is this a rich mans hobby ?............

[carver]

What's rare to one person might be common to another, and if you work in the landscaping field someone might offer you a huge healthy palm because it isn't their taste while another has to pay an arm and leg for something comparable. Not to mention watering expense, some have to water like crazy while others simply plant it and watch it grow. It's like comparing apples to oranges, some people have to buy fruit, others have it falling off the tree in the backyard.

[yachtingone]

I have seen gardens that look great with very little money spent...

I have seen gardens that look great with lots more money spent...

The answer is the hobby is for every financial class to enjoy...

From silk underwear to cotton underwear we all like palms!!!

[MattyB]

NO UNDERWEAR...PALMS

[yachtingone]

NO UNDERWEAR...PALMS

Palm PERVERT!

[BS Man about Palms]

uuuuummmmmmmmmmmm

no comment.

[MattyB]

but....nevermind

[MattyB]

but....nevermind

[DoomsDave]

Hmm.

Thinking about this, answering the question goes to what it cost to have your garden.

You can, for example, pay top-dollar for a 24" box Caryota gigas for $300 (or more) or just pick up a small one in a gallon for 10 bucks, or 25 bucks for a fiver, all of which will get to be GORGEOUS monsters, 50+ feet tall towering over everything.

Likewise for any other large rare (and not so rare) species.

I've got about 450 palms in the ground at my place, the overwhelming majority of which started out small, about 1 - 5 gallon size. I'll figure an average price, more or less, of $15 each for 300 of the biggest ones. That's $4,500.

Change that to 15 gallons, for an average of $75 each (and that's super conservative for rare palms) and you're at $22,500; more realistically, an easy $45,000

Change that to 24" boxes, at an average of 300 each, and you're at $90,000. Or much more if they're really rare.

Hmm. Crunching numbers, umph, good!

(Urp!)

[Tassie_Troy1971]

I am Christoper Walken the rich movie star and i can buy any damn well palm tree i want !

Hell yeah i will just buy an Island of #&# Palm trees !!

so there pal !

[BS Man about Palms]

I am,

Christopher Walken,

see?

And I would like to buy,

an Island,

But no palm,

trees,

Understand?

Chris.

[bgl]

As has already been pointed out, it's all about what you make it. Buy seedlings for next to nothing or spend lots of money buying larger specimens. All you're doing really is buying time, assuming you have the money to do so. Which generally works out fine anyway. When we're younger, we still have plenty of time, but maybe not so much spare cash. As we grow older, we have less and less time left, but (hopefully) more money.

[buffy]

I'm financially blessed and young. When you're young palms are cheap, when you're old, they're expensive. If you're impatient, it's expensive. I'm with a few other posters on here. It's a rich man's game if you're old and need instant impact or you're just impatient. I've had the opportunity to purchase large specimen plants locally to put in my new garden. It just doesn't feel right sticking everything in as mature plants. There is so much joy and heartbreak growing palms from seed or small seedlings. I've put a few plants in that were a couple of years old for instant impact, but the majority of my stuff is small right now.

[edric]

As has already been pointed out, it's all about what you make it. Buy seedlings for next to nothing or spend lots of money buying larger specimens. All you're doing really is buying time, assuming you have the money to do so. Which generally works out fine anyway. When we're younger, we still have plenty of time, but maybe not so much spare cash. As we grow older, we have less and less time left, but (hopefully) more money.

Very well put Bo, I gotta say, Ed

[Kumar]

As has already been pointed out, it's all about what you make it. Buy seedlings for next to nothing or spend lots of money buying larger specimens. All you're doing really is buying time, assuming you have the money to do so. Which generally works out fine anyway. When we're younger, we still have plenty of time, but maybe not so much spare cash. As we grow older, we have less and less time left, but (hopefully) more money.

Bo, were you in the foreign service ?

[bgl]

Ed and Kumar, thanks! And, no, was never in the foreign service. Unless you count the Swedish Army!

[mjff]

I've had the opportunity to purchase large specimen plants locally to put in my new garden. It just doesn't feel right sticking everything in as mature plants.

Cameron,

If the larger stuff is causing you anguish, I'd be happy to come take them off your hands.

Martin

[freakypalmguy]

I've had the opportunity to purchase large specimen plants locally to put in my new garden. It just doesn't feel right sticking everything in as mature plants.

Cameron,

If the larger stuff is causing you anguish, I'd be happy to come take them off your hands.

Martin

Don't get me wrong, If I had the dough, I'd truck in as many monsters as I could, but I do understand what buff is saying, it sorta feels like cheating, like you are taking credit for someone else's work. Yes, I have bought many mature plants and will do so again in the future, but it just doesn't have the same satisfying feeling as growing a plant from seed or at least from a small size.

[sonoranfans]

Some palms make sense to grow from small size and some are better bought with some size. I dont think growing a jubaea from seed makes any sense, you'll never see it get any size. On the other hand it makes little sense to buy a 45 gallon king palm. I think the really slow growers might be better bought with some size if you want your landscape to mature within 10 years or so. But I agree with matt, part of the pleasure of growing is to watch the maturing process. One other point is that if you construct your landscape too quickly you get less time to reflect on its design as you see it being assembled. A better landscape design often is attained by giving yourself more time to assess how things work together, and this is less likely if you have to be done quickly. This would be particularly true for moderately experienced and new palm growers.

Edited January 13, 2011 by sonoranfans

[edric]

Some palms make sense to grow from small size and some are better bought with some size. I dont think growing a jubaea from seed makes any sense, you'll never see it get any size. On the other hand it makes little sense to buy a 45 gallon king palm. I think the really slow growers might be better bought with some size if you want your landscape to mature within 10 years or so. But I agree with matt, part of the pleasure of growing is to watch the maturing process. One other point is that if you construct your landscape too quickly you get less time to reflect on its design as you see it being assembled. A better landscape design often is attained by giving yourself more time to assess how things work together, and this is less likely if you have to be done quickly. This would be particularly true for moderately experienced and new palm growers.

Yes, but I only grow palms I can't plant, it just works out that way, Ed

[MattyB]

Ed and Kumar, thanks! And, no, was never in the foreign service. Unless you count the Swedish Army!

Bo, did you use meatballs in your cannons?

[MattyB]

Don't get me wrong, If I had the dough, I'd truck in as many monsters as I could, but I do understand what buff is saying, it sorta feels like cheating, like you are taking credit for someone else's work. Yes, I have bought many mature plants and will do so again in the future, but it just doesn't have the same satisfying feeling as growing a plant from seed or at least from a small size.

Matt, that's just what poor people tell themselves to make them feel better about being poor. "...well at least we have our healt.......oh my eye!"

[trioderob]

its interesting this talk about growing palms from seed vs getting larger palms.

when I talked to Dr Darian about this subject - (because he grew trunking

mealy bug dypsis from seed and what not) - he told me that the one thing he learned is that going bigger is better. its much easier to plan things. he told me that if he

could he would have never started with seedlings.

and of couse as a veteranarian he had the funds (this is my assumption only)

to get him self in a position to bring back palms from the other side of the world.

so it seems that time is your only friend unless you want to pay really big $$$

but it also has huge tradeoffs.

after all lets say you want one (1)of each of these palms that is JUST starting to trunk:

a) Bismarkia

Jubaea

C) Dypsis decipiens

d) Copernicia Baileyana

what would your cash outlay be ? we are talking only 4 palms here

so it comes down to being pretty well off or being young and keeping the same house

for 30 years.

most people these days keep the same house only 7 years, so that also is a big

factor in the equation.

Edited January 13, 2011 by trioderob

[bgl]

I always thought that this interest of ours, or hobby, or whatever we want to call it, is pretty unique. After all, if you collect stamps or coins or antiques and if you decide to move, not a problem. You simply bring your collection with you to your new residence. Not exactly the same with a garden full of palms, that may have been in the ground for many years, maybe even decades. So, do you stay put for the rest of your life because you have all that time invested in your garden? Tough one and probably a different answer for each of us, and also depending on the circumstances. As it happens, I have some experience in the field - recently leaving a garden with 5,000 palms, all of which I planted myself. Key to success - look ahead, not back!

MattyB - I have a hunch your "meatball question" is slightly off topic! No, first of all, never used a cannon. And the only meatballs I saw in the Army were the ones we ate. And those were REAL Swedish meatballs, not the silly imitations they call "Swedish meatballs" here in this country! I actually drove a truck, pulling a radar station at the only Hawk (anti aircraft missile) battery in Sweden. Unfortunately not a single palm in sight!

[LJG]

its interesting this talk about growing palms from seed vs getting larger palms.

when I talked to Dr Darian about this subject - (because he grew trunking

mealy bug dypsis from seed and what not) - he told me that the one thing he learned is that going bigger is better. its much easier to plan things. he told me that if he

could he would have never started with seedlings.

and of couse as a veteranarian he had the funds (this is my assumption only)

to get him self in a position to bring back palms from the other side of the world.

so it seems that time is your only friend unless you want to pay really big $$$

but it also has huge tradeoffs.

after all lets say you want one (1)of each of these palms that is JUST starting to trunk:

a) Bismarkia

Jubaea

C) Dypsis decipiens

d) Copernicia Baileyana

what would your cash outlay be ? we are talking only 4 palms here

so it comes down to being pretty well off or being young and keeping the same house

for 30 years.

most people these days keep the same house only 7 years, so that also is a big

factor in the equation.

Rob,

Just FYI, but Doc brought back three "Mealy Bug" palms from Madagascar as seedlings. Only one survived eventually as we all see now. Also, when Doc talks about not planting out seedlings, he does not mean he would have "bought" big. It means he would have grown them larger and then planted them. Remember, large palms were not available back then like they are now. Doc has told me numerous times that he has lost hundreds of palms over his lifetime by not waiting to plant them bigger or from being impatient and planting in the wrong spot. Planting a 5,10 or 15 gallon provides a much greater chance of success verses just planting a seedling in the ground. Not just Doc, but almost all the old time palm enthusiast know this and that is why they typically have a greenhouse of some sort.

Another thing to consider is palms are much more expensive in Socal then HI or FL for example. They just grow so much faster there. I bought a 16 year old Bismarkia about 4 years ago. It was in a 48 inch box. That cost me $1100 I believe. That same palm in FL would have been about $200. Copernicia baileyana? You will never grow one from seed and have one trunking in your life time (well, unless you start when you are young) here unless you start it in a greenhouse. The ones that Doc planted as seedlings are 30 or so years old. You saw that they are no bigger than a FL 10 plant right now!

[trioderob]

LEN-

you are right - maybe I did not understand fully what he was trying to tell me.

thanks.....

[spockvr6]

As it happens, I have some experience in the field - recently leaving a garden with 5,000 palms, all of which I planted myself.

I must have missed this thread!

[freakypalmguy]

Don't get me wrong, If I had the dough, I'd truck in as many monsters as I could, but I do understand what buff is saying, it sorta feels like cheating, like you are taking credit for someone else's work. Yes, I have bought many mature plants and will do so again in the future, but it just doesn't have the same satisfying feeling as growing a plant from seed or at least from a small size.

Matt, that's just what poor people tell themselves to make them feel better about being poor. "...well at least we have our healt.......oh my eye!"

[sonoranfans]

its interesting this talk about growing palms from seed vs getting larger palms.

when I talked to Dr Darian about this subject - (because he grew trunking

mealy bug dypsis from seed and what not) - he told me that the one thing he learned is that going bigger is better. its much easier to plan things. he told me that if he

could he would have never started with seedlings.

and of couse as a veteranarian he had the funds (this is my assumption only)

to get him self in a position to bring back palms from the other side of the world.

so it seems that time is your only friend unless you want to pay really big $$$

but it also has huge tradeoffs.

after all lets say you want one (1)of each of these palms that is JUST starting to trunk:

a) Bismarkia

Jubaea

C) Dypsis decipiens

d) Copernicia Baileyana

what would your cash outlay be ? we are talking only 4 palms here

so it comes down to being pretty well off or being young and keeping the same house

for 30 years.

most people these days keep the same house only 7 years, so that also is a big

factor in the equation.

Rob,

Just FYI, but Doc brought back three "Mealy Bug" palms from Madagascar as seedlings. Only one survived eventually as we all see now. Also, when Doc talks about not planting out seedlings, he does not mean he would have "bought" big. It means he would have grown them larger and then planted them. Remember, large palms were not available back then like they are now. Doc has told me numerous times that he has lost hundreds of palms over his lifetime by not waiting to plant them bigger or from being impatient and planting in the wrong spot. Planting a 5,10 or 15 gallon provides a much greater chance of success verses just planting a seedling in the ground. Not just Doc, but almost all the old time palm enthusiast know this and that is why they typically have a greenhouse of some sort.

Another thing to consider is palms are much more expensive in Socal then HI or FL for example. They just grow so much faster there. I bought a 16 year old Bismarkia about 4 years ago. It was in a 48 inch box. That cost me $1100 I believe. That same palm in FL would have been about $200. Copernicia baileyana? You will never grow one from seed and have one trunking in your life time (well, unless you start when you are young) here unless you start it in a greenhouse. The ones that Doc planted as seedlings are 30 or so years old. You saw that they are no bigger than a FL 10 plant right now!

This all makes sense to me, and I have seen the speed of growth in florida. Seeing 10 year old royals and bismarckias at 30' and 20' overall respectively, its hard to make the argument here to "buy big" on those species. But copernicias are much slower grower, and I understand that motivation to "buy big".

I also have seen some 3-5 gallon rootbound palm species take off when planted, while 1 gallons/seedlings do poorly. Cold tolerance may be part of the issue, but it may also be that small root systems are easier to keep damp/fertilized in a container than in sandy soil. I remember planting 2 sets of queens( 2 each) when I was in arizona, 36" box and 15 gallon size. Though the 36" box was at least 2x the size upon planting, within 4 years the 15 gallons passed them and became more impressive trees with fuller crowns. Some palms dont do well being in containers too long. One hypothesis is that young palms produce higher levels of rooting hormones and develop larger root systems than older palms planted large. I have also seen this effect in phoenix arizona with washie robustas, and phoenix dactyliferas. Those planted young(leaf bases not cleared from trunks) had much fuller crowns, so my assumption is larger root systems.

[PalmGuyWC]

Getting back to the original question: If you can see beautiful palms from every window in your house, then you are rich.

Dick

[spockvr6]

This all makes sense to me, and I have seen the speed of growth in florida. Seeing 10 year old royals and bismarckias at 30' and 20' overall respectively, its hard to make the argument here to "buy big" on those species. But copernicias are much slower grower, and I understand that motivation to "buy big".

For sure! I think many times its actually much worse to buy bigger sizes of certain palms. If they didnt previously receive the same care they will get in ones one yard, they may never grow to potential.

IMO, for a balance of speed, landscape appeal and future girth, Royals are best purchased when they have only a foot or two of wood. At that stage, they are about to take off and go up rapidly, and one can very readily determine that palms genetics and previous care. In short, buy the Royal with the absolutely fattest base and crownshaft you can find.

As for Bismarckia........another one I think to buy small/moderate size. I dont believe these are easy to transplant from larger field grown sizes. The county planted a bunch of large ones (maybe 10-15 ft of wood) on a median several years ago. 75% of them have never grown well and still appear to be in transplant shock these years later. I guess they should have paid to get Ken to transplant them!

[Jeff in St Pete]

Getting back to the original question: If you can see beautiful palms from every window in your house, then you are rich.

Dick

Well said Dick. I couldn't agree more.

[Xenon]

I'm young and impatient, all my seedlings either grow really slow or randomly die...but I guess it'll pay off in 20 years....

Jonathan

[obabylive]

its interesting this talk about growing palms from seed vs getting larger palms.

when I talked to Dr Darian about this subject - (because he grew trunking

mealy bug dypsis from seed and what not) - he told me that the one thing he learned is that going bigger is better. its much easier to plan things. he told me that if he

could he would have never started with seedlings.

and of couse as a veteranarian he had the funds (this is my assumption only)

to get him self in a position to bring back palms from the other side of the world.

so it seems that time is your only friend unless you want to pay really big $$$

but it also has huge tradeoffs.

after all lets say you want one (1)of each of these palms that is JUST starting to trunk:

a) Bismarkia

Jubaea

C) Dypsis decipiens

d) Copernicia Baileyana

what would your cash outlay be ? we are talking only 4 palms here

so it comes down to being pretty well off or being young and keeping the same house

for 30 years.

most people these days keep the same house only 7 years, so that also is a big

factor in the equation.

Rob,

Just FYI, but Doc brought back three "Mealy Bug" palms from Madagascar as seedlings. Only one survived eventually as we all see now. Also, when Doc talks about not planting out seedlings, he does not mean he would have "bought" big. It means he would have grown them larger and then planted them. Remember, large palms were not available back then like they are now. Doc has told me numerous times that he has lost hundreds of palms over his lifetime by not waiting to plant them bigger or from being impatient and planting in the wrong spot. Planting a 5,10 or 15 gallon provides a much greater chance of success verses just planting a seedling in the ground. Not just Doc, but almost all the old time palm enthusiast know this and that is why they typically have a greenhouse of some sort.

Another thing to consider is palms are much more expensive in Socal then HI or FL for example. They just grow so much faster there. I bought a 16 year old Bismarkia about 4 years ago. It was in a 48 inch box. That cost me $1100 I believe. That same palm in FL would have been about $200. Copernicia baileyana? You will never grow one from seed and have one trunking in your life time (well, unless you start when you are young) here unless you start it in a greenhouse. The ones that Doc planted as seedlings are 30 or so years old. You saw that they are no bigger than a FL 10 plant right now!

This all makes sense to me, and I have seen the speed of growth in florida. Seeing 10 year old royals and bismarckias at 30' and 20' overall respectively, its hard to make the argument here to "buy big" on those species. But copernicias are much slower grower, and I understand that motivation to "buy big".

I also have seen some 3-5 gallon rootbound palm species take off when planted, while 1 gallons/seedlings do poorly. Cold tolerance may be part of the issue, but it may also be that small root systems are easier to keep damp/fertilized in a container than in sandy soil. I remember planting 2 sets of queens( 2 each) when I was in arizona, 36" box and 15 gallon size. Though the 36" box was at least 2x the size upon planting, within 4 years the 15 gallons passed them and became more impressive trees with fuller crowns. Some palms dont do well being in containers too long. One hypothesis is that young palms produce higher levels of rooting hormones and develop larger root systems than older palms planted large. I have also seen this effect in phoenix arizona with washie robustas, and phoenix dactyliferas. Those planted young(leaf bases not cleared from trunks) had much fuller crowns, so my assumption is larger root systems.

I don't think so. Although being wealthy does give you more options:D . For Richer or Poorer, we all recognize bueaty when we see palms/plants and don't think about how much money the owner has (unless the garden is over-the-top). Where the wealth does come into the picture is when we realize the dept of our passion and desire to live in a more tropical climate (leave friends family, career?), have a larger property (do I walk away from what I've created and start over?), or desire to make a living enjoying our passion (though some may not desire to mix passion and work for obvious reasons). When you have wealth, you can more easily make your vision happen by just doing-it (you can buy time and sustain desired standard of living)........

As for smaller palms out-pacing larger ones....

I planted this Sabal Palmetto from a 24" box approx. 13yrs. ago

I planted this Sabal Blackburniana 20ft away as a 15g, 1 yr later, as you can see, it has out-paced the Palmetto 2 to 1.....

makes you give thought to big root-bound palms vs. smaller plants w/developing root systems

Edited January 15, 2011 by obabylive

[Tyrone]

its interesting this talk about growing palms from seed vs getting larger palms.

when I talked to Dr Darian about this subject - (because he grew trunking

mealy bug dypsis from seed and what not) - he told me that the one thing he learned is that going bigger is better. its much easier to plan things. he told me that if he

could he would have never started with seedlings.

and of couse as a veteranarian he had the funds (this is my assumption only)

to get him self in a position to bring back palms from the other side of the world.

so it seems that time is your only friend unless you want to pay really big $$

but it also has huge tradeoffs.

after all lets say you want one (1)of each of these palms that is JUST starting to trunk:

a) Bismarkia

Jubaea

C) Dypsis decipiens

d) Copernicia Baileyana

what would your cash outlay be ? we are talking only 4 palms here

so it comes down to being pretty well off or being young and keeping the same house

for 30 years.

most people these days keep the same house only 7 years, so that also is a big

factor in the equation.

Looking at those species. None are available at trunking stage over here to buy. All would have to be in bags to be worth trying IMO except for maybe the Jubaea. Don't expect any change from $30000 - $40000 over here in total IF they were even available, which they aren't.

I have lots of palms is that why I don't have any money?

Anyway I started out buying the marked down rejects from the palm nurseries in the beginning and now they are all big, trunking and in some cases fruiting specimens. I started in 1999, and now have thousands of seedlings, a rainforest garden and 2 greenhouses set up for slightly different climates and don't intend to stop. I don't know what my plants are worth, but the market really determines that. Due to the quarantine issues in West Oz the variety of palms here is quite low except for a couple of exceptions. Now I'm a landscaper I can eventually move some of my rarities into designs. Large rare specimens simply do not exist in West Oz. You can not buy a large Dypsis mananjarensis anywhere for example. In fact I don't know anyone who sells one leaf seedlings of D mananjarensis. I've just got in seed, so I may end up being the only one.

Palm collecting and growing. I love it. Better than stamps that's for sure.

Best regards

Tyrone

[kinzyjr]

If you want a mature, reproducing grove of each palm that exists, yes. 

By the same token, if you live in a relatively affordable area, and grow from seed, you can save quite a bit.  For example, you could buy a box of medjool dates, some solo cups, and some potting soil from your local stores and have the beginnings of some wonderful blue/green date palms for under $20.  Most of my plants were bought at or below $20 as seeds or seedlings, and it brings me joy to watch them grow year after year.

[Alberto]

Last I bought two containers with 5 monsters Jubaeas , direct from Chile. Each palm is at least 50 years old.........   Just kidding, most of my palms were grown from seeds and it is part of the fun to see them grow. Although it would be nice to have some big towering Jubaeas I ´ll have to wait 100 years.......

[palmad Merc]

Depends how far you want to take it, you can germinate one seed and Be stoked with that, or you can have a botanical garden full.

either way, if your enthusiastic about both, you are a palm enthusiast,big or small. 

[Alberto]

On 14/01/2011 13:48:31, PalmGuyWC said:

Getting back to the original question: If you can see beautiful palms from every window in your house, then you are rich.

 

Dick

Our deceased palm friend Dick Douglas was right! 

[Funkthulhu]

Just wanna throw my two cents in on this.  As you may well know, I live in an environment where it is nigh impossible to have a palm in the ground year-round. (and I live in an apartment to boot)  

However, my container ranch is coming along quite nicely, and I enjoy my palms every day!  Furthermore, let's pretend that I would have spent all that money on pots and soil anyway, because I have a lot of other tropicals and weirdness to tend to.  I have only ever purchased four palms, two R.rivularis, a pygmy date, and a miniscule D.lutey.  All of my other palms have been seeds I picked up from the ground on trips, received from loved ones after a funeral (yes really), or donated to my weirdness by other awesome people here at PalmTalk (I'm looking at you in particular, DoomsDave).  

So, end result is that I have 14 species between home and office in multiple pots and I have gone less than a hundred bucks out of pocket!  I love my hobby, it makes me happy, and so far all my palms are happy here.  

But it goes without saying that if I were living in Zone 8, 9, or 10 (and a homeowner!) I would be soooooooooo broke!  

So my answer to this question is, you can get by on the cheap if you drastically limit your living space, or have better willpower than I.

[Phoenikakias]

16 hours ago, Alberto said:

Our deceased palm friend Dick Douglas was right! 

A very ambivalent statement, because the causality sequence is not clear. Anyway after the outbreak of the recent pests in the Med only rich people or crazy ones maintain large palm collections.