Palm Gold?

[PalmGuyWC]

There may be gold in the California hills, but the biggest gold mine might be growing in your own garden.

A number of years ago San Francisco set aside 3 million dollars to purchase Pheonix canariensis to beautify upper Market Street and the Embarcadero.  The effect has been stunning, but it caused quite a controversy at the time.  Because of "social issues" in San Francisco, many thought the money could be put to better use.  Those people were wrong, as the areas where the palms were planted were becoming seedy and run down.  With the addition of the palms and some of the old antique street lights that had been stored for years in a warehouse, the areas have sprouted new businesses, new condos and apartments, botique shops, restaurants, and have become a tourist attraction. Of course vintage street cars running up and down Market Street have helped too.

At the same time new commercial buildings were being built all over Calif. and what did they want to landscape with?  Palms, of course. Many of these  large, speciman plams could only be found growing in the countryside on old farmsteads and many rural residents were willing to give the palms away, because they were tired of cleaning up the "mess" below them. With the great demand for P. canariensis, the supply became limited and soon people  suddenly realized these were a valueable commodity, and then the price went up.  Landscapers want a grouping of palms to be a uniform size, so this made the selection even more limited.

As the supply of P. canariensis became limited, landscapers turned to P. dactylifera which were plentifull in the Coachella Valley in S. Calif. as realestate developments swollowed up the date groves.  As hotels began to sprout up around San Francisco airport which is on the Bay, I had a landscaper call me and ask for a recomendation for palms around the hotel.  I recommended P. canariensis.  She said, "Oh, we can't afford those as they are $4000 apiece, and P. dactylifera are only $400"...so they planted the dactyliferas right on the cool Bay...and they still look stressed and ratty. P. dactylifera looks great planted inland with the summer heat, but not close to the Bay. This was many years ago, so I wonder what a speciman Phoenix goes for these days?

The next quest was for Jubaea's which are much more limited.  There was some "outfit" in the foothills in N. Calif that was scouring the state for Jubaeas to plant at their high altitude winery.  I guess Jubaeas were the only dependable palm that would grow in an area that sometimes gets snow.  They wanted to make a dramatic effect on their extensive grounds and they seemed to have plenty of money.  This drove up the price of Jubaeas dramatically, and the last I heard, they are selling for $1000 a linear foot.  If that's the case, I have about 100 K of Jubaeas growing in my garden.

Then there are speciman Chamaehrops, and Phoenix reclinata that are going for very high prices, and some of the extreamly high prices for some of the rare vearigated Rhapis coming out of Japan.  With the exception of the Rhapis, the palms I've mention are common palms.

I know many of you have very rare palms from Madagascar and other places that you wouldn't part with for any price, but from a commercial stand point, what is the most expensive palm you know of?

Dick

[BobbyinNY]

Dick,

I was in Las Vegas 2 years ago and couldn't BELIEVE how much they were getting for P. Canariensis. I have (2) of them that are about 13ft tall now and I'm told that they're worth somewhere in the neighborhood of $1000.00 each... I can't believe it....  I paid $750 3 years ago for both of them.

[PalmGuyWC]

Bobby,

I didn't mention Las Vegas, but that's an entirely different situation.  Money seems to be no object there, and I suppose they have helped in driving up the price of speciman palms on the west coast, but they are peanuts compaired to the size of California and the developmet here.  Don't forget California is the 7th largest economy on earth and it's booming, and some kinds of  palms grow in most places in the state.

However, it's sure nice to walk down Las Vagas Blvd. and enjoy their almost instant landscape of palms in the past few years.  It boggles the mind. It's excessive, dramatic, but I love it!

Dick

[BobbyinNY]

However, it's sure nice to walk down Las Vagas Blvd. and enjoy their almost instant landscape of palms in the past few years.  It boggles the mind. It's excessive, dramatic, but I love it!

Yeah, there's been alot of disagreement on this subject, but I'm just curious to know how you like the pruning job they did on those P. Canariensis to make them look like big pineapples.... Some people love it - some hate it.. I think it looks kinda cool, but I know it's not really good for the tree.

[LJG]

(PalmGuyWC @ Jan. 02 2007,07:23)

QUOTE

I know many of you have very rare palms from Madagascar and other places that you wouldn't part with for any price, but from a commercial stand point, what is the most expensive palm you know of?

In SoCal for trunk foot? Jubaea's. Hands down! $1000/trunk ft  is cheap if it has a big fat trunk. Specimens go for $10,000 and up. I saw one fetching $40,000. And yes, it sold. However a Phoenix reclinata's are the most expensive palms overall. $40,000 and up for very old clumps.

CIDP are going up in price too. They are harder to get large specimens. With city's, upper-end developments, business parks and hotels competing for them, you just do not find grade A stuff without effort. Most grade A CIDPs go for $5000 and up. But they usually top out at $10,000 for even huge specimens. What is the benefit of something so tall you do not notice it?

P. dactylifera are cheap. They grow like weeds in the desert. Then are shipped to SoCal, where they slow down. Many landscape architects are using them now. They are cheap (in comparison) and you get size for a statement and instant maturity. Plus they slow down, so they do not shoot up. You put a plant in, and you know it will stay around that size for a long time. You put a CIDP in and if it likes where it is at, it will grow fast on you. (All relative of course).

Chamaehrops and Butia capitata are others you see that can cost a lot.

[LJG]

Also, do not think the price you hear stuff going for is what you will get when you sell. It will not be close. The specialty nurseries that handle the specimen trees have cost mixed in there. The lease/rent, digging/transplant cost, inherent risk of death, guarantees to buyer, etc... A $6000 CIPD might have cost the locator/broker/nurserymen a few hundred. A few thousand for a grade A male if they know they already have a guaranteed buyer. In many cases they got it for free. Some home owners just want the 'hassle' out of their yard and these people will "do it for free" .

[bahia]

I had always believed the prevailing wisdom that true Date Palms would not grow well right next to the bay, but seeing is believing, and while they don't grow like gangbusters here, the ones planted out in Emeryville in the retail areas, and mostly the ones that are planted with lawn around them and planted high enough to be above the high water table are actually looking pretty good.  Then again, there are bare spots where they have also died, and the ones with minimal planting area surrounded by asphalt parking lot and planted low, as opposed to raised fill, are not doing nearly so well.  

I don't think they are actually planting that many CIDP's in Las Vegas these days, as the periodic freezes they can get can kill them, and true Date Palms are much hardier to cold, and do better with the desert heat.

I can recall CDIP's already costing $10 to $15,000 for 20 to 25 foot tall trunks back in the mid 1980's, as an installed price here in northern California.  I worked one  project in Napa at the Silverado Country Club where we had some installed right before the bad freeze of December 1989.  I think it got down to 14F that month up there, and I know we were pretty worried that the newly installed CIDP's might be killed.  Completely defoliated, yes, but they looked okay again 3 years later.  That same freeze killed over 300 newly planted 15 gallon street trees in Marina Bay, Richmond, Ca., and these were tree species that I usually specified without any freeze worries, such as Schinus terbinthifolius, Eriobtrya deflexa, and Tristania conferta and T. laurina, and palms such as Queens.  I had assumed that being right on the bay it wouldn't get any colder than it does here in nearby Berkeley, bottoming out at 25C.  I suspect that the strong winds, young age of the trees recently planted, and 7 days of below freezing temps that December all combined to the losses, and most all would have survived if they had a few years of growth on them.  I am really glad that I hadn't spec'd any Archontophoenix cunninghamiana for that job, and I know I avoided designing around subtropical trees such as Jacaranda for at least a few years after that freeze.

[PalmGuyWC]

Hi LJG,

You sound like you know what your talking about, and thanks for the information.  I can see 40 K for a speciman Jubaea....but for a Phoenix recilinata?  I just don't see it. They are kind of high maintainance and I've never thought they were that attractrive, but I suppose a speciman must be scarce, and would look nice in front of an office building, etc..

You brought up a good point about the heigth of CIDP...I had never thought about that.  I guess there must be a "topping out" price.  When I started this thread, I was thinking of really rare palms, but I suppose commercial interests are the ones that drive the price of speciman palms and they want the tried and proven and instant gratification.

As a palm nut and enthueasiast, I've alway thought it was cheating to move in a huge palm.  Most of mine were grown from seeds or a 5 gal size bought from a nursery or a gift from a friend.  Each palm I have has a "story" behind it, and I would never consider selling one.

OK, we are up to 40 K+......for a P. reclinata.  Can anyone top that?  I wonder what a speciman Jubaeopsis caffra would bring in California..... if there was one available?

Dick

[kylecawazafla]

I heard of a Raphis Kannonchiku going for 60 K.

[LJG]

Clump like this would fetch a fortune!

What most people see is a clumping mess. When taken care of, and in the right position they are gorgeous palms.

All the other 'new' stuff is hard to find large. Simple as that. There are FAR too few that grew the plants back in the day. And they certainly would not sell. Maybe in another 15 - 30 years when all of the current growers or collectors have larger stuff, we will have a better idea of cost of some large mature stuff.

As far as growing it yourself verses bring it in mature. I have no issue bringing it in. Like adopting a child. Will you love it less? Also, we only go around this planet once. My view is to take advantage of this. Why wait 20 - 30 years to have something you could have now? You never know when the man upstairs is going to take you. Of course it is impossible to get all big stuff. So people have to wait on most stuff and grow it from 1 - 15 gallon.

[Walter John]

What would be the price for a 10 foot variegated foxy lady palm, about 4 foot of trunk. Anybody know ? It's all relative isn't it. I paid 27 dollars for it 2 or 3 years ago when it was 3 feet high. I looked at my Arenga engleri this morning and I thought, wow, that is fantastic, I'm so happy I have it growing at home and consider it as valuable as any other. Ah..on second thoughts. ???

[DoomsDave]

Hmm.

INteresting.

I more or less gave away about 6 nice 15 gallon P. reclinata.

But, I've still got 6 in the ground, maybe dig them up some day . . . .

dave

[LJG]

(Dave from So-Cal @ Jan. 02 2007,20:43)

QUOTE

Hmm.

INteresting.

I more or less gave away about 6 nice 15 gallon P. reclinata.

But, I've still got 6 in the ground, maybe dig them up some day . . . .

dave

Most Reclinata's that are small are hybrids. Hard to find true Recs. But if it is a true Rec, maybe in 50 years you can dig it and make some cash.

[BS Man about Palms]

I was given $2,000 and 2 planted 15 gal Kentias for my CIDP on the morning this picture was taken, roughly 7 years ago. (man, I had forgot it was that far back..)

[Kris]

(BobbyinNY @ Jan. 02 2007,11:49)

QUOTE

I'm just curious to know how you like the pruning job they did on those P. Canariensis to make them look like big pineapples.... Some people love it - some hate it.. I think it looks kinda cool, but I know it's not really good for the tree.

Dear Bobby  

I fell in love with CIDP only for its pineaple type

of fronds trimming.when i was a young boy of 16

years of age,when i watched hollyhood movies_

areas like L.A,Beverly hills & sandiego,Las vegas,sanfransisco,

Baha,texas etc..i could not resist this beauty.so i was

pestering my mom & dad to take me to Cal or Floridia.

and wanted to collect these seeds that were lying on the

side walks & pathway.Such was the craze i had for this

pineapple palm.and i used to collect the pages that had

CIDP in time magazine & national geography.

But my wish got fullfilled only recently when my friends

who work for a software firm in U.S.

He purschased few seeds from some reputed seeds selling

firms.and i have now few sapling of this Sp.

As for the trimming goes here is a beautiful site_kindly

all pay a visit & see their trimming & replanting skills !

http://www.datepalm.com/palminfo/canary.asp

http://www.datepalm.com/

for me the first favouriate palm will be the CIDP,followed

by Bizie lady,Cheliean wine palm,Breha Armada,med fan palm,triangle palm,lipstick palm,cycas revoulta...

Love,

Kris.

[BobbyinNY]

I was given $2,000 and 2 planted 15 gal Kentias for my CIDP on the morning this picture was taken, roughly 7 years ago. (man, I had forgot it was that far back..)

WOW... Bill... that's some CIDP...  How heavy do you think it was when they moved it???? I would guess at least 2 or 3 tons....

[Kris]

Dear Bobby  

my guess is that they would have used a 7 to 8 ton

crane to lift this jamboo !

the palm would first be cleaned of its unwanted frond

& dried leaves_but still it should have weighed around

4 to 6 tons at least ?

Bill am i close in my statistics about their weights ?

Kindly shed some light on this matter _ Please.

Love,

Kris.

[Bilbo]

Bobby

I too like the Pinapple cut but in a strictly formal setting the double cut as its been called (in France) to give a perfectly smooth trunk is impressive.

What I wonder is the smooth trunk version known as in the States?

There is a superb "grid" of these in the aptly named Parc Phoenix just East of Nice as atendees of the Bi out there a few years back will recall.

Regardez

Juan

[BS Man about Palms]

(BobbyinNY @ Jan. 03 2007,06:34)

QUOTE

I was given $2,000 and 2 planted 15 gal Kentias for my CIDP on the morning this picture was taken, roughly 7 years ago. (man, I had forgot it was that far back..)

WOW... Bill... that's some CIDP...  How heavy do you think it was when they moved it???? I would guess at least 2 or 3 tons....

I should dig up all the photos I took that day, then scan and post them in a seperate thread...

BUT, IIRC it was a 10 wheeled crane that drove with in 3' of my front porch and that left enough room in the street for one car to pass by.  I have power wires on the street edge which prevented lifting it "over" the house, but the crane was parked in front and moved it to the driveway on the side and set it on a full sized semi trailer.....

I do know where it went and I occasionally wave and say hello when I drive by...  

I'm guessing at LEAST 4 tons.

[PalmGuyWC]

Hi Kyle,

I kind of suspected that some rare Kannonchiku (Rhapis excelsa) would bring in the top dollar.  There were reports that back in the 70's or 80's that a Japaneese gentleman paid $10,000 for the first Rhapis "Eizannishiki."  It was a one of a kind, but now they can be purchased for a reasonable price if you call $150 reasonable for a plant a few inches high.

I'd like to hear more about the 60K purchase.  When? Where? What?

Dick

[BS Man about Palms]

(PalmGuyWC @ Jan. 04 2007,09:07)

QUOTE

Hi Kyle,

I kind of suspected that some rare Kannonchiku (Rhapis excelsa) would bring in the top dollar.  There were reports that back in the 70's or 80's that a Japaneese gentleman paid $10,000 for the first Rhapis "Eizannishiki."  It was a one of a kind, but now they can be purchased for a reasonable price if you call $150 reasonable for a plant a few inches high.

I'd like to hear more about the 60K purchase.  When? Where? What?

Dick

Hey! I got one of those!   I guess $75 WAS cheap after all!

[PalmGuyWC]

Hi Bill,

Cheap and a quality Rhapis Eizannishiki don't go together. I have four and only one of mine is what I would consider a "choice plant."  It has perfect vearigation 360 degrees and about 50/50 veraigation.  If it were for sale, I expect it would go for hundreds of dollars, if not more.

Dick

[BS Man about Palms]

(PalmGuyWC @ Jan. 04 2007,17:58)

QUOTE

Hi Bill,

Cheap and a quality Rhapis Eizannishiki don't go together. I have four and only one of mine is what I would consider a "choice plant."  It has perfect vearigation 360 degrees and about 50/50 veraigation.  If it were for sale, I expect it would go for hundreds of dollars, if not more.

Dick

Dick, I just looked at mine and it looks like a nice 1 gal plant and is vareigated about 50/50, I got from the son of a long time "Palmer". John/Jack Ingerwersen.   I actually like the looks of the R. "Shippodenshiroshima"  I have better...(I think I spelled that correct)  

[ruskinPalms]

What is the cost of some of the Pseudophoenix sp.? They take a lifetime to get to an interesting size and shape so they must be pretty expensive.

[amazon exotics]

Wal, Foxy's run $10-12 per ft. in S Fla.                                      Len, P. Dactylifera are no good, P Sylvestris are way better. Bill, I can get nice Pseudo's 25 gal with a couple ft of fat c/t for around $500.  

[PalmGuyWC]

Bill,

A choice variegated rhapis should have uniform striping 360 degrees around and generally have narrow stripes all over the fronds.  If a plant is half green on one side and variegated on the other, the variegated side might produce a good, or choice plant.  The green side will generally only produce green pups.  Sometimes it takes years, if at all, to grow a choice plant.

Often they will have wide white or yellow stripes and the wide stripes burn eaisly with to much sun or heat.  I have been growing variegated rhapis for years and it's quite a challange to grow one perfectly.  That's what makes it fun.  It's always a gamble because no two pups are the same.

Dick

[LJG]

(amazon exotics @ Jan. 05 2007,04:12)

QUOTE

Len, P. Dactylifera are no good, P Sylvestris are way better.

Bill, I can get nice Pseudo's 25 gal with a couple ft of fat c/t for around $500.  

I agree. You can actually see more and more of these around now days.

Regarding the Pseudophoenixs. Anyone from FL ship P. sargentii - big ones to CA? Ekmanii's?

[BS Man about Palms]

Len, Phil and Ron have some big Sargentii's....

[LJG]

(BS, Man about Palms @ Jan. 06 2007,09:12)

QUOTE

Len, Phil and Ron have some big Sargentii's....

Seen them. Ron wants a $1000 for his and Phils are very nice, but still 1/2 lifetime from trunk in SoCal.

If I am going to drop a $1000, I think I can get a larger one and ship it from FL for that. Worth a shot.