Royal Frond Falling

[Kumar]

I suppose i have only myself to blame for planting a royal at the property boundary with three other adjoining plots but on saturday I was told tht a frond from the royal very nearly fell on a neighbour. We have had the fronds causing minor damage to property in the past but this is serious. I've decided to explore whether some safety net can be installed aroundthe base of the palm or whether some coconut climber can be paid to come and hack of the lowest three fronds of the royal at intervals. Nevertheless the royal keeps getting taller and taller (Its past 50 feet now and grows nearlky two feet a year dropping ten fronds or so) and the fronds heavier. Another incident like this and it may have to be felled! Any ideas ?

Edited May 9, 2011 by Kumar

[DoomsDave]

Kumar, you are facing probably the number one issue relating to Royals wehre they grow well.

For those who don't know I offer the following:

Roystonea leaves are really huge, often close to 30 feet (10 m) long. When they die, they dry out and abscise from the trunk of the palm. Mature royal leaves are heavy, to 60 pounds (yep, that's not a mis-print: sixty pounds) and hard like hard wood or stone.

As Kumar and his neighbours rightly fear, a conk on the head with one of those could be gravely injurious, even deadly.

When the tree is young, you can just pull the leaves off when they're ready so they don't fall when no one's watching.

As the tree grows, the leaves get bigger and the distance they fall gets longer. It becomes difficult, then impossible to pull them off, so you have to wait till they're ready to fall.

I recall Louis and Carole Hooper and their magnificent royal here in La Habra. That thing was 60 feet (20 m) tall, and about three feet (1 m) thick at the base, and the leaves were an easy 25 fet (8 m) long. You could see that thing from half a mile off. It was ][expletive]ly gorgeous.

But, it was a royal pain in any part of the body you want to name. Big Royal was planted right next to the Hoopers' driveway and those leaves were big, hard, and heavy and when they fell, they hit with enough force to dent the CURVED part of roof of the Hoopers' mini-van where it joined the vertical wall of the body. Curved like your skull, mate.

Eventually, the Hoopers took the Royal out, and a local palm society guy bought it and took it to his place up in Anaheim Hills.

I've seen various ways attempted to catch the falling fronds, and the big problem is their sheer weight and size. The best method would seem to be a reverse-umbrella gadget that holds itself to the trunk with its own weight. The trouble is that it's hard to make something like that strong enough for the job, and not ugly as sin.

I'm curious to see what others have to say.

dave

[Bags]

I am curious to hear what some others in SoCal have to say about this one. I have one near my house that is not yet trunking and would not be too much trouble to remove. It seems that most complaints come from people in tropical areas where the growth rate is significantly faster. Right now I am only getting about two fronds a year. The Zoo here has a rope circling the crown shaft and wrapped around each petiol so they can not fall without some one climbing up and dropping it.

[edric]

I've seen photos of three rings of two inch tape around the petiole, not so bad looking, getting someone to change the tape, and remove fronds four times a year or so, well, Ed

[Kumar]

Dave, your 'reverse umbrella' method has been in my head for some time now - just that i was too embarassed to come out with it. The difficulty is that (1) I don't want any screwing or nailing onto the surface of the stem and (2) it just seems too weak. What I will check is whether four iron I-Bars about 10 feet tall can be propped up around the base and thereafter put in place a crisscross pattern of nylon or jute rope - it might work but is ugly!

The best bet seems to be getting someone to climb up and sawing off the lowest few fronds. I'll do that if I am convinced that (1) it won;t injure the palm, (2) the crownshaft by itself will not pose too much of a threat (3) the guys who do this are not liable to themselves falling off and wont use picks or nails to climb

[PalmatierMeg]

And there's nothing like a frond landing on the roof in the middle of the night. WHUMP! Our royal is about 15' from the house. We haven't worried too much about the hazard it sometimes presents. One, our royal isn't near the street or driveway. Two, we generally can see when a frond is fixing to fall and avoid standing under it. Three, we have vacant lots on either side of our property, so no immediate neighbors with reason to get in harm's way. Any kidding aside, it might be easier to put up a perimeter fence about 10' from the trunk so people don't wander too close. And a couple of warning signs to deter anyone from hugging your palm's gray pillar trunk.

[dalmatiansoap]

Do U have any pictures of it Kumar?

[DoomsDave]

Dave, your 'reverse umbrella' method has been in my head for some time now - just that i was too embarassed to come out with it. The difficulty is that (1) I don't want any screwing or nailing onto the surface of the stem and (2) it just seems too weak. What I will check is whether four iron I-Bars about 10 feet tall can be propped up around the base and thereafter put in place a crisscross pattern of nylon or jute rope - it might work but is ugly!

The best bet seems to be getting someone to climb up and sawing off the lowest few fronds. I'll do that if I am convinced that (1) it won;t injure the palm, (2) the crownshaft by itself will not pose too much of a threat (3) the guys who do this are not liable to themselves falling off and wont use picks or nails to climb

The great thing about the reverse umbrella is that it requires no nails into the trunk. Rather, gravity holds it in place against the trunk. The big problem is: Making that thing strong enough to do the job without injuring the trunk. Royal trunks are fat and full of water, and when they get injured, they look bad and stay looking bad.

If you can't get your neighbors to agree to a fence or a sign and being careful, it might be best for all concerned to remove the offending palm () and plant a new one in a better spot. Hate to say it, but court battles suck, as I know too well.

[LJG]

I am curious to hear what some others in SoCal have to say about this one. I have one near my house that is not yet trunking and would not be too much trouble to remove. It seems that most complaints come from people in tropical areas where the growth rate is significantly faster. Right now I am only getting about two fronds a year. The Zoo here has a rope circling the crown shaft and wrapped around each petiol so they can not fall without some one climbing up and dropping it.

I am currently in the same boat. I have three that are on borders but still there are some nice things next to them. I have been to a few gardens where you look at a cycad or understory palm and it is smashed. You ask what happen and they tell you to look up. It is a Royal. I am very close to giving mine away while still somewhat small.

[Mandrew968]

60 pounds?!! No way, sorry! also, no way to 30 foot long leaves! I live in Miami--I'm callin' your bluff, and again I say, "No way, Jose!!"

[BigFrond]

The fronds on mine are about 15 feet now and they're huge and heavy. This palm was planted 20 feet away from the house so there will be no problem. I'm just afraid that some frond may fall into the neighbor's yard or someone's head in my backyard. I was thinking about chopping it down but the wife is having none of it because she is tire of me chopping down any plant/tree that I have any second thought about. I'm also afraid of lightning too because my house is on a ridge-top and it is the tallest thing miles around and getting taller.

[Kumar]

Do U have any pictures of it Kumar?

This is the view up from Ground Zero (5x zoom) - The building on the left is the third floor for scale. The yellow up there is an old frond getting ready to do its business. The royal on the left is more slender with shorter fronds and has the added advantage of being sharing just one wall instead of three.

I also thought some sort of batman-like grappling iron could be used to shoot into the dying frond when still attached to the trunk and then pull it down but its too impractical. My royal's fronds have been measured to be exceeding 22 feet on average including a six-seven foot long crownshaft. As for weight, I can believe what Dave says as we sell these leaves sometimes as vegetable scrap and the crownshaft when fresh alone weighs about 9 kilos. Together with the rest of the frond it must be at least 20 kilos (45 pounds).

PS - In the distance you can see an even taller coconut that must be at least 80 feet high. Mysteriously millions of people have tall coconuts in their compound but never seem to suffer coconut frond problems.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Kumar

[sonoranfans]

I am thinking about puttin a pergola in to protect the walkway under my royal. Ive see some heavy duty aluminum ones @ costco that could do the trick I think, strong enough to take the hit. the beams should be tangent to the trunk so a frond cant slip through. I still have time as mine only have 8' of clear trunk...

[dalmatiansoap]

Huge indeed. Only thing that comes to me is to tie fronds to the crownshaft and whan they loose from the tree they will not fall down. Thats the way U can have falling fronds under control.

[DoomsDave]

60 pounds?!! No way, sorry! also, no way to 30 foot long leaves! I live in Miami--I'm callin' your bluff, and again I say, "No way, Jose!!"

That's regia.

Oleraceas do get that big, oh yeah. They're regias on steroids.

OH YEAH.

I took one of the Hoopers' dead leaves and weighed it with a scale, and it was right around 60 pounds. (One of those dangle-scales, not a bathroom scale.) Reggies around here aren't even close.

Sorry for the confusion . . .

(Ow, my achin' sacrailiac!)

[DoomsDave]

The fronds on mine are about 15 feet now and they're huge and heavy. This palm was planted 20 feet away from the house so there will be no problem. I'm just afraid that some frond may fall into the neighbor's yard or someone's head in my backyard. I was thinking about chopping it down but the wife is having none of it because she is tire of me chopping down any plant/tree that I have any second thought about. I'm also afraid of lightning too because my house is on a ridge-top and it is the tallest thing miles around and getting taller.

As Sir Walter Raleigh once said about the headsman's axe, I will say about lightning: "Strong medicine, but it cures all ills."

You can get a lightning rod . . . . (make sure your can add to it)

[DoomsDave]

I am thinking about puttin a pergola in to protect the walkway under my royal. Ive see some heavy duty aluminum ones @ costco that could do the trick I think, strong enough to take the hit. the beams should be tangent to the trunk so a frond cant slip through. I still have time as mine only have 8' of clear trunk...

Try, somehow, some way, to test it. Those dead leaves are heavy . . .

I was astounded at the damage they did to the Hoopers' van. It took a hard hit to dent the roof in 2".

[Darold Petty]

Rhopalostylis has the same problem. I tie mine up with elastic cord (bungee cord) so that the leaf won't fall. This works well now, as the crownshafts are only about 5 meters high. However, the palms will get taller as I get older!

[DoomsDave]

Here's one of Darold's bound and gagged Rhopies, you can see the cord in the top.

[Kumar]

That's a means worth trying - but any chance of damaging the newer growth? Maybe stifling it?

There is still the problem of the frond snapping at the petiole. Most of my old fronds are a bit sticky and hang limp for a couple of weeks. By then the petuole has almost torn itself free anyway.

[Kailua_Krish]

Ive seen them use the bungee cords around them in the outdoor malls in south Florida where pedestrians sit underneath them.

-krishna

[BeaumontTropics]

The fronds on mine are about 15 feet now and they're huge and heavy. This palm was planted 20 feet away from the house so there will be no problem. I'm just afraid that some frond may fall into the neighbor's yard or someone's head in my backyard. I was thinking about chopping it down but the wife is having none of it because she is tire of me chopping down any plant/tree that I have any second thought about. I'm also afraid of lightning too because my house is on a ridge-top and it is the tallest thing miles around and getting taller.

As Sir Walter Raleigh once said about the headsman's axe, I will say about lightning: "Strong medicine, but it cures all ills."

You can get a lightning rod . . . . (make sure your can add to it)

That's true, Dave, but throughout history it's been proven that people who have been wrongfully imprisoned have said rash things. I prefer Benjamin Franklin's Poor Richards' Almanac, "Love thy neighbor, yet don't cut down your hedge..." (or in this case, Royal!)

[DoomsDave]

The fronds on mine are about 15 feet now and they're huge and heavy. This palm was planted 20 feet away from the house so there will be no problem. I'm just afraid that some frond may fall into the neighbor's yard or someone's head in my backyard. I was thinking about chopping it down but the wife is having none of it because she is tire of me chopping down any plant/tree that I have any second thought about. I'm also afraid of lightning too because my house is on a ridge-top and it is the tallest thing miles around and getting taller.

As Sir Walter Raleigh once said about the headsman's axe, I will say about lightning: "Strong medicine, but it cures all ills."

You can get a lightning rod . . . . (make sure your can add to it)

That's true, Dave, but throughout history it's been proven that people who have been wrongfully imprisoned have said rash things. I prefer Benjamin Franklin's Poor Richards' Almanac, "Love thy neighbor, yet don't cut down your hedge..." (or in this case, Royal!)

I'm not so sure Big Wally was rash. I think he was contemplative, and resigned to his (unpleasant) fate.

But, I did offer a lightning rod . . .

[Walter John]

I am thinking about puttin a pergola in to protect the walkway under my royal. Ive see some heavy duty aluminum ones @ costco that could do the trick I think, strong enough to take the hit. the beams should be tangent to the trunk so a frond cant slip through. I still have time as mine only have 8' of clear trunk...

I really like this idea, although I would have a timber one.

[Daryl]

They have started placing bands around the crownshafts of publicly planted royals here. The bands look like that strapping they use on shipping pallets. It stops the leaves from flattening anything, but looks unsightly and appears to compress the crownshafts a bit as well..couldn't be good for the palm's health...

Daryl

[sonoranfans]

I am thinking about puttin a pergola in to protect the walkway under my royal. Ive see some heavy duty aluminum ones @ costco that could do the trick I think, strong enough to take the hit. the beams should be tangent to the trunk so a frond cant slip through. I still have time as mine only have 8' of clear trunk...

Try, somehow, some way, to test it. Those dead leaves are heavy . . .

I was astounded at the damage they did to the Hoopers' van. It took a hard hit to dent the roof in 2".

2 by 8's with 4 by 4's or even 6 by 6's as posts would be plenty tough and very likely take any hit from a royal frond. Car sheetmetal is not terribly strong, even in curved areas. I could stand on it and dent it with a little jump. You look at a royal frond and see the weight is distributed, so the impact force will not be as great as a 50 lb suitcase whos mass is more concentrated. The aluminum pergola I saw was very rugged, my 210 lbs could easily hang on it with no notable flexing at midpoint of the joist, and aluminum wouldnt be subject to rotting. But pressure treated wood could work as well or for $$$ cedar or laminate beams, which are very strong. You could make a hanging garden out of it so it wouldnt be unsightly. I will not band my royals, I dont want to throttle them at the crown and dont want to see that band. The pergola will not have to be adjusted, with me or somebody else up on a ladder or paying some guy on a bucket truck, and you can always replace a beam if necessary.

[palmislandRandy]

One of my Royal's fronds took out my neighbors Corvette covertible top. He doesn't leave it in the driveway anymore.

[Mandrew968]

60 pounds?!! No way, sorry! also, no way to 30 foot long leaves! I live in Miami--I'm callin' your bluff, and again I say, "No way, Jose!!"

That's regia.

Oleraceas do get that big, oh yeah. They're regias on steroids.

OH YEAH.

I took one of the Hoopers' dead leaves and weighed it with a scale, and it was right around 60 pounds. (One of those dangle-scales, not a bathroom scale.) Reggies around here aren't even close.

Sorry for the confusion . . .

(Ow, my achin' sacrailiac!)

Who has Oleraceas in So Cal?! They are marginal in South Florida--I'd say they are the most sensitive to cold in the genus; I've seen ten footers die after some of our one nice cold snaps...

[Kumar]

Just spotted another one getting ready to fall - must have unwrapped last night. It's facing the neighbours so definitely not good

[DoomsDave]

dANG, kUMAR

That Royal IS GORGEOUS

They just don't look that way here, alas!

dave

[DoomsDave]

60 pounds?!! No way, sorry! also, no way to 30 foot long leaves! I live in Miami--I'm callin' your bluff, and again I say, "No way, Jose!!"

That's regia.

Oleraceas do get that big, oh yeah. They're regias on steroids.

OH YEAH.

I took one of the Hoopers' dead leaves and weighed it with a scale, and it was right around 60 pounds. (One of those dangle-scales, not a bathroom scale.) Reggies around here aren't even close.

Sorry for the confusion . . .

(Ow, my achin' sacrailiac!)

Who has Oleraceas in So Cal?! They are marginal in South Florida--I'd say they are the most sensitive to cold in the genus; I've seen ten footers die after some of our one nice cold snaps...

They'll grow here, though they are marginal, too.

We don't get as cold as south Florida can get, since we have our Might Mountains Majesty to protect us.

But yeah, I lost a 30-footer to a four-day freeze in 2007.

:rage: :rage:

Ahem

If they get tall enough, they will survive. The Hoopers' did, and it wasn't a regia. No mistaking that ollie crown, leaves NOT hangin' down . . .

how it makes me quiver

[Takil-Explorer]

Well dropping palms are not a problem here fortunately. The few advantages of a cold climate I guess...

Alexander

[Kumar]

Update - it just fell - sounded like a small car crash. It's too dark to look out now (midnight) so damage assessment will have to wait till morning. The saving grace is that no human is likely to have been wandering about this late at night.

[Dave-Vero]

There are some advantages to having smaller-leaved palms. My Archontophoenix cunninghamiana is about to unfurl a new leaf, having just disposed of an old one. Even at this scale, the plant engineering is impressive (sucking nutrients from the old leaf, getting the spear to be perfectly vertical until unfurling, and the sheer size of the leaves).

Leaf drop is a real problem. Cutting older leaves so that only the leaf base falls is probably a good safety practice.

[Kumar]

We had a storm last night and a leaf from my larger royal broke off and fell.

Here are two photos showing the monster (size 9 sandal for scale).. I tape-measured it to be 21 feet long excluding the crownshaft and about a foot of petiole where it snapped off. With the whole petiole and crownshaft I think it may be 27-28 feet.

Actually leaves falling in a storm is the lesser problem because people are usually indoors. It's when it falls on a calm morning / afternoon that the danger arises

Edited June 13, 2014 by Kumar

[Peter Pacific]

The Royal fronds are incredibly heavy and Dave was easy saying 60 pounds. I've read of leaves weighing up to 100 pounds. If you go to Ft Myers Florida, the City of Palms, huge Royals flank McGregor Blvd, that were planted by Thomas Edison, and they have their problems with falling leaves.

Kumar, I'm not sure how it is in India but on the coast of Guatemala, the young men make stirrups out of rope and shimmy up the coconuts to cut off the dried leaves, much like the guys climbing telephone polls, but are usually wearing flip flops and not sturdy boots with cletes. It may be easier to cut off the dried leaf and leave the boot for a while longer, this way the leaf will still be heavy but a little lighter and will only have a meter or so of length to ease the damage of falling leaves.

[Kumar]

Kumar, I'm not sure how it is in India but on the coast of Guatemala, the young men make stirrups out of rope and shimmy up the coconuts to cut off the dried leaves, much like the guys climbing telephone polls, but are usually wearing flip flops and not sturdy boots with cletes. It may be easier to cut off the dried leaf and leave the boot for a while longer, this way the leaf will still be heavy but a little lighter and will only have a meter or so of length to ease the damage of falling leaves.

Peter, you're right about the description and work kit; the trouble is they manage because coconuts are usually slanting and have a very rough surface with the leaf scars providing (apparently) a lot of climbing assistance. Royals do not seem well suited for climbing without invasive techniques (leaving aside ladders and external aids). The climbers I spoke to demanded to be use a spiked shoe or climbing axe which is a non-starter for me. I am also very worried of the liability issues in case any climber were to slip and get hurt. Even amongst coconuts, the coconut / oil / coir plantations in south india where farmers grow coconuts by the millions usually cut down the trees once they reach 20+ feet due to height management difficulties.

[doranakandawatta]

How do they do in big cities with big royals?

Here in Singapore, in front of the Fullerton Hotel

[Peter Pacific]

Philippe, they have a crew removing the dead leaves. Especially in front of government buildings and hotels. You'd get fined if you find a dead leaf on the ground in Singapore!

Peter

[Mike Evans]

60 pounds?!! No way, sorry! also, no way to 30 foot long leaves! I live in Miami--I'm callin' your bluff, and again I say, "No way, Jose!!"

That's regia.

Oleraceas do get that big, oh yeah. They're regias on steroids.

OH YEAH.

I took one of the Hoopers' dead leaves and weighed it with a scale, and it was right around 60 pounds. (One of those dangle-scales, not a bathroom scale.) Reggies around here aren't even close.

Sorry for the confusion . . .

(Ow, my achin' sacrailiac!)

Dave, you are absolutely right. The R. regia can weigh up to 60#. I carry out about 6 - 10 royal leaves / week out of my garden. When they fall with green leaves, they are easily up to 60#+. I also carry a lot of 50# bags of fert around the garden, and they are lighter. Andy must not have any mature royals in his garden.

I have a circular drive w/ royals on one side and thinking about posting no parking signs on that side where the leaves fall. They will cause some severe damage when falling. It makes a horrendous sound.

Tom, as far as using alum structure for protection, my pool screen cage has 2X4 alum channel at the top. It has a very bad dent in it from falling Royal leaves, 50'+, not to mention tearing the screen. You may want to switch to wood.