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MattyB

Beccariophoenix Breakdown

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MattyB

Chicka Chicka Breakdown! :mrlooney:

We periodically have Beccariophoenix threads where people often ask for clarification regarding the three different species. I'm lucky to have all three growing in my garden so I thought I'd take some pics and share what I've learned. This isn't from the books, so I may not have all the correct terms or descriptions. This is just my observations.

Here's all three from closest to farthest:

B. alfredii

B. madagascarensis (formerly known as 'no windows')

B. sp. 'windows' (does this thing have a real name yet?)

They are all growing in full, all day, 9 miles inland SoCal sun. Soil is rocky. Watering is done by hose, approximately 5-10 gallons each, once a week.

This pic was taken at 7:45am, just as they start to see sun, and they will be in full, unobstructed sun, on this west facing slope, until sunset over the horizon; this time of year is well after 7pm.

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Stevetoad

soooo what have you learned? :interesting:

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MattyB

Beccariophoenix sp. 'windows'

This has been in the ground approximately 3 years from a 5 gallon pot. It's base is no more than 3" in diameter and it stands about 3' tall. This is the first year that the new leaves are coming out sun acclimated. This is the least sun tolerant Beccariophoenix, at least when young, here in the low humidity of SoCal. My infrequent watering schedule and some earlier battles with gophers probably don't help with sun acclimation either. It also seems to suffer from yellowing due to lack of nutrients, especially in Winter. I've gotta stay on top of fertilizing with this one but once I do throw down some fertilizer it helps noticeably. No cold damage, or even minor spotting, whatsoever at several nights in the upper 30's. All brown tips and general crispiness is due to lack of water and sun. Hopefully I can get this thing looking good once I get the drip irrigation down here.

Identifying this palm is very easy due to the distinct 'windows' in the leaves. I love how the compact sun grown leaf almost looks like a fan palm.

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MattyB

Beccariophoenix madagascariensis

This has been in the ground approximately 3 years from a 30 gallon pot. This is the largest palm I've ever planted. I usually have trouble digging a 5 gallon hole but somehow I managed to excavate a very large hole in this spot, which was comprised of mostly large, basketball sized boulders that I could pry out. Bill Sanford helped me slide this thing down my hill on a sheet of cardboard. Paul and I planted it, and Paul has the scar on his head to prove it. :unsure: The palm was mad at Paul and pile drove his head into a sharp jagged rock. "Stupid palm! (squirt squirt blood blood)" It's base is about 6" in diameter and it stands about 7' tall. This palm originated from a grower in Florida and all the Florida grown leaves brown tipped. All the new, California grown leaves, approximately 5 of them, are sun acclimated and have minimal to no brown tipping. No cold damage, or even minor spotting, whatsoever at several nights in the upper 30's.

Identifying this palm when young is the same as when it's older: upright, shuttle cock appearance in habit. They have a small heel as well if I remember correctly. When young this is the slowest Beccariophoenix. Also, the leaves are held in more of a 'V' than the other, flatter leaved Beccariophoenix. Notice the terminal leaflets, like a lot of other palms, are smaller in length than the other leaflets. This is especially important when comparing to B. alfredii which as very long terminal leaflets.

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Tassie_Troy1971

lookin good !

Wont be long before the Alfredii will start looking like a cocos ! :D

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MattyB

Beccariophoenix alfredii

This has been in the ground approximately 3 years from a 3 gallon pot. It's base is about 2" in diameter and it stands about 4' tall. This palm came from Ortanique originally, sold as 1 leaf seedlings. Unfortunately I learned the hard way that they require a very open, well draining mix when young, because I rotted all of mine out. Luckily Matt Patricelli had my back and hooked me up with another one...or two maybe I killed some more. :blink: Once past the seedling stage, which happens very quickly as this is the fastest Beccariophoenix for us here, it can root out a pot in no time and demands to be planted out. No cold damage, or even minor spotting, whatsoever at several nights in the upper 30's.

When young this palm looks similar to B. madagascariensis but it's not as upright. Also, unlike B. madagascariensis it does form 'windows' in the leaves, but not anywhere near as pronounced as B. sp. 'windows'. The leaves are very flat and wide. Notice the terminal leaflets; they are almost the same size as all the other leaflets, leaving an open space at the end of the frond. B. alfredii is unique in the lower petiole color, which has a speckled purpley/brown color, similar to what I've seen on Livistona decora and Queen palms; sort of like a ripening passion fruit shell.

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quaman58

Great pictures Matt! All 3 look really good; the new leaves on the "windows" look perfect. I was wondering where you got such a large madagascariensis from; thought maybe Phil had a secret stash..

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MattyB

Can you imagine how long that would take to grow here in CA? It was a trade with a friend.

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Stevetoad

Great info matt. i just planted a tall one gallon alfredii out. ive been drowning it 3 times a week as i was told they LOOOOOVVEEEE water. i hope mine doesnt rot. looking good...

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Kim

Destined to become a classic reference thread...

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DoomsDave

THESE ARE THE BREAKS . . . .

Clap your hands everybody

If you got what it takes

'Cause I'm Kurtis Blow and I want you to know

That these are the breaks

Breaks on a bus brakes on a car

Breaks to make you a superstar

Breaks to win and breaks to lose

But these here breaks will rock your shoes

And these are the breaks

Break it up, break it up, break it up!

If your woman steps out with another man

(That's the breaks, that's the breaks)

And she runs off with him to Japan

And the IRS says they want to chat

And you can't explain why you claimed your cat

And Ma Bell sends you a whopping bill

With eighteen phone calls to Brazil

And you borrowed money from the mob

And yesterday you lost your job

Well, these are the breaks

Break it up, break it up, break it up

Throw your hands up in the sky

And wave 'em 'round from side to side

And if you deserve a break tonight

Somebody say alright! (All right)

Say ho-oo! (Ho-oo!)

And you don't stop

Keep on, somebody scream!( Owwwww!)

Break down!

Breaks on a stage, breaks on a screen

Breaks to make your wallet lean

Breaks run cold and breaks run hot

Some folks got 'em and some have not

But these are the breaks

Break it up, break it up, break it up!

Break down!

To the girl in brown, stop messing around

(Break it up, break it up)

To the guy in blue, whatcha gonna do?

(Break it up, break it up)

To the girl in green, don't be so mean

(Break it up, break it up)

And the guy in red, say what I said

(Break it up, break it up)

Break down!

Brakes on a plane, brakes on a train

Breaks to make you go insane

Breaks in love, breaks in war

But we got the breaks to get you on the floor

And these are the breaks

Break it up, break it up, break it up!

Break down! Yo!

Just do it, just do it, just do it, do it, do it!

Just do it, just do it, just do it, do it, do it!

Just do it, just do it, just do it, do it, do it!

Just do it, just do it, just do it, do it, do it!

You say last week you met the perfect guy

(That's the breaks, that's the breaks)

And he promised you the stars in the sky

(That's the breaks, that's the breaks)

He said his Cadilac was gold

(That's the breaks, that's the breaks)

But he didn't say it was ten years old

(That's the breaks, that's the breaks)

He took you out to the Red Coach grill

(That's the breaks, that's the breaks)

But he forgot the cash and you paid the bill

(That's the breaks, that's the breaks)

And he told you the story of his life

(That's the breaks, that's the breaks)

But he forgot the part about...his wife!

(That's the breaks, Huh! Huh! that's the breaks)

Well, these are the breaks!

Break it up, break it up, break it up!

Break down!

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Mandrew968

I believe alfredii is the hardiest and is not as needy of extra nutrients as the other two. It can also take periodic inundation, during summer.

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quaman58

Destined to become a classic reference thread...

Matt, I concur. Can you do an A-Z breakdown on Dypsis as well this weekend?

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Adam from Oz

Destined to become a classic reference thread...

Matt, I concur. Can you do an A-Z breakdown on Dypsis as well this weekend?

And my Tax return is due...... :mrlooney:

Excellent, MB! I have some alfredii coming and now know exactly where to put them and am really going to lighten up the soil.

More!

Cheers,

Adam

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peachy

Okay I have one in the ground that looks nothing like any of the above. When it stops raining I will get a photo to post and see what all the clever people have to say about it. btw Adam, it was planted straight into the ground in an non amended area with none of my usual little time of planting additions and its thriving. Meanwhile the one with amended soil, good drainage and blah blah looks like something that survived a nuclear attack.

Peachy

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Adam from Oz

Okay I have one in the ground that looks nothing like any of the above. When it stops raining I will get a photo to post and see what all the clever people have to say about it. btw Adam, it was planted straight into the ground in an non amended area with none of my usual little time of planting additions and its thriving. Meanwhile the one with amended soil, good drainage and blah blah looks like something that survived a nuclear attack.

Peachy

You mean to say you chucked an alfredii straight into your black muck?

This is one pic worth lurking for!

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peachy

Okay I have one in the ground that looks nothing like any of the above. When it stops raining I will get a photo to post and see what all the clever people have to say about it. btw Adam, it was planted straight into the ground in an non amended area with none of my usual little time of planting additions and its thriving. Meanwhile the one with amended soil, good drainage and blah blah looks like something that survived a nuclear attack.

Peachy

You mean to say you chucked an alfredii straight into your black muck?

This is one pic worth lurking for!

Well its still pouring here so it might be long wait. Anyhow, wozzen wot dunnit ya Onna, it were me mates from Siddanee. Brodklop brought it over as a post diluvian cheer up prezzie and had it in the ground before I had time to grab anything from my bags of tricks.

as always innocent of palm cruelty, Peachy

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Adam from Oz

I just checked the Brizzy radar - could be a bit of a wait...........................

MB, what do you use as fertiliser?

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MattyB

Adam,

I use a brand called Vigoro - Palm and Ixora Fertilizer

It's the cheapest, well balanced stuff you can buy around here. It's not slow release but I've never had a problem throwing a handfull or two on each palm, two times a year.

Here's the breakdown!!!!!!

The Guaranteed Analysis 8-4-8 Plus Minors

Total Nitrogen----------------8.0%

1.56% Ammoniacal Nitrogen

6.44% Urea Nitrogen

Available Phosphate--------------4.0%

Soluble Potash--------------------8.0%

Total Magnesium-----------------1.1%

1.1% Water Soluble Magnesium

Sulfur-----------------------------2.1%

Boron----------------------------0.02%

Total Copper--------------------0.05%

Total Iron------------------------1.5%

Molybdenum---------------------0.0005%

Total Zinc------------------------0.05%

Just a few weeks ago, I started an experiment with some 2 year, slow release fertilizer tablets made for the forestry industry. My hopes are that I'll only have to fertilize once a year at the most. It's really a pain in the butt for me since I use drip irrigation and have to apply the fertilizer into a hole I poke at each drip emitter. That's hundreds of emitters burried in the mulch that I have to crawl around on my hands an knees to find on the slope. Back breaking in it's own way.

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Walter John

Adam,

I use a brand called Vigoro - Palm and Ixora Fertilizer

It's the cheapest, well balanced stuff you can buy around here. It's not slow release but I've never had a problem throwing a handfull or two on each palm, two times a year.

Here's the breakdown!!!!!!

The Guaranteed Analysis 8-4-8 Plus Minors

Total Nitrogen----------------8.0%

1.56% Ammoniacal Nitrogen

6.44% Urea Nitrogen

Available Phosphate--------------4.0%

Soluble Potash--------------------8.0%

Total Magnesium-----------------1.1%

1.1% Water Soluble Magnesium

Sulfur-----------------------------2.1%

Boron----------------------------0.02%

Total Copper--------------------0.05%

Total Iron------------------------1.5%

Molybdenum---------------------0.0005%

Total Zinc------------------------0.05%

Just a few weeks ago, I started an experiment with some 2 year, slow release fertilizer tablets made for the forestry industry. My hopes are that I'll only have to fertilize once a year at the most. It's really a pain in the butt for me since I use drip irrigation and have to apply the fertilizer into a hole I poke at each drip emitter. That's hundreds of emitters burried in the mulch that I have to crawl around on my hands an knees to find on the slope. Back breaking in it's own way.

Oy Matty, won't the bigger/older palms be satisfied with deep layers of mulch and get their happiness from just that ? (devil's advocate question)

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Cindy Adair

Thanks for all the great information, entertainment and photos! I have nothing to add except a photo of my Beccariophoenix windows as of last week. A great grower in full sun in Puerto Rico, never fertilized or had any care other than encroaching vines removed 3-4 times a year.

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post-4111-095569800 1314403260_thumb.jpg

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Tyrone

Great little thread demonstrating the differences well.

I've found that B sp windows absolutely demands acid soil. Without it, you get a palm that seems to have an unquenchable thirst for iron. Cameleas and Azaleas get the same issue when grown on neutral to alkaline soils. They become iron deficient due to the soil holding on to iron much stronger than the plant can extract it. I've changed my mix to an acid one with a pH in the 5's and they don't get the deficiencies at all. B sp windows is growing for me really well for the first time. I used to get iron deficiencies in the pot regardless of how much iron I applied in chelated and ionic form. B madagascariensis gets it slightly but on about a 1/4 of the scale to B sp windows, and B alfredii wouldn't care less about things provided the soil is free draining. It would be interesting to know what your soil pH is.

So where does Beccariophoenix "Pointy Seed" fit in? 4th species???????? So much for the monotypic genus just a few years back. :D

Best regards

Tyrone

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Tyrone

Thanks for all the great information, entertainment and photos! I have nothing to add except a photo of my Beccariophoenix windows as of last week. A great grower in full sun in Puerto Rico, never fertilized or had any care other than encroaching vines removed 3-4 times a year.

Nice plant. Are you on humus rich acid soil?

Best regards

Tyrone

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NakaB

Thanks Matty Bergman! Nice job. Please have some low 30/high 20 temps this year so I can have a USEFUL cold reference. Thanks!

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LJG

Looking good Matt. I have found that BM and BA love water. I can't over water in my DG. Once I added additional sprayers they both started taking off.

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palmislandRandy

Thanks for the info Matt. I have 2 of the three & know now which one I need to get. :)

-Randy

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Adam from Oz

Adam,

I use a brand called Vigoro - Palm and Ixora Fertilizer

It's the cheapest, well balanced stuff you can buy around here. It's not slow release but I've never had a problem throwing a handfull or two on each palm, two times a year.

Here's the breakdown!!!!!!

The Guaranteed Analysis 8-4-8 Plus Minors

Total Nitrogen----------------8.0%

1.56% Ammoniacal Nitrogen

6.44% Urea Nitrogen

Available Phosphate--------------4.0%

Soluble Potash--------------------8.0%

Total Magnesium-----------------1.1%

1.1% Water Soluble Magnesium

Sulfur-----------------------------2.1%

Boron----------------------------0.02%

Total Copper--------------------0.05%

Total Iron------------------------1.5%

Molybdenum---------------------0.0005%

Total Zinc------------------------0.05%

Just a few weeks ago, I started an experiment with some 2 year, slow release fertilizer tablets made for the forestry industry. My hopes are that I'll only have to fertilize once a year at the most. It's really a pain in the butt for me since I use drip irrigation and have to apply the fertilizer into a hole I poke at each drip emitter. That's hundreds of emitters burried in the mulch that I have to crawl around on my hands an knees to find on the slope. Back breaking in it's own way.

Thanks MB!

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Justin

I've found that B sp windows absolutely demands acid soil. Without it, you get a palm that seems to have an unquenchable thirst for iron. Cameleas and Azaleas get the same issue when grown on neutral to alkaline soils. They become iron deficient due to the soil holding on to iron much stronger than the plant can extract it. I've changed my mix to an acid one with a pH in the 5's and they don't get the deficiencies at all. B sp windows is growing for me really well for the first time. I used to get iron deficiencies in the pot regardless of how much iron I applied in chelated and ionic form. B madagascariensis gets it slightly but on about a 1/4 of the scale to B sp windows, and B alfredii wouldn't care less about things provided the soil is free draining. It would be interesting to know what your soil pH is.

That would explain why they grow so well on the Big Island. Something about massive amounts of sulfuric acid in the rain...

In Vista, all my Hydrangeas are pink (with no chance of blue), and in Pahoa, all my Hydrangeas are blue (with no chance of pink).

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Sutter Bob

The only one I've been able to get through the winters up here is alfredii.

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quaman58

Great little thread demonstrating the differences well.

I've found that B sp windows absolutely demands acid soil. Without it, you get a palm that seems to have an unquenchable thirst for iron. Best regards

Tyrone

Tyrone,

Interesting perspective. If you're correct, it might be the "magic bullet" folks have been looking for regarding the "windows" form. Simple enough that even I can understand it. I've also had issues with some smaller ones yellowing, yet one in the ground is just getting really beefy & has no problems at all. I should measure the ph in the area it's growing; maybe it will confirm what you're thinking.

Bret

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Pez

Madagascariensis.... This palm definitely takes some patience in Florida. This one has been in the ground 3 years from a 10 gallon. It looked like crap for 2 years even blowing over in 20mph winds. But this year it has taken off having already opened 4 new fronds, each one considerably larger than the last. I don't have a windows in the ground but there are plenty of large ones around central & south florida. So they can definitely be grown in alkaline soil with the right fertilizer regimen.

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Mandrew968

Has anyone ever heard of Beccariophoenix coastal form? Which one is this?

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Peter Pacific

Classic post. Not only do we have a tutorial by MattyB, thanks, but we also had entertainment, thanks Dave!

I tried two Beccariophoenix this past year a madagascarensis and an alfredii only to see them destined for a slow death. Maybe we're too hot, too salty and too sandy down here.

Peter

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fiji jim

Nice one Matt,

So where does B. High Plateau fit?

Is it the same as B.alfredii?

I think that we have B.no windows and B.high plateau here.

Both are growing well in almost full day sun on a well draining slope.

Ours are from seeds germinated in late 2008 from Jeff M. and are now close to 3ft tall.

Jim

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Cindy Adair

Thanks for all the great information, entertainment and photos! I have nothing to add except a photo of my Beccariophoenix windows as of last week. A great grower in full sun in Puerto Rico, never fertilized or had any care other than encroaching vines removed 3-4 times a year.

Nice plant. Are you on humus rich acid soil?

Best regards

Tyrone

No idea since we've never had the soil tested. Looks brown (versus the red color not too far from us) and compares favorably to what we have in our Virginia Beach back yard and pretty much everything seems to grow that we've planted. The only plants that look deficient in something are the several Gnetum gnemons that have yellow leaves on each of the several small trees I've planted. They are alive, but NOT happy and I haven't figured out why. So whatever they need isn't in our soil...

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richnorm

Great thread. Are there not now 5 recognised forms? I think I read about a new form, in addition to Tyrone's pointy seed form, but I can't remember where! Maybe, it's just the 4. Mad and alf need heat, full sun and moisture for optimum growth rates. If I was starting again I would put sprouted seed of alfredii straight into the ground as germination rates are superb and they take full sun from the first leaf.

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richnorm

Has anyone ever heard of Beccariophoenix coastal form? Which one is this?

Maybe that's the 5th form I was thinking of though could be reference to windows (possibly to be named fenistralis?). Sorry, just adding to the confusion!

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BS Man about Palms

Yeomans work Matthew!! B)

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bgl

Matt,

Outstanding thread! :) We need more of these! I'm sure all three species will do extremely well for you in that location! And I'd love to come by one of these days and be impressed by everything you've done in such a relatively short amount of time! :)

Bo-Göran

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BS Man about Palms

Bo, good Idea! I think I may do a Kentiopsis thread... complete with mini movies..

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