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palmtreesforpleasure

Hyophorbe vaughanii

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palmtreesforpleasure

Some red Hyophorbe indica's were sold as H.vaughnii,

is any one growing the real thing? have any pictures, growing condition verses the otherHyopherbe's

regards

Colin

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Mandrew968

I know of one growing in Homestead, Florida and ready to fruit. It's in the full sun, looks a lot like Indica, but is a bit more orangish yellow. I'd say the trunk is about 4-6' tall. I know once the fruit is ready, he'll germinate, and if there is enough, sell them :)

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BS Man about Palms

I know of one growing in Homestead, Florida and ready to fruit. It's in the full sun, looks a lot like Indica, but is a bit more orangish yellow. I'd say the trunk is about 4-6' tall. I know once the fruit is ready, he'll germinate, and if there is enough, sell them :)

Probably the same "RED" one I'm thinking of... Although touted, I'm skeptical. But then again, I wouldn't know the difference either! :)

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Jeff Searle

Very interesting, don't count on it. If their going to promote this palm as H V, they better be ready to back it up with some flower and seed DNA. Just saying....

Jeff

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Tyrone

I saw some pics on here somewhere of a plant in the Mascarenes. Looks closest to H indica but different. It's meant to grow very slowly in habitat and the ones pictured were very small. H indica seems to be a much bigger plant and is a very fast grower. The red ones appear to be even quicker than the green.

Best regards

Tyrone

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Mandrew968

I'm no expert, but collectively, Palmtalk is! Hopefully someone can step up and definitively identify this palm as the "alleged" Vaughanii...

post-5491-007716300 1304038312_thumb.jpg

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Mandrew968

So what's the verdict, people? Are we gonna have to wait for the seed to mature? Can anyone discern between Indica seed and Vaughanii, when we get there?

Edited by Mandrew968

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Tyrone

Here's a link to PACSOA.

http://www.pacsoa.org.au/palms/Hyophorbe/vaughanii.html

I seem to remember somewhere that H indica has 3 major veins on either side of the main central vein in the leaflet whereas H vaughanii has 5. BUT, I have never seen a vaughanii to be able to test this out. H indica definitely has 3, so you'd kind of expect H vaughanii to have wider leaflets than H indica if this is true.

So I can't really tell if your picture is of H vaughanii. It's a nice Hyophorbe though.

Best regards

Tyrone

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quaman58

It's an interesting looking palm. The first thing that caught my eye was the bulbous crownshaft; very similar to verschafeltii. If I didn't know that vaughanii existed, I would guess something like verschafeltii x indica. Very cool.

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Mandrew968

Thank you, sir--I thought it very cool as well(kinda wouldn't mind if it were an Indica, because I have one and would be proud to have a palm that looked like like this one, in my yard :) ).

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Tyrone

My thoughts are it's full sun grown H indica, and a nice one at that.

Best regards

Tyrone

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palmtreesforpleasure

Here are a few pictures of h vaughanii at Kew,

I will post higher resolution pictures when i can

Notice the petioles which appear different to indica

regards

Colin

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and so, the question remains, who has got one?

regards

colin

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Tyrone

Thanks for the pics. No indica I've seen looks like that. I've got red indicas and they're not that like that. Had to laugh at the label though. Madagascar?????????? Kew should be a bit more accurate than that.

Best regards

Tyrone

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Mandrew968

Thanks for the photos, Colin. I still can't get a good visual of the whole plant; if you could, please take one of the entire plant, standing a bit further back. If the plant I posted is not Vaughanii, then Indica is highly variable(there are others, near the "Vaughanii" that are Indica that look different from the palm I posted).

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Tyrone

The PACSOA link in Post 8 shows a whole plant, with the same look as the Kew plant. H indica is variable in looks.

I can also make out from Colins pics the 5 veins on either side of the central vein. I can sort of make out 3 veins on either side of the flowering specimen, so I'd say an indica it is.

Best regards

Tyrone

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palmtreesforpleasure

Hi Mandew

If Tyrone is correct, all you would have to do is compare the veins in the leaflets.

pictures i have seen in the past look similar to the one shown. If you could check the veins on the leaves on those growing there, we may have an answer and a future source of seed to get them spread about for preservation, i would like some for Royal botanical gardens Sydney.

I could not get a clear picture as it was packed in amongst other potted palms

hope this helps

regards

colin

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Daryl

Comparing the PACSOA photos with those of Mandrew's, I'd say the palm in question is H.indica. I wonder if Phillip obtained any seed of that plant???

Daryl

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palmtreesforpleasure

Comparing the PACSOA photos with those of Mandrew's, I'd say the palm in question is H.indica. I wonder if Phillip obtained any seed of that plant???

Daryl

Hi Daryl

Using a small netbook at the moment, so a bit hard to see the detail sometimes, shame it is not the vaughanii,

it seems this palm is indeed rare as no one seems to know where there is any outside habitat, There needs to be an effort put into spreading the seed to botanical institutions

regards

colin

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Tyrone

Colin, my personal feeling is this species does not exist outside of Mauritius. I agree that this species needs to be spread to botanical institutions and then to collectors in areas where it may seed for continuance of the species. Without these efforts I think this species will become extinct soon. :(

Best regards

Tyrone

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ariscott

Unfortunately... some collectors don't like to share, Tyrone. You have to be careful who you give it to....

Regards, Ari :)

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Mandrew968

Four days later -

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post-5491-010151200 1304377898_thumb.jpg

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Mandrew968

That was the palm in question, above. Now I will post some known indica photos for comparison..

post-5491-001257500 1304424511_thumb.jpg

post-5491-060521600 1304424527_thumb.jpg

post-5491-083323800 1304424553_thumb.jpg

post-5491-052453000 1304424714_thumb.jpg

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Mandrew968

The flower structures were different on both plants, so they are not exactly the same--that's for sure...

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Mandrew968

Man, I post these photos and all I hear is crickets... :violin:

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quaman58

Good pictures; the leaflet veins are different for sure, but if I'm understanding Trone's comment the Vaugnii should have 5 veins on either side of the central vein whereas the one in question has 5 total. The one thing most notable to me in the Kew pictures, is the heavy wax on the petioles. The picture on the Pacsoa website has precisely the same mottled, waxy appearance. None of the indicas I am growing exibit this.

Bret

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Tyrone

Good pictures; the leaflet veins are different for sure, but if I'm understanding Trone's comment the Vaugnii should have 5 veins on either side of the central vein whereas the one in question has 5 total. The one thing most notable to me in the Kew pictures, is the heavy wax on the petioles. The picture on the Pacsoa website has precisely the same mottled, waxy appearance. None of the indicas I am growing exibit this.

Bret

I agree with you. H vaughanii is an extremely rare palm in cultivation, and probably is only grown at Kew and Mauritius. :(

This is one I've been after for years.

Best regards

Tyrone

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Mandrew968

Can someone show us the veins of a real Vaughanii? I would also like to have someone explain why the two different Indicas I posted have different leaflets and different inflorescenses. I am having a hard time believing that Indica is that variable... I guess because this palm is considered, "ugly" no one cares?..

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quaman58

Can someone show us the veins of a real Vaughanii? I would also like to have someone explain why the two different Indicas I posted have different leaflets and different inflorescenses. I am having a hard time believing that Indica is that variable... I guess because this palm is considered, "ugly" no one cares?..

Actually, I like Indicas. Any lack of interest might be because of the rarity of this palm. You'd probably have the same reaction when discussing palms like Pritchardiopsis or Tectiphiala; most folks havn't ever heard of them much less have anything to add about them. But the fact that you posted this help me (& a few other nerds) learn a bit, so thanks for that!

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LJG

Can someone show us the veins of a real Vaughanii? I would also like to have someone explain why the two different Indicas I posted have different leaflets and different inflorescenses. I am having a hard time believing that Indica is that variable... I guess because this palm is considered, "ugly" no one cares?..

Actually, I like Indicas. Any lack of interest might be because of the rarity of this palm. You'd probably have the same reaction when discussing palms like Pritchardiopsis or Tectiphiala; most folks havn't ever heard of them much less have anything to add about them. But the fact that you posted this help me (& a few other nerds) learn a bit, so thanks for that!

Indica can be found at every palm specific nursery around soCal. They are quote common actually. I think they are a bad palm for most of SoCal. I once had 4 in my yard and I will be ripping out the last one this spring. It is an old one with 3 feet of trunk too. It never holds more than a few leaves and always burns in the sun. Too many other plants to grow that look and do better in my opinion. If you live on the coast, come dig my big one - green form. Yours free :)

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Mandrew968

Very pertinent, Len...

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quaman58

Can someone show us the veins of a real Vaughanii? I would also like to have someone explain why the two different Indicas I posted have different leaflets and different inflorescenses. I am having a hard time believing that Indica is that variable... I guess because this palm is considered, "ugly" no one cares?..

Actually, I like Indicas. Any lack of interest might be because of the rarity of this palm. You'd probably have the same reaction when discussing palms like Pritchardiopsis or Tectiphiala; most folks havn't ever heard of them much less have anything to add about them. But the fact that you posted this help me (& a few other nerds) learn a bit, so thanks for that!

Indica can be found at every palm specific nursery around soCal. They are quote common actually. I think they are a bad palm for most of SoCal. I once had 4 in my yard and I will be ripping out the last one this spring. It is an old one with 3 feet of trunk too. It never holds more than a few leaves and always burns in the sun. Too many other plants to grow that look and do better in my opinion. If you live on the coast, come dig my big one - green form. Yours free :)

Sorry Len, I wasn't very clear; I meant to say Vaugnii was the rare one. My bad. I agree with you about the sparseness of the indica crowns, at least in SoCal. I have 4, but planted as doubles. That helps.

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Tyrone

H indica's only ever hold 5 or 6 leaves. All Hyophorbes are like this. Grown well they are a beautiful palm. Nothing ugly about them IMO. I've got quite a few in the ground and they grow like mad.

For a view of a H vaughanii leaflet have a look at one of the pictures from Kew that Colin put up in this thread. The 5 veins on either side of the central one is plain in it. You won't see that in an indica.

Best regards

Tyrone

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Pedro 65

H indica's only ever hold 5 or 6 leaves. All Hyophorbes are like this. Grown well they are a beautiful palm. Nothing ugly about them IMO. I've got quite a few in the ground and they grow like mad.

For a view of a H vaughanii leaflet have a look at one of the pictures from Kew that Colin put up in this thread. The 5 veins on either side of the central one is plain in it. You won't see that in an indica.

Best regards

Tyrone

Hi Tyrone, any chance in sending a pic or pics of your Indicas to show why there so special to you.(it will show us to see what you see) Personally, i really love the black-purple crownshaft, but give me a Hyphorbe Verschaffeltii( Spindle) ANYDAY. Pete

Edited by Pedro 65

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LJG

H indica's only ever hold 5 or 6 leaves. All Hyophorbes are like this. Grown well they are a beautiful palm. Nothing ugly about them IMO. I've got quite a few in the ground and they grow like mad.

For a view of a H vaughanii leaflet have a look at one of the pictures from Kew that Colin put up in this thread. The 5 veins on either side of the central one is plain in it. You won't see that in an indica.

Best regards

Tyrone

Well you don't live in hot SoCal sun with near freezing winters either. Winter is tough on them and sun is too. And 5 - 6 good leaves would be a blessing here. Like I sad, there are better palms to grow where I am at. There are some great examples of this palm on the coastal areas of SoCal however. I can name a hundred palms that are ugly here but gorgeous in more tropical areas. Just the way it goes.

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Tyrone

Len my climate probably isn't much different to yours except I'm in all likelihood hotter than you in summer.

Peter, I'll see if I can get you some pics.

Best regards

Tyrone

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LJG

Len my climate probably isn't much different to yours except I'm in all likelihood hotter than you in summer.

Peter, I'll see if I can get you some pics.

Best regards

Tyrone

I think they are similar in name only - Mediterranean climate. We are basically in the gray area of arid and semi-arid. Your record lows and average lows are always a few degrees better. Overall we do have milder summer temperatures, but are certainly colder in winter. When growing tropical's and borderline things those few degrees make a big difference year after year. Stressed tropical's from cold are weaker plants going into hot summer sun. Also you get 34 inches of rain, we average 9.8 inches. This matters a lot too. Not to mention I would certainly take your water temps over ours. Judging from your post over the years of what you grow and that can be grown out here, you seem to have the advantage for those borderline things.

Another thing odd here (maybe there too?) is winter sun is damaging. The suns low angle hits shaded summer plants and burns them at a bad time. Would only one degree latitude matter that much? 32° 72' N verses 31° 60' S?

Having seen Hyophorbe indica in Hawaii and Thailand, I added four to my yard. It is a pretty plant. But it is too borderline for me. I grew tired of looking at a plant with 4 leaves and two or three of them brown and yellow from cold and sun. I am with Pete on Hyophorbe verschaffeltii. I personally find this to be a hardier plant for SoCal and it handles sun better. It yellows in winter but actually greens back up a little once the soil temps rise in late spring.

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Tyrone

Len, I'm not really disagreeing with you that much. People here say they can't be grown either. But then there are people here who will kill a Bangalow palm. Marginal climates can be a complex little issue. Creating suitable microclimates for marginal plants is an art that can only be achieved by trial and error, mostly error. You can't really learn it from a text book.

My 34 inches of rain falls in the wrong time of year. There are two times in the year when I may lose a potted indica. During the winter rains (Hyophorbe hate wet cold feet) and during a 40C plus heatwave if they get too much sun. What I've found with H indica is it is not a palm that likes full sun until it emerges from the canopy (at least in hot climates). In the wild it grows in semi-open rainforest and develops a zigzagging trunk as it follows the light until it emerges. This is quite unlike the bottle and spindle which need a lot of sun to be healthy.

We can get winter sunburn here, but it's generally once the air has dried out if we get a dry spell. I've had small golden canes start to fry during winter. I'd imagine this would be more common in your area due to the drier winters and higher day time winter temps you can occasionally get which we don't ever get.

I agree that one extra degree can make a difference. But that can vary even within the same locality. I know of people who can grow things I can't grow just a few miles away and I can grow things they can't. That's just the way it goes. My sister is growing a killer Areca vestiara in the ground and has done for a few years. All my attempts have failed. Am I jealous? You bet. :D

Best regards

Tyrone

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Tyrone

Here are some H indica pics from my place. I must warn you that I'm not a good photographer and it was very hard to try and get the palms into shot because I couldn't get far enough away from them to get them in frame due to all the dense vegetation. Also the lighting wasn't the best today. Now enough of the excuses. My two large ones are the green version. The dark one was grown from seed delivered in May 05 as a southern form from RPS. My large green ones were planted in 2002 just starting to trunk from a 45L bag.

Best regards

Tyrone

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Pedro 65

H indica's only ever hold 5 or 6 leaves. All Hyophorbes are like this. Grown well they are a beautiful palm. Nothing ugly about them IMO. I've got quite a few in the ground and they grow like mad.

For a view of a H vaughanii leaflet have a look at one of the pictures from Kew that Colin put up in this thread. The 5 veins on either side of the central one is plain in it. You won't see that in an indica.

Best regards

Tyrone

Hi Tyrone, any chance in sending a pic or pics of your Indicas to show why there so special to you.(it will show us to see what you see) Personally, i really love the black-purple crownshaft, but give me a Hyphorbe Verschaffeltii( Spindle) ANYDAY. Pete

Tyrone, Thanks for sending pics of your Indicas and 2nd shot Bangalow? I hope Perth and all of southern WA receives above average rainfall this winter after your record dry and heat. {amazing your indicas are alive) I lived in Cottesloe when we won the Americas Cup, it was a fun time. I was studying in Fremantle for my Masters skippers certificate,I do remember the summers very hot and no rain. Great for beautiful Cottesloe Beach or Swanbourne for the Natural but very harsh for Palms. Good Luck with all your Endeavours. Pete

ps My Brothers farm 12,000 acres of grain in WA, so i hope the rains start falling soon.

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Mandrew968

Tyrone, lovely photos. The first indica photo I posted has the same number of veins in the leaf as yours does. The other set of photos(the yellowish orange ones--3 all together) seem to have only 3 veins total. The one with only 3 veins to the leaf was originally presented to me as indica. Can they both be indicas? There is plainly a difference in the number of leaflet veins... so maybe the proposed vaughanii is an indica--does this mean that indica is variable on many levels, or could I have possibly taken a photo of a hybrid??????

Secondly, I understand where Len is coming from; my indica took a beating, this winter and didn't think it was going to make it, but it's coming out of it. The local photos I have posted on this thread have given me hope on this species for my yard. I have a struggling Caryota obtusa that is gonna be dug up to make room for a pritchardia beccariana(if it's not performing, then find something that will).

As for the other species(bottle and spindle), they are extremely common around these parts and are nothing special. Many people who think "a palm is just a palm" have several in their yards. For this reason alone, I don't like or need them in my yard; they are common and I actually don't like the look of them--rather have a gaussia princeps than a bottle and I'd rather have a gaussia attentuata than a spindle(actually have both gaussias mentioned). Now, what's common for me may not be so for you all in Austrailia and Southern California. For example, Howea Forsteriana is pretty common in California(and many other places, for that matter) but it's definately not around South Florida, so I have a clump. If bottles and spindles are not common in So Cal, then I can see planting them. Why collect a palm that's not collectable? If I were in Len's shoes, I would get a bunch of Rhopalostylis, but I hear they are pretty common in those parts... we all wanna grow rare and healthy show pieces, because in the end, it makes us feel better about ourselves. Ayn Rand explained this concept well in her book, The Virtues of Selfishness.

Palmtalk is AWESOME :)

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