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bubba

Are locations in California "frost-free"?

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BS Man about Palms

You know, something I saw tonight down by Ocean beach, (where I-8 ends at the Pacific Ocean) made me wonder if something could reveal an interesting microclimate.

I heard a lot of screaming birds and then remembered there are some wild Parrots, McCaws or the like that frequent the area and fly around multiplying and adding color (Blues, Greens, Reds and Yellows)  I suspect I saw at least 40 flying around.

I would guess they wouldn't flourish if it was too cold?

Bill

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bubba

Robert, I apologize for not getting back to you quickly.It was copyrighted in 1961 by Dale Stuart King of Six Shooter Canyon,Globe,Arizona. Indeed, a very photogenic Arecastrum Romanzoffianum on page 45. I am also partial to the amazing Pritchardia Pacifica on page 83. This book was well before it's time.

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Robert Lee Riffle

No apology necessary, bubba.

I guess the edition I have is a reprint in which DSK didn't bother to put the pub date.  I found I had written inside that I ordered the little gem from "a mail order bookstore" in AZ in 1965, not the early 60s.  Maybe I'm not QUITE as old as I thought .... yeah, sure!

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bubba

Rolling back to my first topic on the Board on or about July 5, 2006. Robert L. Riffle chipped in on the topic together with a number of other interesting Palm  aficionados. I am still not certain who the "Guest"was or how one qualifies for such an elevated distinction. It will be interesting to see what topic heading this discussion ends up if it materializes.

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DoomsDave

Coconuts don't need to be frost free.

Just not frost-ee.

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_Keith

Any thread with RLR is a winner to me, frost free or not.

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Josh-O
On 12/8/2015, 7:02:46, _Keith said:

Any thread with RLR is a winner to me, frost free or not.

:greenthumb: agreed!

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bubba

One more time for grins!

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happ

Haven't been very active in a while but I have documented daily temps/ rainfall at this location since 1995. Frost and/or freezing temps have never occurred here during the past 23 years. Micro climates in the LA foothills rarely experience minimums below 40°. In-fact today's minimum of 45F is the coldest temp this winter, thus far.  

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bubba

Happ,

As Phil stated in this old thread initiated twelve (12) years ago, “never say never”. Sunset 23 is the area in California where I believe Cocos nucifera has it’s best chance and your micro-climate sounds ideal. Never too cold but enough heat required to make it happen.

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happ
9 minutes ago, bubba said:

Happ,

As Phil stated in this old thread initiated twelve (12) years ago, “never say never”. Sunset 23 is the area in California where I believe Cocos nucifera has it’s best chance and your micro-climate sounds ideal. Never too cold but enough heat required to make it happen.

 

Agree, our day is coming and am mindful that snowfall covered these hills in 1949. December 1990 was the last date for subfreezing temps but that was when I lived down in a nearby canyon. I have a high canopy that protects sensitive palms but I truly do not believe coconut palms are appropriate in our relatively cool winter/ spring climate; they look sickly. Even veitchia are marginal. My v. arecina looks OK but ones planted as street trees always look parched/ unhappy in Los Angeles.

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Ben in Norcal

I could probably grow a coconut up here in NorCal this winter, though.  Not even near a frost so far.

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happ
5 minutes ago, Ben in Norcal said:

I could probably grow a coconut up here in NorCal this winter, though.  Not even near a frost so far.

But why plant a tree that will never bear fruit and looks miserable most of the year?

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Ben in Norcal
Just now, happ said:

But why plant a tree that will never bear fruit and looks miserable most of the year?

Yeah, I wouldn't.  Point is only that this winter is a barometer for nothing...warmest since I moved to California in 2004.

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happ
9 minutes ago, Ben in Norcal said:

Yeah, I wouldn't.  Point is only that this winter is a barometer for nothing...warmest since I moved to California in 2004.

Yes winters have been warm for several years even in this La Nina event. Endless drought [with exception of last year] seems to agree with subtropical palms since they rarely get "cold/ wet feet" [winter rainfall]. SST temps have been elevated in SoCal for a number of years; the warmer nights/ higher dew points help.  

Edited by happ
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mdsonofthesouth
1 hour ago, Ben in Norcal said:

Yeah, I wouldn't.  Point is only that this winter is a barometer for nothing...warmest since I moved to California in 2004.

 

While the rest of the country is experiencing the coldest since 1989...Thankfully we warmed back up though for now. Sorry just jealous I guess :P

Edited by mdsonofthesouth
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GottmitAlex
1 hour ago, Ben in Norcal said:

I could probably grow a coconut up here in NorCal this winter, though.  Not even near a frost so far.

LoL. Like most threads, they end up being about the platonic palm. 

 

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CroToni
On 5/7/2006, 20:19:16, bubba said:

Desmond Muirhead's book on Palm's reported that freezing temperatures had been recorded on the pier at Santa Catalina Island and accordingly no location in California could be considered "frost-free".The discussion on this board suggests that their are many micro-climates in California that are "frost-free".Where are the micro-climates in California that may be most suitable for the growing of coconut palms?

Malibu!!!!

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happ
11 hours ago, CroToni said:

Malibu!!!!

Evidently, Corona also

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kinzyjr

I had always wondered if Santa Catalina island would be frost free, but according to the stats for Avalon, it has went below freezing there.

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happ

Montgomery palm is not a cocos nucifera but can look decent in California in winter.

Today

1-23-18b.jpg

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Josh-O
On 1/22/2018, 7:51:05, kinzyjr said:

I had always wondered if Santa Catalina island would be frost free, but according to the stats for Avalon, it has went below freezing there.

in 2007

 

nobody was above freezing, but not everyone had frost in the best micro climates. I hit 30F, 29, 29, 32  in Carlsbad for 4 nights and my high was 42F with no frost and very litle damage to my palms up high on the hill. now the bottom of the hill was another story unfortunately. some of the inland valleys saw 18F :o

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happ
54 minutes ago, Josh-O said:

in 2007

 

nobody was above freezing, but not everyone had frost in the best micro climates. I hit 30F, 29, 29, 32  in Carlsbad for 4 nights and my high was 42F with no frost and very litle damage to my palms up high on the hill. now the bottom of the hill was another story unfortunately. some of the inland valleys saw 18F :o

Not all areas and actually many locations were very cold but above freezing during the 2007 event including downtown Los Angeles, these airports: LAX, Santa Monica, John Wayne, Lindbergh Field, Oxnard to name a few.  But places like Burbank [26°], Van Nuys [27°] Ontario [27°], Long Beach [31°], Oceanside [26°], Fullerton [28°] Palm Springs [25°] had at least one night below freezing.

Edited by happ
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happ

Anecdotal evidence aside Los Angeles minimums were 34F & 35° on 12/22-23 1990 [I recorded 30F on both days]. The actual last freeze for LA was 32° & 30° on 12/8 & 9th in 1978. I was living in El Sereno and remember all the burned ficus street trees.

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TexasColdHardyPalms
On 1/29/2018, 3:01:50, happ said:

Anecdotal evidence aside Los Angeles minimums were 34F & 35° on 12/22-23 1990 [I recorded 30F on both days]. The actual last freeze for LA was 32° & 30° on 12/8 & 9th in 1978. I was living in El Sereno and remember all the burned ficus street trees.

Based on this data along with the continued urban spread downtown LA could reasonably be considered frost free?

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happ
25 minutes ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Based on this data along with the continued urban spread downtown LA could reasonably be considered frost free?

Because of mountains/ canyons/ low elevation ravines/ valleys it is impossible to make blanket statements on frost in coastal SoCal. As noted on another thread, even John Wayne airport/ Irvine recorded freezing minimums twice during the Dec 1990 event. What makes LA a bit different than, for example, Oceanside is the east/ west positioning of the transverse ranges [San Gabriel/ Tehachapi] extending 100 miles inland from Los Angeles. The diurnal "breathing"/ offshore/ onshore flow circulates the air. But the USC station [official NWS downtown thermometer] is actually in the basin outside the windy areas so urban heating is a likely contributing factor. Even San Diego/ Lindbergh Field only dropped to 37° for the coldest minimum during Dec 1990 and 35° in Jan 1978 and 2007 while many areas within the city limits were well below freezing. My understanding is that the last day it reached and/ or went below 32F was in 1913 but the airport is right on San Diego bay.   

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Hollywood Palms
On 1/24/2018, 8:35:52, Josh-O said:

in 2007

 

nobody was above freezing, but not everyone had frost in the best micro climates. I hit 30F, 29, 29, 32  in Carlsbad for 4 nights and my high was 42F with no frost and very litle damage to my palms up high on the hill. now the bottom of the hill was another story unfortunately. some of the inland valleys saw 18F :o

I was above freezing in 2007 - only got to 39°F.  This "winter," my low was 47°. Most evenings, I was above 50°F. In the Swish Alps of the Hollywood Hills, we have a lot of exposed rock that retains heat as does the decomposing granite. Outpost Estates (where I am), Whitley Heights and parts of Hollywood Dell never freeze.

My biggest challenge is that living in the canyon, as opposed to living on top of the ridge, is that I lose my sun at 2:00 pm in mid December. And no sunsets unless I climb up to the top of the property.

But no frost, freezes or many temps below 44°.

David

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DoomsDave

I'm just gonna scream.

It's such a warm winter, I can't help but gloat at the people in Ohio.

 

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DoomsDave
On 1/24/2018, 8:35:52, Josh-O said:

in 2007

 

nobody was above freezing, but not everyone had frost in the best micro climates. I hit 30F, 29, 29, 32  in Carlsbad for 4 nights and my high was 42F with no frost and very litle damage to my palms up high on the hill. now the bottom of the hill was another story unfortunately. some of the inland valleys saw 18F :o

URK

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TexasColdHardyPalms

What about pacific palisades? Wouldn't most of that area be a good (frostless) microclimate as well?

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DoomsDave
2 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

What about pacific palisades? Wouldn't most of that area be a good (frostless) microclimate as well?

Yes

Buried under piles and piles and piles of money.

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Xerarch
9 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

I'm just gonna scream.

It's such a warm winter, I can't help but gloat at the people in Ohio.

 

:(

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happ

2007 wasn't that long ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Western_United_States_freeze

Visiting family in San Diego, I recall looking down on frost covered Admiral Baker golf course from a mesa in Tierrasanta.   

 

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Alicante

I think Santa Catalina island is the least prone place in California. Their all time record low is -2ºC in January, no other month had freezes. I guess January had few additional freezes, but all we know is that -2ºC was the coldest. Still a bit strange how the airport there has in average 0.4in of snow per year (at least what Wikipedia says) which I thought was as rare as the freezes are. Technically nowhere in California didn't record a freeze, I agree with many other users from here, I don't think there is a freezeless zone in Cali.

About the coconuts thing, take account that cocos can grow in places with very sporadical freezes, as long as they have warm winters. Coconuts can't grow in very mild, extremely subtropical climates, such as the Azores islands, where some of them never had a temp under 3-4ºC (about 40F) yet they're too cool for a coconut 4-5 months a year.

That's why they have success in Salton, CA and such places. Normally extreme cold there happens 3-4 times a century, meanwhile a normal January will have 20-21ºC/68-70F avg highs. Many of them will be sunny highs well surpassing 25ºC/77F which is a coconut's desire.

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DoomsDave
On 2/5/2018, 12:51:38, happ said:

2007 wasn't that long ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Western_United_States_freeze

Visiting family in San Diego, I recall looking down on frost covered Admiral Baker golf course from a mesa in Tierrasanta.   

 

Yowza, that Wiki report way understated how bad things were, at least in my case.

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happ
13 hours ago, Alicante said:

I think Santa Catalina island is the least prone place in California. Their all time record low is -2ºC in January, no other month had freezes. I guess January had few additional freezes, but all we know is that -2ºC was the coldest. Still a bit strange how the airport there has in average 0.4in of snow per year (at least what Wikipedia says) which I thought was as rare as the freezes are. Technically nowhere in California didn't record a freeze, I agree with many other users from here, I don't think there is a freezeless zone in Cali.

About the coconuts thing, take account that cocos can grow in places with very sporadical freezes, as long as they have warm winters. Coconuts can't grow in very mild, extremely subtropical climates, such as the Azores islands, where some of them never had a temp under 3-4ºC (about 40F) yet they're too cool for a coconut 4-5 months a year.

That's why they have success in Salton, CA and such places. Normally extreme cold there happens 3-4 times a century, meanwhile a normal January will have 20-21ºC/68-70F avg highs. Many of them will be sunny highs well surpassing 25ºC/77F which is a coconut's desire.

I think it is a misunderstanding of temperature inversion. For example, the difference in elevation of Valencia and Bunol is over 1000' at a distance of under 40km/ 25 miles. My hunch is that it affects frost/ temperature and am curious what your observations are.  Santa Catalina island is basically mountains rising out of the sea. Readings are greatly subject to terrain/ elevation of individual stations. For example in the city limits of Los Angeles within 15 miles apart the airport/ beach averages 20 degrees cooler than the San Fernando valley in August [LAX: 76°/ Woodland Hills: 96°]. San Francisco is not an island but nearly frost-free by American standards.

2-16-18.jpg

Edited by happ

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Darold Petty

I haven't had a white frost for 15 years, but no summer warmth either !!  :mrlooney:  Lowest ever for my garden was December, 1990 at 26F for four nights in a row.

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happ
3 hours ago, Darold Petty said:

I haven't had a white frost for 15 years, but no summer warmth either !!  :mrlooney:  Lowest ever for my garden was December, 1990 at 26F for four nights in a row.

Yes, chilly summers but relatively mild winter minimums for 37N latitude.

According to historic data, San Francisco has quite infrequent freezes https://www.currentresults.com/Yearly-Weather/USA/CA/San-Francisco/extreme-annual-san-francisco-low-temperature.php

Since 1921:

December 22, 1990: 28° 

February 6, 1989: 31° 

December 9, 1971: 30° 

January 21, 1962: 32° 

January 10, 1949: 32° 

December, 11, 1932: 27° 

January 19, 1922: 32° 

 

Edited by happ
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happ
On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2018‎ ‎4‎:‎15‎:‎11‎, happ said:

Because of mountains/ canyons/ low elevation ravines/ valleys it is impossible to make blanket statements on frost in coastal SoCal. As noted on another thread, even John Wayne airport/ Irvine recorded freezing minimums twice during the Dec 1990 event. What makes LA a bit different than, for example, Oceanside is the east/ west positioning of the transverse ranges [San Gabriel/ Tehachapi] extending 100 miles inland from Los Angeles. The diurnal "breathing"/ offshore/ onshore flow circulates the air. But the USC station [official NWS downtown thermometer] is actually in the basin outside the windy areas so urban heating is a likely contributing factor. Even San Diego/ Lindbergh Field only dropped to 37° for the coldest minimum during Dec 1990 and 35° in Jan 1978 and 2007 while many areas within the city limits were well below freezing. My understanding is that the last day it reached and/ or went below 32F was in 1913 but the airport is right on San Diego bay.   

Correction:

"Since 1950, San Diego has only dropped to 32 degrees or colder one time (Jan. 13, 1963) at Lindbergh Field. Los Angeles dropped to the freezing mark or colder the same date as San Diego and also on Dec. 20 and Dec. 21, 1968, at Los Angeles International Airport."

https://weather.com/science/weather-explainers/news/last-freeze-average-date

Edited by happ

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