Hassles of Island Life

[Dave-Vero]

Zac, I don't know if you're taking advantage of North Carolina's outstanding state university system.  I bet they'd be happy to arrange for you to go somewhere abroad, albeit Hawaii isn't quite "abroad."  

UH has considerable advantages in that the state is very welcoming to East Asians, so it's a natural training ground for people who will work internationally.  

Hawaii's astounding native biota has attracted a number of outstanding biology faculty.  Most famously, years ago, Hampton Carson abandoned a very nice position at the University of Washington to be closer to his Hawaiian fruit flies.  

Reports from the surfing community tend to confirm the difficulties for white school kids and the general lack of problems for respectful adults.  By the way, in professional surfing, there is the USA, then there's Hawaii.

[bgl]

Just saw Garrin's post, and I'd just like to add & clarify one or two things. I said in Post #11 that if culture is important, forget about moving here. What I meant by that was that the amount of cultural activities in a small town like Hilo obviously can't be compared to what's available in a major metropolitan area on the mainland, so you have to "swift gears" here. Garrin is MUCH more involved in cultural activities than I am (I may go to the theatre a couple of times per year - I think Garrin is pretty much a regular), but I believe he would agree with me when I say that the key to enjoying culture here is to be much more "flexible" than one would be on the Mainland. You don't have but so many choices here, so whenever something culturally takes place, you participate. That's also a great way to get to know a lot of people, because you WILL see many of the same people.

And Zac,

Kathy makes some EXCELLENT points. Since botany is your field, I can't think of a better place to be than Hawaii, where there must be numerous opportunities, in private businesses and at various educational facilities.

And remember what she said about shyness as well....very well put!

Bo-Göran

[palmtreesforpleasure]

There is nothing wrong with island life

Look at how well Australians handle it

(OK, we know Wal is a bit suspect   )

regards

Colin

[Zac in NC]

Dave- I have taken advantage of NC's University system. I was in the botany program at NCSU and had to take some time due to some personal reasons( A major bout with depression and them my parents split up). I would like to start back but I don't think NCSU is the place for me any longer. I have learned about all the plants in the state (considering I have had an interest in Botany for well over 10 years now and I feel its not as challenging to me as I'd like it to be). Hawaii would be  new and different, and plus, it is tropical too. I hate winters.

Kathy- Thanks for the advice. I am considering UH Manoa. A friend of mine is also planning to go there and he is from Colorado. I do need to work on my shyness and I think starting over completely could help.

Zac

[pq_bob]

Earlier there was some discussion of the population of southern California.   Here are the population projections for 2005 that we use at work (broken down by County)

County              Population

---------              --------------

Los Angeles:     10,076,983

Orange:             3,019,738

San Bernadino:  1,945,169

Riverside:           1,919,596

Ventura:             815,666

-------------

Total for LA area:  17,777,162

San Diego County:  2,992,828

On another note, during a vacation a couple of years I was surprised at the amount of traffic on the island of Kaua'i on the east side between Kapa'a and Wailua.  The population is small, but the roads were small too.   We crawled along just like in southern California.   The traffic on the Big Island was great however.

[DoomsDave]

OOOOH!

This is getting exciting.  I'm taking in every word . . .

dave

[ariscott]

Gosh, all this population talk.... the whole Northern Territory is only 200,000 people.... :). We like it like that!!

Regards, Ari

[Dave-Vero]

Traffic between Kapa'a and Wailua on Kaua'i seems to be a permanent problem.  It's got to be the busiest road on the island, and only two lanes.  

The estimate of over 10,000,000 people for Los Angeles correlates with a recent news story on mass transit pointing out that the city developed when trolleys ran everywhere (just like Portland, Oregon--my house was on a street formerly serviced by trolley).  As a result, LA is claimed to be the densest American urban area.  It doesn't have Upper East Side-type density, but neither does it have the truly sprawling suburbs that typify eastern cities.  Including New York, which spreads all the way into Pennsylvania!

Thinking of islands, I just bought the ticket for my first visit to Taiwan.

[bgl]

Dave-Vero,

Yes, traffic on Kauai has been a problem for a long time. A small island and a lot of people on that side of the island, and traffic problems are inevitable. Like North Shore on Oa'hu when the surf's up! That's one common problem for all the Hawaiian islands: with a mountain in the middle of the island (OK, sometimes more than one mountain!), generally, it's not possible to build the kind of road network that exists on the mainland, so most traffic moves on roads that run parallel to the ocean.

A little bit more space here on the Big Island, but even so there are not that many options. From Hilo, most traffic going to the Kona side uses Highway 19, heading north out of Hilo along the Hamakua coast. If there's an accident on that road you can end up getting stuck for hours, and you never know exactly what's happening up ahead of you. One alternate route is the Saddle Road which goes up between Mauna Kea and Mauna Loa (up to about 6500 ft elevation), but it's a fairly rough road, and there are absolutely no facilities for about 40 miles, so it's not a good place to get stuck, for whatever reason...

But here in Lower Puna, traffic is not (yet!) a problem. It's a real experience to drive on Highway 137 (the so called "Red Road") along the coast - very little traffic and very scenic (many places look exactly like Samoa), with lots of rough lava rocks along the shore, rough surf and thousands of coconut palms!

Bo-Göran

[Dave-Vero]

Kapa'a seems to have room for a bit more roadway.  At least drivers seem to put up with it gracefully.  

When I was a kid, Puerto Rico had some remarkable cliffside roads.  I think most have been bypassed by now.  For better or worse, the island doesn't seem to have developed much of a tourism industry.  You'd think direct flights from Newark and Orlando to the beautiful Aguadilla area would've done the job.

[ghar41]

Ahhh...perceptions.  Each of us who have spent time on the islands have had unique experiences.  Some good, some not so good.

My first real memories of the big island are from the late 60's so the kinds of things that annoyed me then were things like "there's no place to go trick or treating, mom!"  It was pretty rural then, looking back.  Now the amenities on the Kona side are pretty extensive.  Find almost anything, except building materials.  Hilo side is catching up.

On the "hoale" question, again, I feel it is all about how you are percieved by others.  When my mother (caucasian of portuguese descent) first came to the states in the 50's, her first experiences were in St. Louis, MO.  When she arrived there, they thought she was Hispanic and treated her as such... until her deep tan faded!

Now when she goes back to the islands, she is at first a "mainlander.........." until she chews them out in "pidgin" and demands "Kamahaina rates!"  

[polihale]

I live on Kauai. I can't say much that hasn't already been said.

But since I've become a palm-o-phile, I've noticed that few people here cherish the diversity of palms. The palms I see everyday are about 85% Cocos nucifera, 10% Pritchardias, 3% mini Date Palms, and 2% everything else. Sure, you'll find some exotic species in some garden. But the typical palms in yards, nurseries and Big Box stores aren't very impressive.

I AM ENVIOUS when I see palm nurseries in Arizona, Texas, California selling 10-gallon, 20-gallon, 30-gallon palms of many different species. Large Bismarckias and Dactyliferas, for example, are unavailable here AT ANY PRICE and cannot be imported.

If you care, here's my Stupid Questions About Hawaii.

[polihale]

On a related note, I am (as far as I know) the only person on Kauai growing Yuccas and Xanthorrhoea johnsonii.

Come and see me in 50 years and I'll have some awesome specimens for sale!!!

[bgl]

Christopher,

I enjoyed your "Stupid questions...". And it's not just pot-smoking young people who say they're going to fly back to "the States". We hear that all the time, and the person can be 25 or 65. When it comes to ignorance, age is irrelevant!

Bo-Göran

[Zac in NC]

Yeah the flying back to the states cracked me up too. Thanks for sharing that Christopher.

Zac

[Walter John]

You want to see the stupid questions they ask about Australia. Makes those Hawaiian ones look sensible. Not sure whether it's ignorance or arrogance, combo really.

Will I be able to see kangaroos in the street?

Are there any ATMs (cash machines) in Australia?

Which direction is North in Australia?

What currency do they use in Australia, and is it the same in Tasmania.

Do you have Christmas in Australia?

etc etc

[Dave-Vero]

Need to check to see whether anyone's complained about illegal immigration from Puerto Rico.

[DoomsDave]

(Wal @ Jan. 06 2007,20:56)

QUOTE

You want to see the stupid questions they ask about Australia. Makes those Hawaiian ones look sensible. Not sure whether it's ignorance or arrogance, combo really.

Will I be able to see kangaroos in the street?

Are there any ATMs (cash machines) in Australia?

Which direction is North in Australia?

What currency do they use in Australia, and is it the same in Tasmania.

Do you have Christmas in Australia?

etc etc

Well?

Humbly, Namaste, or, well ole buddy, jus' say . . .

dave

[Walter John]

spit it out Dave, I'll be good.

[palmtreesforpleasure]

When travelling in Europe, some north Americans are amazed  at how well we speak English, they think Australians speak Australian not a dialect of English.

Then of course there is those who think Australia is Austria.  The funnist thing we saw in Austria was a sign i(n quite a few places) saying there is no Kangaroo's in Austria.

An Austrian store keeper who lived in Australia for 20 years said he gets asked all the time by some mainlanders in the US where are the kangaroos

regards

colin

[bgl]

Colin,

That's pretty funny! And what's even funnier, I think, is how these threads tend to take on a life of their own. From talking about the potential hassles of island life, we're now on the topic of kangaroos in Austria!! And I'm not saying that to be criticial - that's truly hilarious!!

Bo-Göran

[Dave-Vero]

There must be some Slovenians living in Tasmania, which is to Australia as Slovenia is to Austria.  And New Zealand is rather like Slovakia.  

Then there was the German tourist who recently intended to go to Sydney.  He somehow went through Portland, Oregon and ended up in Sidney, Montana.

[DoomsDave]

(Dave-Vero @ Jan. 07 2007,04:43)

QUOTE

There must be some Slovenians living in Tasmania, which is to Australia as Slovenia is to Austria.  And New Zealand is rather like Slovakia.  

Then there was the German tourist who recently intended to go to Sydney.  He somehow went through Portland, Oregon and ended up in Sidney, Montana.

Reminds me of the guy who wanted to go to Oakland, California, but ended up in Auckland New Zealand!

Everyone had a good howl over that one . . .

dave

[DoomsDave]

(Wal @ Jan. 07 2007,02:27)

QUOTE

spit it out Dave, I'll be good.

Sorry, Wal, don't know what got into me.

[amazondk]

I used to make a habit of hanging world maps upside down, who says North is UP?  In fact I think I remember seeing an Australian map like that.  Years ago I was talking to a tour guide I knew in Rio de Janeiro.  He told me a story of being with a group of Americans showing them the city, I think they were up at Corcorvado the Christ statue overlooking the city. One of the women turned to him and said," Brazil is such a beautiful Island".  Now I guess if you consider that South America is surrounded by water on all sides, except the isthmus of Panama it could be considered almost an island.  In 1993 I was living in Sao Paulo and took a trip up to Montana to see my parents.  While there I went to a friend of mines 40th birthday party.  In fact she had just returned to Montana after living many years in Hawaii.  The people at the party were mostly folks that I knew from High School and had stayed living in Great Falls, Montana since then.  When one of them asked where I was living I replied Sao Paulo, Brazil.  The guy looked at me seriously and asked me "Did you drive up?".  I guess I could have, but it sure would have made my vacation long.  Here in Manaus it is a bit like living on an island.  The only road that goes anywhere goes to Venezuela.  We are 2,900 Kms by air from Sao Paulo or Rio.  The only road connecting the city to the rest of the country has been closed now for 20 years and is overgrown with forest.  They are saying that it will be fixed, but I don't count on it.  Christopher, I liked your Hawaii site.  in the late 70's I worked on the ramp at SFO airport loading planes for Western Airlines (The Only Way to Fly).  I always liked to crack open the pit doors on the DC-10 from Hawaii,  it always had a smell of pineapples.  It was a nice break from the cold wind blowing across the airport from South San Francisco.

dk

[JEFF IN MODESTO]

(bgl @ Jan. 04 2007,20:16)

QUOTE

BTW, just read in the local newspaper today, that the median price for a one family house on Oa'hu in 2006 was $630,000. Didn't give any info for the Big Island. The median price here on the Hilo side is obviously WAY below Oa'hu!

BGL... I saw that stat for Oahu house prices...600k is still not too bad compared to a house in the Bayarea or LA

Hawaii has comparatively few traditional houses for sale... When you include condo sales... The Average price for a 3 bedroom " Home " drops to $460,000 on oahu.... Even cheaper on the Ewa Side or on neighbor islands... I saw some decent 2 story houses on the beach ( in Ewa Beach) for $400,000. The same price for a house in California. would be in the 1 to 2 MILLION dollar range for a fixer upper.

Jeff

[Tropica]

(palmsforpleasure @ Jan. 07 2007,02:57)

QUOTE

...no Kangaroo's in Austria

There ARE kangaroos in Austria.

Thanks for all the great info guys.  Now if I could just find a job in Hawaii...

Two related questions:

Is it worth it to have all your stuff shipped over?

With undeveloped lots, how much difficulty and additional expense is there in building a house?

[bgl]

John,

Shipping stuff to Hawaii: that really depends on a number of things. First of all, from where? If you are in Georgia, I'm sure that's more expensive than shipping from SoCal for instance. What we ended up doing when we moved from the San Diego area to the Big Island was a VERY extensive inventory/house cleaning of everything we owned. Not a bad thing, because most of us never get around to this if we stay put in the same house for many years! We ended up with three major categories:

1) throw away stuff - simply threw it away

2) give away stuff - gave away lots of stuff to friends and family (including lots of furniture and a piano!). Of course, if you're into garage sales, then have a few of those. We didn't want to be bothered.

3) stuff you want to keep & ship.

The split between #2 and #3 for us was pretty much 50-50. We gave away some furniture that we didn't think would fit in our new Hawaiian home, then simply bought new furniture after we had built our house. The furniture that we shipped was primarily furniture that had some sentimental value. For instance I bought a pine table in Sweden that's solid and 3 inches thick back in 1972, plus 6 chairs, so that's a good example of something of sentimental value. Shipping is pretty expensive so if it's an older piece of furniture that you're not all that attached to, better get rid of it, and replace it with something new once you get here. Probably a little bit more expensive, but then you end up with all new stuff also!!

Your second question; undeveloped lots. With a one acre lot, you can probably expect to spend $5,000-$7,000 in bulldozing expense AND bringing in some red cinder for some basic driveways/roads, assuming there are no major problems with the lot (big holes, or steep slopes for instance). If there are a lot of big trees you may end up spending a little bit more. If you're going to spend $200,000 to $300,000 building a house, the lot-clearing expense is really minimal in the big scheme of things.

Bo-Göran

[bgl]

Jeff,

Yes, I know, house prices in the Bay Area and LA are ridiculuous. Still, for the most part Oa'hu is pretty pricey, and as a general rule you get VERY little land. A number of people move from Oa'hu to the Big Island, simply because they can afford to buy a house here.

Bo-Göran

[DoomsDave]

I remember reading ads for realestate in the 1970s, which made a big deal that the land was fee simple.

A problem on Oahu is, if my memory serves, the land oligopoly of the Bishop Estate, which owned a  lot of land, and leased it to people who owned the houses.  WHen your lease was up, you faced rising rates.

However, there may have been a law passed that forced the BE to sell some of that, which was upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court back in the 1980s.

Anyone know anything about that?

dave

[SunnyFl]

(Jeff Searle @ Jan. 04 2007,17:43)

QUOTE

I think I'm correct when saying, just about anywhere we live, there's going to be advantages and disadvantages to where you are. Personally for me, I think I live in a great climate because I never liked the cold weather and prefer it to be hot always. This is where I was born and raised. I have never lived anywhere else. But, then there are other reasons for keeping me here. One, I have all my family here, and thats extreamly important. Two, my business is here, just can't pick up and move it after 25 years. So my roots are very deep. I have seen lots of changes in South Florida, and most are not good. Lots of people moving in.

    Now, as I get older and maybe sell of my property or pass the nursery down to our children, I think there's a good possibility of having another house somewhere else. Maybe in Hawaii because of the tropical climate, or maybe up in the mountains somewhere in Tennessee.It's just too early to say. And of course if I had a ton of money, I would be doing this already.

    I know I could never live in the middle of a large city like New York or LA. Just can't.

Jeff

Jeff....?

Tennessee?  It's cold up there, and the hills.....

And then there are the short days with no palms or tropicals, just glum woods and a sun that doesn't shine as bright.

I can't imagine you living apart from your palms or S. Florida at all.  I used to live there many years ago and often wish I still did.  Yes, many changes have happened and I agree, not good.  But still, you have a wonderful corner of it.

[palmtreesforpleasure]

Tasmania, which is to Australia as Slovenia is to Austria

The Island of Tasmania is a state of Australia

the state of Hawaii, is a state of the USA and  

it seems some people have the same misunderstanding of the connection.

Then of course some overseas people (to us) think New Zealand is a state of Australia. (If you wish to stir a New Zealander, say , isn't New Zealand Australia's most eastern state. if the Kiwi's is a quick wit, he will reply will be Australia is the New Zealands West island)

It appears Geography class's in schools seems not have the importance ithey used to have

After reading this thread, there is many similarities on the island of the Australian mainland in regards

to the state of Tasmania to many non Australians.

Of those who are thinking of moving to the islands

we Australians can recommend one a lttle bit further to the SW :

regards

colin

PS maybe we could start with this map for the Geography class's

[palmtreesforpleasure]

Tasmania, which is to Australia as Slovenia is to Austria

The Island of Tasmania is a state of Australia

the state of Hawaii, is a state of the USA and  

it seems some people have the same misunderstanding of the connection.

Then of course some overseas people (to us) think New Zealand is a state of Australia. (If you wish to stir a New Zealander, say , isn't New Zealand Australia's most eastern state. if the Kiwi's is a quick wit, he will reply will be Australia is the New Zealands West island)

It appears Geography class's in schools seems not have the importance they used to have

After reading this thread, there is many similarities on the island of the Australian mainland in regards

to the state of Tasmania to many non Australians.

Of those who are thinking of moving to the islands

we Australians can recommend one a lttle bit further to the SW :

regards

colin

PS maybe we could start with this map for the Geography class's

[SunnyFl]

It appears Geography class's in schools seems not have the importance ithey used to have

It sure would.  But the problem isn't just Americans who travel abroad.

A woman who moved to New Mexico had relatives who were sad that she was leaving the country.  !!

Back a few years ago, when Condoleeza Rice was meeting Latin Americans at the trade conference in Miami, one expressed surprise that she was leaving early.  She explained, "I have to get back to the U.S."

Oh.

[Zac in NC]

I wonder if Leezer was speaking literally or figuratively then. Its like South Texas if I understand Miami. Spanish os more widely spoken than English in places. Not trying to move this into a debate about immigration. Just stating what I believe to be facts.

Zac

I also agree that geography wasn't taught to me as well as it could have and I was in a decent school system. Most of the geography I know was either taught to me by my parents, or I taught myself looking at books and through the study of plants.

Z

[bgl]

Colin,

Great map! The problem of course is that one needs to be fairly familiar with the map in the first place in order to be able to make sense of it! It least in the northern hemisphere...

Dave,

Bishop Estate, which has officially changed its name to Kamehameha Schools is the largest private land owner in Hawaii. They own about 400,000 acres in the state of HI, and 297,000 acres just here on the Big Island. The land next to our 5 acre parcel (that we own) is owned by KS and we lease it from them.

When you acquire land in Hawaii, you either buy it outright, which is referred to as Fee Simple (FS), or as a Leasehold (LH). FS is the most common here on the Big Island.

There were a number of cases on Oa'hu with (I believe) primarily condominiums that had been built on land owned by KS and they were typically on 30 year leaseholds. When those leases expired in the 1990s many of the tenants wanted to be able to buy the land from KS. Needless to say, the initial lease payments were based on cheap real estate prices of the 1960s, and by the time we hit the 1990s those prices had changed quite a bit, and I believe the main controversy was simply because the tenants & condominium owners wanted to pay prices for the land that was based on their lease payments, i.e. 1960 prices, while KS obviously wanted to sell the land for what it was worth at that time (in the 1990s). I don't know exactly how many of these controversies were resolved, but I do recall that KS was forced to sell. At what price, I don't know.

A little bit of background: Princess Bernice Pauahi Bishop (a Hawaiian princess, but married to an American businessman) set up the Bishop Estate as a trust in her will. That was in the 1880s. The trust exists for the purpose of educating children with a preference for children of Hawaiian descent (the blood percentage is not important). They recently (=last 5 years) built a campus in Kea'au, about 20 miles north of us, and 8 miles SW of Hilo, that would put 99% of universities to shame. It's an amazing campus, and the education is excellent. Children from the entire island attend that school, serving K-12.

The assets of KS is right around $7 Billion (wth a 'B'!), and their revenue comes from leasing out the land they own. It's the richest private school in the entire country.

Bo-Göran

[Dave-Vero]

Yes, I know Tasmania's an Australian state.  I read Hughes' "The Fatal Shore" back when it came out.  Not to mention Tim Flannery on disappearing fauna.  And White on disappeared flora.  Very aware that the pre-English population didn't eat shellfish (perhaps wary of poisoning) and that Tasmania served as a prison within a prison.  

Sorry to insult Tasmanians.

And by the way, automobile licence plates from New Mexico, for many years, said "USA" just to make it clear what country they're in.  

Then there's

California University of Pennsylvania (the erstwhile California State College)

Indiana University of Pennsylvania

[ghar41]

(bgl @ Jan. 06 2007,19:34)

QUOTE

Christopher,

I enjoyed your "Stupid questions...". And it's not just pot-smoking young people who say they're going to fly back to "the States". We hear that all the time, and the person can be 25 or 65. When it comes to ignorance, age is irrelevant!

Bo-Göran

Great list of "stupid questions..."    

oooooo good thing I posted that my mother first flew to the states in the 50's, when Hawaii was still a territory...    

[Zac in NC]

Dave- I read Flannery's Throwim Way Leg and mentioned it in the Tropical fruit ID thread. I enjoyed reading about his travels in PNG.

Zac

[Dave-Vero]

Zac, Flannery's "The Future Eaters" is interesting.  I think his views on almost everything are controversial, but based on his excellent book on the mammal history of North America, I pretty strongly suspect he's mostly right.