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Ken Johnson

Copernicia Candy

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Jeff Searle

Jody,

Take a good, close look at the last picture, that you think would be C. rigida. I say certainly not, because look at the length of the petioles already. If their that long already, I rule out rigida for sure. Plus, I've grown many rigidas from seed, and at that small size, the crown of leaves would be more upright and closer together. The leaves in the picture look more open to be a rigida.

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Ken Johnson

Jody,

Take a good, close look at the last picture, that you think would be C. rigida. I say certainly not, because look at the length of the petioles already. If their that long already, I rule out rigida for sure. Plus, I've grown many rigidas from seed, and at that small size, the crown of leaves would be more upright and closer together. The leaves in the picture look more open to be a rigida.

I'm sayin.

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virtualpalm

OK. Good points. So what is it, then?

Jody

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Ken Johnson

Hard to guess that one. I have some here that I will get pix of that are even more weird. Even the supposed rigid I have all look different!

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virtualpalm

Back to the "eye candy" issue that began this topic, here is one for ya...

Jody

post-1566-073493900 1316090488_thumb.jpg

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Mandrew968

I was told that the main difference between Copernicia alba and prunifera is alba has a more rigid leaf, where prunifera tends to droop. I have seen the two growing together and was able to witness this dimorphism. Yes Jody, this is a nice break from trying to split Dypsis a hundred ways! Which is why I am asking this question and sharing my knowledge with all who care.

As we discuss Copernicia, it is becoming more and more apparent that some of us may know a good deal about this genus, but it's not until we all pool our information together, that we get an expert opinion! I have no doubt that the Cuban embargo is largely to blame for the lack of knowledge on Cuban palms(not just Copernicia). Here we are talking about what a rigida is supposed to look like--Isn't there more than one kind of rigida(I have read about a blue badboy rigida)??? All of this is so fascinating to me--thank you all for adding to this thread of candy coated knowledge!! :)

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virtualpalm

I was told that the main difference between Copernicia alba and prunifera is alba has a more rigid leaf, where prunifera tends to droop. I have seen the two growing together and was able to witness this dimorphism.

My understanding is just the opposite -- that C. prunifera has the more rigid leaf that is bluer in color and that C. alba has a more relaxed leaf with a longer petiole that is green/greener in color. Below are two palms growing in our field. The first one I would consider C. prunifera and the second C. alba. The next two photos are of two large C. alba specimens that are growing in a private collection. I am certainly no expert, and I would love to hear other's views on the palms in these photos and these two species in general.

Jody

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virtualpalm

Jody,

Is the palm in post #35 the C. curbeloi? If so, very nice. Mine is not quite that big, but most likely from the one batch of seed that came in and that I sold plants from. Any C. sueroana?

Yes. This plant is in the Keys but will soon be going to its new home. I don't know where the original owner got the seed/plant from; it's possible that he bought it from you years ago.

I have not seen any C. x sueroana, but if I do I'd be happy to post photos.

Jody

Jeff, I had a look around the nursery this morning. We have 25-30 "hybrid"/unidentified copernicias in containers, and one of them looks like it might be C. x sueroana. Your thoughts?

Jody

post-1566-060655800 1316102779_thumb.jpg

post-1566-041200400 1316102809_thumb.jpg

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Mandrew968

Jody, very interesting that I may have it backwards! Does anyone else have some more light to shed????

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rozpalm

Thank to those that have attempted to id the two Copernicia's I posted.

Here is a picture of the one I called C.prunifera from back in 2009 when i got it. What led me to assume that it was not C.hospita was the shape and size of the fronds which are very long, narrow and have a twist on the ends of them. I also have a C.hospita that is the same size and it looks nothing like this palm. So maybe its a C.hospita hybrid?

post-1490-061705000 1316104651_thumb.jpg

Here is a blow up of the picture I posted of the palm I called C.rigida.

post-1490-025008500 1316104664_thumb.jpg

Thanks everyone for your help here.

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oliver

I have both of alba and prunifera at my house and have never really know whether they were correctly labeled or hybidized. Here are some pictures from Montgomery which I visited this spring (Thanks Larry!) Can't get more official than this. First alba and then prunifera

post-891-088457200 1316106160_thumb.jpg

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post-891-086879900 1316106213_thumb.jpg

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Mandrew968

Ron, is the picture playing tricks on me, or is your "rigida" clumping??

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virtualpalm

I have both of alba and prunifera at my house and have never really know whether they were correctly labeled or hybidized. Here are some pictures from Montgomery which I visited this spring (Thanks Larry!) Can't get more official than this. First alba and then prunifera

Thanks for the photos, Oliver. It looks like Andrew was correct and I was wrong (no surprise there!). I don't know why I had them backward in my mind... What makes this more interesting is that C. prunifera is referred to as the Carnauba Wax Palm because of the wax that is collected off of the leaves. Since I was thinking C. prunifera was the blue species, I then assumed that the wax was what gave the palm its silvery color--as in cycads--but now I have to wonder if that assumption was incorrect as well. Alternatively, perhaps there are "blue" and "green" populations of one or both species. Any more info on these two would be greatly welcomed.

Jody

Edited by virtualpalm

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virtualpalm

Andrew, going back to the "orange in the petiole" discussion that we had earlier, I found photos of a couple of the C. baileyana that we have in the field... and they both appear to have little or no orange (see below). Thus, knowing that these palms also came from wild-collected seeds, I am guessing this is not a reliable trait and that it is entirely possible that it is nutritional or environmental in origin. The palms in question -- both the C. baileyana and the C. fallaensis -- are growing in marl with no supplemental irrigation. They are also the same age, BTW, so you can get an idea of the difference in growth rate as well.

Jody

post-1566-071818500 1316109324_thumb.jpg

post-1566-071477200 1316109345_thumb.jpg

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spockvr6

KEN-

With Copernicia in Florida, how does the whole process work.

1) how do folks there even know about them - on a forum like this there are gurus who read books, see them at other members houses, palm meetings - but the general florida public ?

2) is Copernicia a well known palm there like washingtonia are in southern cali ?

3) are there many mature ones that come for sale there?

4) in Florida what palm does the average joe ask you to plant in their expensive new house when they do the first landscaping on a new home.

maybe just a little insight for the folks on the west coast that never see these type of palms for sale in the large sizes you deal with

IMO, the "average" homeowner, even one with a few dollars to spend on their landscape, is not a prospective $10k+ Copernecia owner. To an "average" person, many of these Copernecias look enough like a Bismarckia (that costs a tiny fraction of the price of a nice Copernecia) that such specimen Copernecias will remain a rarity.

Many palms are this way. Heck, for a long time I managed to keep a Prichardia pacifica alive in my yard. But, my neighbor looked at it and thought it was a Washingtonia. Of course, one can understand this as they are not all that far apart in general appearance. So, why would the "average Joe" try and keep such a Prichardia alive in Tarpon Springs when they could plant a Washingtonia and just forget it? No water.....no fertilizer, no upkeep. Just last week I was able to get a half dozen small Roystonea borinquena and was thrilled at the prospect. I will plant them out in Bokeelia. My neighbors will look at them and think they are Royals like the other 100,000,000 of them on the island. But, Ill be all goo goo gaga over them and give them extra special treatment.

It takes a PALM NUT! Happy to be one :-)

Edited by spockvr6

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spockvr6

I have posted this one before for it is a good one.

Dang thats a real beaut Ken!

Looks like it weighs a ton or two.....or 10 :)

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Manolitus

KEN-

With Copernicia in Florida, how does the whole process work.

1) how do folks there even know about them - on a forum like this there are gurus who read books, see them at other members houses, palm meetings - but the general florida public ?

2) is Copernicia a well known palm there like washingtonia are in southern cali ?

3) are there many mature ones that come for sale there?

4) in Florida what palm does the average joe ask you to plant in their expensive new house when they do the first landscaping on a new home.

maybe just a little insight for the folks on the west coast that never see these type of palms for sale in the large sizes you deal with

IMO, the "average" homeowner, even one with a few dollars to spend on their landscape, is not a prospective $10k+ Copernecia owner. To an "average" person, many of these Copernecias look enough like a Bismarckia (that costs a tiny fraction of the price of a nice Copernecia) that such specimen Copernecias will remain a rarity.

Many palms are this way. Heck, for a long time I managed to keep a Prichardia pacifica alive in my yard. But, my neighbor looked at it and thought it was a Washingtonia. Of course, one can understand this as they are not all that far apart in general appearance. So, why would the "average Joe" try and keep such a Prichardia alive in Tarpon Springs when they could plant a Washingtonia and just forget it? No water.....no fertilizer, no upkeep. Just last week I was able to get a half dozen small Roystonea borinquena and was thrilled at the prospect. I will plant them out in Bokeelia. My neighbors will look at them and think they are Royals like the other 100,000,000 of them on the island. But, Ill be all goo goo gaga over them and give them extra special treatment.

It takes a PALM NUT! Happy to be one :-)

When Jeff Cramer, a local collector and friend, tells me that all Pritchardias look alive, I cringe. angry.gif There are palm nuts and then there are palm nuts mrlooney.gif

Manny

PS Is anybody working this week ? This thread is sure taking up a lot of free time rolleyes.gif

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Mandrew968

I have both of alba and prunifera at my house and have never really know whether they were correctly labeled or hybidized. Here are some pictures from Montgomery which I visited this spring (Thanks Larry!) Can't get more official than this. First alba and then prunifera

Thanks for the photos, Oliver. It looks like Andrew was correct and I was wrong (no surprise there!). I don't know why I had them backward in my mind... What makes this more interesting is that C. prunifera is referred to as the Carnauba Wax Palm because of the wax that is collected off of the leaves. Since I was thinking C. prunifera was the blue species, I then assumed that the wax was what gave the palm its silvery color--as in cycads--but now I have to wonder if that assumption was incorrect as well. Alternatively, perhaps there are "blue" and "green" populations of one or both species. Any more info on these two would be greatly welcomed.

Jody

Jody, there are both green and silver examples of Copernicia alba(Caranday wax palm). Both the Carnuba and Caranday wax palm are endemic to South America(I believe the only ones in the genus, not from the Carribean) and are still harvested(the leaves) for the special quality it has--the wax is heat resistant, up to a certain temp.

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Mandrew968

KEN-

With Copernicia in Florida, how does the whole process work.

1) how do folks there even know about them - on a forum like this there are gurus who read books, see them at other members houses, palm meetings - but the general florida public ?

2) is Copernicia a well known palm there like washingtonia are in southern cali ?

3) are there many mature ones that come for sale there?

4) in Florida what palm does the average joe ask you to plant in their expensive new house when they do the first landscaping on a new home.

maybe just a little insight for the folks on the west coast that never see these type of palms for sale in the large sizes you deal with

IMO, the "average" homeowner, even one with a few dollars to spend on their landscape, is not a prospective $10k+ Copernecia owner. To an "average" person, many of these Copernecias look enough like a Bismarckia (that costs a tiny fraction of the price of a nice Copernecia) that such specimen Copernecias will remain a rarity.

Many palms are this way. Heck, for a long time I managed to keep a Prichardia pacifica alive in my yard. But, my neighbor looked at it and thought it was a Washingtonia. Of course, one can understand this as they are not all that far apart in general appearance. So, why would the "average Joe" try and keep such a Prichardia alive in Tarpon Springs when they could plant a Washingtonia and just forget it? No water.....no fertilizer, no upkeep. Just last week I was able to get a half dozen small Roystonea borinquena and was thrilled at the prospect. I will plant them out in Bokeelia. My neighbors will look at them and think they are Royals like the other 100,000,000 of them on the island. But, Ill be all goo goo gaga over them and give them extra special treatment.

It takes a PALM NUT! Happy to be one :-)

I totally understand your point. I have too many people tell me, "Andrew, a palm is a palm". My neighbor doesn't understand what the fuss is about over a Copernicia macroglossa; "Andrew, I hate all that dead stuff--it's the same palm I see all over the metro-rail, right?(refering to washingtonias with their skirts)" ya know, I try to explain to these people about leaf structure and petioles, but it's often futile. To me, it's like saying, "why get a Ferrari--the 97' firebird looks just like the Maranello..." :hmm:

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Ken Johnson

Andrew, going back to the "orange in the petiole" discussion that we had earlier, I found photos of a couple of the C. baileyana that we have in the field... and they both appear to have little or no orange (see below). Thus, knowing that these palms also came from wild-collected seeds, I am guessing this is not a reliable trait and that it is entirely possible that it is nutritional or environmental in origin. The palms in question -- both the C. baileyana and the C. fallaensis -- are growing in marl with no supplemental irrigation. They are also the same age, BTW, so you can get an idea of the difference in growth rate as well.

Jody

Those are real nice Jody. Do hybrids like that sell for the same price as a baily? Do your coustomers want such things? Without DNA will we ever realy know what they are? If you knew the mother it would help but even that is often not the case as these palms can be 10 years old and still in a pot haveing been through several owners before we buy them and grow them for ten more years to get them to THAT size!

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Manolitus

Gang,

Here are a couple of pictures of a C. Yarey. Now, this palm had been in a pot for 12 years before i bought it from very reputable nurserymen ( It got knocked down by one of the 04 hurricanes, but it has survived nicely ) These guys are not "palm experts" but are real pros and recognized in the industry for their very neat stuff. Just so you know, its Ernesto's Good Earth. Anyway, based on all the back and forth, they could have been wrong. So what do the thread experts say ?

Yarey ? Jeff Searle ?? Mandrew ? Jody ?? KEN ???

And some more Borhidiana Candy

post-1905-006517700 1316126393_thumb.jpg

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Manolitus

OOOPS.

This time with Pictures. I hate it when I mess up my posts !!angry.gif

post-1905-002888400 1316126541_thumb.jpg

Ken ?? Jody ?? Andrew ??? Jeff Searle ??

Yarey ????

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Manolitus

post-1905-094141200 1316126945_thumb.jpg

Jeez finally. Sorry all.

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Ken Johnson

Here comes a barrage of large photos I just took. I will name and describe them the best I can as I go. Sorry dial up people.

The first one is a Chevy.

Second looks like first when young.

Third is a Copernicia.

Next is a silver colored one that would not hold still.

Then one that I dont know the name of.

The pretty green one is a pretty green one.

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Ken Johnson

This one is a rigida.

I know it is hard to tell but it insists on wearing camo.

It is old as the hills but I keep feeding it and watering it and it grows inch by inch...for 8 years in THAT spot.

post-50-003719600 1316130411_thumb.jpg

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Ken Johnson

This one wants to be art.

post-50-095652000 1316130526_thumb.jpg

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Ken Johnson

Rigida just want to hide when young. This one is 10 years old at least.

post-50-059762200 1316130684_thumb.jpg

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virtualpalm

Do hybrids like that sell for the same price as a baily? Do your coustomers want such things? Without DNA will we ever realy know what they are? If you knew the mother it would help but even that is often not the case as these palms can be 10 years old and still in a pot haveing been through several owners before we buy them and grow them for ten more years to get them to THAT size!

We have had them for at least a couple years and haven't sold any yet. For sure the hybrids do not sell as well as the pure species... although I have a photo of a nice hybrid that we recently sold that I will post tomorrow.

Jody

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virtualpalm

I hate it when I mess up my posts

Manny, if you catch the error soon enough (as you did), you can click "Edit" at the bottom right of the original post and fix it.

That could be C. yarey, but again I am no expert.

Jody

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virtualpalm

Here comes a barrage of large photos I just took.

Nice ones, Ken. I took a tour through our field this afternoon as well, so I will have several more photos to add in the morning.

Jody

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Ken Johnson

Here is one that projects lazer beams from its leaves!

post-50-083141700 1316138306_thumb.jpg

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sarasota alex

C. prunifera on the left and a group of C. alba on the right at the Gizella Kopsick Palm Arboretum in St. Pete.

post-3501-006887600 1316141885_thumb.jpg

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Al in Kona

When I got this palm as a tiny strap-leaf seedling I was told that it was a Copernicia fallaensis. Now that it has grown to this size would you agree?

post-90-056660600 1316162784_thumb.jpg

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Manolitus

When I got this palm as a tiny strap-leaf seedling I was told that it was a Copernicia fallaensis. Now that it has grown to this size would you agree?

This looks like a Pritchardia/Copernicia hybrid laugh.gif !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Manny

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Mandrew968

When I got this palm as a tiny strap-leaf seedling I was told that it was a Copernicia fallaensis. Now that it has grown to this size would you agree?

This looks like a Pritchardia/Copernicia hybrid laugh.gif !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Manny

Manny, I was thinking the exact same thing! You can tell she has been living with her Pritchardian cousins :) Al, it certainly looks like you have the real deal there. Do you have any other Copernicias? If so, I bet this is one of the faster ones. Everything looks kosher--congrats :)

BTW Al, who trims(hacked) that palm? I would have to take their saw away from them; that's not just any palm, and not just anyone should touch it...

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Ken Johnson

All 3 are out of the ground!

post-50-044432200 1316174065_thumb.jpg

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virtualpalm

Good morning Copernicia fans! The first entry for Copernicia "show-and-tell" illustrates the classic "diamond" shape of C. fallaensis leaves.

Jody

post-1566-011612800 1316176038_thumb.jpg

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virtualpalm

Next up we have a comparison series with C. fallaensis on the left and C. baileyana on the right. The first comparison is the hastula area of the leaf viewed from the bottom (abaxially). From my observations in the field yesterday, all of the C. fallaensis had a much more protracted (pointed) hastula, whereas that of C. baileyana was less pointed and occasionally somewhat rounded, especially in younger plants. Also of note was that the leaf segments closest to the petiole extend below (abaxially) the linear plane of the petiole and wrap more completely in C. fallaensis, whereas those same segments in C. baileyana did not wrap past the petiole and did not extend beyond (or lower than) the linear plane of the petiole. All of these traits were consistent within a species and differed between the two species.

Jody

post-1566-010020000 1316176589_thumb.jpg

post-1566-037363700 1316176616_thumb.jpg

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virtualpalm

The hastulas as viewed from the top (adaxially) were also somewhat dissimilar, with C. fallaensis having a somewhat flattened hastula and C. baileyana being more pointed (which is the exact opposite of the previous post of the hastulas as viewed from below). You can also clearly see how the leaf segments closest to the petiole differ in their extent of overlap with the petiole. (It should be noted that the C. fallaensis leaf was an older leaf that had begun to senesce [i.e., the chlorosis/necrosis is not nutritional]; it is very difficult to photograph the adaxial surface of the leaves in the plants of this species that we have in the field due to their shear size.)

Jody

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Edited by virtualpalm

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virtualpalm

In these two photos, it seems clear that C. fallaensis petioles are relatively flat in cross-section, whereas those of C. baileyana are more hemispherical. I don't know if this is a function of the relative sizes of the plants or if this trait might change with age.

I also wanted to show the coloration of the C. baileyana petioles in particular for Andrew; this was really the only plant that had any significant orange color of the couple dozen that we have in the field.

Then there is the awesome massiveness (or massive awesomeness) of C. fallaensis that is never seen in C. baileyana!

Jody

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