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Ken Johnson

Copernicia Candy

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peachy

Like it ? NO. Love it ? Yes. Mr J I am eating my heart out.

Peachy

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Rafael

Is this the official name?

Thats wonderfull!

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virtualpalm

Hey, Ken... nice one!

However, I'll see that baby C. fallaensis and raise ya a 'big daddy' Bailey!

Sorry, y'all... this one is sold already.

Jody

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Walter John

You like it?

It appears to be fitted with a very clever form of flotation device. What a shame you aren't on the western seaboard Ken, then you could push it out to sea with a sign "Peachy or Bust" for example. :D

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trioderob

You like it?

DUDE - you are killing me.

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Mandrew968

Jody, no matter how big a baileyana gets, it will never have those silvery diamond shaped leaves. For that reason, the fallaensis wins(not to mention it's faster than a bailey). Nice @ss Bailey, tho!!

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virtualpalm

Good point, Andrew. Here's a couple for ya, then.

Jody

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Edited by virtualpalm
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LJG

Jody, no matter how big a baileyana gets, it will never have those silvery diamond shaped leaves. For that reason, the fallaensis wins(not to mention it's faster than a bailey). Nice @ss Bailey, tho!!

I read about the diamond shape in a book too. What does this really mean? Can you show the two together and explain? I still don't see the difference even when looking at both.

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Ken Johnson

Jody, no matter how big a baileyana gets, it will never have those silvery diamond shaped leaves. For that reason, the fallaensis wins(not to mention it's faster than a bailey). Nice @ss Bailey, tho!!

I read about the diamond shape in a book too. What does this really mean? Can you show the two together and explain? I still don't see the difference even when looking at both.

Len I don't know myself if there is a difference, there is a trick the eye plays that makes it look diamond shape maybe but upon close inspection of my example you will see the leaf is NOT diamond shape. I see it like you do. In fact I am not sure that Jody's big palm is not the same as my little one. As far as species names in Copernicia goes around here it is hard to know exactly what you have. Even in Cuba it is hard to say except in stands of palms where everyone seems to be exactly the same. If you can get seed from such a "pure" stand it will likely come up like its mother but if you get seed from a Florida palm it may have a father that is not the same. Also if you get seed from a person in Cuba "in the mail" it may be who knows what because you are already dealing in a black market commodity. Where is LHB when you need him? lol

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virtualpalm

Ken, I don't know if you have seen the large C. fallaensis at TREC in Homestead, but those palms have the characteristic diamond-shaped leaves. I have one poor photo (below) of one of them, but you can't really make out the leaf shape. It would be my guess that they acquire this trait as they age. There can be no question, however, when you see palms of the same age growing side-by-side under identical conditions which are C. fallaensis and which are C. baileyana... the former are nearly twice as massive as the latter, and, as Andrew said, faster growing.

Jody

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Edited by virtualpalm
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Ken Johnson

Ken, I don't know if you have seen the large C. fallaensis at TREC in Homestead, but those palms have the characteristic diamond-shaped leaves. I have one poor photo (below) of one of them, but you can't really make out the leaf shape. It would be my guess that they acquire this trait as they age. There can be no question, however, when you see palms of the same age growing side-by-side under identical conditions which are C. fallaensis and which are C. baileyana... the former are nearly twice as massive as the latter, and, as Andrew said, faster growing.

Jody

Are you sure? How do you know the standard? Who's the daddy? Where's Murray when you need him?

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virtualpalm

I am no expert, but when you see them side-by-side there is no question. The seeds that I am speaking of came from a trusted source originally collected in habitat, so I am confident of their nomenclatural accuracy. And the palms at TREC originally came from Fairchild, and those seeds were collected in habitat as well.

Jody

Edited by virtualpalm

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Manolitus

I am no expert, but when you see them side-by-side there is no question. The seeds that I am speaking of came from a trusted source originally collected in habitat, so I am confident of their nomenclatural accuracy. And the palms at TREC originally came from Fairchild, and those seeds were collected in habitat as well.

Jody

What about Gigas ? Can't you kinda throw that one into the mix as well ? Or would one say that Gigas is more distinctive than Fallaensis or Baileyana ????

Manny

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virtualpalm

As I said, Manny, I am certainly no expert. I would be hard-pressed to list all of the characteristic differences between C. gigas and C. baileyana, for example. I have just not seen enough of the former to conceptualize my "search image." I do have a photo of a nice C. gigas specimen that we recently acquired, though. (Sorry for temporarily hijacking your topic, Ken!)

Jody

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Mandrew968

Manny, yes, you can tell the difference between gigas, baileyana and fallaensis fairly easily(even when small). What Ken is saying and what the problem most people have with an identification is most cuban palms hybridize readily. If someone were to hold a gun to my head, I would say the fallaensis in Ken's original photo is not even a pure fallaensis; if you look closely, you can see the hint of orange on the edge of the petioles. Gigas has none of this orange and it is very pronounced in baileyana. As far as leaf shape goes, baileyana and gigas are fairly uniform, save the gigas petiole appears to be stretched, in comparison. Fallaensis leaves are circular as babies, but when they start to trunk, then the leaf becomes much more of a diamond shape(this means it's more pointy, Len). I have not yet seen these wonderful palms in their habitat, but I have seen adults and the difference is easily discernable. Fallaensis has very little orange in the petiole if any, when the seed is pure; the fact that ken's beautiful palm has the fallaensis shaped leaf, means $$$$$$ :)

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LJG

Manny, yes, you can tell the difference between gigas, baileyana and fallaensis fairly easily(even when small).

Great. Can you tell me what this is?

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Mandrew968

Manny, yes, you can tell the difference between gigas, baileyana and fallaensis fairly easily(even when small).

Great. Can you tell me what this is?

Len, the orange at the base is all good. Look at the petioles--no orange at all. However, the leaf on this palm has a ruffle that the pure gigas I have seen, do not exibit. Glabrescens and berteroana do though. The leaf does not look flat enough for a pure Copernicia gigas. The crown also seems to be boosting; a good friend and expert taught me that Cuban Copernicias usually don't boost like, lets say, an alba often does.

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LJG

I know what I bought it as and it came from a very knowedgable group of guys. I just would like to get confirmation. Any guess?

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Mandrew968

Very knowledgeable guys can have hybridized seed. It doesn't come down to how knowledgeable you are(or if you can spell knowledgeable), Len why am I trying to describe how the birds and the bees make trees--you know how it works :)

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virtualpalm

Fallaensis has very little orange in the petiole if any, when the seed is pure

Andrew, things like color in the petiole are rarely diagnostic. Our C. faellensis in the field have quite a bit of orange in the petiole, and they are from habitat-collected seed. You are welcome to come down and see them.

Jody

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Ken Johnson

Jody, That last one does not look like what I call gigas. BTW no problem on the hijack, Copernicia candy is something we all like so the more the merrier.

Len, While that is a way cool looking Copernicia I have no idea of the species. One thing that pops into my mind is that it looks different because it's grown in California. Very stout looking thing though. I would bet it is Cuban in origin. if I had to guessI would say gigas.

Andrew, I have heard of the triangle shape idea but now understand what you are saying, the leaf gets a more acute tip to it formed by the leaflets reaching out a bit further. In Jody's picture at TREC you can see them sticking out in the background palms.

The guy I bought this palm from has 3 like this, Jody has seen them, and all three are different looking even though he bought all three with the same species name. This just goes to show how hard it can be to ID Copernicia.

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LJG

Very knowledgeable guys can have hybridized seed. It doesn't come down to how knowledgeable you are(or if you can spell knowledgeable), Len why am I trying to describe how the birds and the bees make trees--you know how it works :)

I just read from you that you can tell fairly easily. Guess it is not so easy? :)

Thanks Ken. I remember you taking about this when you were out here last. This plant is suppose to be Fallaensis. Seed was taken from a known Fallaensis in Cuba by Mike Harris and grown by Paul Craft at Design Source. I know nothing about IDing Cuban plants, but I would assume Fallaensis or crossed Fallaensis is still best guess. Sorry for hijacking your thread :).

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Ken Johnson

Very knowledgeable guys can have hybridized seed. It doesn't come down to how knowledgeable you are(or if you can spell knowledgeable), Len why am I trying to describe how the birds and the bees make trees--you know how it works :)

I just read from you that you can tell fairly easily. Guess it is not so easy? :)

Thanks Ken. I remember you taking about this when you were out here last. This plant is suppose to be Fallaensis. Seed was taken from a known Fallaensis in Cuba by Mike Harris and grown by Paul Craft at Design Source. I know nothing about IDing Cuban plants, but I would assume Fallaensis or crossed Fallaensis is still best guess. Sorry for hijacking your thread :).

Wow, a surprise. Does that palm look like Fallaensis to you after seeing Jody's pic from TREC? Not to me. Like I said about Cuban seed, it is a crap shoot somehow. I have no doubt that MH went to Cuba but from there who knows what happened. I think FTBG got their seed through diplomatic pouches, otherwise they would be complicit in breaking an embargo and dealing in black market products, not a reputation FTBG would want. The leaf basses on your palm look unlike gigas and the leaf looks unlike fallaensis so its stumping me.

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Cindy Adair

I just thought you might enjoy a laugh by looking at the size C. fallaensis that I planted! This one has actually been subjected to palm torture by planting as a one leafer in shade in the dry season and left to fend for itself. It was a Christmas gift for my husband and one of the first tropical palms we planted. Then in a few months I moved it into sun and abandoned it again. The weeds/vines promptly engulfed it and I forgot where I planted it. Even the PVC pipe marker with orange tape was covered with vegetation. I don't really remember how long it was buried, but we rediscovered it in Nov. last year. Amazingly it's STILL growing. One day I hope it can look down and laugh at the 4 foot tall weeds or at least survive until we move in 4 years to better care for it.

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Ken Johnson

I just thought you might enjoy a laugh by looking at the size C. fallaensis that I planted! This one has actually been subjected to palm torture by planting as a one leafer in shade in the dry season and left to fend for itself. It was a Christmas gift for my husband and one of the first tropical palms we planted. Then in a few months I moved it into sun and abandoned it again. The weeds/vines promptly engulfed it and I forgot where I planted it. Even the PVC pipe marker with orange tape was covered with vegetation. I don't really remember how long it was buried, but we rediscovered it in Nov. last year. Amazingly it's STILL growing. One day I hope it can look down and laugh at the 4 foot tall weeds or at least survive until we move in 4 years to better care for it.

There is NO stopping that palm now. You have a winner!

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Mandrew968

Very knowledgeable guys can have hybridized seed. It doesn't come down to how knowledgeable you are(or if you can spell knowledgeable), Len why am I trying to describe how the birds and the bees make trees--you know how it works :)

I just read from you that you can tell fairly easily. Guess it is not so easy? :)

Thanks Ken. I remember you taking about this when you were out here last. This plant is suppose to be Fallaensis. Seed was taken from a known Fallaensis in Cuba by Mike Harris and grown by Paul Craft at Design Source. I know nothing about IDing Cuban plants, but I would assume Fallaensis or crossed Fallaensis is still best guess. Sorry for hijacking your thread :).

I can tell that's not like any fallaensis I have ever seen! It's nothing like my two and it looks nothing like any of Jody's, any of Ken's, nor does it look anything like Fairchild's four. Maybe ken is onto something with the different weather and the different soil conditions you have, Len, but I would say you have a hybrid IMO. Granted a species is pure(which is not very common in cultivation),it is fairly easy to identify the three species in question.

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Ken Johnson

Manny, yes, you can tell the difference between gigas, baileyana and fallaensis fairly easily(even when small).

Great. Can you tell me what this is?

I keep lookin at this picture because that is the wildest looking thing I have seen in a long time. Way cool in my book! B)

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LJG

Very knowledgeable guys can have hybridized seed. It doesn't come down to how knowledgeable you are(or if you can spell knowledgeable), Len why am I trying to describe how the birds and the bees make trees--you know how it works :)

I just read from you that you can tell fairly easily. Guess it is not so easy? :)

Thanks Ken. I remember you taking about this when you were out here last. This plant is suppose to be Fallaensis. Seed was taken from a known Fallaensis in Cuba by Mike Harris and grown by Paul Craft at Design Source. I know nothing about IDing Cuban plants, but I would assume Fallaensis or crossed Fallaensis is still best guess. Sorry for hijacking your thread :).

I can tell that's not like any fallaensis I have ever seen! It's nothing like my two and it looks nothing like any of Jody's, any of Ken's, nor does it look anything like Fairchild's four. Maybe ken is onto something with the different weather and the different soil conditions you have, Len, but I would say you have a hybrid IMO. Granted a species is pure(which is not very common in cultivation),it is fairly easy to identify the three species in question.

Thanks. It certainly could be a hybrid. Either way I am happy with it. It has been in the ground now 5 growing seasons. So it is all California leaves now .

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LJG

Manny, yes, you can tell the difference between gigas, baileyana and fallaensis fairly easily(even when small).

Great. Can you tell me what this is?

I keep lookin at this picture because that is the wildest looking thing I have seen in a long time. Way cool in my book! B)

Coming from you that says a lot. :)

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Peter

Apologies for jumping on the bandwagon, but who can ID this Copernicia growing in my Southern California garden? Not sure of it's exact origin but it did come as fallaense from Florida. By the way, in two winters here it has never had the slightest problem, and sends up about 3 leaves a year which is not slow for me. Thanks for any help!

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Oh, and jeez Len that palm has grown!!

Edited by Peter
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virtualpalm

Len & Peter,

Not having seen many (any, actually!) copernicias growing in California, it is difficult for this Florida boy to conceptualize how they "should" grow on your coast. Having seen many cycad species growing on both coasts, however, I know there can be pronounced differences in morphology resulting from vastly different environmental conditions. Considering this, I don't see any reason to believe that both of your palms are not C. fallaensis -- especially yours, Len, knowing the source. I would love to see more photos as they get larger.

Jody

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virtualpalm

I think FTBG got their seed through diplomatic pouches, otherwise they would be complicit in breaking an embargo and dealing in black market products, not a reputation FTBG would want.

Ken, botanical gardens are often given special permission/permits to legally visit countries like Cuba to legally collect seeds, herbarium specimens, data, etc., for the purposes of research and conservation. Botanical gardens like Fairchild can also become federally certified as rescue centers for certain threatened or endangered species or plant groups in which they specialize, allowing them to receive confiscated seeds or plants of those specific species or groups that come into the country illegally or without the proper permits (the alternative would be to destroy the confiscated material). I can't remember specifically how Fairchild acquired their C. fallaensis seeds, but I have no doubt that were obtained legally. As for the palm collection at TREC--which is quite good--it was developed, in part, as an offsite germplasm repository for Fairchild after Hurricane Andrew in an effort to have a backup collection of some of the world's rarest palm species in case Fairchild is hit directly by a hurricane (or vice versa).

Jody

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Mandrew968

Len, your Copernicia does a lot to dispell any myths that they can't grow well in California. Ken's right, the palm is very robust. How tall is this palm and how tall was it when you planted it 5 years ago?

Does anyone else see a little berteroana in the wavy leaf of Len's palm? I have never seen a leaf that wasn't flat on a gigas, fallaensis, or baileyana. The enigma, to me, is that berteroana is from Hispanola... but maybe it's a california adaptation? Does anyone else see that crown bulging? I have seen ekmanii, alba, prunifera, and berteroana do this--none from Cuba...

Thanks for posting, everyone--what a great thread! Jody, I would love to come by some time soon to see some of your gems! I didn't read anything on the petiole color, but I have seen a correlation(doesn't prove causation) from the species in question.

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virtualpalm

Here is some more Copernicia "candy" for your enjoyment. Anyone care to guess the species?

Jody

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virtualpalm

Jody, That last one does not look like what I call gigas.

It was identified by one of the world's foremost authorities on Copernicia and other Caribbean palms, so I am pretty confident on the ID.

This just goes to show how hard it can be to ID Copernicia.

Agreed!

Jody

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LJG

Len & Peter,

Not having seen many (any, actually!) copernicias growing in California, it is difficult for this Florida boy to conceptualize how they "should" grow on your coast. Having seen many cycad species growing on both coasts, however, I know there can be pronounced differences in morphology resulting from vastly different environmental conditions. Considering this, I don't see any reason to believe that both of your palms are not C. fallaensis -- especially yours, Len, knowing the source. I would love to see more photos as they get larger.

Jody

This is very true. You should see what my C prunifera looks like. Small leaves and very compact.

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LJG

Len, your Copernicia does a lot to dispell any myths that they can't grow well in California. Ken's right, the palm is very robust. How tall is this palm and how tall was it when you planted it 5 years ago?

Thanks. If memory serves it was in a 25. I have a picture of it still in the pot. It has doubled in size in 5 years and the newest leaves are now overhead. I amended the soil with offed cement and also put a bubbler in so it gets tons water. It has really responded.

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oliver

Ken, sorry for being another thread hijacker, but since we have a few Copernicia experts here, I have a couple of questions with regards to 2 plants I got from a well known grower in Hawaii. I got 2 plants which he was told the seeds were C. rigida. Both were of 5g size and both were planted about 2 years ago. The first one is clearly not rigida (?alba variant), however the second one may be a rigida. If it is, I would like to move it with my current change in social status. Firstly, do you think that the second plant is a rigida. If so, would it survive digging if I left a margin 6" bigger than the original 5g hole. I do want to move it as quickly as possible. Thanks!

Oliver

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Ken Johnson

The second one does not look like rigida to me. I will start to root prune one I have now so when your status is secure I can get it to you. LOL

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