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Alicehunter2000's Beach Party by Ken Johnson

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Jerry@TreeZoo

I have a question about bracing palms, how do you brace tall newly planted palms if on one side their is no place for the brace? (such as a fence or other obstruction). Would you use tie downs and tension wire on the side that is accessible? Is this done very often?

You can use braces such as 2x4's on the same side that you use cables or wires to tie the palm down. Pushing and pulling at the same time.

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tank

Dave,

Trachycarpus wagnerianus may be worth a try as well. Smallish palm, doesn't take up a bunch of space and should be bullet proof temp wise.

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Halekuma

Hi, I dont know if you are mind closed to new adquisitions but would you try dypsis saint lucei? or things like ravenea glauca, xerophilla or syagrus glaucescens? (they are slow but I think they would be bullet proof in your area...

I have a small project in mind about building a small palmetum of 2500-3000m2 next to my parents home (which is already on its way to become a small palmetum of 1000m2 ) in the future so I am keeping a close eye on your fabulous work!! My parents live in a coastal area 1,5km away from sea where some years they reach -2/-3C so your work is going to help me a great time...

Edited by Halekuma

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Alicehunter2000

Redbeard, yes I will be adding citrus and other fruit trees. Probably will put them on the fence line in the back to help as a windbreak. Letting the wife pick these out as she doesn't want to feel left out of the project. She will also help with a lot of the smaller tropical looking dicots, once the big stuff gets put in.

Jerry, thanks once again....I was thinking this would be the way to do it, but never have seen it done. I would think you would have to use a pretty heavy duty tie down like those used for mobile homes.

Tank, yes several different Trachy's would probably work. No probs with temps but humidity might possibly be an issue with some species. Just to note, I enjoy reading everyones ideas and thank you all for helping me design this project. I like reading about others experience, especially those who live in similar climate such as you, Keith, Paul etc.. Seems to be quite a few of us up here in the North Gulf coastal region.

Halekuma, thanks for the list, I will check those species out for sure. As I was just telling Tank, similar climates anywhere in the world are good posts to follow. Be sure to check out Alberto's posts and Gileno? (can't remember how to spell his name) in South America. They always have relevant information for our "zones" that may be very different than what others in North America have. Subtropical Australia and New Zealand and the occational South African posts can also be of help. Also, don't forget Northern California and Texas posts.

Good luck with your project....take lots of pictures.

Dypsis saint lucei :mrlooney: never even considered it until now .....may have to try it!

Ravenea xerophilla also sounds promising....may have to make an order from Floridbunda next year.

Syagrus glaucescens......another that I didn't know about....seems there are some hybridizers out there doing some interesting crosses with this one.....excellent

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Alicehunter2000

Here are 2 of the 3 Mules that Mark Heath is supplying. Note the special limp characteristic of these particular plantspost-97-0-63774500-1351989645_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-76162700-1351989030_thumb.jpg.

Mark I can't seem to find the 3 Mule....can you post a picture of it?

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Halekuma

Some palms you could be interested in:

Geonoma Schottiana

Lytocaryum Hoehnei

Lytocaryum Weddellianum

Trachycarpus Ukhrulensis/Manipur

Wallichia Densiflora

Dypsis Saint Lucei

Cyphophoenix Elegans

Licuala Spinosa

Plectocomia Himalayana

Pinanga Gracilis/Himalayana

Acronomia Intumescens

Attalea Rostrata, Phalerata or Dubia

Syagrus Glaucescens

Pritchardia Minor

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Mark Heath

Here are 2 of the 3 Mules that Mark Heath is supplying. Note the special limp characteristic of these particular plantspost-97-0-63774500-1351989645_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-76162700-1351989030_thumb.jpg.

Mark I can't seem to find the 3 Mule....can you post a picture of it?

Here you go!

post-518-0-17449800-1352112343_thumb.jpg

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Mark Heath

Oops, my bad,,,, let's replace that last one w/ a MONSTER!! Check this out! Frond to frond 23 feet across!

Talk about making a statement by your front door!

post-518-0-64972000-1352158954_thumb.jpg

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Alicehunter2000

It was great speaking with Mark today about the project, he sent me a pic of the mule above and it was love at first sight. We are scratching the third palm in favor of the big boy. Now the decision is.....will it go to the left or right side of the front door. Ken's Bizmarkia will go on the other side :D A beautiful green pinnate on one side and a beautiful silver palmate on the other....best of both worlds.

Halekuma, thanks for posting those species....gives me some research.

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oviedotreefarm

Bismarks and Chinese fans can take an incredible amount of salt, even if they small. I dont know about the other Livistonias.

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Ken Johnson

Some pictures of my Brahea!

post-50-0-92538100-1352297708_thumb.jpg

post-50-0-25771600-1352297943_thumb.jpg

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Alicehunter2000

I have a request/question for everyone....please list any crownshafted palms that will stay under 15 ft. or 4.572 meters tall in overall height and can take temperatures down to 25 degrees F. or -3.889 degrees C.

The area will be in ground planters, and/or pots inside the screened pool area and will be shaded to semi- shaded, hi-humidity, low wind, frost-free environment.

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John Case

I have a request/question for everyone....please list any crownshafted palms that will stay under 15 ft. or 4.572 meters tall in overall height and can take temperatures down to 25 degrees F. or -3.889 degrees C.

The area will be in ground planters, and/or pots inside the screened pool area and will be shaded to semi- shaded, hi-humidity, low wind, frost-free environment.

Chambeyronias seem to meet the bulk of your request; perhaps Burretiokentias or even a Howea belmoreana (no crownshaft, though)....15 feet is the problem, of course...eventually you'll have to call Ken for removal...

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Halekuma

I have a request/question for everyone....please list any crownshafted palms that will stay under 15 ft. or 4.572 meters tall in overall height and can take temperatures down to 25 degrees F. or -3.889 degrees C.

The area will be in ground planters, and/or pots inside the screened pool area and will be shaded to semi- shaded, hi-humidity, low wind, frost-free environment.

In theory, some basselinia and actinokentia divaricata should fit well there...

Ravenea moorei and hildebrandtii could like you too although they have no crownshaft...

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Alicehunter2000

Latest update on list....still evolving

5- S. palmetto 25-35' ct.

1- S. uresana (trunking)

1- S. causarium (height?)

3- W. robusta 25' oa

3- S. romanzoffiana 20'oa

1- C. alba 20' ct

3- L. decora 14' oa

2- L. nitida 14' oa

2- L. saribus 10' oa

1- P. sylvestris (10' ct ??)

1- x Butyagrus 3' ct

1- x Butyagrus 4' ct

1- x Butyagrus 8' ct

1- B. nobilis 19' oa

1- A. wrightii (height?)

1- C. radicalis 6' oa

1- B. recurvata 12' oa

29 plants total

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John Case

Latest update on list....still evolving

5- S. palmetto 25-35' ct.

1- S. uresana (trunking)

1- S. causarium (height?)

3- W. robusta 25' oa

3- S. romanzoffiana 20'oa

1- C. alba 20' ct

3- L. decora 14' oa

2- L. nitida 14' oa

2- L. saribus 10' oa

1- P. sylvestris (10' ct ??)

1- x Butyagrus 3' ct

1- x Butyagrus 4' ct

1- x Butyagrus 8' ct

1- B. nobilis 19' oa

1- A. wrightii (height?)

1- C. radicalis 6' oa

1- B. recurvata 12' oa

29 plants total

I am hoping you are installing the Queens for immediate canopy and nothing else.....everything else are collectors items....well done!

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Palmə häl′ik

I would be looking into the upper elevation NewCal palms such as those up on Mt.MeOri that can be found around 1000m or so. Basselinia gracilis, B. Pancheri, and B. Vestita. These NewCal palms are effin hot bro. I read somewhere these palms are also naturally hybridizing up there, and the offspring should be even tougher... ?

Basselinia sordida is another that can be found up high at around 1500m on Mt.Me'Maoya. As mentioned in previous posts, the Burretiokentias, and Chambeys are also worth lookin into.... Im sure Ken can help ya out w them there species....

- Ray.

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Ken Johnson

David wants this palm. Think I should let him have it?

Just joking it's on the deliver ticket.

post-50-0-86276000-1352992836_thumb.jpg

post-50-0-20143100-1352992938_thumb.jpg

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Tulio

Ken,

Is that a C. radicalis trunk form?

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Cedric

Wow so many nice ideas for palms and a growing list of those cold hardy enough to choose from.

This is the dilemma, is it a garden or a collection?

Purists opinion, personally if I was starting from scratch and its a garden I would keep the number of species in this case to an absolute maximum of three, only one if I could help it but depending on the size of the garden three will give you plenty of opportunity for endless gardening. You will also need trees too some sort of stunning conifer. The reason I say this is that its a Mediterranean style house and that more or less dictates the garden.

For a deep evocative sense of place, of style, to set the scene use the few either wild or domestic Mediterranean palm species which are mostly pretty damn hardy to exposure and extraordinarily beautiful in a natural planting. Companion planting and Im putting the palms central here use all the stunning Mediterranean shrubs and flowers to blend them in.

A cool oasis effect for one area protected by and protecting the house, plus a wild scrub zone of delightful flowers grasses and shrubs and trees for the other.

Mediterranean gardens are extremely nice and satisfying but require restraint and discipline in planting, this is how nature does it out there. For exuberance/fecundity flowering annuals, shrubs, bulbs and isolated wet zones do the job.

:mrlooney: my 2 pennies worth

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Ken Johnson

Ken,

Is that a C. radicalis trunk form?

It is radicalis with a lot of trunk as you can see. Female too.

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Lowey

Bump, any progress on the site David ??

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Alicehunter2000

John, believe it or not queens are still not overly used here. We are on the edge of survivability and I am severly restricted as to what pinnate palms I can grow. Sabal palmetto and Butia capita are everywhere and are way overused.

I am in discussion with Ken concerning many of the species listed. At the moment we are trying to find a crownshafted curved under 20 ft. palm to go from a planting bed near the screened pool area over the pool and sharply curved up. We are getting close to finding something that will fit those requirements. Burretiokentia hapala is one we are thinking about. Thanks for all the suggestions.

Cedric, yes the Mediteranian vs. Tropical plants planting discussion has come up between me and my wife many times. This is especially true because as you noted the house we are building is a Mediteranian style house. I live in a sea of conifers (i.e pine trees) and while I know there are many conifers that are uncommon here, we have decided to go with the tropical look. The yard is very small 7meters wide by 40 meters long and there is just not room for large coniferous trees. That being said I will consider smaller species that you mentioned as long as it can handle the shade and fits with the overall look.

It is more of a garden...with collectibles :winkie:

Bruce, thanks.....I have not been responding to the thread because things are at a standstill until the engineer signs of on the plans. Once that happens I can get the loan....then wait for permits...then finally start building. I expect to start building by the end of this year. Nonetheless, I have continued refining the palm project and everything is still being scheduled for beginning of March, which is the start of our spring.

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Alicehunter2000

post-97-0-90946200-1353452855_thumb.jpgpost-97-0-63248100-1353452868_thumb.jpg

Still working on design....will welcome any comments

I requested to the pool designer that I make the raised planting beds not as deep and to bring the planting area towards each other, then to connect the 2 with a raised wall that will also serve as a jump platform.

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Alicehunter2000

post-97-0-17476000-1353550718_thumb.jpg

I'm thinking something like this...a little less symmetrical on the planting beds.

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Mark Heath

Hey David,

The long part of what you are waiting for is for the engineer to seal the prints. After that, push the loan officer. But getting permits should take just a cpl of days if you have a builder who is a go-getter. I built my home and did all the leg work (permits/hiring subcontractors) but i had to get a loan as well.

I subbed out the electrical, plumbing, and AC and the insulation. The rest i had a big hand in doing myself.

Keep in mind that when you allready have prints that making changes will only slow down the building process and will add extra expenses to the final bill from the builder.

Change orders add up!

Your place is going to be outstanding! What palms do you intend on planting in the raised beds next to the pool? Throw in some Crotons too!!

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Alicehunter2000

post-97-0-74581500-1353596826_thumb.jpg

The engineer has approved and sent changes back to the draftsman. I should have stamped copies next Tues. and will bring to the banker on Wed. with contractor pricing. The banker will have his people give me an appraisal and will issue the loan....hopefully pretty quickly.

Here are the changes that were made since the previous elevations were posted. As you can see we decreased the roof pitch substantially (in keeping with a more Meditteranian design) and we also eliminated the observation deck for cost reasons. This can be added later if we decide. The pool can design can be changed without going through the engineer.

Still waiting for ideas on pool....anybody?.....don't have a whole lot of space to work with and am trying to stay away from symmetry. Ken has a cool curved Dypsis that I hope he will take a picture of and post. The idea is to have a nice curve leaning out over the pool. Also, the area will be screened so height-wise we are only looking at 17 ft. max.

Mark, look forward to getting together for the install....hope you like oysters....we are going to get a bag of them and keep them on ice in the back of my truck...bring your shucking knife.

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Cedric

This shot of yours captured my imagination its wonderful.

I have to say I love palms the absolute most in their natural wild setting, and seeing them as such is to me not only a priveledge but also incredibly inspiring for planting ideas or palm usage. I would be happy with just this as my garden, maybe tweeked here and there with a few bulbs and flowers in scale and keeping to those magnificent little palms. I know they are common but believe it or not when Im in Florida for example its places like this that draw me like an absolute magnet where I can and do spend hours and hours completely absorbed I hardly notice time never mind the man made landscapes :violin: good luck with the jungle the birds will love you :)

post-6384-0-45223700-1353595686.jpg

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Alicehunter2000

post-97-0-61720500-1353599402_thumb.jpg

Thanks Cedric,

Very thoughtful post. You are right, the area is absolutely gorgeous. Most people think of South Florida when thinking of Florida. The North Florida Gulf Coast has some of the best beaches in the country. The natural sand dunes hold a variety of native species that give the area a distinctive feel. Next time you are visiting the states, you might want to consider coming here. We can hang out on the beach and relax. I have always wanted to visit South Africa, with its similar climate, unusual wildlife and plants and great surf.

This is one of Ken's Dypsis cabadae that I found on a previous post in the sales section of Palmtalk. Ken promised me to post a picture of the actual plant curved over his pool so that I could get a feel as to what it would look like.....pressures on Ken to post that picture now.... :lol:

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Ken Johnson

post-97-0-61720500-1353599402_thumb.jpg

Thanks Cedric,

Very thoughtful post. You are right, the area is absolutely gorgeous. Most people think of South Florida when thinking of Florida. The North Florida Gulf Coast has some of the best beaches in the country. The natural sand dunes hold a variety of native species that give the area a distinctive feel. Next time you are visiting the states, you might want to consider coming here. We can hang out on the beach and relax. I have always wanted to visit South Africa, with its similar climate, unusual wildlife and plants and great surf.

This is one of Ken's Dypsis cabadae that I found on a previous post in the sales section of Palmtalk. Ken promised me to post a picture of the actual plant curved over his pool so that I could get a feel as to what it would look like.....pressures on Ken to post that picture now.... :lol:

I did not get the picture (gobble gobble) today and tomorrow is offshore on the 52 so it may be a few more days but I will do it. I also found another heterospathe with an even stronger trunk for the kids to climb on.

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Harry

If I may comment on your pool/ patio plans then my personal opinion

is that the patio feels a bit "crammed".

I think it would be better to "push" the pool out, away from the covered patio. This will give you enough space to set up a table/ chairs and have, for example, an open-air dinner party or a kid’s birthday party.

In general, I believe you need more space in your enclosed patio (for people traffic and general family functions).

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Alicehunter2000

Yes Harry, good observation, it is too small of an area for me as well. The problem is that I cannot push the patio out further because of building setback regulations. I have tried to make the pool as small as possible and still be usable. The covered portion of the patio, which is off the main living room and kitchen is approx. 9 ft. x 32 ft. or 2.75 meters x 9.75 meters which is a fairly substantial area. My problem is that the area in front of the bedrooms on both sides. There is only about 6 ft. or 1.82 meters of walkway from the side of the house to the edge of the pool.

The pool itself is already small...22 ft. wide x 15 ft deep at its widest points....( 6.7 meters x 4.6 meters)......I tried to make the planters in the back large enough to put several species of palms and tropical plants. So Harry, what do you think....should I try to make the pool at bit more narrow? to gain a little more walkway/seating around the edge? Should I tweak the planters in a bit more....how much planting bed would be enough? I appreciate the input....this was what I was hoping would be discussed.

I just dont want the pool to look silly by being too small....what do others have out there for pool size? I will also continue to research online.

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WestCoastGal

Been following your thread since the beginning and congrats on building your new house. Too new to palms to really offer advice in that area but since you asked comments on pool area thought I would voice my opinion relative to the spacing issue. Four foot of walkway around the pool sounds very tight, and easy for someone to fall into the pool or restrict servicing any drains in that area.

I've looked at your plans in the thread and noticed discrepancies in how the doors in the u-shaped area will open. Outwards or inwards or will you be doing sliders or folding door panels or stacking sliders? The 9-foot wide covered space at the kitchen/dining room would be severely impacted depending on the answer, and I can't imagine much other than a bistro table and chairs being used in the courtyard if that's true. Our double French doors In our house open inward and do take away space available to walk around, comfortably pull out a chair and sit at our kitchen table, so be sure you have factored that in regardless of which way they open. Table, chair and walk-around access usually requires more space than you think or want to see taken up.

I guess the most important question is how will your family use the u-shaped courtyard and yard behind it and what kind of view do you want to have from inside as well. Will you be eating inside the house most of the time and not need table space outside (just drinks and snacks poolside), do you just want to dip in the pool on hot days or will the kids be using it to play games in the water (so maybe water stools would be in the way)? As for the palms do you really need a planting bed/s inside your netted area or can you go with some palms in pots on drippers for more pool real estate (you are planning a gorgeous palm garden on the other side of the area that will be visible). I love the idea of seeing palms from your master bedroom, so IMO worth the effort putting them there and along the pool area but not sure if there's much of a view of the yard from the back bedroom. Looks like a walk-in closet takes up a part of that exterior wall. Maybe that area behind that bedroom could be an outside dining area if you need it to be and palm planting a bit more sparse or have it line the outer perimeter of the yard at that point. I don't want to take up any more palm talk space on non-palm issues. PM me if you want.

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Harry

A pool should be long and narrow so that you can do laps. Minimum

Size I would guess around 7.5x3.5m. One solution would be to make all the double doors which open in the patio sliding instead of opening so that they would not "bang" against the patio furniture or people passing by.if they open up on the inside you would most probably end up tearing up the curtains!

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Alicehunter2000

Wow....ok....point by point. Thanks for taking the time. Yes, 4 ft. is too tight, actually it is a 4 ft. overhang so on the left side (master br side) there will be 6 ft. of walkway to the edge of the pool. I will tweak the right side at the pool steps and that other hump in front of the larger planter to 6 ft. from that wall. I will also tweak the planters a bit more. I have the planters at 18" tall so that people can use them to sit.

Been thinking about the doors also. I talked to my contractor and have already decided that the doors should all open inward. He will check to make sure that code will allow for that. It is more important for us to have the exterior courtyard space for a small table and chairs and maybe a hammock etc. The kitchen island will be our main eating area and we will not have an interior table in the area around the doors.

I read my wife your comments and she said...........ditch the pool stools. She likes the idea of saving money and being a little more safety minded in such a small pool area. So the pool stools are gone.

We will be keeping the planters but will further refine their size and shape. One of the main reasons being is that we might actually be able to grow some crownshafted palms in the area. The area should stay warmer and frost free with the heated pool and heat radiating from the building. We will also, of coarse, have pots on wheels that can be used for even more sensitive plants and can be rolled inside on the coldest of cold nights.

As you know from previous posts, the backyard area will be planted with large landscaped sized palms. We plan to uplight many of the palms so that at night we can have a nice effect. Looking throught the screen from the back porch you should be able to enjoy the landscape located more in the middle. Their will be a view from the master bath tub window as well a smaller views from other bathrooms. One of the issues that we have to contend with is a noise factor coming from the street directly behind the back yard. We chose to not put many windows on that side of the house for that reason.

Hopefully we will be able to put small outside "garden rooms" amidst the foliage. Behind the master bedroom would be a good place for a outdoor eating area due to its proximity to the kitchen and BBQ area.

Harry, 25 ft. x 11 ft.......ok noted......I currently have 22ft. x 15 ft. that will be tweaked in a bit to approx 20 ft. x 15ft. or 6 x 4.5 meters. I will not be swimming laps but will usually just use it for washing the salt water off of us and/or cooling off after working in the yard. The kids will be jumping in off all raised planting areas so I have to keep that in mind also.

Thank you both for your advice....I will make many of the changes you suggested. Stay tuned for pictures as the project takes shape.

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Alicehunter2000

Latest update 11-29-12

3- S. palmetto 15'-20'-30' ct. (staggered heights)

1- S. uresana (trunking)

1- S. causarium (height?)

5- W. robusta 25' oa

3- S. romanzoffiana 20'oa

1- C. alba 20' ct

3- L. decora 14' oa

2- L. nitida 14' oa

2- L. saribus 10' oa

1- P. sylvestris (10' ct ??)

1- x Butyagrus 3' ct

1- x Butyagrus 4' ct

1- x Butyagrus 8' ct

1- B. nobilis 19' oa

1- A. wrightii (height?)

1- C. radicalis 6' oa

1- B. recurvata 12' oa

1- Dypsis cabadae 8'oa curved

30 plants total

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Alicehunter2000

I really like this roebelini hybrid....think I will put some money down to hold it. Been looking at it for a long time. Should be more cold hardy than strait roeb. and hopefully get alot taller.

post-97-0-80841700-1354481242_thumb.jpg

Took this picture in Sandestin. Can't quite figure out what kind of hybrid it is? That's me at the bottom for scale....the thing is huge.

post-97-0-41565400-1354481327_thumb.jpg

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tank

Probably a P. reclinata hybrid with canariensis or sylvestris.

Took this picture in Sandestin. Can't quite figure out what kind of hybrid it is? That's me at the bottom for scale....the thing is huge.

post-97-0-41565400-1354481327_thumb.jpg

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_Keith

I notice this hybrid now showing up regularly in local nurseries.

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Darkman

Wow! What a great plan. I'm fortunate enough to live close enough to actually see it and possibly come down and help. The experience will be invaluable to help me with my planning for my property.

Maybe I missed it but will you have Rhapis humilis. This is a very attractive small palm that is extremely cold hardy here as in it took two winters with 18 degrees and no problems.

Looking forward to seeing this happen!

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      Nowadays, I often look at what other people are growing with similar climates nearest being  Southern California and even Sydney  (not in Cyprus as there are few of us pushing boundaries I think). Having recently joined this site, I look forward to following closely what people are growing in these areas. I currently grow Bungalow palms, livistona chinensis, bismarkia, robellina, trachycarpus fortunii and waggies, chaemadorea, and many cycas, dioone and encepalartus. Here is a picture of part of my garden.
      I would be interested in hearing how other people decide on what to try apart from the obvious desperate "must have this plant" garden urge.
    • GregVirginia7
      By GregVirginia7
      Any lessons on Sabal fronds collapsing? This one is growing in Bethany Beach, DE and has been in ground for about 4-years...seems very healthy...new growth fronds are huge...any advise appreciated...just want to rule in or out any nutritional deficiencies...they collapse at the petiole...most other fronds seem strong.
    • GregVirginia7
      By GregVirginia7
      Good morning folks...these updates will seem a bit boring but...
       
      That Sabal Minor seed I sprouted (first palm seed I’ve ever sproutEd) is getting a second strap leaf!

      and...my Brazoria is getting a trunk!...I think...
       

    • GregVirginia7
      By GregVirginia7
      Anybody have any experience with Brazoria in zone 7? Have been back and forth with mine but the mild winter last year and wet summer this year really gave it a leg up...Looking for any expertise...
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