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Dave-Vero

Florida's in line for more January cold

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Dave-Vero

Story from our dinky local newspaper at TC Palm.

"...But now an Arctic Oscillation has materialized again, L'Heureux said. They aren't as stable as La Niña so they can be predicted only for two to three weeks ahead of time."

Info on Arctic Oscillation

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happ

It seems winters are becoming more unpredictable and more volatile. We were expecting typical La Nina drought conditions in the Southwest but were drenched last month; some areas received more rainfall in December than they normally observe in an entire year. No one complains about the rainfall [except those who experienced mud\landslides] however since the clouds keep night temps up. The AO has been a major spoiler for the Southeast two years in a row; very unusual. :blink:

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_Keith

It seems winters are becoming more unpredictable and more volatile. We were expecting typical La Nina drought conditions in the Southwest but were drenched last month; some areas received more rainfall in December than they normally observe in an entire year. No one complains about the rainfall [except those who experienced mud\landslides] however since the clouds keep night temps up. The AO has been a major spoiler for the Southeast two years in a row; very unusual. :blink:

The AO has been a spoiler indeed. Certainly dampened my interest for a while. And we too, had a crazy year in rainfall, getting 73 inches, where we average 56.

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bubba

Drove the Turnpike today from Palm Beach to Orlando for a Court Hearing. As you move inland past PGA and Jupiter, you begin to see evidence of cold temperatures. It was interesting to note some damage to the virtually indestructible Brazilian Pepper between Yehaw and Kissimmee. The heat island around Orlando shows up as the City nears and Australian Pines are propagating once again.It is interesting to observe the vast numbers of deciduous trees North of Palm Beach County and the comparitive lack of green,

Notwithstanding the AO, I do not see anything in the NWS forecast to suggest armeggedon in South Florida. They have PBI at 42F on Wed. morning or about mid-40's near the water with highs one day in the high 60's. Although a freeze can happen at anytime, the odds go down big-time after Jan. 21. Hard to believe they are sledding in Buckhead/Atlanta according to my sister.

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epicure3

Drove the Turnpike today from Palm Beach to Orlando for a Court Hearing. As you move inland past PGA and Jupiter, you begin to see evidence of cold temperatures. It was interesting to note some damage to the virtually indestructible Brazilian Pepper between Yehaw and Kissimmee. The heat island around Orlando shows up as the City nears and Australian Pines are propagating once again.It is interesting to observe the vast numbers of deciduous trees North of Palm Beach County and the comparitive lack of green,

Notwithstanding the AO, I do not see anything in the NWS forecast to suggest armeggedon in South Florida. They have PBI at 42F on Wed. morning or about mid-40's near the water with highs one day in the high 60's. Although a freeze can happen at anytime, the odds go down big-time after Jan. 21. Hard to believe they are sledding in Buckhead/Atlanta according to my sister.

There's a PGA tournament in Florida this week? :drool::drool:

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Dave-Vero

We're under a freeze watch, although the local prediction for tomorrow night is merely 36. I suspect this may turn out to be the coldest night of the month.

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TropicalDude

We're under a freeze watch, although the local prediction for tomorrow night is merely 36. I suspect this may turn out to be the coldest night of the month.

lol if its anything like what they said last time, that's very possible. Here in Orlando the very last freezing night of the back-to-backs was supposed to be "not as cold" only to around 33. That turned out to be the coldest night this winter (down into the 20s) for most locations..

Meteorologists do a great job, but until they can predict temps within 12hrs more accurately, there's no way they can expect me to take predictions of future climate doom seriously.

If this coming freeze or near freeze gets any lower than 32, this could be the end of tropicals as we know it (not looking brown half of the year) for all these areas in Central Florida thought to have become 10a, when in reality are long term 9a.

Edited by TropicalDude

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Takil-Explorer

Well maybe the last 14 mild winters in Europe have people given the believe they live in zone 8 or 9. Well now after 2 cold winters they now better! Some say we have a climate 8 or even 9 here. I know that in fact The Hague area is a zone 7 in the long term. Maybe 8 when very sheltered in urbanished areas! And the coldest parts of the Low Countries are well into zone 6.

Alexander

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TropicalDude

Well maybe the last 14 mild winters in Europe have people given the believe they live in zone 8 or 9. Well now after 2 cold winters they now better! Some say we have a climate 8 or even 9 here. I know that in fact The Hague area is a zone 7 in the long term. Maybe 8 when very sheltered in urbanished areas! And the coldest parts of the Low Countries are well into zone 6.

Alexander

Can any tropicals grow right on the coast in any urbanized areas of the low countries? But I'm guessing they don't build close to the coast because of the threat of flooding?

Edited by TropicalDude

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gsytch

Watch out! Another freeze event (the 5th of the winter) IS DUE NEXT WEEKEND! I am soooooo sick of the cold. Today was a beautiful 68f and sunny until...........the seabreeze blew in. 68f at 2pm. 55f at 3pm with a west wind at 4mph off 53f Gulf waters! It will never warm up with this constant cold. That means chilly weather for a long time. ARGHHHHHHHHH :drool:

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DavidLee

Drove the Turnpike today from Palm Beach to Orlando for a Court Hearing. As you move inland past PGA and Jupiter, you begin to see evidence of cold temperatures. It was interesting to note some damage to the virtually indestructible Brazilian Pepper between Yehaw and Kissimmee. The heat island around Orlando shows up as the City nears and Australian Pines are propagating once again.It is interesting to observe the vast numbers of deciduous trees North of Palm Beach County and the comparitive lack of green,

Notwithstanding the AO, I do not see anything in the NWS forecast to suggest armeggedon in South Florida. They have PBI at 42F on Wed. morning or about mid-40's near the water with highs one day in the high 60's. Although a freeze can happen at anytime, the odds go down big-time after Jan. 21. Hard to believe they are sledding in Buckhead/Atlanta according to my sister.

Well at least we got some good news from the freezes. Hopefully it killed some phythons in the everglades too.

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epicure3

Watch out! Another freeze event (the 5th of the winter) IS DUE NEXT WEEKEND! I am soooooo sick of the cold. Today was a beautiful 68f and sunny until...........the seabreeze blew in. 68f at 2pm. 55f at 3pm with a west wind at 4mph off 53f Gulf waters! It will never warm up with this constant cold. That means chilly weather for a long time. ARGHHHHHHHHH :drool:

Instead of getting so upset, you should move to a warmer climate.

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TropicalDude

Watch out! Another freeze event (the 5th of the winter) IS DUE NEXT WEEKEND! I am soooooo sick of the cold. Today was a beautiful 68f and sunny until...........the seabreeze blew in. 68f at 2pm. 55f at 3pm with a west wind at 4mph off 53f Gulf waters! It will never warm up with this constant cold. That means chilly weather for a long time. ARGHHHHHHHHH :drool:

another one!! This covering/uncovering up stuff is realllly getting old. Hopefully that 31 F I'm seeing there for Orlando ends up being a few degrees warmer...

Hasn't this winter already beat (by far) last winter's total # of nights at freezing or below? With all the hysteria about being able to control the climate I almost feel like we deserve this.

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gsytch

I'd move in a heartbeat if............I could sell my house and not lose $$.....find a teaching job in Hawaii.........and move all my plants with me :-))......Now, some stations are saying not so cold, others are saying watch out for possible light freezes. I guess it will be the freeze because, after all, it has been that way all winter long! iT HAS NEVER GONE UP, JUST DOWN!

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Takil-Explorer

About growing exotic plants in the Netherlands, tropical looking ones,we can grow Trachycarpus fortunei, Musa basjoo, some Hedychiums, Tetrapanax Steriodal Giant, a lot of Yuccas, hardy Opuntias and things like needle palm and Sabal minor when planted at a very warm spot. And Chamaerops grows well in the mildest parts when planted at a warm microclimate.

Only abot 25% of the country is below sealevel. And along the coast its mostely dunes. And also lot of cities just behind the dunes like The Hague. And the highest point is 300 meters above sealevel. That this country is just one large polder far below sealevel with a dike arround it is not true, although its a lot of people assiociate with this country. The lowest parts are those polders.

Alexander

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Takil-Explorer

Watch out! Another freeze event (the 5th of the winter) IS DUE NEXT WEEKEND! I am soooooo sick of the cold. Today was a beautiful 68f and sunny until...........the seabreeze blew in. 68f at 2pm. 55f at 3pm with a west wind at 4mph off 53f Gulf waters! It will never warm up with this constant cold. That means chilly weather for a long time. ARGHHHHHHHHH :drool:

Well 20C in this time of the year! For us that early summer!!! You folks need to spend some winter time in a colder climate, you never gonna complain again about that cold Florida weather! And well a litte bit of frost is part of that climate there!

Alexander

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Walt

Watch out! Another freeze event (the 5th of the winter) IS DUE NEXT WEEKEND! I am soooooo sick of the cold. Today was a beautiful 68f and sunny until...........the seabreeze blew in. 68f at 2pm. 55f at 3pm with a west wind at 4mph off 53f Gulf waters! It will never warm up with this constant cold. That means chilly weather for a long time. ARGHHHHHHHHH :drool:

Well 20C in this time of the year! For us that early summer!!! You folks need to spend some winter time in a colder climate, you never gonna complain again about that cold Florida weather! And well a litte bit of frost is part of that climate there!

Alexander

I will speak for myself (although I think other Floridians will mostly agree with me) regarding the cold, and why I think you are missing the point here.

It's not so much the cold -- in and of itself -- Floridians (who grow palms and tropicals) object to (although that's surely a complaint), it's the killing and damaging of their palms and tropicals that they abhor. If we Floridians lived in your climate we would have no real expectation to grow the tropical species of palms and plants we do. As such, all we would have to concern ourselves about is just staying warm and comfortable.

But in Florida, we can go years (some places even decades) growing tropical palms and plants because for the most part our winters are mild enough that the palms, plants, etc., get through the winters mostly unscathed. But the past couple of winters have been abnormal, and we've experienced dozens of days of palm/tropicals damaging low temperatures.

I'm not a native Floridian. I come from a state where low temperatures will drop well into the teens (if not single digits F) 2-3 times, and get snow many times each winter. As such, it's a way of life and one accepts it without too much complaint. What we are getting here in Florida lately is abnormal and not expected, at least with the frequency that it's been happening.

To sum it up, if I didn't have cold tender palms and plants this cold weather we had (it's nice now) wouldn't bother me near as much. It's what the cold does to my palm garden, not to me.

  • Upvote 1

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_Keith

Watch out! Another freeze event (the 5th of the winter) IS DUE NEXT WEEKEND! I am soooooo sick of the cold. Today was a beautiful 68f and sunny until...........the seabreeze blew in. 68f at 2pm. 55f at 3pm with a west wind at 4mph off 53f Gulf waters! It will never warm up with this constant cold. That means chilly weather for a long time. ARGHHHHHHHHH :drool:

Well 20C in this time of the year! For us that early summer!!! You folks need to spend some winter time in a colder climate, you never gonna complain again about that cold Florida weather! And well a litte bit of frost is part of that climate there!

Alexander

I will speak for myself (although I think other Floridians will mostly agree with me) regarding the cold, and why I think you are missing the point here.

It's not so much the cold -- in and of itself -- Floridians (who grow palms and tropicals) object to (although that's surely a complaint), it's the killing and damaging of their palms and tropicals that they abhor. If we Floridians lived in your climate we would have no real expectation to grow the tropical species of palms and plants we do. As such, all we would have to concern ourselves about is just staying warm and comfortable.

But in Florida, we can go years (some places even decades) growing tropical palms and plants because for the most part our winters are mild enough that the palms, plants, etc., get through the winters mostly unscathed. But the past couple of winters have been abnormal, and we've experienced dozens of days of palm/tropicals damaging low temperatures.

I'm not a native Floridian. I come from a state where low temperatures will drop well into the teens (if not single digits F) 2-3 times, and get snow many times each winter. As such, it's a way of life and one accepts it without too much complaint. What we are getting here in Florida lately is abnormal and not expected, at least with the frequency that it's been happening.

To sum it up, if I didn't have cold tender palms and plants this cold weather we had (it's nice now) wouldn't bother me near as much. It's what the cold does to my palm garden, not to me.

I am not sure that what you are getting there in Florida lately is abnormal and not expected. We are just emerging from an abnormally warm period. Florida's history is littered with them cold spells every 20 years or so. So, in effect, what you are experiencing is Florida's normal weather. It's just when we look at it in a huma's abnormally short attention span, that it looks abnormal.

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spockvr6

I am not sure that what you are getting there in Florida lately is abnormal and not expected. We are just emerging from an abnormally warm period. Florida's history is littered with them cold spells every 20 years or so. So, in effect, what you are experiencing is Florida's normal weather. It's just when we look at it in a huma's abnormally short attention span, that it looks abnormal.

Keith-

I can tell you that, since 1892 at least, this winter is not normal!

Sure, we have cold blasts all the time historically. But, since records have been kept, weve never had so many of them in a row.

Of course, could this be normal in the earths overall time table (i.e. a period which far far exceeds our documented record keeping)? Thats a question we wont be able to answer for some time I dont think. :mrlooney:

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SubTropicRay

AO forecast

The Arctic Oscillation is forecast to go positive (warm for us) and next weekend's freeze is no longer in the extended forecast.

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PalmatierMeg

AO forecast

The Arctic Oscillation is forecast to go positive (warm for us) and next weekend's freeze is no longer in the extended forecast.

I wondered about that. Our weather forecasts have backed off the low of 40 for Sat. To think only a year ago I'd never heard of AO.

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TropicalDude

So that 31 has become 48 which is the lowest I see there right now. That's a BIG change! Great news. Hopefully no more freezing temps.

I am not sure that what you are getting there in Florida lately is abnormal and not expected. We are just emerging from an abnormally warm period. Florida's history is littered with them cold spells every 20 years or so. So, in effect, what you are experiencing is Florida's normal weather. It's just when we look at it in a huma's abnormally short attention span, that it looks abnormal.

Actually as an example, the normal for Central Florida (Orlando area) is only around 2 dips to around freezing in January, typically 0 for December. If the normal frequency were much more than that nobody would be trying to seriously grow tropicals here. The frequency for these last two winters is a statistical anomaly and totally unexpected. When did the "abnormally warm period" happen? It's always been around the same. Even when lows have been a few degrees colder (possibly because of less heat island then) there's never been anywhere near this many freezing lows in one winter in modern memory.

Despite the cooling trend of 4 consecutive winters, hopefully Orlando will never see 1980s lows around 20 ever again due to so much urban concrete.

Edited by TropicalDude

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sonoranfans

Watch out! Another freeze event (the 5th of the winter) IS DUE NEXT WEEKEND! I am soooooo sick of the cold. Today was a beautiful 68f and sunny until...........the seabreeze blew in. 68f at 2pm. 55f at 3pm with a west wind at 4mph off 53f Gulf waters! It will never warm up with this constant cold. That means chilly weather for a long time. ARGHHHHHHHHH :drool:

Well 20C in this time of the year! For us that early summer!!! You folks need to spend some winter time in a colder climate, you never gonna complain again about that cold Florida weather! And well a litte bit of frost is part of that climate there!

Alexander

I will speak for myself (although I think other Floridians will mostly agree with me) regarding the cold, and why I think you are missing the point here.

It's not so much the cold -- in and of itself -- Floridians (who grow palms and tropicals) object to (although that's surely a complaint), it's the killing and damaging of their palms and tropicals that they abhor. If we Floridians lived in your climate we would have no real expectation to grow the tropical species of palms and plants we do. As such, all we would have to concern ourselves about is just staying warm and comfortable.

But in Florida, we can go years (some places even decades) growing tropical palms and plants because for the most part our winters are mild enough that the palms, plants, etc., get through the winters mostly unscathed. But the past couple of winters have been abnormal, and we've experienced dozens of days of palm/tropicals damaging low temperatures.

I'm not a native Floridian. I come from a state where low temperatures will drop well into the teens (if not single digits F) 2-3 times, and get snow many times each winter. As such, it's a way of life and one accepts it without too much complaint. What we are getting here in Florida lately is abnormal and not expected, at least with the frequency that it's been happening.

To sum it up, if I didn't have cold tender palms and plants this cold weather we had (it's nice now) wouldn't bother me near as much. It's what the cold does to my palm garden, not to me.

I am not sure that what you are getting there in Florida lately is abnormal and not expected. We are just emerging from an abnormally warm period. Florida's history is littered with them cold spells every 20 years or so. So, in effect, what you are experiencing is Florida's normal weather. It's just when we look at it in a huma's abnormally short attention span, that it looks abnormal.

When something happens once every 20 years or so it is by definition not expected or normal. The expected value would be close to the average. Today at 80F is not normal its above the expected, but I will take it!

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spockvr6

When something happens once every 20 years or so it is by definition not expected or normal. The expected value would be close to the average. Today at 80F is not normal its above the expected, but I will take it!

Yeah.....when I went outside this afternoon I almost felt warm! Very odd sensation as I seemed to have forgotten what this felt like.

And......it was only lower 70's in Tarpon Springs today. Average is 72F. How interesting that a historically average day could feel so good!

Edited by spockvr6

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_Keith

When something happens once every 20 years or so it is by definition not expected or normal. The expected value would be close to the average. Today at 80F is not normal its above the expected, but I will take it!

I have to disagree. That it happens every 20 years or so is not the issue. That it happens every 20 years or so on a regular basis is the issue. If it has happened on a fairly regular basis in the past, no matter the interval, and then it happens again, then it could hardly be called unexpected.

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sonoranfans

When something happens once every 20 years or so it is by definition not expected or normal. The expected value would be close to the average. Today at 80F is not normal its above the expected, but I will take it!

I have to disagree. That it happens every 20 years or so is not the issue. That it happens every 20 years or so on a regular basis is the issue. If it has happened on a fairly regular basis in the past, no matter the interval, and then it happens again, then it could hardly be called unexpected.

You can of course disagree, but to expect the coldest december ever recorded the year after the coldest winter in 30 years would not be expected based on historical data and was not expected by pretty much anyone here. The probability of that happening is very low, therefore not expected on the basis of conditional probability of two successive low probability(1/20??) events.

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Walt

I moved to Highlands County, Florida in 1997. I've been recording winter time low temperatures for the past 13 winters. I can state empirically that I've never experienced two one-month periods like January of 2010 and December of 2010.

In January of 2010 I had 11 straight nights below 40 degrees, and five of them were below 30 degrees. But that pales to what I experienced last month (December 2010).

Using Oregon Scientific digital thermometers and sensors (suspended inside a multi-wrapped pillow case 4 feet above the ground in the open yard) I recorded the following low temperatures (and also listed some official low temperatures at Archbold Biological Station [ABS]8 miles south of me):

Dec. 7th: 25.4 degrees (ABS recorded 19 degrees)

Dec. 8th: 23.9 " (ABS recorded 18 degrees)

Dec. 14th: 25.0 "

Dec. 15th: 22.1 " (tied my previous all-time radiational freeze low of Jan. 5, 2001; ABS recorded 13 degrees on Jan. 5, 2001)

Dec. 16th: 25.3 "

Dec. 28th: 20.9 " (new all-time radiational freeze low. ABS recorded 16 degrees)

Dec. 29th: 23.9 "

The above low temperatures are unprecedented for me. I've never had more than two nights in an entire winter that were in the 20s, let alone in one month -- and let alone in the month of December!

All of the above low temperatures were a result of radiational cooling, none were advective. I estimate my under canopy areas ran 3-5 degrees warmer than the open yard where the above low temperatures were recorded, based on less damage to similar plants and palms vis a vis the open yard areas.

But in any event, my palm and tropicals garden was almost totally devastated. I'm putting together a Webshots album now showing the freeze damage, now that most of the heretofore latent freeze damage has manifested itself. I will post this album in a day or two at this forum.

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_Keith

When something happens once every 20 years or so it is by definition not expected or normal. The expected value would be close to the average. Today at 80F is not normal its above the expected, but I will take it!

I have to disagree. That it happens every 20 years or so is not the issue. That it happens every 20 years or so on a regular basis is the issue. If it has happened on a fairly regular basis in the past, no matter the interval, and then it happens again, then it could hardly be called unexpected.

You can of course disagree, but to expect the coldest december ever recorded the year after the coldest winter in 30 years would not be expected based on historical data and was not expected by pretty much anyone here. The probability of that happening is very low, therefore not expected on the basis of conditional probability of two successive low probability(1/20??) events.

I'll give you that is unusual, but not unprecidented. Looks like it happened 3 years in a row once before. Take a peak at this, particularly at 81,82, and 83: http://www.google.com/search?q=cold+years+in+florida&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGLL_en#q=history+of+cold+events+florida+citrus&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7GGLL_en&prmd=ivns&tbs=tl:1&tbo=u&ei=WjQ2TefYOdOtgQeb2IyECw&sa=X&oi=timeline_result&ct=title&resnum=11&sqi=2&ved=0CGsQ5wIwCg&fp=6585341b02cf7a84

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floridagrower

Walt,

I'm blown away at your numbers this year. I really feel for you guys inland. This is downright embarrassing for South Florida. Just to illustrate this devastation, I've only hit 20.1 degrees on my lowest in town Tallahassee meter. My bottom in town number last year was 19. The airport, consistently a cold spot, hit 19 officially this season. In town, we typically stay 9A, even in bad years like 2011 & 2010. I cannot imagine how you are keeping your chin up, but if it's any consolation I enjoy your detailed reports and indirect encouragement. Stay strong!

I moved to Highlands County, Florida in 1997. I've been recording winter time low temperatures for the past 13 winters. I can state empirically that I've never experienced two one-month periods like January of 2010 and December of 2010.

In January of 2010 I had 11 straight nights below 40 degrees, and five of them were below 30 degrees. But that pales to what I experienced last month (December 2010).

Using Oregon Scientific digital thermometers and sensors (suspended inside a multi-wrapped pillow case 4 feet above the ground in the open yard) I recorded the following low temperatures (and also listed some official low temperatures at Archbold Biological Station [ABS]8 miles south of me):

Dec. 7th: 25.4 degrees (ABS recorded 19 degrees)

Dec. 8th: 23.9 " (ABS recorded 18 degrees)

Dec. 14th: 25.0 "

Dec. 15th: 22.1 " (tied my previous all-time radiational freeze low of Jan. 5, 2001; ABS recorded 13 degrees on Jan. 5, 2001)

Dec. 16th: 25.3 "

Dec. 28th: 20.9 " (new all-time radiational freeze low. ABS recorded 16 degrees)

Dec. 29th: 23.9 "

The above low temperatures are unprecedented for me. I've never had more than two nights in an entire winter that were in the 20s, let alone in one month -- and let alone in the month of December!

All of the above low temperatures were a result of radiational cooling, none were advective. I estimate my under canopy areas ran 3-5 degrees warmer than the open yard where the above low temperatures were recorded, based on less damage to similar plants and palms vis a vis the open yard areas.

But in any event, my palm and tropicals garden was almost totally devastated. I'm putting together a Webshots album now showing the freeze damage, now that most of the heretofore latent freeze damage has manifested itself. I will post this album in a day or two at this forum.

Edited by floridagrower

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Walt

Walt,

I'm blown away at your numbers this year. I really feel for you guys inland. This is downright embarrassing for South Florida. Just to illustrate this devastation, I've only hit 20.1 degrees on my lowest in town Tallahassee meter. My bottom in town number last year was 19. The airport, consistently a cold spot, hit 19 officially this season. In town, we typically stay 9A, even in bad years like 2011 & 2010. I cannot imagine how you are keeping your chin up, but if it's any consolation I enjoy your detailed reports and indirect encouragement. Stay strong!

I moved to Highlands County, Florida in 1997. I've been recording winter time low temperatures for the past 13 winters. I can state empirically that I've never experienced two one-month periods like January of 2010 and December of 2010.

In January of 2010 I had 11 straight nights below 40 degrees, and five of them were below 30 degrees. But that pales to what I experienced last month (December 2010).

Using Oregon Scientific digital thermometers and sensors (suspended inside a multi-wrapped pillow case 4 feet above the ground in the open yard) I recorded the following low temperatures (and also listed some official low temperatures at Archbold Biological Station [ABS]8 miles south of me):

Dec. 7th: 25.4 degrees (ABS recorded 19 degrees)

Dec. 8th: 23.9 " (ABS recorded 18 degrees)

Dec. 14th: 25.0 "

Dec. 15th: 22.1 " (tied my previous all-time radiational freeze low of Jan. 5, 2001; ABS recorded 13 degrees on Jan. 5, 2001)

Dec. 16th: 25.3 "

Dec. 28th: 20.9 " (new all-time radiational freeze low. ABS recorded 16 degrees)

Dec. 29th: 23.9 "

The above low temperatures are unprecedented for me. I've never had more than two nights in an entire winter that were in the 20s, let alone in one month -- and let alone in the month of December!

All of the above low temperatures were a result of radiational cooling, none were advective. I estimate my under canopy areas ran 3-5 degrees warmer than the open yard where the above low temperatures were recorded, based on less damage to similar plants and palms vis a vis the open yard areas.

But in any event, my palm and tropicals garden was almost totally devastated. I'm putting together a Webshots album now showing the freeze damage, now that most of the heretofore latent freeze damage has manifested itself. I will post this album in a day or two at this forum.

Jeff: I'm amazed at how cold it can get down here in the outlying areas. We have some bad cold pockets, that's for sure. But on radiational cooling nights I've seen temperatures very up to 20 degrees (and more) in Highlands County, depending on location. The Lake Wales Ridge runs down the center of the county, terminating only miles from the south end. High up on the ridge runs 10 degrees or more warmer at night than down off the ridge in low outlying areas. Also, close in around the lakes is much warmer. Citrus groves up on the ridge were unhurt this past December, while some groves down off the ridge incurred minor damage.

Check out this link for the official low temperature at Archbold Biological Station located eight miles south of Lake Placid, Florida: http://www.archbold-station.org/station/html/research/monitoring/climate/climate.html

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gsytch

For me, the amazing part has been the incredible low daytime temps. I mean, I have had 9 days that never reached fifty. In Tampa Bay. In the past six weeks. That is incredible depth of cold. We cannot grow northern perennials because it does not get cold enough here. We cannot quite grow ultra tropicals because it freezes too often. This weekend has gone up, calling for 40f as the lowest then quickly up from there rather than these long-winded, brutal cold spells. Think about it. At 27N the last cold spell saw four consecutive days that never reached 55f and spent more hours in the 30'sf each day. Once the sun set, temps dropped quickly just luckily stabilized the rest of the night. Now, we hope the next few winters are just not so brutal or severe so these poor plants can either come back OR we can replant. I know I am going for hardier plants. Cleaning up has taken way too much time and energy.

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gsytch

Another thing that is occurring to me right as I type this...the Gulf has cooled to 54f. Not only is this near record-cold temps, but it is currently 55.8f at my house with fog and a W breeze...while Orlando is 75f and sunny. Same time. 100 miles to my east, just like California's coast. This makes it difficult to work because it is a damp chill. If we do not get warmer weather, then February will also see afternoon's chilled due to the same seabreeze that saved me from extensive freezes. It dropped to 29f as my low this winter, twice, while you saw the temps near Lake Placid.

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Walt

Another thing that is occurring to me right as I type this...the Gulf has cooled to 54f. Not only is this near record-cold temps, but it is currently 55.8f at my house with fog and a W breeze...while Orlando is 75f and sunny. Same time. 100 miles to my east, just like California's coast. This makes it difficult to work because it is a damp chill. If we do not get warmer weather, then February will also see afternoon's chilled due to the same seabreeze that saved me from extensive freezes. It dropped to 29f as my low this winter, twice, while you saw the temps near Lake Placid.

It hit 80 degrees here yesterday and 82 degrees today. I sometimes say my place inland is somewhat analogous to a desert. It's just dry sugar sand here, nothing to hold heat (body of water, heat island effect, etc.). As such, the temperature swings are much greater, i.e., the lows are lower and the highs are higher, by and large. The ideal set-up for you during the winter is to have a sea (onshore) breeze at night and a easterly (or offshore) breeze during the day. Then you would have the best of both worlds. I believe spockvr6 will vouch for that.

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spockvr6

Another thing that is occurring to me right as I type this...the Gulf has cooled to 54f. Not only is this near record-cold temps, but it is currently 55.8f at my house with fog and a W breeze...while Orlando is 75f and sunny. Same time. 100 miles to my east, just like California's coast. This makes it difficult to work because it is a damp chill. If we do not get warmer weather, then February will also see afternoon's chilled due to the same seabreeze that saved me from extensive freezes. It dropped to 29f as my low this winter, twice, while you saw the temps near Lake Placid.

It hit 80 degrees here yesterday and 82 degrees today. I sometimes say my place inland is somewhat analogous to a desert. It's just dry sugar sand here, nothing to hold heat (body of water, heat island effect, etc.). As such, the temperature swings are much greater, i.e., the lows are lower and the highs are higher, by and large. The ideal set-up for you during the winter is to have a sea (onshore) breeze at night and a easterly (or offshore) breeze during the day. Then you would have the best of both worlds. I believe spockvr6 will vouch for that.

Ill vouch for those best of both world, but its usually the reverse! Never can have that cake and eat it too!

But, this is good as in summer it keeps the highs down a few degrees. So many times Ill see the temp building in summer with flow from the inland, and then by early afternoon, the flow will switch to an onshore one and the temps will stabilize, or even drop a little bit. Of course, as this happens the dewpoint also rises.

I just randomly picked a day in July for a typical plot which shows this behavior. I lucked out and found a good example on the first try!

post-200-022516700 1295478010_thumb.gif

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Walt

Another thing that is occurring to me right as I type this...the Gulf has cooled to 54f. Not only is this near record-cold temps, but it is currently 55.8f at my house with fog and a W breeze...while Orlando is 75f and sunny. Same time. 100 miles to my east, just like California's coast. This makes it difficult to work because it is a damp chill. If we do not get warmer weather, then February will also see afternoon's chilled due to the same seabreeze that saved me from extensive freezes. It dropped to 29f as my low this winter, twice, while you saw the temps near Lake Placid.

It hit 80 degrees here yesterday and 82 degrees today. I sometimes say my place inland is somewhat analogous to a desert. It's just dry sugar sand here, nothing to hold heat (body of water, heat island effect, etc.). As such, the temperature swings are much greater, i.e., the lows are lower and the highs are higher, by and large. The ideal set-up for you during the winter is to have a sea (onshore) breeze at night and a easterly (or offshore) breeze during the day. Then you would have the best of both worlds. I believe spockvr6 will vouch for that.

Ill vouch for those best of both world, but its usually the reverse! Never can have that cake and eat it too!

But, this is good as in summer it keeps the highs down a few degrees. So many times Ill see the temp building in summer with flow from the inland, and then by early afternoon, the flow will switch to an onshore one and the temps will stabilize, or even drop a little bit. Of course, as this happens the dewpoint also rises.

I just randomly picked a day in July for a typical plot which shows this behavior. I lucked out and found a good example on the first try!

That's why I was clear about the best worlds being during the winter time. In summer, if you get an easterly or southeasterly air flow, you can actually get hotter than points inland because the air flow picks up all of the inland heat as it crosses the peninsula, and by the time it gets to the west coast it's absorbed its maximum heat.

Around 6 p.m. today it was only 60 degrees at Clearwater Beach (due to sea breeze of the relatively cold Gulf) and 77 degrees in Sebring!

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Dave-Vero

The Gulf can get surprisingly cold. There's a widespread misconception that the Atlantic is necessarily colder in winter. Not that the lunchtime surfers at Sebastian Inlet weren't wearing their wetsuits yesterday.

Westerly air flow can indeed cook the Atlantic coast. Our 100 degree days last summer were of that sort. Similarly, NW windflow in winter can make Vero as cold as Daytona or Ocala. A few spots have reasonably effective shelter. Melbourne Beach is separated from the mainland by an exceptionally wide Indian River, which seems to be worth a few degrees even on horrible nights.

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Takil-Explorer

I guess if you want to grow realy tropical plants in Florida you should chose a place where the COLDRECORDS are above or at least not under 0 Celcius! Then you can plant anything witohout to worry about. And I guess the Atlantic coast is milder as it gets the Gulfstream, the Mexican gulf gets colder in winter.

In NW Europe before 2010 we had arround 14 mild winters so people started to grow more tender plants. In England and Ireland some gardens where desimated! Lots of dead palms, Cordylines etcetera. In our part of the world we try to grow plants wich give that exotic look wich is so differend from the native stuff wich looks awfull in winter. Well in summer its a differend thing.

For areas in Florida where you get some off frost, there should be enough nice plants from places like South Africa, Australia and South America!

Alexander

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amazondk

I guess if you want to grow realy tropical plants in Florida you should chose a place where the COLDRECORDS are above or at least not under 0 Celcius! Then you can plant anything witohout to worry about. And I guess the Atlantic coast is milder as it gets the Gulfstream, the Mexican gulf gets colder in winter.

In NW Europe before 2010 we had arround 14 mild winters so people started to grow more tender plants. In England and Ireland some gardens where desimated! Lots of dead palms, Cordylines etcetera. In our part of the world we try to grow plants wich give that exotic look wich is so differend from the native stuff wich looks awfull in winter. Well in summer its a differend thing.

For areas in Florida where you get some off frost, there should be enough nice plants from places like South Africa, Australia and South America!

Alexander

Alexander,

There are a lot of plants that grow around here that will die if the temperature gets anywhere near 0 C. That being said there are still an enormous variety of plants that can be grown in Florida.

dk

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sonoranfans

I guess if you want to grow realy tropical plants in Florida you should chose a place where the COLDRECORDS are above or at least not under 0 Celcius! Then you can plant anything witohout to worry about. And I guess the Atlantic coast is milder as it gets the Gulfstream, the Mexican gulf gets colder in winter.

Generally true but not always the case. This winter miami was 3 degrees colder than anna maria island(well north of miami @mouth of tampa bay) on the coldest night on the west coast. When the wind is coming fromt he northwest, it comes off the water on the west coast, but off the land on the east coast. It is true that the atlantic ocean is warmer thn the gulf in winter, but if the wind is coming off the land on the east coast and off the water on the west coast it might be colder on the east coast for the same latitude. But on average, miami is warmer in the lows and the highs. Extreme cold events do tend to be northwesterly in origin though.

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Kailua_Krish

For areas in Florida where you get some off frost, there should be enough nice plants from places like South Africa, Australia and South America!

Alexander

This is something that is very difficult for people to understand who dont live here. The heat and drought we get, along with the severe cold spells occasionally, severely limit plants that can be grown in some of the inland areas of Florida. It is much too hot, humid, and dry (I know that sounds like an oxymoron but growing in Florida sand makes it a reality) for most plants that are cold tolerant and yet it gets too cold here for many of the tropicals. The heavy frost we gets precludes the usage of many plants that are from dryer areas because while they are cold tolerant they lack frost tolerance. Weeds grow and smother out many slower growing plants due to our hot and long growing season. On top of all this, between the nematodes in our soil and the abundance of fungal pathogens that live in Florida, any plant that survives here has to be incredibly tough. That is why if you look at the older landscapes in inland peninsular Florida you'll see that there isnt a broad diversity of plants used, instead they seem to be the same types used again and again: natives and subtropical lily-types (i.e. crinums, ect). Dont get me wrong, I love our native Magnolia's, palms, and other plants, but there are only so many you can see before they become much too repetitive.

-Krishna

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