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greekpalm

Is This Climate Suitable For Cocos nucifera ?

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greekpalm

Cyprus has much warmer spring summer and fall compared to SoCal so that would help i guess.

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greekpalm

well maybe it wouldn't be the only country in the EU but it might be the only place (not country) on the Mediterranean sea.

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nick

Cyprus has much warmer spring summer and fall compared to SoCal so that would help i guess.

yes that's right, on the bottom a comparison for January since 2000 in C°, data from

http://www.tutiempo.net/en/Climate/Paphos_Airport/01-2011/176000.htm

http://www.tutiempo.net/en/Climate/Akrotiri/01-2011/176010.htm

http://www.tutiempo.net/en/Climate/San_Diego_Brown_Field_Municipal_Airport/01-2011/722904.htm

As you can see, more higher values on Top in San Diego (e.g.) but less at night.

The average of San Diego is only a bit higher as Paphos-Airport e.g.

If you are in town or in a protected area temperatures could be higher as stated.

post-5861-026369700 1306847295_thumb.jpg

Edited by nick

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Cristóbal

What is the soil you have there, how much rain in the winter and you have frost every winter ?

This of the soil is very important for if it is of clay you are to have problems with cool wet roots in the winter. I am not far south of san diego and i experiment with cocos nucifera here for about 12 years with succes. I am now very sure is for this reason most the cocos in southern california die. I dont think it is for the temperatures but for the wet cool clay soil.

Plant the cocos in sand. You need keep the soil always dry as you can in the winter. I think the temperatures are ok.

I attach fotos of end of december 2010 of my 4 year cocos in tijuana 15 kilometers from the ocean. I plant this in my work in sand 90% you can see the soil around by the coco is very clay. In the last foto you can see my friend and see now it is tall and soon to have the trunk.

post-285-023272600 1306851330_thumb.jpg

post-285-010273300 1306851344_thumb.jpg

post-285-053092900 1306851357_thumb.jpg

Edited by Cristóbal

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nick

What is the soil you have there, how much rain in the winter and you have frost every winter ?

our lime soil is a mixture of clay, stones and sand, drainage is o.k.

Thank you for the tip of Sand, no problem to refurbish if needed.

Rainfall is a little more than 400mm/year most of them in winter, for summer (6 months without rain) a irrigation-system is common in Cyprus.

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greekpalm

What is the soil you have there, how much rain in the winter and you have frost every winter ?

well i think frost is unheard of in southern Cyprus... but thats not the most important factor ...

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Bae72

What is the soil you have there, how much rain in the winter and you have frost every winter ?

This of the soil is very important for if it is of clay you are to have problems with cool wet roots in the winter. I am not far south of san diego and i experiment with cocos nucifera here for about 12 years with succes. I am now very sure is for this reason most the cocos in southern california die. I dont think it is for the temperatures but for the wet cool clay soil.

Plant the cocos in sand. You need keep the soil always dry as you can in the winter. I think the temperatures are ok.

I attach fotos of end of december 2010 of my 4 year cocos in tijuana 15 kilometers from the ocean. I plant this in my work in sand 90% you can see the soil around by the coco is very clay. In the last foto you can see my friend and see now it is tall and soon to have the trunk.

post-285-023272600 1306851330_thumb.jpg

post-285-010273300 1306851344_thumb.jpg

post-285-053092900 1306851357_thumb.jpg

Hola Cristobal. What type of sand are we talking here? Fine grain or coarse?

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Takil-Explorer

Well try it anyway. You never know...

Alexander

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Luisd

Coconut in the Mediterranean? yes, it´s possible, but only for some years...a few years ago I found a coconut growing in a private garden in Almunecar (coast of Granada, Spain) somewhat higher than Cristobal´s coconut.The variety was golden malayan dwarf. Never asked the owner, but a little more cold winter killed him.The weather looks some better than southern Andalucia, perhaps there are more possibilities.

I think there are many palm trees can be grown in a warm Mediterranean climate, some very exotic looking, I might not lose the time trying to grow a coconut, because in a colder winter than usual may die... but if you decide try, the golden malayan seems the best variety, and cultivate a few years the plant in the greenhouse before planting in the ground.

Luis

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sebasroch

cristobal you need to spray them to get more humidity o put a plastic cover on it to prevail the humidity

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Bae72

Coconut in the Mediterranean? yes, it´s possible, but only for some years...a few years ago I found a coconut growing in a private garden in Almunecar (coast of Granada, Spain) somewhat higher than Cristobal´s coconut.The variety was golden malayan dwarf. Never asked the owner, but a little more cold winter killed him.The weather looks some better than southern Andalucia, perhaps there are more possibilities.

I think there are many palm trees can be grown in a warm Mediterranean climate, some very exotic looking, I might not lose the time trying to grow a coconut, because in a colder winter than usual may die... but if you decide try, the golden malayan seems the best variety, and cultivate a few years the plant in the greenhouse before planting in the ground.

Luis

Almuñecar? Estuve en Andalucia haciendo turismo en 2000. Pasé por unas aldeas de la comunidad malagueña. Motril suena? y Almuñecar. Vi caña de azúcar creo. Ahora echo de menos España por haber leido esto. Vivi en Alquerías del niño perdido, un pueblo cerca de Castellón de la plana. Qué país! Vamos a los chiringuitos! :mrlooney:

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nick

Coconut in the Mediterranean? yes, it´s possible, but only for some years...a few years ago I found a coconut growing in a private garden in Almunecar (coast of Granada, Spain) somewhat higher than Cristobal´s coconut.The variety was golden malayan dwarf. Never asked the owner, but a little more cold winter killed him.The weather looks some better than southern Andalucia, perhaps there are more possibilities.

I think there are many palm trees can be grown in a warm Mediterranean climate, some very exotic looking, I might not lose the time trying to grow a coconut, because in a colder winter than usual may die... but if you decide try, the golden malayan seems the best variety, and cultivate a few years the plant in the greenhouse before planting in the ground.

Luis

very interesting, I like southern Spain and the climatic is very mild, too. There are only some determinations -

the january temperatures are nearly the same as ours, the humidity seems to be less and you have more anual precipitation (Malaga) maybe direction to Almeria it's getting dryer.

Why should you prefer "golden malayan", the same variety that died in Almunecar after some years?

post-5861-049758100 1306991875_thumb.jpg

post-5861-049359000 1306992120_thumb.jpg

Edited by nick

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greekpalm

very good question nick !

does anyone knows a site with the complete list of varieties of coconut palms and their specifications ? (dont know if there is such thread over here)

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nick

very good question nick !

does anyone knows a site with the complete list of varieties of coconut palms and their specifications ? (dont know if there is such thread over here)

a complete list would be difficult, there are too many and you have search bit by bit.

There is a good description, not with all varieties but with full statement of the facts: www.agroforestry.net/tti/Cocos-coconut.pdf

Otherwise this forum is needed. :winkie:

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greekpalm

thank you for the pdf !

if the data in the pdf are correct

(Mean annual temperature

21–30°C (70–86°F)

Mean maximum temperature of hottest month

28–37°C (81–99°F)

Mean minimum temperature of coldest month

4–12°C (39–54°F)

Minimum temperature tolerated

0°C (32°F)

then southern Cyprus is in the range of all of them in Limasol even the humidity comes very close to the minimum of 60%....

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sarasota alex

I personally would try anything anywhere (well within reason of course). If I lived in a warm Mediterranean place I would try a coconut.

I did look at the extended weather data for Cyprus, however, and here's what caught my eye.

If you take the period of Dec. 1 - Mar. 31 you have:

Paphos - Average of only 5 days over 21C. Average of 55 days with precipitation.

Limassol - Average of only 6 days over 21C. Average of 32 days with precipitation.

These numbers by themselves could be a coconut death sentence.

Also I found the .pdf on Coconuts to be great, but I think that the numbers listed represent extremes where coconuts could yield reliable fruit production. Coconuts can obviously survive drops below 0C and in Costa Rica I saw healthy Coconut palms up to about 1500m.

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nick

thank you for the pdf !

if the data in the pdf are correct

(Mean annual temperature

21–30°C (70–86°F)

Mean maximum temperature of hottest month

28–37°C (81–99°F)

Mean minimum temperature of coldest month

4–12°C (39–54°F)

Minimum temperature tolerated

0°C (32°F)

then southern Cyprus is in the range of all of them in Limasol even the humidity comes very close to the minimum of 60%....

Paper doesn’t blush. :winkie:

-Our mean annual temperature is a bit less than 20C° = something out of the range

-max hottest month: o.k.

-mean minimum: o.k.

-minimum tolerated: o.k.

-humidity: must be o.k., even in summer. The problem might be the winter with most of the annual rainfall in relation to the temperature and moisture of the soil.

o.k. I want to set up our garden and If there is an experimental corner left, no question, I will try it.

By the way, the first two points are unreached for Funchal/Madeira, were cocos n. grows successful. Port Port Elizabeth has less temperatures, too.

It depends of so many particulars, there is no other way than trying it.

Edited by nick

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Takil-Explorer

Well in Assam in N.E. India they get plenty coconuts. Mayby those variaties are hardier ones as they grow well outside the tropics.

Alexander

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bubba

I have always wondered if obtaining a mature Coconut Palm and transplanting in any of the fringe areas in the Mediterranean, California or places like Sydney, Australia would create a much greater likelihood of long term survival. Has this ever been attempted?

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Tyrone

I have always wondered if obtaining a mature Coconut Palm and transplanting in any of the fringe areas in the Mediterranean, California or places like Sydney, Australia would create a much greater likelihood of long term survival. Has this ever been attempted?

Don't know. Transplant shock may be an issue and negate any benefits.

Sydney is too cold for a coconut to survive. 16C avg max's in winter is just too cold without artificial heating, and the summers aren't consistently hot enough to pull it out of the winter low growth period. I think Mike in Port Macquarie (31.5S) has pretty much proved that his is almost the most southerly eastern states coconut in Oz (there are some further south of him but they are basically bonsai specimens that haven't put on much growth in 15 years). Mike had his flower a few years back.

Also many are saying that you need high humidity to grow a coconut. Well moderate humidity is all that is necessary. True desert climates may dessicate the leaves, but high equatorial humidity is not a requirement to grow a coconut. They can handle dry air provided they are irrigated in dry climates. Also I can agree that sand is absolutely essential to growing this beach dwelling palm. Given some warmth, coconuts are ultra tough palms.

Best regards

Tyrone

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Takil-Explorer

It seems roughtly between 30 degrees north and 30 degrees south you can grow them when the climate is mild enough. Durban gets them as well.

Alexander

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nick

Sydney is too cold for a coconut to survive. 16C avg max's in winter is just too cold without artificial heating, and the summers aren't consistently hot enough to pull it out of the winter low growth period. I think Mike in Port Macquarie (31.5S) has pretty much proved that his is almost the most southerly eastern states coconut in Oz (there are some further south of him but they are basically bonsai specimens that haven't put on much growth in 15 years). Mike had his flower a few years back.

long time ago, the most sothern coconut I saw in australia was in "Coffs Harbour" between Sydney and Brisbane, with a huge trunk growing beyond the rooftops. The temperatures there are lower than the requested ideal minimum http://www.weatherzone.com.au/climate/station.jsp?lt=site&lc=59040 , not much different to ours. But as you mentioned the soil seem to be essential.

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Wanderanwills

I agree with Tyrone, Sydney is to cold for coconuts, the only one I know is a malay gold dwarf growing in the Tropical Centre at the Royal Botanic Gardens Sydney.

Great to push them to their extremities if you can, always worth a try!

Regards

Stephen

Edited by Wanderanwills

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nick

Sydney is too cold for a coconut to survive. 16C avg max's in winter is just too cold without artificial heating, and the summers aren't consistently hot enough to pull it out of the winter low growth period. I think Mike in Port Macquarie (31.5S) has pretty much proved that his is almost the most southerly eastern states coconut in Oz (there are some further south of him but they are basically bonsai specimens that haven't put on much growth in 15 years). Mike had his flower a few years back.

long time ago, the most southern coconut I saw in australia was in "Coffs Harbour" between Sydney and Brisbane, with a huge trunk growing beyond the rooftops. The temperatures there are lower than the requested ideal minimum http://www.weatherzone.com.au/climate/station.jsp?lt=site&lc=59040 , not much different to ours. But as you mentioned the soil seem to be essential.

Edited by nick

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Tyrone

Coffs Harbour is north of Port Macquarie. Mike from Port Macquarie has a beauty in the ground that is tall and has flowered in the past.

Coffs Harbour is about 0.5C degree warmer than me in winter although the 7.5Cmin in winter is maybe a bit cooler than my part of Perth. Closer to the coast like Fremantle and it's definitely warmer than 7.5C min avg in winter-closer to 10C.

One thing that has a huge bearing on growing a coconut in marginal areas is the amount of direct winter sunlight. Gloomy cloudy winter environments are bad for the coconut even if the temps seem about right. What we measure when we quote temperature is air temperature. Ground temperature and sunlight intensity have a big impact on the coconut. You can have a gloomy 20C day and it will produce less soil warmth than a sunny 16C day out of the cold wind. That's because on a gloomy 20C day the soil surface temp will be 20C, but on a sunny 16C day out of the wind (ie protected spot) the soil temp may be in excess of 30C in the sun. This makes a huge difference to the coconut. If in winter you go days without seeing the direct sun, then you will have a hard time growing a coconut in a marginal climate. The sun makes all the difference.

Best regards

Tyrone

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nick

Hi Tyrone, you cut to the chase,

if high soil temperatures are needed, sun and black sand or stones on soil around the coco might be helpful, too. Otherwise a cover for dry soil is needed if the main precipitation is in wintertime. Not easy but the problem is solvable.

Edited by nick

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Tyrone

Hi Tyrone, you cut to the chase,

if high soil temperatures are needed, sun and black sand or stones on soil around the coco might be helpful, too. Otherwise a cover for dry soil is needed if the main precipitation is in wintertime. Not easy but the problem is solvable.

Yes. That's exactly what I do here. My coconut sits on a slight mound in pure Perth sand (beach sand that has had the lime leached out of it over about 1000000 years) with a cover of black plastic except for a large hole in the plastic where the coconut is and the black plastic is totally covered in large river pebbles of various colours. In winter over the mounded area directly around the coconut I put a cover of clear plastic which keeps the rain off the soil (it drains off the sides of the mound) but lets the sun into the river pebbles and heats them up in winter, keeping the roots warm and dry. I used to cover the whole plant in a tent of clear plastic, but it's way too big now, so it pops right out the top of it's tent now, but is covered on the sides (the north east side by clear plastic). The south east side is the brick wall of the house and the south west side is the side wall of my hothouse. In the top of the mound I've made a small crater around the trunk and this collects the irrigation water and prevents it running off the mound. In winter I fill the crater up with pebbles and make it higher around the trunk, so with the clear plastic ground cover in winter, everything naturally drains away from the trunk.

Best regards

Tyrone

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sebasroch

hi, what about lima in Peru?

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Tyrone

It's a sunny 19C day today, and I checked the coconut and it's sitting at 30C on the soil surface when the sun was shining on it.

Best regards

Tyrone

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Jastin

I know of a couple of guys here on the coast of California that are growing them. I dont know how they are doing it because the coast is cloudy a lot more than anywhere usually and the temps are not as hot. this winter it got to about 30 on the coast ( -1C ) and all he had was a shade cloth covering it. No damage, and no special treatment like plastic, sand, or stones used, just planted south facing next to his house.

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nick

It's a sunny 19C day today, and I checked the coconut and it's sitting at 30C on the soil surface when the sun was shining on it.

Best regards

Tyrone

Hi Tyrone,

fine weather and good conditions on the soil surface, too!

attached you can find a comparison in temperatures between

Port Macquarie/AUS (31°26′S) and

Limassol/Cyprus (34°40′N)

The conditions "on paper" are not so bad for us for planting a coco. :rolleyes: We have less precipitation (400mm) and much more sunshine a year (3.400h) and in winter for heating the soil :winkie:, so it could be the most northern planting coco.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limassol

http://www.weatherzone.com.au/climate/station.jsp?lt=site&lc=60139

Do you have a link to find more about the coconut in Port Macquarie, I looked for it, but couldn't find much information?

Thx, nick

post-5861-019831400 1307355374_thumb.jpg

Edited by nick

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greekpalm

nick we've seen that in theory it makes a good chance !!! when will we see some real action ?? rolleyes.gif

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Bae72

Hi Tyrone, you cut to the chase,

if high soil temperatures are needed, sun and black sand or stones on soil around the coco might be helpful, too. Otherwise a cover for dry soil is needed if the main precipitation is in wintertime. Not easy but the problem is solvable.

Yes. That's exactly what I do here. My coconut sits on a slight mound in pure Perth sand (beach sand that has had the lime leached out of it over about 1000000 years) with a cover of black plastic except for a large hole in the plastic where the coconut is and the black plastic is totally covered in large river pebbles of various colours. In winter over the mounded area directly around the coconut I put a cover of clear plastic which keeps the rain off the soil (it drains off the sides of the mound) but lets the sun into the river pebbles and heats them up in winter, keeping the roots warm and dry. I used to cover the whole plant in a tent of clear plastic, but it's way too big now, so it pops right out the top of it's tent now, but is covered on the sides (the north east side by clear plastic). The south east side is the brick wall of the house and the south west side is the side wall of my hothouse. In the top of the mound I've made a small crater around the trunk and this collects the irrigation water and prevents it running off the mound. In winter I fill the crater up with pebbles and make it higher around the trunk, so with the clear plastic ground cover in winter, everything naturally drains away from the trunk.

Best regards

Tyrone

Hi Tyrone, can you fill me in on what type of sand Perth sand is? Is it a coarse, fine or mixed sand? I think drainage is important so fine sand would seem to be the wrong way to go. Also, if you cover the black plastic with large river pebbles, won't that reduce the amount of solar radiation stored? The black absorbs radiation, but if it is obscurred completely by pebbles, then the pebbles will absorb or reflect the light. Have I understood what you've done correctly?

Thanks,

Brian.

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Tyrone

Hi Brian. There's all different types of Perth sand. They change depending on their time out of the ocean as the lime leaches out over time. Mine is the oldest called a Bassendean sand (probably called that after the suburb Bassendean where Rolf Harris grew up which is not far from here and it does have Bassendean sands) This is a grey lifeless sand of medium grade and pH around 6.5. The black plastic was not to absorb heat, it's to stop rainfall getting to the roots in winter. The pebbles on top have thermal mass and are generally of a dark colour, so they range from black brown to grey in colour. The trouble with using jet black as a heat absorber is that although they heat up quick, they also cool down quickly. If you use white they take ages to heat up but they actually hold the heat longer. I figured that somewhere in between would be better. The idea is to heat up as much mass as possible and by heat radiation it will emit heat back into the soil beneath it. The more mass the more heat stored and reemitted down into the ground. I've used about 300kg of pebbles in the area so it should store a good amount of heat.

In my area the critical times for the coldest air is just before sunrise. If I can keep the ground and air around it just 3C higher at this point, I'm way ahead. The extra peak heat in the day allows the coconut to spring into life and start photosynthesizing a bit, and the extra few degrees after sun down allow it to grow a little during winter.

My little set up with the plastic surround stays about 3-4C warmer on the coldest night (ie 1-2C air temp outside) but for some reason only holds around 2C above ambient when the mins are around 15C, so I don't really understand why that is. It just seems to work better the colder it gets.

Best regards

Tyrone

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Bae72

Hi Brian. There's all different types of Perth sand. They change depending on their time out of the ocean as the lime leaches out over time. Mine is the oldest called a Bassendean sand (probably called that after the suburb Bassendean where Rolf Harris grew up which is not far from here and it does have Bassendean sands) This is a grey lifeless sand of medium grade and pH around 6.5. The black plastic was not to absorb heat, it's to stop rainfall getting to the roots in winter. The pebbles on top have thermal mass and are generally of a dark colour, so they range from black brown to grey in colour. The trouble with using jet black as a heat absorber is that although they heat up quick, they also cool down quickly. If you use white they take ages to heat up but they actually hold the heat longer. I figured that somewhere in between would be better. The idea is to heat up as much mass as possible and by heat radiation it will emit heat back into the soil beneath it. The more mass the more heat stored and reemitted down into the ground. I've used about 300kg of pebbles in the area so it should store a good amount of heat.

In my area the critical times for the coldest air is just before sunrise. If I can keep the ground and air around it just 3C higher at this point, I'm way ahead. The extra peak heat in the day allows the coconut to spring into life and start photosynthesizing a bit, and the extra few degrees after sun down allow it to grow a little during winter.

My little set up with the plastic surround stays about 3-4C warmer on the coldest night (ie 1-2C air temp outside) but for some reason only holds around 2C above ambient when the mins are around 15C, so I don't really understand why that is. It just seems to work better the colder it gets.

Best regards

Tyrone

Thanks Tyrone, useful information. I've tried growing some dwarf cocos in river sand. This sand has lots of fine silt and small stuff with larger grains. I sieved away the smaller stuff because when it was there, the sand drained like clay. With large grains only it drained beautifully. The dwarfs died however. It wasn't because they'd used up the juice inside, as I cut open the nuts sometime after death and there was still meat and liquid. I put it down to a combination of over-loving (I had a pH meter that kept saying it was very acidic in the sand and so I piled on Dolomite lime), cool conditions in my previous greenhouse (just a windbreak) and the gloom we get here in winter.

It seems heat in the soil/sand and dryness when it's cool are the requirements. Or I could just move to Cairns. :winkie:

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Tyrone

Yes, some sand may look like pure sand but may actually have clay and silt in it. They'll drain terribly for a coconut. Spearwood sands (the next one closest to the coast from the Bassendean greys) are yellowish and have a small amount of clay in them along with iron, so the market gardeners prefer this sand. What you really need if you want to grow a coconut and want to make sure you have good sand is to get coarse washed river sand, the sort they put in potting mix. Potting mixes can't have any clay in their so they wash it away leaving the good stuff.

I too have killed many a coconut by too much love. Over fertilising was one way. :(

Still, success is paved with episodes of failure.

Best regards

Tyrone

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nick

Hi Tyrone,

thank you very much for your detailled plating tips and your experiences!

Please one (or two :winkie:)more word(s) to the soil.

We have mainly clay with stones, so how much is sufficient to change into sand and how deep?

Do you have pure sand to the tops of the coco roots or only at the top layer?

thx., nick

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Tyrone

Hi Nick,

I have 17m of sand before there is 7m of limestone and then the artesian basin beneath.

For you, I would excavate a large area of clay and consider some sort of drainage from the clay cup you will make, maybe a large pipe to a lower area than the planting area and then back filling with pure washed river sand. You definitely do not need standing water around the roots in winter as they will rot almost immediately. How deep, maybe 1m or even more and maybe 1m or more in diameter. Not easy to do in clay I know.

Best regards

Tyrone

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nick

Hi Tyrone, 1m³ that would be possible to manage.

As I told "greekpalm" I must redesign our garden first and have to wait for the planting season in winter.

(currently 29°C, 20C°low by night, humidity 80%)

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Tyrone

Hi Tyrone, 1m³ that would be possible to manage.

As I told "greekpalm" I must redesign our garden first and have to wait for the planting season in winter.

(currently 29°C, 20C°low by night, humidity 80%)

Plant a coconut in early spring, not winter. At least in early spring it has all of spring, summer and autumn to go before winter hits and it slows way down. Your weather at the moment sounds beautiful. :D

6-19C here at the moment. :(

Best regards

Tyrone

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