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Laisla87

Carpentaria acuminata cold hardiness

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Laisla87

Hi,

I hated Carpentarias when I lived in the tropics...they were EVERYWHERE. Of course, I am now in a warm temperate area on the coast and starting to think about growing them here. Does anyone know how cold hardy they are? Could they be compared to Roystonea?

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brodklop

I know years back they tried them at the Botanical Gardens, but they struggled and eventually died. I don't know if they tried again. Maybe some of the other escapees may know of the success or otherwise of Carpies in Sydney.

Cheers and good luck

Brod

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Daryl

One of the botanical gardens carpies did really well, but they removed it. There were some nice ones in Kensington that were starting to fruit, but they got chopped down. They are certainly 'doable', and you would grow them easier than Adonidia.

regards,

Daryl

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Steve the palmreader

They seem to be able to take a little more cold than small Royals. But about the same as large royals

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peachy

I have 2 carpies here and one has survived -5 black frost, got defoliated but came back. My usual minimums of -2 and -3 dont seem to worry them. However they are quite slow growers at my place. I also have a carpie x veitchia and this is its first winter, so hopefully it will also be as tough as its parents are.

Peachy

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Tyrone

They love heat. A few fruiting ones around Perth. They don't like much frost or prolonged cool, but yes, much much easier than Adonidia. Would grow in the same sort of microclimate set up that Adonidia would do well in. A moderate speed grower for me. Imagine the same in Sydney.

Best regards

Tyrone

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Xenon

There used to be a mature specimen in Galveston, Texas (short, cool winters and long equatorial summers) that survived SNOW and -1C/30*F...

Carpentaria in S.E. Texas (Source)

DSC03280.jpg

I'm pretty sure -3.8*C/25*F last year killed it, if it survived -2.7*C/27*F in 2010 and a category 3 hurricane...

:) Jonathan

Edited by Xenon
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Davidl

I believe Carpentarias are ok if there is no frost to around 30 degrees F for short durations, but if it is longer than that they can die. I am speaking for my area only with my climate here. I lost some two years ago to frost with below 28 degrees for several hours and they were close to the size as the one shown from Texas. Carpentarias are close to the same cold hardiness as Royal's (Roystonea regia) when small but after a Royal gets big its much more hardier.

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sarasota alex

There are at least 8 mature Carpies in Sarasota that I know of, that had no damage at all during the last two winters. It went down to 27 with a total of several nights below freezing. 7 out of those 8 palms are on a south side of a building, so there was some protection there, another one at a different location was completely unprotected though

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paulgila

are you sure carpies are more cold-tolerant than roystonea? we can grow royals easily thru-out san diego in socal but you rarely(if ever) see a carpie here.

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sonoranfans

are you sure carpies are more cold-tolerant than roystonea? we can grow royals easily thru-out san diego in socal but you rarely(if ever) see a carpie here.

My thoughts exactly. Roystonea in my area have fared notably better than foxtails, frost/cold damage and recovery wise, and there are no carpies. The royals here are not "heat island" or "heated building" protected as they are in downtown sarasota. If carpies are that cold tolerant, it would be useful to know...

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paulgila

thanks for backing me up,tom! :lol:

a good rule of thumb for when you are pondering whether a palm will grow in a given region is to just look around & see if there are any.

any palmtalk alum will tell you this. B)

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sonoranfans

thanks for backing me up,tom! :lol:

a good rule of thumb for when you are pondering whether a palm will grow in a given region is to just look around & see if there are any.

any palmtalk alum will tell you this. B)

Paul,

I think all too often people will say something like it was 27 degrees(based on a weather station a few miles away) and not actually know the temp near the palm. My general rule of thumb is that if a palm is up near a building or under canopy, dont trust the quoted temp unless the poster had a temp sensor right next to it. I have plumeria near the house(6' away) that survived while small foxtail died 25' away this past winter at 28F plus frost. I know the royals of which I am speaking have no cover and are a hundred feet or more from any building(30' overall height). And I also know 20' foxtails that are struggling right now to recover that were 10' from a house. A small royal can be much more fragile than a big one, some died this year at 28F and frost. I would be willing to bet anyone dinner that a big royal will be tougher in the cold than any carpentaria acuminata out away from structure and canopy(to equalize temps). I am just interested in information here, dont want anyone to get the wrong idea and go kill palms unnecessarily.

Edited by sonoranfans

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Davidl

I should clarify my statement where I said the Carpies were killed by frost. I should of said they defoliated from frost and cold, but fungus finished them off. I saw two in Lakeport Fl that died from cold below 26F. If there is a building close to any palm it will help a little bit. Out in the open it depends on location. Near concrete, houses, lakes and of course elevation will all play a factor. Here in Florida there are so many factors that change every year that its hard to know exactly what to expect. One year it is warmer here than Sebring the next colder who knows what tomorrow will bring. I'm still waiting on global warming. I wish it would hurry up. This area is about to grow rapidly so maybe I will see the Island effect here in hooter ville :D

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Eric in Orlando

There were a few growing in the neighborhoods around Leu Gardens (just north of downtown Orlando). These were good sized specimens 10-15ft tall and had been growing for years. Several had survived one night of 27F in Jan. 2003. All suffered from the cold winter 2 years ago, not from the actual low but the cold duration. They had pretty much defoliated but grew back last summer. This past winter was another one with long periods of cool and none survived this spring.

Here at Leu Gardens we had 2 specimens. One was about 7ft tall and died this past winter. Another elsewhere in the Garden is about 15ft and suffered virtually no damage the past 2 winters.

There was a planting of them in Daytona Beach at some apartments beachside about 15-20ft tall. They had been growing for years. All had survived the winter 2 years ago. I saw them last Oct. and were all alive and recovering. I don't know how they fared after this past winter.

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Dave-Vero

Florida's past two winters were quite different.

2009-2010 wasn't terribly cold, but temperatures close to freezing persisted for more than a week, and there was even near-freezing rain. We are normally bone-dry when cold.

2010-2011 had all its bad stuff in December, with a -3.3 (26) freeze and a lesser freeze.

My two Carpentarias were pretty much unfazed the first winter, but suffered extensive leaf damage in the second. Remarkably, the first-ever inflorescence for one tree survived under the leaf base of a toasted leaf.

The damage is very similar to Roystonea regia in the same area and a bit worse than Archontophoenix tuckeri in my yard. A. cunninghamiana was unfazed, other than having slightly ratty leaves. Dypsis plumosa suffered damage similar to Carpentaria. In my yard, as in Orlando, tree cover seems important. My two carpies have clear sky overhead, but parts of the sky are blocked by tall oaks.

Carpentarias are kind of nice in that they grow fast and are attractive when young, so it's not much of a pain to replace individuals.

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sarasota alex

thanks for backing me up,tom! :lol:

a good rule of thumb for when you are pondering whether a palm will grow in a given region is to just look around & see if there are any.

any palmtalk alum will tell you this. B)

Paul,

I think all too often people will say something like it was 27 degrees(based on a weather station a few miles away) and not actually know the temp near the palm. My general rule of thumb is that if a palm is up near a building or under canopy, dont trust the quoted temp unless the poster had a temp sensor right next to it. I have plumeria near the house(6' away) that survived while small foxtail died 25' away this past winter at 28F plus frost. I know the royals of which I am speaking have no cover and are a hundred feet or more from any building(30' overall height). And I also know 20' foxtails that are struggling right now to recover that were 10' from a house. A small royal can be much more fragile than a big one, some died this year at 28F and frost. I would be willing to bet anyone dinner that a big royal will be tougher in the cold than any carpentaria acuminata out away from structure and canopy(to equalize temps). I am just interested in information here, dont want anyone to get the wrong idea and go kill palms unnecessarily.

Tom, this isn't the first time when instead of disagreeing with me you try to attack the credibility of my statements. I gotta tell you - I don't appreciate it!

Because of an overabundance of palms such as A. merrillii and D. lutescens in Sarasota when the last two winters happened, we now know most of the heat and cold islands here and have an idea of whether a place is colder, warmer or about the same as the airport. Although there was obviously a speculative element to what I said, I myself clearly defined it by saying where 7 of the 8 palms were located, and by assuming that it's obvious that since there was no thermometer near the palm that is to be taken into consideration when evaluating my observation. Furthermore, my statement was a description of an observation and was not nearly as speculative and unscientific as your phrase " I would be willing to bet anyone dinner that a big royal will be tougher in the cold than any carpentaria acuminata out away from structure and canopy". So if you are "just interested in information here", then stick to it!

By the way, this is where one of the 8 undamaged palms is located - http://www.google.com/maps?ll=27.298876,-82.520767&spn=0,0.016512&sll=27.299070,-82.521215&layer=c&cid=586572674248470981&cbp=13,340.29,,0,4.65&panoid=lMjlensUB0nKLSe97WIQ4w&t=h&z=17&cbll=27.298875,-82.520613

As you can see it gets no protection. And in case my observation is not credible enough for you, the surprising performance of this palm has been a subject of a discussion among other CFPACS members in Sarasota.

So the expectation here is that you should be more respectful to the opinions and facts expressed by your fellow palmtalkers and myself in particular. Your own posts are not immune to having consistency lapses and could be easily taken apart by a rational person for the purpose of pointing out the logical slips to the forum community. It just doesn't appeal to me as an acceptable form of conduct. This forum is too good to be polluted with that.

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spockvr6

Here is something I never thought Id see......one of my Carpentaria here in Tarpon Springs trying to seed! I figured they be dead long before this happened.

post-200-059654400 1309477963_thumb.jpg

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Dave-Vero

This summer's inflorescences are attracting pollinators, but I don't think I see fruits on the way.

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sonoranfans

thanks for backing me up,tom! :lol:

a good rule of thumb for when you are pondering whether a palm will grow in a given region is to just look around & see if there are any.

any palmtalk alum will tell you this. B)

Paul,

I think all too often people will say something like it was 27 degrees(based on a weather station a few miles away) and not actually know the temp near the palm. My general rule of thumb is that if a palm is up near a building or under canopy, dont trust the quoted temp unless the poster had a temp sensor right next to it. I have plumeria near the house(6' away) that survived while small foxtail died 25' away this past winter at 28F plus frost. I know the royals of which I am speaking have no cover and are a hundred feet or more from any building(30' overall height). And I also know 20' foxtails that are struggling right now to recover that were 10' from a house. A small royal can be much more fragile than a big one, some died this year at 28F and frost. I would be willing to bet anyone dinner that a big royal will be tougher in the cold than any carpentaria acuminata out away from structure and canopy(to equalize temps). I am just interested in information here, dont want anyone to get the wrong idea and go kill palms unnecessarily.

Tom, this isn't the first time when instead of disagreeing with me you try to attack the credibility of my statements. I gotta tell you - I don't appreciate it!

Because of an overabundance of palms such as A. merrillii and D. lutescens in Sarasota when the last two winters happened, we now know most of the heat and cold islands here and have an idea of whether a place is colder, warmer or about the same as the airport. Although there was obviously a speculative element to what I said, I myself clearly defined it by saying where 7 of the 8 palms were located, and by assuming that it's obvious that since there was no thermometer near the palm that is to be taken into consideration when evaluating my observation. Furthermore, my statement was a description of an observation and was not nearly as speculative and unscientific as your phrase " I would be willing to bet anyone dinner that a big royal will be tougher in the cold than any carpentaria acuminata out away from structure and canopy". So if you are "just interested in information here", then stick to it!

By the way, this is where one of the 8 undamaged palms is located - http://www.google.com/maps?ll=27.298876,-82.520767&spn=0,0.016512&sll=27.299070,-82.521215&layer=c&cid=586572674248470981&cbp=13,340.29,,0,4.65&panoid=lMjlensUB0nKLSe97WIQ4w&t=h&z=17&cbll=27.298875,-82.520613

As you can see it gets no protection. And in case my observation is not credible enough for you, the surprising performance of this palm has been a subject of a discussion among other CFPACS members in Sarasota.

So the expectation here is that you should be more respectful to the opinions and facts expressed by your fellow palmtalkers and myself in particular. Your own posts are not immune to having consistency lapses and could be easily taken apart by a rational person for the purpose of pointing out the logical slips to the forum community. It just doesn't appeal to me as an acceptable form of conduct. This forum is too good to be polluted with that.

Alex one of the problems with inexact science is that skepticism and criticism should be expected and tolerated without getting personal or wounded. :( those who cannot tolerate criticism cannot be scientists. It has happened on this forum many times before that people have disagreed on cold tolerances of palms, and that people report weather station temps that are not relevant to a palm under canopy or near a house. Because you found a very small sample of carpentaria, it SHOULD lead to skepticism, and you SHOULD be able to take the criticism without it getting personal. But as your first sentence indicated, it is not about carpentaria or royals or cold tolerance at all, its about another incendiary thread regarding proposed palm thieves "south of the border". I choose not to broach that topic, but I can say scientifically that the preponderance of data on royals in this area far outweighs a few carpentaria for which there are no close by temperature readings. At some point when more data are available on carpentaria being more cold tolerant than royals I will not consider it a personal affront to have been proven wrong. :D

This is, by the way, one of the biggest flaws in an inexperienced scientist: To take a small number of data and make larger sweeping conclusions...

Edited by sonoranfans

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Dave-Vero

post-275-070224800 1311115586_thumb.jpg

Here's my Carpie. The oldest inflorescence, foreground doesn't look likely to bear fruit, but younger ones are coming along.

Now if only the tree would pay more attention to growing new leaves.

This species is useful as short-term landscaping. Pretty when young, grows fast, easily replaced.

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sarasota alex

Tom I agree. We need a more solid sample to draw any conclusions. I was really contributing to that sample with my observation. My own Carpentaria grows near a southern wall of my house, so as you can see I was also cautious about leaving it out in the open.

I also agree with Dave about Carpies being great short-term palms where they could reliably last a few winters, much like Adonidias, Veitchias or Ptychospermas.

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rozpalm

I have several large ones 30' to +40' and they appear to have suffered more from the wind then the cold. My low temp in the garden was 32deg for 4hours this past winter. There was no cold damage to any of them. I am surprised that they won't grow in California if Royals can be grown there too. They both seem to love the same kind of environment--crappy sandy soil, lots of water and full sun.

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sonoranfans

Tom I agree. We need a more solid sample to draw any conclusions. I was really contributing to that sample with my observation. My own Carpentaria grows near a southern wall of my house, so as you can see I was also cautious about leaving it out in the open.

I also agree with Dave about Carpies being great short-term palms where they could reliably last a few winters, much like Adonidias, Veitchias or Ptychospermas.

I did not mean to disparage the value of your data on carpies Alex. It is sometimes frustrating when the cold tolerance data are so inconsistent. I have seen royals survive 20F in arizona overnight, but that was a radiational event of short duration(9 hours below 32F). I would not even suggest they would survive that temp in a longer florida cold snap. The data on carpies in our area is good data and especially valuable considering the lack of abundance of data on this species. I look forward to more data and have hopes that this species, if tolerant, will be used more in our area. I appreciate it when posters add comments like "under canopy" or "near a house" as as those qualifying variables could matter in marginal situations. I have a neighbor with a foxtail triple and right next door a single of the same size. In this past winters 2 consecutive hard frost events, the triple had only 50% frost burn while the single was completely defoliated. Both were an identical distance(20') from the houses and there was no overhead. The triple has come back strong, but the single, and a number of other singles nearby are very slow coming back. Perhaps a strength of the carpies is that they very suited to bunching in groups of 3-5. I also have a neighbor with a royal that is surrounded by 3 queens, not quite touching, and that royal(25') is a few feet taller than the queens. The royal wasnt even burned at all this winter, while a lone royal across the street was >50% burned. Planting in groups matters and it could be that strategy makes carpies a bit more cold tolerant than we expect. Cold tolerance is a complex subject, with radiational and advective cooling events and duration all playing a role. I expect its actually the temperature of the palm plant tissue and not the air that matters most as cellular damage will be a function of cellular fluid temps. Lots of data will be needed to reveal its true nature. Hopefully we will hear from others who are growing carpies with winter lows in the 26-29F degree range so we can better understand the cold tolerance of this species.

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Dave-Vero

In my yard last winter, it was clear that, even though the coldest night was windy, with pretty uniform temperatures across the Florida peninsula (Vero Beach wasn't much different from urban Orlando), much of the leaf damage from that and a slightly less freeze two weeks later was from radiative cooling. Even partial canopy proved protective. Leaf angle mattered a lot. One leaf would come through fine, the next not.

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RedRabbit

I finally bought one of these after casually searching for a few years. I’m torn on whether I should plant it here in Westchase where it will be marginal or at my Sarasota property where I’m confident it will be safe. It sounds somewhat cold tolerant so perhaps it’s worth a try here.

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