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Alicehunter2000's Beach Party by Ken Johnson

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Cedric

A pool should be long and narrow so that you can do laps.

A pool should be filled in at the earliest opportunity creating instant habitate for the magnificent king of palms Raphia australis, hardier than most people think. Just remember not to plant at water level or lower but higher.

Seriously pools are the biggest pain in the butt. I have a huge six lane highway one that is now an international water-lily collection and rather fancy goldfish pond (see pic). When the rains come I was dumping chemicals by the tonnage just keeping the thing from turning green, then every typhoon (or light breeze) it was jam packed with upside down trees and leaves. It looked best in the cool season when no one was swimming but I soon got tired of playing doctor to water quality.

Very important (unless you love Koi) "shallow is more", you will want to place many easy to reach planters on the bottom for that water garden when the only one swimming is the odd frog.

Thanks for that kind offer AliceHunter, I don't go to the US nearly as often as I would like anymore since Im based in Asia but you are so right about Florida.

post-6384-0-80494600-1354699586_thumb.jp

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Alicehunter2000

Jason- maybe your right, but for some reason it didn't have a reclinata look to it other than the multiple trunks. I think the crowns look more like canary.....so we will just call it a CxR cross, beautiful palm nonetheless.....it is across the street from the Bass Pro Shops in Destin.

Keith, makes me wonder who is producing the cross, it is very nice in person....with enough roebelini to give it a nice petite feathery look. These are taking the full sun and cold out near the highway.

Darkman, I have been PM ing you and would like to keep you updated. You are welcome anytime to come over and check out the progress. Interested in your input especially the water feature you mentioned that you are working on. I have a bunch of C. humilis I can give you a couple if you want. I got one that is a "cerifera" that will be planted in a good spot in the yard.

Cedric, I actually enjoy being able to jump in a pool to cool off after working in the yard on the palms. Also, I got yungins'... 6 and 8 years old that are like fish in the summer. The pool will be tiny and will help rinse the salt water off after a beach day. Been talking to the pool guy and he says everyone is actually going to UV light for pool sterilization, supplemented with a small amount of chlorine, especially on a small pool. Evidently, "Salt" pools have to have their chlorine generating equipment replaced every few years and the cost is large, which offsets any saving on buying chlorine for the same sized pool. UV lights are cheap in comparison....but you are right in that 90% of the time the pool will be for looks.

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Alicehunter2000

Here is the final (hopefully) decision regarding pool design. Price is now where we need it and I am pretty happy with the more organic feel. Ken is working on getting me a curved Dypsis cabadae and a Chambeyronia macrocarpa that will lean directly over the heated pool. Between proximity to the water, house protection, screened above and my marginal climate and Ken's pricing, I believe that it is worth the chance to try these palms.

The planting beds will also house 4 ft. tall Tiki's that will be drilled to allow water to shoot out of their mouths. This will be my water feature. I can also put bowls with gel on their heads and light it on fire for added effect...lol. I hope by designing the pool to not have a planting bed when looking down through the middle to the back yard, it will allow for the viewer to look through the screen to the plants and features beyond the pool area.

Should hear from bank today on appraisal, hopefully close on loan this week.

post-97-0-74041700-1355234665_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-60297500-1355234742_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-35869900-1355234769_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-37490400-1355234787_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-59909000-1355234802_thumb.jpg

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Trópico

Looking good David! Much better than the former design. But I am a little concerned about your choice palms for the pool, if you're going to have an enclosure. I made that mistake myself with two Caryota mitis clumps. They grew FAST and started to pierce the screen above. Removing them was fun with a hammer and a chisel. So you need to have a plan for that moment, how to transplant the palms when they get too large to fit. Remember that the spear will get there long before the rest of the palm.

Now, for inside the enclosure, I either choose trunkless species or dwarfs that may take forever to grow tall if they ever do.

Also, more importantly, you need to plan on how to protect those more tender palms. I have a Dypsis cabadae clump near my pool screen that gets defoliated with any trace of frost or freezing temps. I protect the stems with christmas lights and a comforter and they grow out of any damage without problems. I also have a Chamaedorea cataractum inside my screened area in a planter, and I still need to protect it because it can get below freezing and with frost inside the pool enclosure. I used to have two clumps and lost one to cold before I started protecting the other one with lights and blankets.

Not to discourage you from having some really awesome species for the pool area but keep those things in mind. My pool area is on the north side of my property but on the south side of my neighbor's. You have a much better location for your pool, and possibly an awesome microclimate. Good luck!

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WestCoastGal

David, loving the new pool design refinements. The Tiki fountain and fire head sound like a great idea. Is there someplace you can purchase this from or will it be custom built?

The curved palms would be a gorgeous addition if they end up working for you. In the event they don't, make sure the design of the screening structure will allow for the easiest removal points you can get of screening panels....ultimately saving you money down the road should the palms outgrow the space or need to be pulled out.

Good luck on the appraisal and moving forward on your dream. It's fun watching this come to fruition.

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Mark Heath

Looking good!! I can't wait to see this place!!

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krishnaraoji88

I have 3 Chambeyronia in Ocala and they are hardier than you'd think. I protect them if its supposed to be really cold but its worth it for the 1-2 nights each winter to have those beautiful red leaves! Another palm that is smaller but would look fantastic around the pool as an underplanting is Kerriodoxa. The house structure should help prevent the winds from tearing up the leaves and these look fantastic!

-Krishna

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Alicehunter2000

Thanks everyone for the continued interest. Frank, yes size is a concern for me and I have discussed it with Ken. Ken claims to have a way to effectively "bonzai" a palm to a certain extent. I'm not sure exactly how yet but hopefully he will chime in an provide more detail. The Dypsis cabadae is the one I'm more concerned with, but he assures me that it will be many years before I would have to contend with it approaching the top of the screen. The palm is almost horizontal and has just started to turn upward. Here are a couple of pics of the palm.

post-97-0-16013600-1355374243_thumb.jpg

post-97-0-33142700-1355374455_thumb.jpg

The Chambeyronia I think is supposed to be very slow growing, so I think it will be ok for a long time, especially if I don't get a very large one.

I am really supprised that you get frost (inside) your screened porch area. I was not expecting this. Yes on those very cold nights I may use some supplement heat from either lights or from propane heaters on standby. I would hope this did not occur too often and that the pool water heat alone will keep things above the freezing point. It will definately be a trial and error project.

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Alicehunter2000

West Coast Gal, yes I have found a few websites that I think are based in California that ship Hawaiian Tiki's in and resell. Something like this totem is what I have in mind.

Here is a hand carved Tiki totem depicting Kane, Tiki of love and Lono, Tiki of prosperity.

These Tiki pole's measure:

  • 40" (100cm) tall and 9" thick
  • 48" (120cm) tall and 9" thick
  • 60" (150cm) tall and 10" thick

Made of premium Acacia wood

INDOOR/OUTDOOR USE!

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Ken says to use a chainsaw when the palms get too big :crying: Not sure I would have the heart. I will have to screen doors on both sides of the pool, I would hope that I could tie the fronds together and pull it out, root ball first with enough people...but then again, maybe not....can always remove a panel of screen when the time comes. Good to think ahead about these things.

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Alicehunter2000

Krishna that is good new about the hardiness of your Chambyronia's. I was wanting something crownshafted and could handle the shade and will not grow too fast and Chams are starting to look like the way to go.

Ooohhh.....really like the look of those Kerriodoxa, that is a fresh idea. I would be worried that maybe the leaves would be too large for the area. Will study on it some more. And of course, it is what is available at a good price as well.

I was thinking about putting a limestone water feature outside of the screen ( in the main jungle area) that could be seen from the pool area (through the screen), especially at night with lighting. Here are some smaller but very nice pieces that I am going to try and aquire tommorow from a hotel about 40 miles north of me. I go up there every week and have always noticed this pile of limestone just laying there. Hope they will sell for a good price.

For some reason I can't post the picture.....I have reduced the file size down to almost nothing and it still say file it too big....hmm

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Alicehunter2000

post-97-0-94924300-1355377063_thumb.jpg

Ok...its working now....sorry for the tiny pic....

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Alicehunter2000

post-97-0-29074800-1355453816_thumb.jpg

On the Farm Today

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Alicehunter2000

post-97-0-45225200-1355454180_thumb.jpg

Ken wanted to see the tractor

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doranakandawatta

If you like the tropical look for gardens, see Geoffrey Bawa's work ( I am glad I met him since 1995) or Made Vijaya's.

These days, Channa Daswatte is a wonderful architect; Enjoy google!

The shape of your pool doesn't have to look natural since a very simple shape (square or rectangle,, or two intricated rectangles... ) will contrast with the lush planting, but your drawing look very californian (the idea of California we have in Europe!).

Regards

Philippe

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BS Man about Palms

Sorry, for not checking out this thread till now... But I think I (and many) thought it was for a party that came and went.. but as the pages grew.. decided to look.

The only things I would add or echo is Like Harry said, a lap pool.. or as SMALL as possible to maintain. I work in different houses everyday, and without exception, the homes that had pools installed had heavy use for 3-5 years then drops to almost nada... just a pain to maintain.. Isn't there say... a "GULF" nearby if you need lots of people in the water? :P

And I think I saw one mention of it, but I can't help but think a Howea would take what you have there and look great around the pool.. have you looked at those?

And Kudos for a fun project... I suspect it will be done LONG before mine! :lol:

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Alicehunter2000

Thanks Phillipe, I checked out some of their work...but I have to say that I like your garden better. No joke...you may have to start getting into the design business.

Bill, the pool is going to be very small, much smaller than my previous houses pool. Howea's would probably get too big for the screened area but i am going to try them in the yard.

Ken and I are debating which of these two P. sylvestris hybrids look better....what do others think?post-97-0-10736300-1356225735_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-79938100-1356225760_thumb.jpg

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WestCoastGal

Both beautiful specimens and really hard to pick a favorite. I like the 2nd one for additional clear trunk, but think if I had to pick, I like the 1st better. I think because the length of the fronds is more uniform and I guess I find the canopy more attractive as a result. Really just based on a snapshot in time though. I know you mentioned transplanting some large palms, are you deciding between these two? Really can't go wrong either way.

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Mark Heath

I like the 1st one better (upper right). It has a thicker crown but i do like the second one also. My pic is the 1st one.

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DoomsDave

Hmm.

U want tropical? Take No. 2. It's droopier, more tropical, though the other's wonderful, too, why don't you just compromise and take both?

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DoomsDave

Compromise can be a good thing.

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sonoranfans

both are very nice palms. As noted the first has a more dense crown the second more clear trunk. In three years, the trunk of the first one will have gone by the current height of the second one, and the transplant will thin the crowns of both, temporarily. These are fast growing palms in florida. I might look at what you plan to plant next to it to see which has a more compatible height if you plan to plant near to a shorter/taller palm. My inclination is to take the 1st one as it has a better developed crown, and it is likely younger so presumably could have a better response to transplant. From what I have read, growth hormone in palms declines with age, though it is not clear whether there would be any difference in these two.

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Don

Hey David hope all's well moving this thread up were it belongs. I'm going to pm you give me a ring back. glad to see everything is moving forward.

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Alicehunter2000

Thanks Don, I haven't been updating the thread because I am still waiting on the building permit. Should have it next week. I responded to your PM....thanks.....

After listening to everyones response (including my wife) and to Ken...I have decided to go with sylvestris x canary hybrid #1. It will be a focal point behind the pool screened area. Hopefully the silver coloration will really stand out.

Mark Heath has started his root pruning for the 3 mules (including the biggun for the front door). Can't wait to see it in person.

Ken has located what we think is a S. causarium. It is a bit over my budget, but I have cut back on some other items to make it work. Here is a picture of the bad boy............now my question is......which of these do you like better?

post-97-0-50185200-1358570686_thumb.jpg

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Stevetoad

What a great way to start a new garden! I can't wait to see how this looks done. From the plans and plant list it looks to be nothing short of amazing.

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sonoranfans
Thanks Don, I haven't been updating the thread because I am still waiting on the building permit. Should have it next week. I responded to your PM....thanks.....

After listening to everyones response (including my wife) and to Ken...I have decided to go with sylvestris x canary hybrid #1. It will be a focal point behind the pool screened area. Hopefully the silver coloration will really stand out.

Mark Heath has started his root pruning for the 3 mules (including the biggun for the front door). Can't wait to see it in person.

Ken has located what we think is a S. causarium. It is a bit over my budget, but I have cut back on some other items to make it work. Here is a picture of the bad boy............now my question is......which of these do you like better?

attachicon.gifPuerto Rican Hat Palm.jpg

Wow, those are both very impressive sabals, I'd take either one!!! Did I say WOW!? Some of the most awesome palms Ive seen!

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Mark Heath

Either one would do for me!! I like them both!

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Alicehunter2000

As far as the S. causiarum, I am leaning more to the one on the right. The leaf form looks better to me.

Here is the L. nitida and L. saribus that I will be getting.

post-97-0-04364000-1358645771_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-81853200-1358645838_thumb.jpg

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sonoranfans
As far as the S. causiarum, I am leaning more to the one on the right. The leaf form looks better to me.

Here is the L. nitida and L. saribus that I will be getting.

attachicon.gifNitida.jpgattachicon.gifSaribus.jpg

Looks like you've done your homework on cold hardy canopy palms David. And these look like instant canopy along with the mules. You should be able to go under these with some smaller 9b or 10 a palms... Looks like a great plan!

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Alicehunter2000

You got it exactly right Tom. The plan is to put in the big cold hardy canopy and plant more marginal stuff underneath. I am working with a really small yard and the entire thing will just about be canopied by palms. Should make a nice shady yard for those hot summer days.

I am also getting 3 of these L. decora (ribbon palms).

post-97-0-92247000-1358718005_thumb.jpg

I love these because it almost gives a pinnate look....seeing as how I am limited on cold hardy pinnate choices.

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sonoranfans
You got it exactly right Tom. The plan is to put in the big cold hardy canopy and plant more marginal stuff underneath. I am working with a really small yard and the entire thing will just about be canopied by palms. Should make a nice shady yard for those hot summer days.

I am also getting 3 of these L. decora (ribbon palms).

attachicon.gifRibbon Field Ad Nov 2012 015.jpg

I love these because it almost gives a pinnate look....seeing as how I am limited on cold hardy pinnate choices.

Yes David the decora have a yin ( receiving gravity) delicacy to them which will complement the bold yang of the big erect fans like sabal causiarum. Your place will be a marvel palm landscaping design for your zone. And thanks to palmtalk you have all the right kind of advice and help to ensure a knockout garden. I have done similar things with my yard/zone, though perhaps not as many large specimens. I would encourage you to slightly over space them so they wont abrade each other, and so they are each viewable. Even these large specimen palms can get a little bigger in the crown. I look forward to the completion of your project, it should be a great example of what is possible in your zone...

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Alicehunter2000

Cool........Feng Shui without meaning to be Feng Shui. PalmTalk has definately been a great help over the years as well as now in choosing the right plants for this zone. I guess only time will tell if they are the right choices. I am going to try and space them as much as possible.

One limiting factor is the utility lines just 3 ft. to the outside of the back property line. If working within a 20' by 112' planting area was not shallow enough, will have to contend with this as well. The plan is to plant citrus and medium growing fruit trees along the back. If need be, these can be trimmed accordingly without sacrificing the entire tree. The really big diameter palms, such as the Sabal and Phoenix, will have to be placed in the center. Smaller growing species, and smaller crowned species.....such as P. roeb. hybrid and Washingtonia (smaller crown) can be planted a little closer to the back wall. I may plant some of the larger palms with a slight overhang to the backside of the home, so several items will be able to be placed towards the house frome the center line. I will not have aluminum gutter and the roof will be concrete barrel tile.

Here are some pictures of Mark Heath's root prune. The first 3 are the big Mule and the last 2 are of the 3 & 4 ft. relaxed leaf mules.

post-97-0-54555800-1358775072_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-70324100-1358775127_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-18775400-1358775159_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-62370200-1358775210_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-58242100-1358775235_thumb.jpg

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Mark Heath

Nice to see that you posted the pics! Just to let you know David,,, my worker is 20lbs shy of 300! That will give you a scale to see just how huge the big boy is!!

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sonoranfans
Cool........Feng Shui without meaning to be Feng Shui. PalmTalk has definately been a great help over the years as well as now in choosing the right plants for this zone. I guess only time will tell if they are the right choices. I am going to try and space them as much as possible.

One limiting factor is the utility lines just 3 ft. to the outside of the back property line. If working within a 20' by 112' planting area was not shallow enough, will have to contend with this as well. The plan is to plant citrus and medium growing fruit trees along the back. If need be, these can be trimmed accordingly without sacrificing the entire tree. The really big diameter palms, such as the Sabal and Phoenix, will have to be placed in the center. Smaller growing species, and smaller crowned species.....such as P. roeb. hybrid and Washingtonia (smaller crown) can be planted a little closer to the back wall. I may plant some of the larger palms with a slight overhang to the backside of the home, so several items will be able to be placed towards the house frome the center line. I will not have aluminum gutter and the roof will be concrete barrel tile.

Here are some pictures of Mark Heath's root prune. The first 3 are the big Mule and the last 2 are of the 3 & 4 ft. relaxed leaf mules.

attachicon.gifMule1.JPGattachicon.gifMule2.JPGattachicon.gifMule3.JPGattachicon.gifMule4.JPGattachicon.gifMule5.JPG

they are the right choices, david. The livistonas, sylvestris, sabal causiarum are great choices, and those mules look great! Mules are the best looking feathers for zone 8a-9a, IMHO. I have found them to be just about bullet proof...

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_Keith

I am sure going to try to make this party.

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Collectorpalms

Just a word of caution from a meteorologist. Ft Walton Beach had lows of 9 and 11F, with one day of a high of only 23 in the 1980s. That will pretty much ruin your collection. I looked up your subdivision and do think that even though your right at the beach that it is a low end zone 9a. You have no water and no urban area directly to your north, just rural land between you and the arctic. I think common palms like queens and pygmy dates will probably get burnt or killed every 5 to 10 years there. Most of the central Texas Coast is a zone 9b, and the more unusual palms collector had their palms killed in 2010 and 2011.

The other thing I would be worried about is winds from Hurricanes. Big crown shafts like Canaries get their heads blown off, even seen it on Mexicans. I can imagine that a bismarckia would be at risk. The Ribbon palm doesn't look good in high winds, looks wind tattered even in Houston.

Of the palms you have in your list, I would keep Mules, sylvestris, and the sabals,

Edited by Collectorpalms

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Alicehunter2000

I appreciate your advice, but I have a different way of thinking about it...

That data is so highly unusual for this area....that it is suspect.. not wrong just off the charts unusual...may never see that again in my lifetime...hey I guess it snowed in Miami before too. Gotta take some chances in life to make it worth living.

Based on 49 years of living in the area....queens are marginal.... Bizmarkia marginal....L. nitida and saribus untested. Spending pennies on the queens and getting small relatively inexpensive Bizzy.

Hurricanes are a fact of life here...can't plan my yard based on that either.

Got loads of small stuff that might only make it for while..grown from seed...at no cost. What will grow here long term is only half of the equation.....the other half is how much it costs. Some people buy cut roses for enjoyment....they last maybe a couple of weeks...others buy seasonal flowers for the yard......We are palmy people :greenthumb:

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Alicehunter2000

Now those guys in California trying to grow coconuts......THATS CRAZY!! :bemused:

Collector Palms......On a serious note....hurricanes........how effective is giving a "hurricane cut" to palms just before a storm....I would think that it would be very effective in reducing wind drag....but how much would you cut for a category 1,2, 3, etc...

Sounds like a good question for a meteorologist

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krishnaraoji88
The other thing I would be worried about is winds from Hurricanes. Big crown shafts like Canaries get their heads blown off, even seen it on Mexicans. I can imagine that a bismarckia would be at risk. The Ribbon palm doesn't look good in high winds, looks wind tattered even in Houston.

Of the palms you have in your list, I would keep Mules, sylvestris, and the sabals,

Canaries can handle quite strong winds, there are some old ones in downtown Miami that made it through quite a few hurricanes in their time.

-Krishna

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Xerarch
I appreciate your advice, but I have a different way of thinking about it... That data is so highly unusual for this area....that it is suspect.. not wrong just off the charts unusual...may never see that again in my lifetime...hey I guess it snowed in Miami before too. Gotta take some chances in life to make it worth living. Based on 49 years of living in the area....queens are marginal.... Bizmarkia marginal....L. nitida and saribus untested. Spending pennies on the queens and getting small relatively inexpensive Bizzy. Hurricanes are a fact of life here...can't plan my yard based on that either. Got loads of small stuff that might only make it for while..grown from seed...at no cost. What will grow here long term is only half of the equation.....the other half is how much it costs. Some people buy cut roses for enjoyment....they last maybe a couple of weeks...others buy seasonal flowers for the yard......We are palmy people :greenthumb:
I tend to agree, even though it has been down to 9 and 11 degrees in the 80's you may never see temps like that again in your lifetime. Even if you do, you may enjoy a lot of those palms for many years before they fry. The important thing is that you understand the risks, which many people have already helped you with. I say live palm life on the edge, and enjoy it while it lasts!

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sonoranfans
I appreciate your advice, but I have a different way of thinking about it...

That data is so highly unusual for this area....that it is suspect.. not wrong just off the charts unusual...may never see that again in my lifetime...hey I guess it snowed in Miami before too. Gotta take some chances in life to make it worth living.

Based on 49 years of living in the area....queens are marginal.... Bizmarkia marginal....L. nitida and saribus untested. Spending pennies on the queens and getting small relatively inexpensive Bizzy.

Hurricanes are a fact of life here...can't plan my yard based on that either.

Got loads of small stuff that might only make it for while..grown from seed...at no cost. What will grow here long term is only half of the equation.....the other half is how much it costs. Some people buy cut roses for enjoyment....they last maybe a couple of weeks...others buy seasonal flowers for the yard......We are palmy people :greenthumb:

I understand the texas folks have just recently been through their worst couple of winters in decades so the worst case scenario has been real there. Record lows might not happen again for a long time, especially if temps are warming. In some sense you can expand your zone against these things using firepits and heaters for short durations as long as you have good overhead canopy. No overhead canopy, forget it. When I was in arizona I saw a 15ft+ royal survive and come back from a nearby indicated 18F, but Im sure that all the surrounding plantings prevented it from being 18F at that palm, and nearby heated water helped. If you have a source of heat, its important to be able to trap it down with canopy and to block heat sweeping wind with lower level windblock. And then keep the cold hardiest species to the windward outside edge of the garden. For short durations, a few days, you can make your own heat and trap it...

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      However this can be misleading as I have found out the hard way. We have months and months of Mediterranean summer reaching 46oC this year (blame global warming). This means that the USDA zone alone is an insufficient guideline for us with more extreme weather as it does not take into account the max summer temperatures, the length of summer and winter conditions, rainfall etc.
      Nowadays, I often look at what other people are growing with similar climates nearest being  Southern California and even Sydney  (not in Cyprus as there are few of us pushing boundaries I think). Having recently joined this site, I look forward to following closely what people are growing in these areas. I currently grow Bungalow palms, livistona chinensis, bismarkia, robellina, trachycarpus fortunii and waggies, chaemadorea, and many cycas, dioone and encepalartus. Here is a picture of part of my garden.
      I would be interested in hearing how other people decide on what to try apart from the obvious desperate "must have this plant" garden urge.
    • GregVirginia7
      By GregVirginia7
      Any lessons on Sabal fronds collapsing? This one is growing in Bethany Beach, DE and has been in ground for about 4-years...seems very healthy...new growth fronds are huge...any advise appreciated...just want to rule in or out any nutritional deficiencies...they collapse at the petiole...most other fronds seem strong.
    • GregVirginia7
      By GregVirginia7
      Good morning folks...these updates will seem a bit boring but...
       
      That Sabal Minor seed I sprouted (first palm seed I’ve ever sproutEd) is getting a second strap leaf!

      and...my Brazoria is getting a trunk!...I think...
       

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