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burned down palm forest in Europe


greekpalm

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A great reason or example of why they are "PHOENIX" palms? (rising from the ashes)

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Zone 10a at best after 2007 AND 2013, on SW facing hill, 1 1/2 miles from coast in Oceanside, CA. 30-98 degrees, and 45-80deg. about 95% of the time.

"The great workman of nature is time."   ,  "Genius is nothing but a great aptitude for patience."

-George-Louis Leclerc de Buffon-

I do some experiments and learning in my garden with palms so you don't have to experience the pain! Look at my old threads to find various observations and tips!

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Greek Palm!

Thanks for sharing!

Phoenix don't die easily, not from some little fire.

They suffered damage, but, as a whole, came through well.

Theos are tough as nails . . . and about as much fun to hug . . . .

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Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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Time to dance to celebrate . . .

Χορός! Γιορτάστε!

Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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well at least lets dance something from Crete ! (and yes what you see on the ground and what they are throwing is money....)

Edited by greekpalm
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USDA Hardiness Zones 9b to 10a

AHS Heat Zones 8

altitude 100 meters (320 Feet)

4 km (2,4 Miles) from the Mediterranean

16716.gif

lowest ever recorded temperature -4 C (24 F)

maximum ever recored temperature 45 C (113 F)

mean minimum temperature January 7 C (44 F)

mean maximum temperature January 14 C (57 F)

mean minimum temperature July 23 C (74 F)

mean maximum temperature July 33 C (92 F)

average annual rainfall 330mm (13 Inch)

average annual sunshine 2800 hours

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It does not look like there are many casualties at all. I have seen fire scars on P canariensis and they seems to pull through alright. Thanks for sharing.

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Wel, thay have recovered veery well! And maybe a bushfire means nothing to them. Many Mediterranean plants are well adapted to bushfires now and them, many actually need those bushfires for there survival! You see that in place like South Africa, California, Australia and also Europe. Another mediterrane tree Quercus suber has it thick cork layer to protect it from fire. I have seen them ones in Spain along the Costa Brava a month or so after a intense fire wich had caused a lot of damage in that are. Well the cork-oak had fresh green sprouting from the black trunks.

Many palmspecies from savana habitats are also adapted to bush fires. Well you often see black burntraces on the trunks. Butias also, they can survive bushfires. Grazing however is another matter. Strange that fire worries people more then grazing in many parts of the world. Grazing is often more harmfull it seems, especially in ecosystems where grazing did not occur.

Alexander

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Hi Manoli,

thanks for the pics. It is really amazing to see how fast they have recovered. I did expect the forest to recover but not in that short time! I think Greece would be much greener with more palm forests :D

@Alexander: I remeber, when I visited that forest a few years ago, I saw a group of three or four tall Theos with burnt trunks but a full and healthy green-silvery crowns. So I think the palms (and other mediterranean plants) can handle one blaze, but when the fire rages a second time over the same spot, they would probably be dead. Even pines are able to recover, although the fires in pine forests generate of the highest temperatures you can experience, compared to other forests. And thats the big problem especially in Greece. The wind sends the fires from one side to the other and back. And even many hours after the blaze is extinguished, it happens many times, that the fire starts again. Maybe because the fire fighters do not extinguish the fire thoroughly or so...!?

However I hope that will never happen again!

Greetings

Janni

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The problem is that people in Southern Europe often put local areas inti fire because of grazing, neglicense or more recently for development! And then there is that widespread corruption! Those naturally fires, caused by lightening however happen only now and then. Not like you see now with every year many wildfires!

Alexander

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  • 4 years later...
On 12/16/2010, 9:40:35, greekpalm said:

 

Yes a guy who specializes in phoenix theophrasti found a dozen of specimens hidden in a pine forest in Epidaurus. Phoenix palms can be seen on many ancient Greek potteries.

I was recently in Epidaurus and I found 9 living (including one seedling) and one dying palm on beach just behind the town. No doubt that these palms are P. Theophrasti, but in my opinion somebody planted them 60-80 years ago. Palms looks OK, the dying palm was put down mechanically. Plants have lot of fruits, only one has elongated fruits (dying one) other fruits are of normal oval size. But very few fruits have kernel, probably not more than 1%.  I have some apparently fertile fruits, so I plant them in my greenhouse. I would be very curious if there are any other P. theophrasti in this area, some people speak about palm forest and Ligourio site. Ligourio is about 10 km inland direction and it would be miracle to find palm forest there. I tried via Google maps, but no results. 

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On 14. 12. 2010, greekpalm said:

there are were only 2 naturally made palm forests in Europe. While Elche, Spain (Phoenix dactylifera) being the only man made palm forest in Europe.

 

 

 

The naturally made palm forests are situated in Crete, Greece (Phoenix theophrasti).

i quote from wikipedia (just being lazy to write)

"... a very restricted distribution confined in southern Greece to a few sites as in Crete "

and

" These are found in other Greek places too and especially in Amorgos island in four sites, in Anafi island there is a core on a beach at the south coast and recently have been found the last 10 palm trees of an ancient palm forest in Epidaurus area in Peloponnese and it is the only natural Phoenix theophrasti growing in mainland Greece. For this reason, it is said that in Ancient Greece there were many palm forests growing from Crete to Thebes and from the Peloponnese to Delos."

( http://en.wikipedia....nix_theophrasti )

 

From the article on wikipedia one could conclude that the forests are regressing from ancient times.

Until the 21st of August there were only two forests on the planet

 

 

Greekpalm, I recently visited beach close to Epidaurus town and I found 9 specimen of P. Theophrasti and one dying palm. But they seems to be planted by somebody, probably 50-60+ years ago. I maybe be wrong, here 20-30. this location could look quite differently 20-30 years ago. Palms forms 3 groups around the beach, one group, 2 palms, is in private land, behind the fence. I read lot of confusing information about Peloponnesos date palms, also about elongated fruits, only one palm seems to have this type of fruits, others had normal oval fruits (but only 1%  with kernels). This particular palm is almost dead, it felt down or somebody helped it to fall. I am not excluding that there is another group, some people were writing about Ligourio area, which is inland, about 10 km from Epidauros. But it would be incredible miracle to find remnants of ancient palm forest there ... I would be grateful about any information. P. theophrasti is my most favourite palm and I visited most of Crete locations (I particularly like area around Souda beach) and I like new young palms east of  Agios Pavlos. Preveli is probably the most beautiful location and I am very glad to hear that palms in this area survived.  

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On 8/4/2011, 11:59:16, greekpalm said:

well at least lets dance something from Crete ! (and yes what you see on the ground and what they are throwing is money....)

 

Greekpalm!

Are there any palms in Crete to share? (Or dances?)

Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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  • 5 months later...
On 14/12/2010, 10:29:06, DoomsDave said:

Manolis:

 

First, it's great that you're keeping an eye on them. Someone obviously needs to. Too bad about the [non] firemen. They appear to be a naturally endangered species.

 

But, the good part is that Pheonix theos are just the toughest [expletive expletived oedpepal expletives] around. They make Phoenix canariensis look like wussies (almost) by comparison.

 

I'll bet that the majority not only survive, but new babies will spring up and carpet the ground. In a year or two. Our native washies have incredible resistance to really horrible fires.

 

Fire can renew, in other words. That said, I don't blame you for feeling sad about the pictures.

 

Keep us apprized, good or bad.

What a resurection of a thread! Maybe I had already mentioned it before but just in case I had missed it, I had gathered in Preveli seeds from the ground in the early 00's after a similar fire in the previous year. They were roasted but nevertheless they sprouted! Despite first impression, fire had rather protected seeds from borers. BTW fire in this particular stand is not set by natives but rather by silly, unscrupulous drunken or stoned TOURISTS who fancy to have Bbq or a night party inside the forest.

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On 14/12/2010, 11:29:58, greekpalm said:

 

what do you mean by "both forms" ? do you know where ? ( if you can give me coordinates?)

 

 

BTW when i visited Preveli a few years ago there where a few palm who where black.. possibly by a previous fire... not sure it also could be something else...

post-5120-074940600 1292362188_thumb.jpg

Yep, same question from me, what both forms is supposed to mean?

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C have a specimen with a crown corresponding in every respect the description of theo but it has a thick trunk and an almost absent caespitose habit. A French nursery used to to offer such a robust cultivar. I wonder if it's this what Colin has been trying to point out...

Edited by Phoenikakias
Correction
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9 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

What a resurection of a thread! Maybe I had already mentioned it before but just in case I had missed it, I had gathered in Preveli seeds from the ground in the early 00's after a similar fire in the previous year. They were roasted but nevertheless they sprouted! Despite first impression, fire had rather protected seeds from borers. BTW fire in this particular stand is not set by natives but rather by silly, unscrupulous drunken or stoned TOURISTS who fancy to have Bbq or a night party inside the forest.

How about a picture of your babies?

Yeah, we have tourists who set fires, here. Sometimes, they're too drunk to get to the palm forest, so they burn down the tavern . . . . :) 

 

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Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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22 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

C have a specimen with a crown corresponding in every respect the description of theo but it has a thick trunk and an almost absent caespitose habit. A French nursery used to to offer such a robust cultivar. I wonder if it's this what Colin has been trying to point out...

Kind of like these?

DSC00702.JPG

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Martin Farris, San Angelo, TX

San Angelo Cold Hardy Palms and Cycads

Jul - 92F/69F, Jan - 55F/31F

Lows:

02-03: 18F;

03-04: 19F;

04-05: 17F;

05-06: 11F;

06-07: 13F;

07-08: 14F 147.5 Freezing Degree-Hours http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?sh...ee+hours\;

08-09: 23F;

09-10: 12F 467.6 Freezing Degree Hours, Average Temperature During Freeze 24.2F;

10-11: 13F 1,059.5 Freezing Degree Hours with Strong Winds/Rain/Snow/Sleet, Average Temperature During Freeze 19.4F;

Record low -4F in 1989 (High of 36F that p.m.) 1,125.2 freezing degree hours, Average Temperature During Freeze 13.6F;

Record Freeze 1983: 2,300.3 Freezing Degree Hours with a low of 5F, Average Temperature During Freeze 13.7F.

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4 hours ago, mjff said:

Kind of like these?

DSC00702.JPG

Yeah, pretty much alike, I must dig up recent pictures. Only my own specimen is still shorter.

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5 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

How about a picture of your babies?

Yeah, we have tourists who set fires, here. Sometimes, they're too drunk to get to the palm forest, so they burn down the tavern . . . . :) 

 

As long as they do not bother the pianist ain't that bad...:excl:

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7 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

Yeah, pretty much alike, I must dig up recent pictures. Only my own specimen is still shorter.

Well I mean the specimen on the left. My own it has maybe more plumose leaves,  but again this can be attributable to drier conditions, which cause shorter and stiffer leaflets.

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15 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

How about a picture of your babies?

Yeah, we have tourists who set fires, here. Sometimes, they're too drunk to get to the palm forest, so they burn down the tavern . . . . :) 

 

Here the two younger ones from seeds gathered on Preveli. Note the difference in caespitose habit between both. The one with few offshoots is male.

IMG_20160823_105404.thumb.jpg.17c01aa7dd

Edited by Phoenikakias
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Here's the one with the thicker trunk; it has also a weak suckering trait and it also male! Flip flop serving for scale, sorry no sneakers available during summer timeIMG_20160823_110046.thumb.jpg.3013cc64cd

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The big one has extended black color on petioles and leaf bases (unfortunately no orange like on many specimen in Vai).

IMG_20160823_110232.thumb.jpg.beac0a78db

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6 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

Now with the flop flop of same size another specimen with the intense caespitose habit.

IMG_20160823_110219.thumb.jpg.ec59e1e975

Hi,

Why are your theos are all rich green in colour resembling the leaf colour of a cidp or rupie ?

I had 3 theos here,all were faint blueish with jet black fronds scar area...making their trunk look blackish.

They all came from italy. 2 were given to friends and remaining one is growing in local park nearby.

Love,

Kris.

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love conquers all..

43278.gif

.

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   Hi Kris, only lower fronds and new offshoots are green, every other part exposed to sun is silver. If you check thoroughly pictures in their habit at you will find out that they are greener there because of adequate water and greater air moisture and probably also lower ph. But the description of your plants is very reminiscent of my own plants.

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