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please share your environmentally friendly ways


MattyB

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Hi Ya'll,

Since it came up in another thread I though I'd start a new one.  Can you please share some environmentally friendly products and or gardening methods that you use.  Ya know like neem oil for scale, "Sluggo" product for snails, etc.  I'd really like to start employing safer, earth friendly gardening and I hope others would like to also.  So, what do you do? :)

Matt Bradford

"Manambe Lavaka"

Spring Valley, CA (8.5 miles inland from San Diego Bay)

10B on the hill (635 ft. elevation)

9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

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Great discussion.  Our local Delta riveryways (that flow to San Francisco Bay) are dying, literally some species 90% gone - it's critical hour, and ceasing the flow of chemicals could only help.  So I'd like to add, how do we get landscapers and all the guys maintaining the yards for people to get in on this idea?  Can it cost the same as chemical management?  We need Spanish literature or websites for most of these guys here, though some speak Asian languages too.

Me - I'm composting a lot, and am wondering if any of you have luck keeping nutrients adequate for their palms without chemical fertilization too.  Was thinking of Sluggo too -- do cats eat that stuff?

 San Francisco Bay Area, California

Zone 10a

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I only use insecticide for spot treatment, I never just dose the whole yard for cinch bugs. Same thing for weeds in the yard, I only spot treatment the areas that have a weed problem. I fertilize using slow release fert's and I use less but more often. For ants I use Andro which is a bait rather then a insecticide. My property backs up to a river, the last 35ft or so of the property I mainly have native stuff with a few coconut palms. The turf there is "mow what grows" turf. It receive no irrigation and very little fertilizer. I fertilize the coconuts at the edge of the property with spikes instead of granular fert to decrease runoff. I also use allot of compost from the waste facility, using other peoples waste for my yard.

My area and yard is very rural, woodsy and I like to think of it as a safe haven from the rest of the world, pollution included.

Jupiter FL

in the Zone formally known as 10A

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(redant @ Aug. 31 2006,10:22)

QUOTE
I never just dose the whole yard for cinch bugs.

I think my lawn in the past month has made up for what you havent applied.

I had a terrible Cinch bug invasion and I fortunately caught it in time (and perhaps now only need to resod with maybe 10 pieces).  But, to stop these horrible and tiny creatures I had to apply two heavy yard wide doses of granular insecticide and one dose of liquid.  These bugs are tiny, hard to kill and make a mess of a nice lawn in very short order.  The areas of lawn that they have killed take forever and a day to grow back since the bugs dine on the sod roots.  So, theres nothing left to grow back after they are done.  Thus, resodding is usually in order.

The more of these St. Augustine conversations that pop up...the more I want to get rid of this stuff.  Vanity be damned!

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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In my opinion, lawns are probably the worst problem.  They require LOTS of irrigation, LOTS of fast release chemical fertilizer, and LOTS of insecticide to look good.  

For me the biggest thing is to never make a large scale application of insecticide.  Like Matt in SD has mentioned, once you kill all the good insects you'll be stuck using the chemicals.  I've had pretty good success killing bugs by hand, or just letting the predators take care of them.

Jack Sayers

East Los Angeles

growing cold tolerant palms halfway between the equator and the arctic circle...

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(elHoagie @ Aug. 31 2006,13:01)

QUOTE
I've had pretty good success killing bugs by hand, or just letting the predators take care of them.

With all due respect, that just doesnt work with alot of lawn pests.

"Nature's balance" in some cases doesnt always result in a good looking end result!

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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(elHoagie @ Aug. 31 2006,13:01)

QUOTE
In my opinion, lawns are probably the worst problem.  They require LOTS of irrigation, LOTS of fast release chemical fertilizer, and LOTS of insecticide to look good.  

No doubt about that Jack.

We need some fancy pants landscape designer to bring the "desert SW look" to the rest of the country and make it "cool".  Lawns are the biggest wasters of water and chemicals in just about everyone's yard.

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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I've been using all organic ferts outside now for three years and I would say it's very successful.  I've had fast growth, healthy looking palms (including some marginal stuff), and 0 deaths of palms in the ground.  I put a mix of chicken manure, worm castings, and home-made compost on everything in the spring, then I use liquid organics monthly for the rest of the summer.  For the liquid organics I have used a mix of kelp extract and fish emulsion for a couple years and then this year switched to a product called "Earthjuice" which I like better.  I also mix in Epsom salt (~1TB/gallon) on every application.  And I mulch with compost from the city dump once a year.

This summer I also tried to use the liquid organic (Earthjuice) on my potted plants and in my greenhouse.  I would say that this experiment was a failure.  After about 5 months I was clearly seeing signs of nitrogen deficiency in many palms.  I bought a big bag of Nutricote a few weeks ago, and my potted palms are already looking better.  I do still think that treatment of potted palms with Kelp extract as a supplement is beneficial, but I think you need the chemical ferts for the major nutrients.

Someone on this board (I think Ken Johnson) had some strong arguments for chemical ferts over organics based on field studies in florida.  My feeling at this point is that for the organic ferts to be effective you have a to have a rich soil with strong adsorption properties (i.e. good clay and organic matter content).  The organic ferts do not usually have the nutrients in a form that is immediately available to the plants, and they must be decomposed either over time, or more quickly by microbes in the soil (bacteria and fungi).  My experience with my potted plants, I believe, is probably similar to the Florida studies.  Potting soil, and sandy soils (i.e. Florida) have a low water capacity and adsorption ability compared to the more typical clay soils in California.  So it's not too surprising to me that chemical ferts work better in some soil types since the organics will wash away before the nutrients are processed into a form available for the plants.  This is all conjecture, but I do strongly believe that the "best" fertilizer really depends on your soil structure and composition and lab tests will not give universal answers to this question.

Matt

San Diego

0.6 Acres of a south facing, gently sloped dirt pile, soon to be impenetrable jungle

East of Mount Soledad, in the biggest cold sink in San Diego County.

Zone 10a (I hope), Sunset 24

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I use Whitney's Palm Food, and their compost. It's all organic.  I can't say that I'm knowledgable enough yet to tell if anything is deficient, but they seem happy enough - except the Achontophoenix C, who has yet to recover from severe burning.

I've been killing the hoppers manually - literally.

I think I read on the old forum, never use anything with 'cide' incorporated into the name.

Scott

San Fernando Valley, California

Sunset Climate Zone 18

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(spockvr6 @ Aug. 31 2006,14:08)

QUOTE
With all due respect, that just doesnt work with alot of lawn pests.

"Nature's balance" in some cases doesnt always result in a good looking end result!

Yet another reason why I don't have a lawn...

Jack Sayers

East Los Angeles

growing cold tolerant palms halfway between the equator and the arctic circle...

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(elHoagie @ Aug. 31 2006,15:46)

QUOTE

(spockvr6 @ Aug. 31 2006,14:08)

QUOTE
With all due respect, that just doesnt work with alot of lawn pests.

"Nature's balance" in some cases doesnt always result in a good looking end result!

Yet another reason why I don't have a lawn...

And another reason why I slowly keep losing lawn area myself......as I fill the yard will mulched palm planting beds!

This makes me think of what a few of my neighbors have said to me.

In summary---

"Your yard looks great!  But, your water bill must be outrageous!  All those palms and plants must be so hard and expensive to keep up".

My answer every single time is the same.......I use (literally) 10 times the water/chemicals/fertilizer on the lawn than I do on everything else put together!

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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(elHoagie @ Aug. 31 2006,13:01)

QUOTE
In my opinion, lawns are probably the worst problem.  They require LOTS of irrigation, LOTS of fast release chemical fertilizer, and LOTS of insecticide to look good.  

For me the biggest thing is to never make a large scale application of insecticide.  Like Matt in SD has mentioned, once you kill all the good insects you'll be stuck using the chemicals.  I've had pretty good success killing bugs by hand, or just letting the predators take care of them.

This is a very good thread.  And elHoagie, I totally agree with you on the lawn problem.  In addition to the insecticide & weed-n-feed, in order to have a decent lawn here, you have to use lawn-sprinklers.  In FL, this isn't environmentally friendly - as demonstrated by our frequent water restrictions.

Conserving water is important here.  For water-loving palms, I plan to group these together, thus limiting the areas to be watered.  There's one spot in front where the roebs are grouped with lutescens.  In back, I'm hoping to plant some archontos - so they'll be grouped with the rivs.   The other palms I'm planning on won't need much supplemental irrigation, if any.

Otherwise, I'm trying to emphasize using drought-tolerate plants that can handle our rainier years as well: crotons, allamandas, shefflera, crepe myrtle - and these also don't need much insecticide.  

I use plants that are fairly pest-free, and try to limit use of insecticide to my roeb and the hibs - a one-year application of Bayer Advanced Tree and Shrub.

I was told - and don't know if it's correct - that the Safer products are environmentally friendly.  That's supposedly what Selby Gardens uses.  A couple of older neighbors told me they used dishsoap in a hose-end sprayer to discourage sucking pests.  Another neighbor added garlic to it.  Dunno - I'm thinking of trying it to see if it works.

St. Pete

Zone - a wacked-out place between 9b & 10

Elevation = 44' - not that it does any good

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And I mulch with compost from the city dump once a year.

Matt, I assume this is the Miramar facility.  Any weed seeds in the compost?  It's supposed to be well composted to cook all weed seed and pathogens but I'm a little worried about getting nut sedge (wee wee wee wee sound fx) It's been rumored to endure composting. I've only used the compost underneath A1's soil.  What about the dump's Mulch?  

In my opinion, lawns are probably the worst problem.  They require LOTS of irrigation, LOTS of fast release chemical fertilizer, and LOTS of insecticide to look good.

Jack, I agree with the lots of water part, but I have an awesome lawn and I use minimal fertilizer and no insecticide ever.  My lawn is Tall Fescue from seed and the soil underneath is well ammended in most areas so that may have something to do with it.  I usually just buy a cheap bag of ammonium sulfate 25-0-0 and apply very lightly maybe twice a year.  If you put too much you have to mow way too much and empty the bag like 100 times...it sucks.  I didn't even put any on this year.  Just didn't need it.

I have heard about some garlic, beer, soap food/remedies for lawns.  Whutupwitdat?

Ok, so enough about lawns.  What about pesticide alternatives.  Matt said he has major ants.  I'm sure most of us have battled these guys at one time or another.  I usually spray a thin barrier line of Diazanon all the way around the base of my house (trying not to soak the soil and hurt my worms).  This keeps them out of the house and I let them have the yard.  But, if something gets out of control I do spray a trail once in a while, again trying to only lightly spray the trail surface not soaking anything.  Do traps work?  Cinnamon?

Matt Bradford

"Manambe Lavaka"

Spring Valley, CA (8.5 miles inland from San Diego Bay)

10B on the hill (635 ft. elevation)

9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

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Matt,

Yeah it's the compost from Miramar, I also used to get it from El-Corazon, but I think they're basically the same. I haven't noticed any weed problem, at least not beyond what I normally have.  I definitely have much less of a weed problem in the mulched areas than in the non-mulched areas.  

Ants suck.  We don't have too much of a problem in the house, so I guess I shouldn't complain, but in the yard they are everywhere.  A couple trails are ~2" wide and 50 feet long.  I've tried different concoctions of blended meat (steak, chicken), egg whites, sugar all mixed with Borax.  They eat that stuff, but I've never taken out a colony.  I've also tried pretty much all the commercial baits, and the ants won't tough any of them.  And as a last resort just recently I tried Amdro Ant Block granules (they don't seem to eat that stuf feither.  I feel pretty comfortable with the bait stations in general since the chemical only go where the ant takes it.  At least this year the ants don't seem to be spending too much time cultivating scale and mealy bugs in my plants!

Other than the ants, everything else can be controlled safely and effectively with soap spray or just water spray (mealy bugs, scale, mites etc...) and sluggo (snails and slugs).  I don't get a lot of grasshopper though.  

Speaking of lawns.  My lawn looks like crap most of the time, but I think it's the dog pee.  But then Matt you have a dog too right?  Is it true that male dog pee is not as hard on lawns as female dog pee?  

Matt

San Diego

0.6 Acres of a south facing, gently sloped dirt pile, soon to be impenetrable jungle

East of Mount Soledad, in the biggest cold sink in San Diego County.

Zone 10a (I hope), Sunset 24

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(Matt in SD @ Aug. 31 2006,17:57)

QUOTE
Other than the ants, everything else can be controlled safely and effectively with soap spray or just water spray (mealy bugs, scale, mites etc...) and sluggo (snails and slugs).

I agree.  Soap spray has worked well for me on scale and mealy bugs (I've never had a problem with mites).  Ants just suck.  I've tried a few of the commercial ant baits, and none have worked at all.  At this point I just give up with the stupid ants...

Jack Sayers

East Los Angeles

growing cold tolerant palms halfway between the equator and the arctic circle...

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Like many of you have already said, lawn grass sucks. I would love to get rid of it (st. augustine) but the home owner's association requires st. augustine grass. What other grass is appropriate for Florida that can tolerate the hot wet summers and cool dry winters with little to no chemical use and stay green all year?

Parrish, FL

Zone 9B

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(ruskinPalms @ Aug. 31 2006,18:53)

QUOTE
Like many of you have already said, lawn grass sucks. I would love to get rid of it (st. augustine) but the home owner's association requires st. augustine grass. What other grass is appropriate for Florida that can tolerate the hot wet summers and cool dry winters with little to no chemical use and stay green all year?

Unfortunately  there is a reason why st. augustine is the most used grass in S. FL.

WWW.grassseed.com has some very helpful information regarding all the diferent choices.

Jupiter FL

in the Zone formally known as 10A

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"Your yard looks great!  But, your water bill must be outrageous!  All those palms and plants must be so hard and expensive to keep up".

My answer every single time is the same.......I use (literally) 10 times the water/chemicals/fertilizer on the lawn than I do on everything else put together!

Larry, very well said..... I have to water my lawn 3x/day to keep it green - I water the palms once every 3 days... or even less... so, by comparison, there is no comparison... Lawns (to look good) take so much water and fertilizer to keep green. Luckily, where I live, they look pretty good most of the time because we get a decent amount of rain and in the fall the temps drop so the lawns really green-up - but, for the most part, they use up a ton of resources compared to other Landscape plants.

Bobby

Long Island, New York  Zone 7a (where most of the southern Floridians are originally from)

AVERAGE TEMPS

Summer Highs  : 85-90f/day,  68-75f / night

Winter Lows     : 38-45f/day,   25-35f / night

Extreme Low    : 10-20f/day,    0-10f / night   but VERY RARE

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(spockvr6 @ Aug. 31 2006,11:49)

QUOTE
[

I had a terrible Cinch bug invasion and I fortunately caught it in time (and perhaps now only need to resod with maybe 10 pieces).  But, to stop these horrible and tiny creatures I had to apply two heavy yard wide doses of granular insecticide and one dose of liquid.  These bugs are tiny, hard to kill and make a mess of a nice lawn in very short order.  The areas of lawn that they have killed take forever and a day to grow back since the bugs dine on the sod roots.  So, theres nothing left to grow back after they are done.  Thus, resodding is usually in order.

Here is what Cinch bugs can do to a St. Augustine lawn in a few days.  I had them attack several areas at once, this is but one of them.

If left unchecked, within a few weeks the entire lawn will be devoured.

2381006970037238133WCOZvI_th.jpg

by spockvr6

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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Is it true that male dog pee is not as hard on lawns as female dog pee?

Yes, the girls are worse because their pee is more caustic.  Also, males usually lift their leg and it's sort of gets distributed over a little area.  The girls just squat and drop it all in one little spot.  I have to water some planters with a hose and I know their favorite pee spots on the lawn so I just spray them down periodically.  Although, my back yard isn't as nice as the front due to the dogs.  Daily walks help too.  They seem to save all their pee and poo for the park...it's like clockwork.

Matt Bradford

"Manambe Lavaka"

Spring Valley, CA (8.5 miles inland from San Diego Bay)

10B on the hill (635 ft. elevation)

9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

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I'm not sure what I could do to become more environmentally friendly.  I haven't needed to use any insecticides or fungicides yet, I've just never had a problem or maybe I have and things just died, because I didn't know.  I am using chemical fertilizer, so should I change to something else.  Many of the alternatives don't suit pot culture or are derived from dead animals, which being veggie, I won't do.  I could change back to terracotta pots, but they are very expensive compared with plastic.  I did use a systemic weed killer recently, having got fed up with the same weeds coming back again and again.

I try to use stored rainwater as much as possible, at least when it is available.  My natural gas heater is probably a better choice than most fuel sources, although there is still a finite amount of natural gas available, albeit more than enough for my lifespan.

]

Corey Lucas-Divers

Dorset, UK

Ave Jul High 72F/22C (91F/33C Max)

Ave Jul Low 52F/11C (45F/7C Min)

Ave Jan High 46F/8C (59F/15C Max)

Ave Jan Low 34F/1C (21F/-6C Min)

Ave Rain 736mm pa

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Bobby, you water your lawn 3X a day?  Wow, that's crazy man.  I bet it looks good though.  I wonder why you have to water it so much.  We're pretty hot here a way inland and I'm sure much drier than you.  I wonder if your winters have something to do with it?  The grass dies from the snow and has to start all over reestablishing itself every year.  The first few years of growing my lawn from seed it needed a lot of water.  Now that it's established it needs less.  

So, I've only had a few minor run-ins with mealy bug and scale.  Just moving the plant to a more open, airy spot and spraying it off with water seemed to clear it up.  For in ground plants I just made sure that my companion plants were all trimmed back so there was a lot of air flow.  Also, plants that can be moved into the sun I did so and that cleared it up.  I've never had to use the soap spray.  Sounds simple enough, and safe.  Just add a few drops of liquid dish soap to a spray bottle?  I heard you can add vegetable oil w/ the soap too but not to apply if it's over 80F.

One of the biggest pests I have is caterpillars at certain times in the year.  They generally stay away from palms but will eat them occasionally.  I've found that flowering plants, especially the canna, attracts yellow jackets/wasps and I've discovered that these guys will eat caterpillars!   I see them all the time just chomping away on caterpillars.  It's so awesome!  So I'll definately keep lots of canna around.

Matt Bradford

"Manambe Lavaka"

Spring Valley, CA (8.5 miles inland from San Diego Bay)

10B on the hill (635 ft. elevation)

9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

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Bobby, you water your lawn 3X a day?  Wow, that's crazy man.  I bet it looks good though.  I wonder why you have to water it so much.  We're pretty hot here a way inland and I'm sure much drier than you.  I wonder if your winters have something to do with it?  The grass dies from the snow and has to start all over reestablishing itself every year.  The first few years of growing my lawn from seed it needed a lot of water.  Now that it's established it needs less.  

Actually, Matty...

Our lawn doesn't really die in the winter - it kinda just sits there in animated suspension From Late November until Late March/Early April.  I think I water it so much because the grass that I have is not very tolerant of heat and a few days over 95 kinda does it in... It's been really cool here (mid 70's)  the past few days and it looks fantastic so I cut back on watering... And now with ernesto about to hit us with 8 inches of rain, I think I'll be covered for awhile.

Bobby

Long Island, New York  Zone 7a (where most of the southern Floridians are originally from)

AVERAGE TEMPS

Summer Highs  : 85-90f/day,  68-75f / night

Winter Lows     : 38-45f/day,   25-35f / night

Extreme Low    : 10-20f/day,    0-10f / night   but VERY RARE

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Organic grower here, not so much by choice, but experience. First taking baby steps towards organic gardening, now I know those crazy old codgers were right all along, today I don't even waste one twig. For me, the most valuable product that comes out of a bag are the oak leaves found in a trash bag by the curb.  

It took years to learn that most of the stuff taught in my Horticulture classes was crap. Almost every problem found in the garden can be rectified by changing one's growing practices. Instead of "use this", the best solution is usually "do this".

Regardless of what the package states, there is no such thing as a specific insecticide. nsecticides kill everything with an exoskeleton including valuable predators (and most likely sicken other animals). This is why once you use a pesticide, you actually encourage infestaions and will be forced into a cycle of using poisons as long as you are growing plants. Sounds like a paradox, but I've found that the more animals you encourage in your garden, the less problems you'll have with animals.

The same goes for fungicides, they decimate countless valuable soil microbes along with fungus. Plants have co-evolved with soil organisms, many depend on each other, getting rid of them is a major step backward.

In my opinion, poisions have no place in residential areas, it's perferable to leave thier usage to the professional growers who use the recommended dosage so we don't have to buy plants with little holes in them.

Crikey, I've done the soapbox thing again...

Minneola, Florida

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Crypto-

Im with ya....but how the heck can I keep my lawn looking like a lawn using organic means?  

This is the area that I apply the most "poison" and I wouldnt mind finding out a better way to do things.

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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(spockvr6 @ Sep. 07 2006,09:42)

QUOTE
Crypto-

Im with ya....but how the heck can I keep my lawn looking like a lawn using organic means?  

This is the area that I apply the most "poison" and I wouldnt mind finding out a better way to do things.

I was supposed to be looking up grasses online this morning.  I went to the palm board instead.  :D  "oops."

I'm having this problem right now - during the tree-removal, their heavy equipment dug up what was left of my St. Augustine lawn (bobcat got the rest of it months ago).  So I need to replace the grass - fortunately not a very large area.

I don't want bahia.  And I'd prefer an alternative to St. Augustine that wouldn't be demanding of pesticides or so much water.  I've been thinking of using Zoysia (not the Meyer which has some trouble with cinch bugs).  It's supposed to need fewer chemicals and less water.  Is anyone here using it, or know anyone who is?  

Many years ago, my family's lawn was Zoysia (in the south) and it needed no pesticide.  They didn't have sprinklers and seldom (if ever) watered it.  Don't know how it'll do in FL though.

St. Pete

Zone - a wacked-out place between 9b & 10

Elevation = 44' - not that it does any good

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