18754000-1358893948_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-14560100-1358893963_thumb.jpg

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Alicehunter2000

Maybe this is easier to understand

post-97-0-57849800-1358895607_thumb.jpg

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_Keith
While it doesn't seem plausible that you would see that cold again, statistically its overdue... Cold snaps along the gulf are unpredictable, but they do happen in history with regularity. There is often a lull in cold weather, with many years well above zone normals, only to be decimated with one below normal spell. The cold events along the Gulf are wind events ( advective). In otherwords, not only will it be cold but it will be windy, a 6 ft fence and a canopy is not going to help, the wind will blow right through any protection. Since your right at the coast, there will be a strong pressure gradient, and the wind will be stronger than inland. This means that most winters you probably wont even get a frost because there will always be a breeze.

I understand the gratification of an instant canopy, but in a few years you might wish that you have saved that space for something more hardy. Speaking from experience, and on a small 1/3 acre lot, wished that I had planted all mules, but cant because I used some queens instead and now I am out of space. Or I wished that all my washingtonia were hyrbrids or filifera instead of a mix of pure robusta to filifera and everything in between.

would give all the palms a good prune every June 1st. I have seen in Texas that a strong cat 1 ( winds over 100mph) knock the heads off. Hurricane Claudette did that in Palacios, and Ike did that along Galveston Bay. While maybe there were a handful it was the ones that were in open fields without buildings and other trees to slow the wind. Its also possible that there was a weak spot from cold or fungus that was a factor.

Since the cold of feb 2011, I have seen two Mexican Fan Palms locally loose their heads almost a year or two later during a strong wind because they probably had a soft spot from freeze damage.

The severe arctic blast happen on average every 20 years, or so. They last super major event was 1989. Some say that was a 100 (or more) year freeze event. It certainly broke every all time record here, but 1963 was close, and 1983 was bad. And that is the other thing, it seems like when they happen it can be a string of a few cold years. Our last bad freeze was 2010, and it was right on cue 21 years after 1989. So, maybe we are out of the woods for another 20 years. Who can say. Of the palms above all but 2 or 3 would have sailed through the 2010 freeze. I have quite a few of them and they were not bothered long term.

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Collectorpalms

I Looked back at roughly 133 years of weather data from the eastern US Gulf Coast, specifically Pensacola, since it had the longest data I could find, and it is also right on the water. if you narrown down, killer freezes and when the temperature goes to 14F or below for a zone 9 location, you end up with 14 events. Winters of 2010 and 2011 were not considered to be out of ordinary as the low was 23F.

1889

1894

1895

1899

1940

1951

1962

1963

1966

1977

1982

1983

1985

1989.

Honarable mentions would be 1901 at 17f, 1933 at 17F, and 1996 a 15F and 17F event.

Edited by Collectorpalms

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Alicehunter2000

Project delayed to the end of March so that Fishbranch can do a good rootprune on the S. causiarum. I bought a pencil compass today so that I could draw crown diameters on the plans. Also measured power lines from the back fence, I have 3 more feet beyond the fenceline. Putting a few tweaks here and there.

It is very hard to find information regarding average crown diameters for various mature species. This would be good information to have either on this web site or Palmpedia. It would give landscape architects and planners a good source for this information.

In an effort to shop cost, I looked at other palms that were available including this palm from Fishbranch that was considered. I decided against it, in favor of the large silver P. sylvestris x canary hybrid that was featured earlier in this thread. It is a monster!

post-97-0-90102000-1358979365_thumb.jpg

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sonoranfans
Project delayed to the end of March so that Fishbranch can do a good rootprune on the S. causiarum. I bought a pencil compass today so that I could draw crown diameters on the plans. Also measured power lines from the back fence, I have 3 more feet beyond the fenceline. Putting a few tweaks here and there.

It is very hard to find information regarding average crown diameters for various mature species. This would be good information to have either on this web site or Palmpedia. It would give landscape architects and planners a good source for this information.

In an effort to shop cost, I looked at other palms that were available including this palm from Fishbranch that was considered. I decided against it, in favor of the large silver P. sylvestris x canary hybrid that was featured earlier in this thread. It is a monster!

attachicon.gifKen Johnson 004.jpg

wow david that sylvestris x canary palm is a monster! The crown diameter on a big healthy CIDP can be 25-30', though the ones I see in florida arent as massive or healthy as those I saw in arizona. The sabal Causiarum will be 25+'. the livistonas less, maybe 10-18' depending on species. I think Saribus crowns are smaller than the nitida and decora. Washie robustas are small, not more than 10', but I have seen some big fillabustas(my neighbor has one with a crown more than 15' across) and fillabustas like florida if in well drained soil. Copernicia alba will be ~10-12' across, I have one of those with 5' of trunk. Im not sure about mules, I'd ask mark.

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Alicehunter2000

Thanks Tom, I came to the same conclusion concerning most of the diameters. Partially from photo's, partially from internet sources such as Jungle Music website and N. California Palm Society website.

Still having trouble finding an installer around my area. But hopefully located someone today.

Ken sent me pics of Fishbranch's rootprune of the Sabal causiarum. Can't wait to see this puppy in my yard!

post-97-0-90114600-1359151605_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-22250400-1359151618_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-51116800-1359151628_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-22123400-1359151640_thumb.jpg

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sonoranfans
Thanks Tom, I came to the same conclusion concerning most of the diameters. Partially from photo's, partially from internet sources such as Jungle Music website and N. California Palm Society website.

Still having trouble finding an installer around my area. But hopefully located someone today.

Ken sent me pics of Fishbranch's rootprune of the Sabal causiarum. Can't wait to see this puppy in my yard!

attachicon.gifJan 24, 2013 002.jpgattachicon.gifJan 24, 2013 006.jpgattachicon.gifJan 24, 2013 007.jpgattachicon.gifJan 24, 2013 009.jpg

WOW what a beast that palm is! that is a prize palm in any zone! :yay: trunk looks 30"+ across already and it just starting to get big...

Edited by sonoranfans

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redbeard917

post-97-0-94924300-1355377063_thumb.jpg

FWIW, and I have done this before, a quick blast from a pressure washer will turn these rocks white again, the same as with a sidewalk. I like the really gnarly ones too. They remind me of where the Econfina cuts into the limestone.

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Alicehunter2000

Tom, was on the palm "bucket list". Glad to find one that I can enjoy in my lifetime.

Lucas, hard to find the real holey stuff...when you do it is quite expensive. I've got my eye one three select pieces off Hwy 98 in Panama City in front of a closed mexican restaurant.

Paurotis Palm...not sure if this is the exact one I'm getting....but one around this size...(8')

post-97-0-18324600-1359321390_thumb.jpg

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Alicehunter2000

Ken's Copernica alba 20'.....

post-97-0-76611900-1359322553_thumb.jpg

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Alicehunter2000

Ken's S. urseana.........post-97-0-20595900-1359324736_thumb.jpg

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sonoranfans

Looking good david! And the warm weather is just around the corner to launch them off! The uresanas are faster than I thought. My 2 year old from a strap leafer just hit 5' overall... That paurotis looks nice, those are nice to cut wind, give some block. Just down the street from my place are a couple that are over 15' tall and 15' wide, alot bigger than I thought they'd get.

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Alicehunter2000

Thanks for the size information....helps in the layout design.

Decided after looking at crown size to ditch 1 Queen and to replace with another C. alba.....something like this...post-97-0-36982300-1359640365_thumb.jpg

In other news....the form boards for the concrete foundation are being put down, expect to have that finished this afternoon. Plumbing will start Monday of next week.

A couple of pressure design ratings on windows and garage door needed to be tweaked .....should have building permit today. :yay: .........FINALLY!

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sonoranfans
Thanks for the size information....helps in the layout design.

Decided after looking at crown size to ditch 1 Queen and to replace with another C. alba.....something like this...attachicon.gifCopernicia Alba.jpg

In other news....the form boards for the concrete foundation are being put down, expect to have that finished this afternoon. Plumbing will start Monday of next week.

A couple of pressure design ratings on windows and garage door needed to be tweaked .....should have building permit today. :yay: .........FINALLY!

I am always in favor of ditching queens in florida, they are water and fertilizer pigs and hard to grow right in sandy soil with our sporadic rainfall. C alba is a nice palm, or to keep the feathers going another mule would be nice. My juvenile mule palm(about 8' tall overall) is a great looking palm, and they are more cold hardy than queens, or c alba.

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Alicehunter2000

Getting 3 of these 25 footers to help block the large utility pole on the right side.....post-97-0-46025300-1359952678_thumb.jpg

Checking out the concrete forms construction...getting a feel for the house. Hope to have concrete pour later in the week after plumbing rough-in.post-97-0-46297900-1359952887_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-38719000-1359952919_thumb.jpg

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WestCoastGal

How exciting to see the footings going in! It's really on it's way. I remember how thrilled we were to see our home being built from the ground up (even if it was thru a developer and one of their models not custom, unlike yours). I have to say developing a landscape plan and seeing it being executed is equally as exciting though. I love that C. Alba. It has such an interesting trunk pattern. Did some research on them after seeing your photo. We're trying to keep our palms in the 20-30 foot tall range otherwise would be adding it to our landscape plan now. Wish more palms in our zone range fell into that category. If I had two wishes on what genetics could do for palms, the first would be to make more of the higher temperature zoned ones I love more cold hardy, and the second would be to create dwarfs of some of the really tall ones I like. Oh well. Maybe some day. Anyway enjoy checking in your house and landscaping every so often to see how you are progressing. Hope you keep good weather on your side. Can't wait til our cold weather here is behind us.

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amazon exotics

Fishbranch has GREAT palms. I've known John for years and they are good people.

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Xerarch

Wow that "soil" really is just straight up sand, I guess that's not uncommon for Florida, especially so close to the coast. That is going to create some unique watering and fertilizing issues. Frequent, short durations for water during dry season, also frequent, low quantity fert apps. I'm sure that's the norm around there though.

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WestCoastGal

David, don't know if you get DIY Channel but they are airing Vanilla Ice Project (eps air on Sunday with some repeats on Sat). This season he is redoing a house in Florida with some similarities to your plan. One story, with what he's turned into an uncovered U-shaped back courtyard. It was covered previously and very dark inside as a result, so he opened the patio area up to the air to provide more natural light. He's doing a pool in the courtyard that extends into the backyard, so larger footprint than yours, but kind of free-form as I recall. On the Raising the Roof episode he adds an observation deck--I think you said you were postponing doing one but wanted to add it later. At some point they will landscape. Curious what palms they will plant. This Sunday they aired the 1st (roof) and 2nd (pool) episodes and if I'm not mistaken the 2nd one will air next Sunday along with a new episode 3. They usually repeat the prior week's episode along with the newest one. Not sure what episodes they will show come this Saturday, maybe both 1 and 2. Anyway thought I'd mention it in case you want to check it out. When does your foundation get poured?

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_Keith

David, please keep us (me) updated on the exact date. I cleared my schedule to be there. Can't wait.

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Alicehunter2000

Debbie, yes it is very exciting to see things actually starting to come together. Currently the form boards have been put down and the rough plumbing has been installed. Should get a form board inspection this week to make sure that my foundation will be within the setbacks. Just about used every square foot of allowable building space trying to keep the home a single story structure. Maybe pour concrete this week if the weather permits.

I have seen the Vanilla Ice project before, but not that episode. I will try and catch it, that Ice Ice baby can really renovate a house. lol. On your other comment....I would love to be able to grow crownshafted palms....will attempt Dypsis deciphens in the high sun area on the South/Front flowerbed. I should have excellent drainage.

Xerarch, yes strait up sand.....or as we like to call it "Sugar Sand". It squeaks when you walk on it, and although most of Florida is sandy.....it ain't sandy like this. I have ammended the soil as seen earlier in the thread. I also plan to do drip irrigation to help keep things going.

amazon exotics, Fishbranch's owner, as Ken has informed me, is an IPS member, so I don't mind talking about them here. It would be nice if they posted, but they are aware of the thread and are providing some really nice looking colder hardy palms. They seem very easy to work with.

Keith, we are currently trying to move the date to April 6th due to the Easter holiday the weekend before. I don't know if Ken has sent you a picture, but I've got dibs on this one.....lol. For those of you who don't know, Keith and I will both be getting a C. alba similar to this one.

post-97-0-17783400-1360647598_thumb.jpg

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Alicehunter2000

post-97-0-27096400-1361749506_thumb.jpg

First a picture for Ken......35 lb. Black Drum caught on my beach, two weeks ago. The guy used dead shrimp for bait.

post-97-0-23431100-1361749684_thumb.jpg

Concrete is down! Pool this week! Next week.....framing begins!

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Alicehunter2000

post-97-0-11486600-1361749868_thumb.jpg

This is the size of my backyard planting area.

Visited Camp Helen State Park today......approx. 5 miles away from future home.

Camp Helen is on Lake Powell at Inlet Beach. It is a "Coastal Dune Lake" . Freshwater lake that is breached by saltwater during storms. It is an unusual ecosystem found in very few places around the world.

post-97-0-92120500-1361750375_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-45860800-1361750484_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-67425600-1361750526_thumb.jpg

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Alicehunter2000

post-97-0-48510000-1361750649_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-25053500-1361750695_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-78188700-1361750765_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-59945600-1361750819_thumb.jpg

Areas around the lake.

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Alicehunter2000

As we were driving back along Hwy 30a....we saw these unusual clouds over another coastal dune lake.....they turned out to be hailstorm clouds....note the dime sized hail on the windshield.

post-97-0-09187900-1361751364_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-86028800-1361751384_thumb.jpg

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WestCoastGal

Congrats on the new pad. Look forward to seeing photos of the pool as it goes in. How deep again is your yard at the shortest distance to the fence? I think we are 25 and thinking yours looks close to that so it will be an interesting comparison for us especially as you do your landscaping.

I was looking back through some of your photos and was wondering if you had any idea how old your Sabal causiarum in #209 might be? A fellow PT member suggested one for our backyard and I know they grow slow so trying to get a feel for how slow. We do love the canopy on them. Any guess on the canopy diameter? Thanks. Looking good there and looks like you've been having some fun there as well.

BTW am I only seeing 2 mules on your plan above instead of 3?

Edited by WestCoastGal

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Ken Johnson

Drum are fun to catch and good to eat. Thanks!

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_Keith

As we were driving back along Hwy 30a....we saw these unusual clouds over another coastal dune lake.....they turned out to be hailstorm clouds....note the dime sized hail on the windshield.

attachicon.gifDSCN0474.JPGattachicon.gifDSCN0475.JPG

You guys have some spectacular storms and views of the them as well. I always liked one good stormy night when we vacationed there.

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Mark Heath

congrats w/ the pad being poured. I see what you were talking about as to having to plant each one by order. April 6th and 7th will provide a lot of pics for all the palm peeps here! Can't wait to pull up to your place on the 6th! Text me your address.

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Ken Johnson

I don't want to jinks anything here but the time is nearing for palms to travel. Every now and then my palms need a little road trip to give them a new perspective on life...lol. This will be a long one. About 650 miles. It will expand the bounds of my territory by several hundred miles!

Better get the oyster shucking knife out. B)

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Gallop

Drum?? It gets better than that. It almost that time of year again. I caught this 104lb cobia in your back yard David a couple years back. We do it every year launch in Pensacola a start heading East.

post-1473-0-06588400-1362525944_thumb.jp

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_Keith

You know David, you might be launching the first Northern Gulf Coast Annual PRA.

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Alicehunter2000

WCG, the distance from the back of the house to the fenceline at its closest point is a mere 20'. Here is the latest pictures of the planting area. They framed it to this point in 2 days! :o Unbelievable how fast the framing crew is....and very good quality work.

post-97-0-17251700-1362889335_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-26174300-1362889403_thumb.jpg

This is how they are going to access the area.....

post-97-0-06110100-1362889496_thumb.jpg

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Alicehunter2000

The pool area is starting to take shape. The pool guys are now waiting until the framing crew is completed and the roof trusses have been placed. This should occur next week if the weather holds up.

Here is the pool area......post-97-0-75091900-1362889769_thumb.jpg

another anglepost-97-0-51720300-1362889815_thumb.jpg

Backporch viewpost-97-0-48382100-1362889871_thumb.jpg

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Alicehunter2000

The Sabal causiarum is probably 15+years old....but that would be my guess...really not sure. It would probably be a slower grower for you in Cali as Sabal's in general are very slow out there. The diameter should be around 20 ft.

Very good observation on the Mule palm.....the big one is going left of the front door....pictured below

post-97-0-51076100-1362890329_thumb.jpg

I will be putting a decent sized silver Bizmarkia to the right of the front door......pictured here......post-97-0-11354700-1362890442_thumb.jpg

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Alicehunter2000

Keith, your C. alba will be waiting for you here. Bring your oyster knife and some French bread, boudin, crawfish or anything else you might think we will like.

Paul, hope you can make it over....Ken will be heading over to help you move your palms after my job....take plenty of pics....also, I'm still interested in any palms you might want to part with. That cobia Rocks!.....them some good eatin'.

Mark and Ken....will be seeing you April 6th. Mark, bring your lounge chair and crash on the beach if you are tired from the drive. Ken will be rested as he is coming up the day before. Bring your oyster knives as well....I'm getting a 60 lb bag and putting it on ice in the back of my truck.

Here are some more pics of the front of the house and staging areas for unloading and handling the palms before install. .....across the street and the wooded lot street front next door.

post-97-0-63712500-1362891667_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-46732000-1362891712_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-44692800-1362891761_thumb.jpg

We might have to move the porta-potty to access that side of the house better.

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Pez

Drum?? It gets better than that. It almost that time of year again. I caught this 104lb cobia in your back yard David a couple years back. We do it every year launch in Pensacola a start heading East.

attachicon.gifcobia 107.jpg

Thats one to claim for ever. Nice fish.

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