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A tree for the front yard


Dave-Vero

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I have nothing against laurel oaks if they're a safe distance from buildings, cars, whatever. The almost-evergreen oaks (different subgenus from live oaks; they're reds, lives are whites) grow fast, get huge, and drop all sorts of debris before dying young. My front-yard tree is only 6' from the house, just 4' from the eaves.

The front yard is pretty much dominated by a pair of huge laurels just across the property line in my neighbor's yard. If my laurel goes, there won't be enough space for a live oak to spread out. Live oaks grow horizontally, with low canopies. They're savannah trees, while Laurels are tall forest trees. University of Florida

Without the live oak, there would be space for a really big palm like a Bismarckia or even a royal. But the yard's stuffed with palms already. Any ideas for shade trees? I think a really big crape myrtle with Japanese parentage (Lagerstroemia faurei) would be about the right size. These whopping big 'Muskogee' crape myrtles at Leu are pretty impressive.

post-275-007851900 1317757240_thumb.jpg

On the other hand, does anyone know about yellow poinciana (Peltphorum dubium). I think Eric from Orlando has reported on it being successful in older parts of town. How about the Taiwan sweetgum? It might be better-behaved than our native species. Since Taiwan has lots of typhoons, it might even be wind resistant.

Fla. climate center: 100-119 days>85 F
USDA 1990 hardiness zone 9B
Current USDA hardiness zone 10a
4 km inland from Indian River; 27º N (equivalent to Brisbane)

Central Orlando's urban heat island may be warmer than us

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How about Michelia? I love the look and fragrance of these trees.

Matt Bradford

"Manambe Lavaka"

Spring Valley, CA (8.5 miles inland from San Diego Bay)

10B on the hill (635 ft. elevation)

9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

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michelia champaca is an incredible choice because:

it is beautiful

flowers smell really good

cold tolerant! Not kidding- mine got hit with 26 f and did just fine!

easy to propogate (via airlayering once it gets size)

I would buy a 15 gal minimum size, larger if you can find it. They are slow from 3 to 7gal. Moderate grower for me. Top notch choice and second Matt's call.

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Michelia champaca is indeed available from growers in the Palm Beach and Broward County areas. The pdf on magnolias from Leu Gardens indicates it's kind of tender. Our all-time low was 23 (with last December being 26), so we're probably OK in terms of hardiness. My neighborhood has a huge old mango, but a big mahogany was removed after damage in 1989 (that 23 degree event).

I'm not sure that I've seen Michelia. There might be some at Mounts Botanical Garden in West Palm Beach, which will host a palm sale this weekend. I don't exactly have space in the yard, what with a big cycad, Encephalartos hildebrandtii, planted this year.

I'm not thinking about southern magnolia (Magnolia grandiflora) because we're about 60 miles south of the southern range limit (although that need not be a big deal), because they're really messy trees with those cones and leaves, and because finding nursery plants that grow to be big may be difficult. The horticultural industry has been working like crazy to turn these tall forest trees into big shrubs.

A few years ago, I was in an old daimyo (feudal lord) garden in Tokyo. Adjacent to the big lake was a big, intensively trimmed tree with broad evergreen leaves. I thought it must be some very exotic Japanese species that I'd never seen or even heard about. Wrong. Southern magnolia. I've even seen them in temple precincts.

Heathcote Botanical Gardens in a nearby town has a huge old avocado tree. It looks as though it may have laurel wilt, a disease that's driving a native relative to extinction and may end Florida's avocado industry (we do grow some).

Fla. climate center: 100-119 days>85 F
USDA 1990 hardiness zone 9B
Current USDA hardiness zone 10a
4 km inland from Indian River; 27º N (equivalent to Brisbane)

Central Orlando's urban heat island may be warmer than us

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The fragrance of Michelia is wonderful. One of the species is used as the base for "Chanel No. 5" perfume, another is the base for "Joy" perfume.

no drugs needed!

Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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Dave,

I don't know if they have a Michelia at Mounts. I do know they are growing out west where I live. I have a small one that I haven't planted out yet. But the person I bought it from has a nice one in her garden and she lives as far west as I do. I think there may also be one at the Garden of the Four Arts in Palm Beach.

Palmmermaid

Kitty Philips

West Palm Beach, FL

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On the other hand, does anyone know about yellow poinciana (Peltphorum dubium). I think Eric from Orlando has reported on it being successful in older parts of town.

Dave-

In my mother in laws neighborhood in Palm Harbor, FL there are a number of very very massive Peltophorum. I dont know when they were planted, but the neighborhood was built in the 1970's. I would then infer that these trees would do fine in Vero.

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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Here a flower of my Michelia insignia. It does need some summer watering to look its best.

Can you grow Fagraea Berteriana "Pua keni keni " ( Perfume Flower Tree)?

DSC00024-2.jpg

Edited by Palm crazy
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I'm pretty certain that I know Peltophorum dubium from several healthy old trees in Vero Beach. I need to check them to see if last winter's freeze caused damage (I think not). So they're worth considering. In the magnolia/michela department, I'm bothered that the older magnolia grandiflora trees in town are pretty scruffy. I probably lived too long in Jacksonville, which had really big, wild ones. Ironically, you'd sometimes see a magnolia growing straight up from beneath a live oak, through the oak's crown, and building its own crown above the live oak. Of course if you'd rather keep the live oak, the only proper solution was to get rid of the magnoiia. As Dr. Putz demonstrated, live oaks are (mostly) savannah trees that spread horizontally. Except that there's exceptions.... my Jacksonville yard had a pair of very tall, very big-trunked, 50 year old live oaks. Things can grow fast in Florida.

Fla. climate center: 100-119 days>85 F
USDA 1990 hardiness zone 9B
Current USDA hardiness zone 10a
4 km inland from Indian River; 27º N (equivalent to Brisbane)

Central Orlando's urban heat island may be warmer than us

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post-275-060551400 1318093511_thumb.jpg

A big downside to removing the laurel oak would be the need to relocate a thriving bromeliad bed. It's overstuffed at the moment, so when the weather's drier, probably about half the plants will be pulled, old rosettes tossed, pups replanted. It's been a really nice multi-color blanket (mostly neoregelias, which don't have showy flowers) that hasn't needed much maintenance. I use frost cloth and blankets for freezes, but that's all.

Fla. climate center: 100-119 days>85 F
USDA 1990 hardiness zone 9B
Current USDA hardiness zone 10a
4 km inland from Indian River; 27º N (equivalent to Brisbane)

Central Orlando's urban heat island may be warmer than us

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Laurel Oaks are the worst urban tree. They are greedy, invasive, messy, and short lived. Older trees are very dangerous. We lost over 150 here at Leu Gardens after the 3 hurricanes of 2004. GOOD RIDDANCE ! They are good as forest trees in natural areas but not in town.

Eric

Orlando, FL

zone 9b/10a

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Peltophorum dubium is hardy into the mid 20s, low 20s with damage. They are fast growing, drought tolerant, and fairly wind resistant but can get some size. I wouldn't plant one where that oak is now, should give one more room away from the house.

Magnolia (Michelia) chamapa (roange) and x alba are good in the warmer parts of central FL and into south FL but need acidic soil. They tolerate to 29-30F with no real damage. Some around town in cold spots suffered damage the past 2 winters, mostly burnt leaves/twig dieback. They probably saw 27-29F and heavy frost. Colder than that will start to inflict more serious damage.

So good choices;

Quercus geminata- Sand Live Oak, evergreen native, like a dwarf Q. virginiana, 20-25 ft.

Aloysia virgata- Sweet Almond Bush- actually grows as a tree 10-20ft.

Bauhinia forficata- Thorny Orchid Tree

Bougainvillea arborea

Caesalpinia mexicana- Mexican Poinciana

Cassia leptophylla- Gold Medallion Tree

Cordia boissieri- Anacahuita or Wild Olive, very drought tolerant, flowers on and off all year

Ebenopsis ebano- Texas Ebony (Pithecellobium flexicaule)

Elaeocarpus decipiens- Asian Blueberry Tree

Handroanthus chrysotrichus- Golden Trumpet Tree (formerly Tabebuia chrysotricha)

Handroanthus heptaphyllus- Purple Trumpet Tree (formerly Tabebuia heptaphylla)- flowers in fall

Handroanthus impetiginosus- Pink Trumpet Tree (formerly Tabebuia impetiginosa)

Handroanthus umbellatus- Yellow Trumpet Tree (formerly Tabebuia umbellata)

Nageia nagi (formerly Podocarpus)-Nagi or Broadleaf Podocarpus the most wind resistant tree we had through the hurricanes

Neolitsea sericea- Japanese Silver Tree

Taxodium ascendens- Pond Cypress

Eric

Orlando, FL

zone 9b/10a

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I need to post a photo of a huge 'podocarpus' near my house. For a long time, I thought it was a laurel oak, based on trunk and crown--and just driving by. I had to walk to notice the narrow leaves.

I saw one yellow 'tabebuia' flattened by this weekend's winds--the commonly planted species seems very bad for wind.

I gotta look up those others. Ebenopsis ebano looks neat. Pithecellobium dulce, a big fast-growing tree, lined streets where I was a kid in Puerto Rico. One morning, I was going to school and noticed that one had collapsed during the night. I later found out that the tree had briefly been popular in SE Florida, but proved impossible for hurricanes. Of course there's a whole bunch of other species, including Pithecellobium keyensis.

I wonder how Caesalpinia mexicana would grow with ample water and fertilizer. If the "poinciana" is usually kind of starved for water, it might go bonkers in a Florida yard.

Neolitsea sericea lives on Taiwan, which would indicate decent typhoon resistance.

I'm likely to be limited by the need for a fairly large specimen. At least it'll be fairly easy to locate a suitable tree.

Fla. climate center: 100-119 days>85 F
USDA 1990 hardiness zone 9B
Current USDA hardiness zone 10a
4 km inland from Indian River; 27º N (equivalent to Brisbane)

Central Orlando's urban heat island may be warmer than us

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  • 3 months later...

I'm amazed, the City planning office approved my application to remove the laurel oak. So the bromeliad bed around it has to be evacuated, the sidewalk removed, stump-grinding, and a new walkway installed. Because the ground will settle for quite a while, a temporary boardwalk might be a good idea.

At the left, you can see the greener leaves of the next tree over, an even larger laurel oak. Not visible in this photo is the way the boundary between the two tree canopies has been formed by branch-whacking. Both trees have suffered broken branches. When my tree is gone, the neighboring one will expand its canopy, probably not by much, but still enough to limit space for any new tree.

6804247645_c34c7b71d7_b.jpg">

I'm pretty certain there isn't space for a live oak. I'm not totally enthusiastic about large crape myrtles, but that may be the best solution. I can get an American elm grown from local Florida seed. Or go palmy and plant a 6' Latania that I already have (it's scheduled for the back yard).

Here's a look at the bromeliad bed around the tree:

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Fla. climate center: 100-119 days>85 F
USDA 1990 hardiness zone 9B
Current USDA hardiness zone 10a
4 km inland from Indian River; 27º N (equivalent to Brisbane)

Central Orlando's urban heat island may be warmer than us

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BTW, adding to the list, a native nursery in western Lake Worth has American elms from their southern range limit in Martin County (Stuart) and a bunch of Liriodendron tulipifera (tulip tree) from the Orlando area, thriving on moist ground. Bougainvillea arborea looks really neat, Maybe it'll be on sale at tomorrow's Gardenfest sale here in Vero.

Fla. climate center: 100-119 days>85 F
USDA 1990 hardiness zone 9B
Current USDA hardiness zone 10a
4 km inland from Indian River; 27º N (equivalent to Brisbane)

Central Orlando's urban heat island may be warmer than us

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Bromeliads were evacuated to this holding area Monday night--the arborist's crew wanted to show up early.

How did I ever get so many bromeliads??

post-275-002824000 1328676941_thumb.jpg

Fla. climate center: 100-119 days>85 F
USDA 1990 hardiness zone 9B
Current USDA hardiness zone 10a
4 km inland from Indian River; 27º N (equivalent to Brisbane)

Central Orlando's urban heat island may be warmer than us

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  • 2 months later...

Update. I have a photo gallery of the project at Flickr. Building a new walk to the front door was held up by my being sick for a while and by the paver company being really busy. Of course it was expensive.

I still need to decide what tree to plant. I think a live oak will grow tall enough to cope with the nearby laurel oak. Alternatively, I have a source in Lake Worth for American elms grown from seed of wild trees in Martin County (that's just north of Palm Beach County).

The area of laurel oak leftovers will settle over the next couple of years, so I'm moving a bunch of sun-loving bromeliads into the area. Got to decide whether to include a nice Latania palm, or put it in the back yard. I also need places for a baby Archontophoenix maxima (from Leu Gardens) and two baby Livistonas.

Here's the Latania loddigesii:

post-275-051757000 1335730810_thumb.jpg

Fla. climate center: 100-119 days>85 F
USDA 1990 hardiness zone 9B
Current USDA hardiness zone 10a
4 km inland from Indian River; 27º N (equivalent to Brisbane)

Central Orlando's urban heat island may be warmer than us

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Interesting project, Dave.

I hope you'll keep keeping us appraised of your progress. I must admit I'm a bit curious how all of this will turn out 5 or 10 years from now.

-Erik

"Ph'nglui mglw'napalma Funkthulhu R'Lincolnea wgah'palm fhtagn"
"In his house at Lincoln, dread Funkthulhu plants palm trees."

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Trees in Florida grow like corn in Nebraska, at least if they're given water and fertilizer. In five years, the new tree should be looking like something, and the temporary bromeliad/sunflower bed should be transitioning to something more permanent.

Fla. climate center: 100-119 days>85 F
USDA 1990 hardiness zone 9B
Current USDA hardiness zone 10a
4 km inland from Indian River; 27º N (equivalent to Brisbane)

Central Orlando's urban heat island may be warmer than us

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Dave,

Sorry you were sick but glad you are better.

The area is looking really good. Can't wait to see more pictures.

Palmmermaid

Kitty Philips

West Palm Beach, FL

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Thanks. Remaining debris was picked up this morning. I'll be able to start moving plants tomorrow.

I still really miss the big laurel oak, but Eric's comment above is all too accurate about these trees. I think I've got a good landscape nursery between Vero and Sebastian that can provide a live oak.

Fla. climate center: 100-119 days>85 F
USDA 1990 hardiness zone 9B
Current USDA hardiness zone 10a
4 km inland from Indian River; 27º N (equivalent to Brisbane)

Central Orlando's urban heat island may be warmer than us

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  • 2 weeks later...

post-275-096218000 1336672670_thumb.jpg

Free utility marking service was called in just in case the new tree might interfere with something. The yard looks like a Florida vs. Georgia mess (Orange & Gator Blue vs. red) but nothing's anywhere near the tree spot, which is part of the way to the driveway, right of the plant bed, and a big left of the white SUV. The nursery guy will probably bring the tree after a palmy vacation.

Fla. climate center: 100-119 days>85 F
USDA 1990 hardiness zone 9B
Current USDA hardiness zone 10a
4 km inland from Indian River; 27º N (equivalent to Brisbane)

Central Orlando's urban heat island may be warmer than us

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Have you settled on a Live Oak? Will it go in exactly the same spot? I would probably move it out from the house and paved areas a bit.

Woodville, FL

zone 8b

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  • 2 weeks later...

The new live oak should be planted on Tuesday morning. It'll be about equally distant from all the pavement. I think I'll sneak a cute little Australian cycad, Lepidozamia peroffskyana, between it and the house.

Fla. climate center: 100-119 days>85 F
USDA 1990 hardiness zone 9B
Current USDA hardiness zone 10a
4 km inland from Indian River; 27º N (equivalent to Brisbane)

Central Orlando's urban heat island may be warmer than us

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post-275-084279300 1338325612_thumb.jpg

Here's the truck from Seaside Landscapes arriving.

post-275-070868000 1338325625_thumb.jpg

The hole for the new tree was blocked by a big root.

post-275-093936300 1338325639_thumb.jpg

It eventually got removed with some mechanical help.

post-275-052971100 1338325648_thumb.jpg

The root ball was carefully trimmed of circling roots. University of Florida pruning expert Edward Gilman says this is a crucial step. He recommends "shaving" the root ball.

post-275-066987100 1338325657_thumb.jpg

Here's the live oak, installed. As Seaside's owner/installer commented, planting such a big tree is mainly to impress the neighbors. A smaller tree, set out and kept well-watered, is likely to catch up to a larger one (something I've seen happen with Sabal minor)

post-275-054296200 1338325682_thumb.jpg

And a little Latania palm was installed, too.

Fla. climate center: 100-119 days>85 F
USDA 1990 hardiness zone 9B
Current USDA hardiness zone 10a
4 km inland from Indian River; 27º N (equivalent to Brisbane)

Central Orlando's urban heat island may be warmer than us

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Dave,

Looks great! The latania may out distance the oak!

Palmmermaid

Kitty Philips

West Palm Beach, FL

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I forgot to mention that the Latania has been patiently waiting to be planted. It was the door prize at the Central Florida Palm & Cycad Society meeting in December.

Fla. climate center: 100-119 days>85 F
USDA 1990 hardiness zone 9B
Current USDA hardiness zone 10a
4 km inland from Indian River; 27º N (equivalent to Brisbane)

Central Orlando's urban heat island may be warmer than us

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