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Scale


Shon

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I am sure this has been asked many times but I could not find it on an earlier thread. My seven gallon Dypsis mayoette hassome scale at the base.  My questions are how harmful is it and what to do to get rid of it? Thank you in advance to whomever responds.

                                             Shon

San Marcos CA

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Yea Shon,

What Burt said.

Bill

Zone 10a at best after 2007 AND 2013, on SW facing hill, 1 1/2 miles from coast in Oceanside, CA. 30-98 degrees, and 45-80deg. about 95% of the time.

"The great workman of nature is time."   ,  "Genius is nothing but a great aptitude for patience."

-George-Louis Leclerc de Buffon-

I do some experiments and learning in my garden with palms so you don't have to experience the pain! Look at my old threads to find various observations and tips!

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You guys are crazy...scale is not particularly harmful and you can definitely get rid of it without killing every invertebrate in your yard.  Rub them off with you finger, spray with some insecticidal soap and/or neem oil (I usually mix the two) every two weeks or so until they are gone.  And keep the ants off the plant...if the plant is outside, no ants=no scale over time.

Scale do not pose any sort of immediate threat to a palm (or any plant) so there really is no reason to use toxic stuff to get rid of it.

Matt

San Diego

0.6 Acres of a south facing, gently sloped dirt pile, soon to be impenetrable jungle

East of Mount Soledad, in the biggest cold sink in San Diego County.

Zone 10a (I hope), Sunset 24

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I too have found that Volk oil applications to scale eventually makes them slip and fall off....really.  I also spray a tiny bit of diazanon around the circumference of the trunk and the ants don't like it and won't cross it to get up into the tree.

Matt Bradford

"Manambe Lavaka"

Spring Valley, CA (8.5 miles inland from San Diego Bay)

10B on the hill (635 ft. elevation)

9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

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And keep the ants off the plant...if the plant is outside, no ants=no scale over time.

Scale do not pose any sort of immediate threat to a palm (or any plant) so there really is no reason to use toxic stuff to get rid of

Matt,

what do Ants have to do with Scale?... I've had a friggin NIGHTMARE with scale... I lost an orange tree and I just recently had to deal with a small kumquat tree that got infested with them. These things are a NIGHTMARE!!... They can hide really well and they show up out of nowhere. But I don't get the Ant connection

Bobby

Long Island, New York  Zone 7a (where most of the southern Floridians are originally from)

AVERAGE TEMPS

Summer Highs  : 85-90f/day,  68-75f / night

Winter Lows     : 38-45f/day,   25-35f / night

Extreme Low    : 10-20f/day,    0-10f / night   but VERY RARE

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Bobby,

Ants farm and protect scale just like they do with aphids.  Scale (and aphids) are sitting ducks for insect predators and without the ants around to protect them they don't last too long.  This is, of course, if you have any normal, beneficial insect life left in your area.

On my outdoor stuff (including citrus) I've gotten rid of scale by just spraying the plants with a had stream of water every week or so.  The ants get pissed a leave, some of the scale get blown off right away, and the rest just dissapear over time.  

I'm surprised you actually lost a plant to scale.  They usually take a while to get really bad...and you seem like the type that spends a lot of time looking at your plants (palms at least!).

Matt

San Diego

0.6 Acres of a south facing, gently sloped dirt pile, soon to be impenetrable jungle

East of Mount Soledad, in the biggest cold sink in San Diego County.

Zone 10a (I hope), Sunset 24

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I'm surprised you actually lost a plant to scale.  They usually take a while to get really bad...and you seem like the type that spends a lot of time looking at your plants (palms at least!).

I do now... I try to inspect them all every day... but those damn scale can get pretty sneaky and creep up on you..  They seem to really love citrus...  Although, the plant I lost was not outside, but inside a very dry area in my house.   I am constantly monitoring my plants outside now and I will get rid of any scale that I notice immediately. I sprayed my small kumquat tree with Rubbing alcohol and found out that this wasn't the best idea - although it killed the scale, It also made a ton of leaves fall off (but the fruit is still on the tree). I don't wanna use a systemic for citrus or anything that is edible.  Interesting about the ants.... I'll have to keep an eye on them.

Bobby

Long Island, New York  Zone 7a (where most of the southern Floridians are originally from)

AVERAGE TEMPS

Summer Highs  : 85-90f/day,  68-75f / night

Winter Lows     : 38-45f/day,   25-35f / night

Extreme Low    : 10-20f/day,    0-10f / night   but VERY RARE

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I too use neem oil. It's not a fast knock down but it disrupts the hormonal cycle which is necessary in insects to breed etc. So they may not die straight away but they won't breed or eat again. A few applications over a few weeks will kill them but they won't drop off the plant. When they are rubbed off after a neem application they are dead and dry, not moist like a live scale insect.

Scale are bad, and yes ants and scale are connected. Get rid of the ants, then kill the scale. Killing the scale with the ants around will be an ongoing problem that will never end.

regards

Tyrone

Millbrook, "Kinjarling" Noongar word meaning "Place of Rain", Rainbow Coast, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Cool nights all year round.

 

 

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If the palms are outdoors, there's no point in going bug-poopy over scale.  Ladybugs (bug-thugs) eat 'em, enjoy 'em, keep 'em under control.

If you happen to have an ant colony in the pot, or in the ground nearby, give the ants the diazinon treatment, and the scale will moderate.

I've had some palms so full of scale they're like, oh-my-gahd! gross, and they grow so fast they wanna borrow the car, then steal it.

Seriously.

Many worse probs than scale.  (On your palms . .. )

dave

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(Matt in SD @ Nov. 02 2006,13:00)

QUOTE
Scale do not pose any sort of immediate threat to a palm (or any plant) so there really is no reason to use toxic stuff to get rid of it.

Matt

Matt...

While it's true no ants= no scale, I gotta disagree with you on this one...I have seen scale wreak major havoc in a very short period of time (especially on emerging leaves)...and malathion is not as nasty as some other pesticides (like diazanon for instance). When I only had a few plants, all I needed was rubbing alcohol and a few q-tips to take care of scale....when you have many more plants, this is simply no longer an option.

In the beginning, I tried all the environmentally friendly solutions first; insecticidal soaps, volk oil, releasing ladybugs into my yard...nothing worked. I use two applications of malathion at a very weak strength 10-14 days apart and voila!...the scale is gone.

I have a VERY hard time controlling ants around here...spraying them with water doesn't work for me.

Also...if anyone is considering using neem oil, make SURE not to spray it on a hot day in the middle of summer...or your palms will be crispy critters for sure.

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Matt (SD) - That's the most rational advice I've seen on here in a while.

Scale can suck (pun intended), but Ants have unjustifiably been scapegoats for too long. Truth be told, Ants are among the most beneficial critters to have in one's garden. Case closed.

Minneola, Florida

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Just so we are clear, I didn't mean to imply that Shon should spray his entire yard with Malathion....perhaps in hindsight I should have just told Shon to get rid of the scale on his one particular plant using the following method I found successful when I first started my collection:

Put a tiny bit of rubbing alcohol on the tip of a q-tip and dab it on the scale...repeat as neccesary.

Shon...I live near you and would be happy to come look at your plant for you...PM me if that would be helpful to you.

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Seriously.

Many worse probs than scale.  (On your palms . .. )

dave

Dave,

While I might agree with you with Scale on Palms, They completely devoured my kumquat tree... I've had 3 citrus trees that got infected with scale, but managed to save the other 2. Problem with stuff you eat is that you can't use any kind of systemic. You have to pick them off one by one.. or use like an oil based pesticide like neem.. but citrus is very cranky and will drop its leaves - at least in my experience.

Bobby

Long Island, New York  Zone 7a (where most of the southern Floridians are originally from)

AVERAGE TEMPS

Summer Highs  : 85-90f/day,  68-75f / night

Winter Lows     : 38-45f/day,   25-35f / night

Extreme Low    : 10-20f/day,    0-10f / night   but VERY RARE

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Some good discussion here.  Tropicalb is right about spraying neem on a hot day.  I had some pretty bad leaf spotting from it once.  My new method is to spray in the evening and then spray the plants down with water the next morning.  This works great for mites, but I'm not sure about scale...but at least the plants don't get damaged from the oil + heat.

Cryptobionic, can you elaborate on the benefits of ants?  The good things I've noticed are that they pollinate stuff, and they definitely aerate the soil...but I'm still not a big fan.

Speaking of the safety of pesticides, I was recently talking to a toxicologist that works mainly on agricultural issues.  He mentioned that Pyrethrins, which are commonly sold as "organic" pesticides because they are "natural", are actually much more toxic to mammals than the synthetic pyrethrin like pesticides like Permethrin.  Natural is not always safe or good.  I think "low impact" is a better strategy to strive for and that can be either natural/organic, or synthetic depending.

I'm really surprised by the tales of scale killing palms.  I have never seen real damage on a palm from scale.    Are you sure you didn't have mites along with the scale?  Until you learn what to look for, mites are sort of hard to detect, and they are absolutely devastating to indoor/greenhouse plants.  Even when palms "damp off" from fungus, I've noticed that most of the time they have a mite issue a few months before they rot.  

Matt

San Diego

0.6 Acres of a south facing, gently sloped dirt pile, soon to be impenetrable jungle

East of Mount Soledad, in the biggest cold sink in San Diego County.

Zone 10a (I hope), Sunset 24

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Matt-

It's no coincidence that plants like acacias have evolved to provide shelter for ants and temperate decidious trees produce nectar residue to feed ants in perfect timing with tent catepillar populations. Ants are a big enemy of other insects, some won't even cross the scent left behind on ant 'highways'. The Chinese have used ants for a long time to rid crop lands of pests, yet meanwhile, the folks here in Florida spray the outside of their homes after seeing ants, then wonder why Palmetto Bug populations explode. (Ants love cockroach eggs). If you have ants in your greenhouse, you won't have 'terrarium pests' , such as thrips or fungus gnats. Not long ago I read about some University (Rice?) studying plant plots; the ant-less plots always showed a higher rate of fungal and bacterial infections in plants.

You're right about aerating soils, they were recently proven to be bigger players than earthworms (and deeper). Heck, just considering the thousands of insects defecating daily a few meters below the surface, among roots, proves them beneficial to me and their cleaning ability makes them priceless. Even Carpenter Ants have a bad rap, though unlike termites, only consume and nest in well-rotted wood. You know I could go on, but I'm beginning to bore myself. LOL

Scale is opportunistic, if it kills a plant, it was well on it's way to death before they arrived.

Minneola, Florida

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crytpo..

not to be disagreeable, as you obviously know much more than I about this subject...and that being said;

i have to take issue with the final statement in your post.

(cryptobionic @ Nov. 06 2006,23:29)

QUOTE
Scale is opportunistic, if it kills a plant, it was well on it's way to death before they arrived.

it has been my experience that scale (if let unchecked) will literally suck the life out of an otherwise completely healthy encephalartos seedling in short order.

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(Matt in SD @ Nov. 02 2006,13:00)

QUOTE
You guys are crazy...scale is not particularly harmful and you can definitely get rid of it without killing every invertebrate in your yard.  Rub them off with you finger, spray with some insecticidal soap and/or neem oil (I usually mix the two) every two weeks or so until they are gone.  And keep the ants off the plant...if the plant is outside, no ants=no scale over time.

Scale do not pose any sort of immediate threat to a palm (or any plant) so there really is no reason to use toxic stuff to get rid of it.

Matt

gee what about the asian cycad scale sure seems to pose a severe threat to sagos!!!

Things may come to those who wait, but only the things left by those who hustle.

Abraham Lincoln

The way of the transgressor is hard

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From what I've observed in Central and South Florida, Asian Scale doesn't seem to affect C. revoluta plants that are grown incorporated with other foilage and receive regular additional water (on leaves and caudex). It appears that the more exposed and less extra mositure, the more severe and rapid the infestation. Considering their native climate of moderate temps and high rainfall, hot and dry conditions are close to deadly. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. LOL

Matt SD -

I've been touting your 'water as insect repellent' method for years; it's an excellent all-around gardening practice. Have you also noticed a general improvement in the health and appearance of your plants since?

Minneola, Florida

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I think I fall somewhere in between a few of you.

I see a few of the critters and my palms and I just scrape them off.  However, if they start to multiply, and they will do it when you go on vacation of course.... Bad news...  I have a few King Sabels so me and the Asian guys go at in our never ending battle.

Step one:  This is the most under utilized method of removal.... STRONG blast of water.  I use a .99 HD brass nozzle that has no adjustments, just narrows to a small hole.  The white stuff, as all of you know is really just a shell.  if you scrape them off with a finger nail, you will see the brown critters inside.  Blasting these guys with a hose kills about 75% of them.  I do this twice a month.

Step Two:  If the scale starts moving quickly I follow up (after the subject dries) with some type of oil.  I go between volck and an organic oil.  I spray subject twice and the soil around it about 6 feet out.  I do this 2 weeks in a row.

On the bay in Tampa...

10a,9b...

Elev.  10 ft

My current weather station....

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Scale can be a big problem, especially in nurseries. The bigger problem is fighting spider mites. With many plants, you just can't fight them with a washing off with the garden hose. Insecticides must be used.  Scale un-checked, can really cause big problems. And there are different types of scale. Also, if using chemicals, try to rotate with at least two different ones. Insects are known to build up resistance to one insecticide.

Searle Brothers Nursery Inc.

and The Rainforest Collection.

Southwest Ranches,Fl.

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Cryptobionic,

I have pretty much always used water as a first defense against pests so it's hard to say whether or not the plants look better.  These days I have very few pest problems outside (Greenhouse is a different story) so I probably only have to hose down less than 5% of my plants just a few times a summer.

I definitely agree with Jeff about mites being the biggest problem.  Jeff, what do you use for mites?  While I'm a big fan of low impact/organic stuff for outdoor gardening, I think the artificial environment created by greenhouses or for indoor plants just does not lend itself well to the organic approach.  So if you have a magic bullet for mites I'd love to know.  

Matt

San Diego

0.6 Acres of a south facing, gently sloped dirt pile, soon to be impenetrable jungle

East of Mount Soledad, in the biggest cold sink in San Diego County.

Zone 10a (I hope), Sunset 24

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Well Diazanon works I can tell you that.  I won a battle over a D. pink crownshaft.  MattyB (1), mites (0).  After spraying into the crown and letting it do it's thing for an hour or so.  I then sprayed off the plant to allow the natural flora and fauna to return.   I always try and spray off anything that I use insecticide on once it's done it's job.

Matt Bradford

"Manambe Lavaka"

Spring Valley, CA (8.5 miles inland from San Diego Bay)

10B on the hill (635 ft. elevation)

9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

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