Zone 7 Pinnate Leaf Palms cold hardness ranking

[palmtreeguy]

I want to get everybody's own educated option (or educated guess) on cold hardness ranking (in their own best habitat) on established Pinnate Leaf Palms palms that can live well longterm and unprotected in zone 7: -17.7 to -12.2 Celsius or (0 to 10F). With some protection maybe needed every 30 to 50 years.

I assume the only contenders are Jubaea and Butia. The two temperature numbers I'm concerned about are average leaf tip burn starting temperature and temperature of almost total defoliation but spear still healthy).

Then the same thing for Cocoid Palm Hybrids right below (that can live well longterm and unprotected in zone 7: -17.7 to -12.2 Celsius or (0 to 10F). With some protection maybe needed every 30 to 50 years).

I'm in cold hardness zone 7 (southeast US): -17.7 to -12.2 Celsius or (0 to 10F) Each winter here it gets down to at least -12C (10F) for a few hours one or two nights a year. But many years it gets down to the -15C to -1C (5 to 8F) range for a few hours one or two nights a year (This year was cold, it got down to -14.7C (5.6F)). Every 30 years or so it can get at or below -18C (0F) for a few hours one or two nights a year. I would like my palm to survive down to near -18C (0F) fairly unprotected and still come back from the spear. At or Below -18C (0F) I will protect it well from the cold. (Remember this is after it is large and established, I will protected it well for several years when young). It's hot and humid in the summer here, average temperature between 29 and 38C (85 and 100F) So I'm trying to get an average specific low temperature ranking of the best cold hardy palms like I described above I'm thinking of getting a BxJ, JxB or just the best type of Butia palm:

So for a example (these are large established palms only): (NAME (new name system)), (average leaf tip burn start temp.), then (average temperature of almost total defoliation but spear still healthy) it's fine in either in C or F or both:

I'm not for sure, this is just an example below: (these are large established palms only):

1. Jubaea chilensis, -12C?, -18C?

2. Butia catarinensis, -12C?, -18C?

3. Butia eriospatha, -10C?, -16C?

4. Butia odorata, -9C?, -15C?

5. Butia yatay, -9C?, -15C?

6. Butia microspadix, -8C?, -14C?

7.______

8.______

9.______

----------------------

Then Zone 7 Cocoid Palm Hybrids separate:

Again, I'm not for sure, this is just an example below: (these are large established palms only):

1. Jubaea chilensis x Butia catarinensis, -16C?, -21C?

2. Butia catarinensis x Jubaea chilensis -15C?, -20.5C?

3. Jubaea chilensis x Butia eriospatha -14C?, -20C?

4. Butia eriospatha x Jubaea chilensis -13C?, -19.5C?

5. Jubaea chilensis x Butia odorata -13C?, -19.5C?

6. Butia odorata x Jubaea chilensis, -12C?, -18.5C?

7. Butia eriospatha x Butia microspadix -11C?, -17C?

8._____

9._____

You can put a question mark (?) by temperatures your not sure about like I did above.

There maybe more palms that are better???

So you all can copy the above list and rearrange in any other order you believe is right, change the temperature, and add any more palms or hybrids that will do well in zone 7 longterm.

Any help would be very appreciated.

[mjff]

I want to get everybody's own educated option (or educated guess) on cold hardness ranking (in their own best habitat) on established Pinnate Leaf Palms palms that can live well longterm and unprotected in zone 7: -17.7 to -12.2 Celsius or (0 to 10F). With some protection maybe needed every 30 to 50 years.

I assume the only contenders are Jubaea and Butia. The two temperature numbers I'm concerned about are average leaf tip burn starting temperature and temperature of almost total defoliation but spear still healthy).

Then the same thing for Cocoid Palm Hybrids right below (that can live well longterm and unprotected in zone 7: -17.7 to -12.2 Celsius or (0 to 10F). With some protection maybe needed every 30 to 50 years).

I'm in cold hardness zone 7 (southeast US): -17.7 to -12.2 Celsius or (0 to 10F) Each winter here it gets down to at least -12C (10F) for a few hours one or two nights a year. But many years it gets down to the -15C to -1C (5 to 8F) range for a few hours one or two nights a year (This year was cold, it got down to -14.7C (5.6F)). Every 30 years or so it can get at or below -18C (0F) for a few hours one or two nights a year. I would like my palm to survive down to near -18C (0F) fairly unprotected and still come back from the spear. At or Below -18C (0F) I will protect it well from the cold. (Remember this is after it is large and established, I will protected it well for several years when young). It's hot and humid in the summer here, average temperature between 29 and 38C (85 and 100F) So I'm trying to get an average specific low temperature ranking of the best cold hardy palms like I described above I'm thinking of getting a BxJ, JxB or just the best type of Butia palm:

So for a example (these are large established palms only): (NAME (new name system)), (average leaf tip burn start temp.), then (average temperature of almost total defoliation but spear still healthy) it's fine in either in C or F or both:

I'm not for sure, this is just an example below: (these are large established palms only):

1. Jubaea chilensis, -12C?, -18C?

2. Butia catarinensis, -12C?, -18C?

3. Butia eriospatha, -10C?, -16C?

4. Butia odorata, -9C?, -15C?

5. Butia yatay, -9C?, -15C?

6. Butia microspadix, -8C?, -14C?

7.______

8.______

9.______

----------------------

Then Zone 7 Cocoid Palm Hybrids separate:

Again, I'm not for sure, this is just an example below: (these are large established palms only):

1. Jubaea chilensis x Butia catarinensis, -16C?, -21C?

2. Butia catarinensis x Jubaea chilensis -15C?, -20.5C?

3. Jubaea chilensis x Butia eriospatha -14C?, -20C?

4. Butia eriospatha x Jubaea chilensis -13C?, -19.5C?

5. Jubaea chilensis x Butia odorata -13C?, -19.5C?

6. Butia odorata x Jubaea chilensis, -12C?, -18.5C?

7. Butia eriospatha x Butia microspadix -11C?, -17C?

8._____

9._____

You can put a question mark (?) by temperatures your not sure about like I did above.

There maybe more palms that are better???

So you all can copy the above list and rearrange in any other order you believe is right, change the temperature, and add any more palms or hybrids that will do well in zone 7 longterm.

Any help would be very appreciated.

Everything on your list will be completely defoliated every year without serious protection from both cold and moisture, and killed within a couple of years. My low here this winter was 13F so far, and I have most of the palms on your list. Between the cold and freezing precipitation most are completely or partially defoliated, and the damage gets worse by the day. In a week I won't be surprised if there isn't a live frond on any of them. I expect most to survive, but if we do it again next year... You don't say exactly where you are, but most of the SE experiences rain as a front comes through that changes over to sleet/snow, and all that frozen moisture down in the crown is very damaging even at temperatures much higher than you will see. 13F normally causes no damage in my area because we rarely get rain right before a severe freeze, but this year we got unlucky. There are no pinnate palms for Zone 7, and a very short list of palmate palms.

[palmtreeguy]

Everything on your list will be completely defoliated every year without serious protection from both cold and moisture, and killed within a couple of years. My low here this winter was 13F so far, and I have most of the palms on your list. Between the cold and freezing precipitation most are completely or partially defoliated, and the damage gets worse by the day. In a week I won't be surprised if there isn't a live frond on any of them. I expect most to survive, but if we do it again next year... You don't say exactly where you are, but most of the SE experiences rain as a front comes through that changes over to sleet/snow, and all that frozen moisture down in the crown is very damaging even at temperatures much higher than you will see. 13F normally causes no damage in my area because we rarely get rain right before a severe freeze, but this year we got unlucky. There are no pinnate palms for Zone 7, and a very short list of palmate palms.

Thanks, I'm in AL. I know of a Jelly palm surviving in Atlanta, GA when it got down to -8F (-22C) in 1985, (of course the palm was defoliated and the trunk was split a little and narrowed that year, but it still lives today), so that gives me a little hope. I think there maybe a few other that survived this as well.

It would be very neat to cross the most southern and coldest location wild Butia with the most southern and coldest location wild Jubaea chilensis in South America, then there might be a super BxJ or JxB fine for zone 7 that will resist both cold and heat/humidity.

.

Edited February 19, 2011 by palmtreeguy

[kahili]

I second what Mjff says. I have several Butias that are of various ages (5 yrs being the oldest), but I would cover/protect all of them at 8-10 degrees. If you don't plan on protecting them (wrapping heavily and waterproofing in times of sleet etc) during those cold times...forget it. The older and more established palms can take/recover from colder weather better than young ones, but you have to get them to that point, and 8 degrees is pretty cold-even for a more established butia.

[Rusty on Pine Is.]

As Martin has shown, a palms survivability is affect by a number of different factors.....and so too is it's recovery rate.

A slow growing palm is going to recover at a slower rate due to the amount of leaves it can produce.

A palm (any plant for that matter) has to use stored carbohydrate in order to make a leaf, and then use the new leaves to make new carbohydrate so it can grow and replace the energy that the defoliation took away.

And , although palms in general are relatively inefficient at storing energy, a larger palm will naturally have more energy storage than a small one.

So you can see that being content letting it die back to the spear is only going to give you a very short term plant.

Look at it this way... a tree has a carbohydrate bank account. Defoliation is a debt, and for the tree to survive that debt MUST be re-payed...

...and it might be able to do that one, maybe two, and rarely three consecutive years depending on it's growth rate.....but a slow growing palm will be compost by this time.

Rusty

[Richard Booth]

Hi Palmtreeguy, i have taken bad (possibly terminal) damage to Butia catarinensis, Butia eriospatha, Butia odorata (this is the old capitata, right) this winter at -10°C on the coldest night and around a week of constant cold weather. So i guess this goes along with other's comments on here.

Jubaea are known to be a little bit more hardy, but by how much i don't know as i don't have one planted out, but apparently some mature (imported) specimens survived -18°C this winter over here in the UK! http://www.hardytropicals.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5487

[fdrc65]

The climate in Europe is different from the states, I'm at 44' N in Italy and last winter was one of the colder of the last 25 years, many days of snow during all the winter and some days at -10' C by night and -3'C bye day, my 32 y.o. Jubaea was damaged to the newest leaves only, during the summer the plant pushed 4 new beautiful leaves .This year we had again -10 'C for 4 days in a row, with a little snow but no damage at all on the jubaeaLast winter I lost a 10 yol butia capitata

[climate change virginia]

On 2/18/2011 at 4:36 PM, palmtreeguy said:

I want to get everybody's own educated option (or educated guess) on cold hardness ranking (in their own best habitat) on established Pinnate Leaf Palms palms that can live well longterm and unprotected in zone 7: -17.7 to -12.2 Celsius or (0 to 10F). With some protection maybe needed every 30 to 50 years.

 

I assume the only contenders are Jubaea and Butia. The two temperature numbers I'm concerned about are average leaf tip burn starting temperature and temperature of almost total defoliation but spear still healthy).

Then the same thing for Cocoid Palm Hybrids right below (that can live well longterm and unprotected in zone 7: -17.7 to -12.2 Celsius or (0 to 10F). With some protection maybe needed every 30 to 50 years).

 

I'm in cold hardness zone 7 (southeast US): -17.7 to -12.2 Celsius or (0 to 10F) Each winter here it gets down to at least -12C (10F) for a few hours one or two nights a year. But many years it gets down to the -15C to -1C (5 to 8F) range for a few hours one or two nights a year (This year was cold, it got down to -14.7C (5.6F)). Every 30 years or so it can get at or below -18C (0F) for a few hours one or two nights a year. I would like my palm to survive down to near -18C (0F) fairly unprotected and still come back from the spear. At or Below -18C (0F) I will protect it well from the cold. (Remember this is after it is large and established, I will protected it well for several years when young). It's hot and humid in the summer here, average temperature between 29 and 38C (85 and 100F) So I'm trying to get an average specific low temperature ranking of the best cold hardy palms like I described above I'm thinking of getting a BxJ, JxB or just the best type of Butia palm:

 

So for a example (these are large established palms only): (NAME (new name system)), (average leaf tip burn start temp.), then (average temperature of almost total defoliation but spear still healthy) it's fine in either in C or F or both:

I'm not for sure, this is just an example below: (these are large established palms only):

1. Jubaea chilensis, -12C?, -18C?

2. Butia catarinensis, -12C?, -18C?

3. Butia eriospatha, -10C?, -16C?

4. Butia odorata, -9C?, -15C?

5. Butia yatay, -9C?, -15C?

6. Butia microspadix, -8C?, -14C?

7.______

8.______

9.______

 

----------------------

Then Zone 7 Cocoid Palm Hybrids separate:

Again, I'm not for sure, this is just an example below: (these are large established palms only):

1. Jubaea chilensis x Butia catarinensis, -16C?, -21C?

2. Butia catarinensis x Jubaea chilensis -15C?, -20.5C?

3. Jubaea chilensis x Butia eriospatha -14C?, -20C?

4. Butia eriospatha x Jubaea chilensis -13C?, -19.5C?

5. Jubaea chilensis x Butia odorata -13C?, -19.5C?

6. Butia odorata x Jubaea chilensis, -12C?, -18.5C?

7. Butia eriospatha x Butia microspadix -11C?, -17C?

8._____

9._____

 

You can put a question mark (?) by temperatures your not sure about like I did above.

There maybe more palms that are better???

So you all can copy the above list and rearrange in any other order you believe is right, change the temperature, and add any more palms or hybrids that will do well in zone 7 longterm.

 

Any help would be very appreciated.

Im looking for one that can survive a VERY cold 8a

[Chester B]

Possibly Chaemadorea radicalis in a protected spot and be prepared to protect if some severe cold shows up.  

[Flow]

Jubaea chilensis is by far the coldhardiest pinnate palm but I would not let it see anything below -8C for an extended period of time, let alone the other palms on your list.

[PalmatierMeg]

Even if a Jubaea could survive a VA winter, the humid, rainy, sweltering summer would end its misery.