burned down palm forest in Europe

[greekpalm]

there are were only 2 naturally made palm forests in Europe. While Elche, Spain (Phoenix dactylifera) being the only man made palm forest in Europe.

The naturally made palm forests are situated in Crete, Greece (Phoenix theophrasti).

i quote from wikipedia (just being lazy to write)

"... a very restricted distribution confined in southern Greece to a few sites as in Crete "

and

" These are found in other Greek places too and especially in Amorgos island in four sites, in Anafi island there is a core on a beach at the south coast and recently have been found the last 10 palm trees of an ancient palm forest in Epidaurus area in Peloponnese and it is the only natural Phoenix theophrasti growing in mainland Greece. For this reason, it is said that in Ancient Greece there were many palm forests growing from Crete to Thebes and from the Peloponnese to Delos."

( http://en.wikipedia....nix_theophrasti )

From the article on wikipedia one could conclude that the forests are regressing from ancient times.

Until the 21st of August there were only two forests on the planet

[greekpalm]

1) Vai, Crete

[greekpalm]

2) Preveli, Crete

[greekpalm]

on the 22th of august a fire broke out a few miles away from the palm forest (which is situated in a gorge). the high winds (up to 10 Beaufort) and the incompetence of the Greek state (who received a few million euros to protect the forest but instead preferred to invest it in their own pocket)

So here are the results

[greekpalm]

Some say a few palm survived the fires and will revive.

only time will tell (maybe next summer)

[carver]

Looks like many of them are pushing out some green, great photos, beautiful area.

[cfkingfish]

I bet they come back!

[Kev Spence]

Manolis,

Thanks for posting those shots we had heard there had been a devastating fire on our uk forum but not many pics.

They may, as others suggest, make a comeback but that area is going take many many years before it looks a lush as it did before...

[paulgila]

here in southern california you can see evidence of old fires in native washingtonia groves & they seem to show no more lasting effects than some charred spots on the trunks.

[amazondk]

Nice pictures. I would bet that a lot of the palms will pull through. Many of the palms here get burned and bounce right back. Since these palms come from rather dry areas it would seem that may have some adaptation to fire.

dk

[cfkingfish]

The reason I see them coming back is that as a Coryphoid palm, and a subtropical one at that, it has a very protected crown and meristem. If this happened in Borneo, Arecas and Pinangas would be melted in a second. The fire could not burn as hot too, due to the lack of vegetation surrounding it. I have faith in them!

Are they naturally clumping there, or do they just grow really close and away from one another?

[DoomsDave]

Manolis:

First, it's great that you're keeping an eye on them. Someone obviously needs to. Too bad about the [non] firemen. They appear to be a naturally endangered species.

But, the good part is that Pheonix theos are just the toughest [expletive expletived oedpepal expletives] around. They make Phoenix canariensis look like wussies (almost) by comparison.

I'll bet that the majority not only survive, but new babies will spring up and carpet the ground. In a year or two. Our native washies have incredible resistance to really horrible fires.

Fire can renew, in other words. That said, I don't blame you for feeling sad about the pictures.

Keep us apprized, good or bad.

[palmtreesforpleasure]

There is a larger forest of them in Turkey, which is the only place you find both forms and the area is continuing to expand with many younger plants. It is isolated, so hopefully will remain safe. Hopefully the burnt grove will come back stronger than ever

regards

colin

[greekpalm]

There is a larger forest of them in Turkey, which is the only place you find both forms and the area is continuing to expand with many younger plants. It is isolated, so hopefully will remain safe. Hopefully the burnt grove will come back stronger than ever

regards

colin

what do you mean by "both forms" ? do you know where ? ( if you can give me coordinates?)

BTW when i visited Preveli a few years ago there where a few palm who where black.. possibly by a previous fire... not sure it also could be something else...

[Kostas]

Most likely almost all of them will have already made a comeback I saw Phoenix canariensis that where burned during the wildfires in Peloponissos and they all,along with the Washies,made a strong comeback right away

[palmsOrl]

My heart sunk as I started reading, but when I looked at the photos, I was relieved. I think it will regenerate with time.

Michael

[WestCoastGal]

Thanks for posting the before and after photos. What a beautiful "before" area to visit. I don't think I saw whether this was the result of natural causes or not. Curious if they know?

It was hard seeing the palms and landscape toasted like this but thankfully nature is pretty amazing at rebounding and the site of new growth is heartening.

[mlovecan]

There is a larger forest of them in Turkey, which is the only place you find both forms and the area is continuing to expand with many younger plants. It is isolated, so hopefully will remain safe. Hopefully the burnt grove will come back stronger than ever

regards

colin

what do you mean by "both forms" ? do you know where ? ( if you can give me coordinates?)

BTW when i visited Preveli a few years ago there where a few palm who where black.. possibly by a previous fire... not sure it also could be something else...

Minoli,

Colin was cruising in a sailboat in the Aegean when he posted this ( he does have the co-ordinates ) :

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=1957&st=0&p=30966&hl=turkey&fromsearch=1&#entry30966

He described the location to me as being "straight across from Rhodes". That could only be the Datca Peninsula location - right around Simi. That area is a little confusing as to what country you're in as Simi is pretty much surrounded by Turkey and there are a couple of little islands and twists and bends to further throw you off.

There are two other locations where Phoenix theophrastii are found in Turkey - one is South of Antalya and the other is near Bodrum.

Regards

Maurice

[mlovecan]

Thanks for posting the before and after photos. What a beautiful "before" area to visit. I don't think I saw whether this was the result of natural causes or not. Curious if they know?

It was hard seeing the palms and landscape toasted like this but thankfully nature is pretty amazing at rebounding and the site of new growth is heartening.

Many Greek fires end up to be man-made - it's commonly a method to "free up" land for real estate development. Fortunately the police are very good and finding out who sets them. Unfortunately a lot of lives are lost.

Regardless of the cause of this particular fire, it is a sad fact the Vai population has been set on fire many times - just for "fun". It has bounced back each time but now when you visit Vai Beach, the very beautiful palms are surrounded by quite an ugly chainlink fence.

Regards

Maurice

[DoomsDave]

There is a larger forest of them in Turkey, which is the only place you find both forms and the area is continuing to expand with many younger plants. It is isolated, so hopefully will remain safe. Hopefully the burnt grove will come back stronger than ever

regards

colin

what do you mean by "both forms" ? do you know where ? ( if you can give me coordinates?)

BTW when i visited Preveli a few years ago there where a few palm who where black.. possibly by a previous fire... not sure it also could be something else...

I'd say that's fire damage.

Little babies get toasted, but adults and large babies don't.

They've been in that spot probably since before there were even people . . . .

[chakoro]

Hi,growing up in western queensland australia i can remember as a kid, going to visit a homestead on a cattle property that my ancestors settled in the 1900`s.As they had to be self sufficient they had planted a number of fruit trees.To my surprise all that remained after countless bush fires was two date palms and a mullberry tree. regards Craig.

[Alicehunter2000]

Excellent post and pictures...thanks.

Even our native S. palmetto's come back after forest fires...I also have hope these will regenerate.

[mjff]

That is pretty sad, but it does appear that many of the palms will survive. The Greek government and EU, far less certain.

[mlovecan]

That is pretty sad, but it does appear that many of the palms will survive. The Greek government and EU, far less certain.

I have faith in all three.

The palms can take the fires - the Vai beach population is doing just fine despite the many fires in the past.

The Greek spirit is bigger than life.

EU trade agreements cannot be reversed and the Euro has done quite well against the US dollar since introduction.

Regards

Maurice

[ixigena]

The reason I see them coming back is that as a Coryphoid palm, and a subtropical one at that, it has a very protected crown and meristem. If this happened in Borneo, Arecas and Pinangas would be melted in a second. The fire could not burn as hot too, due to the lack of vegetation surrounding it. I have faith in them!

Are they naturally clumping there, or do they just grow really close and away from one another?

Had happened in Borneo and Sumatra Indonesia. Some years ago. Forest land clearing thousand of hectares then the government let the palm oil company took over. Many indigenous/endangered species extinct.

[oliver]

Can't believe that this has not been mentioned yet in this thread, considering all the scholars that are surfing this board, but is not the Phoenix a mythical Greek bird that is reborn from its own ashes after being burned. Sounds like it is a part of it's existance to have this happen!

[Takil-Explorer]

I had never heard of Phoenix theophrastii growing on the mainland of Greece! Its a shame they burn forest there all the time! And the corruption there must be dealed with! Its a scandal!

Alexander

[greekpalm]

I had never heard of Phoenix theophrastii growing on the mainland of Greece! Its a shame they burn forest there all the time! And the corruption there must be dealed with! Its a scandal!

Alexander

Yes a guy who specializes in phoenix theophrasti found a dozen of specimens hidden in a pine forest in Epidaurus. Phoenix palms can be seen on many ancient Greek potteries.

[greekpalm]

Can't believe that this has not been mentioned yet in this thread, considering all the scholars that are surfing this board, but is not the Phoenix a mythical Greek bird that is reborn from its own ashes after being burned. Sounds like it is a part of it's existance to have this happen!

you're totally right !

[floridagrower]

I thought dates liked their head in the fire and feet in the water?

They do controlled burns down at the coast and there are no ill effects to the native palms. I believe those will be fine too. It's still sad to see.

[merrillwx]

Hi, Greekpalm [in #4]:

I imagine you fellows that burn off dead fronds have observed some spectacular fires, as have I. I cleaned the fronds off a three-trunked Phoenix canariensis X P. reclinata by a spectacular almost instantaneous fire, was impressed that, unlike post #4, The fronds burned off completely cleanly. There were no parts of fronds left whatsoever!

Best Wishes.

merrill

[sarasota alex]

Thanks for the great pictures. In the summer of 2008 I stumbled upon a couple of acres of burned down Serenoa repens. Only the stems were left. Most already began to produce their first leaf which didn't open yet and the whole area looked like a bunch of giant black snakes with green tongues. Looked kinda cool. When I went back there in the summer of 2010, I couldn't even find which area it was. Two years was enough to recover completely. Hopefully these Phoenix theophrasti would recover just as quickly.

Although, unfortunately, I've never been to Greece or Turkey, but I've seen a lot of pictures. Looks like there is quite a few other Phoenix palms in cultivation - canariensis, dactylifera, sometimes roebelenii. That would be more of a threat to native P. theophrasti population, than any fire.

[DoomsDave]

That is pretty sad, but it does appear that many of the palms will survive. The Greek government and EU, far less certain.

I have faith in all three.

The palms can take the fires - the Vai beach population is doing just fine despite the many fires in the past.

The Greek spirit is bigger than life.

EU trade agreements cannot be reversed and the Euro has done quite well against the US dollar since introduction.

Regards

Maurice

The Greek Spirit certainly is bigger than life . ..

HOPA

Or however you spell it.

This forest fire is nothing. NOTHING.

Unless you're in it.

that said . . .

[Janni]

Hi everyone,

good news from Crete. Seems like the palm forest of Preveli has recovered itself, like many of you predicted. The regional government took some protection measures, but I think the only important one was the protection from the goats - the rest was nature's work. Not only the Phoenix Theophrastii recovered also all the other plants did so.

I'm very happy about the progress, beause I visited the place in 2001 and 2005 and it is really amazing. Now I know that I can come back again some time...

For those who can read greek, here is a link: http://www.econews.gr/2011/04/01/foinikodasos-preveli-anagennisi/

Greetings from Germany

Janni

[palmtreesforpleasure]

Both forms come from one place in a desolate place in turkey

When i heard how rare they are i decided not to publish the co-ordinates as there has been many instances of collectors raping and pillaging remaining area's of many species

Kew knows where they are and it has been used as a collection point to re establish them. Some botanical gardens grow them as part of an international conservation project. The botanical gardens in Gran Canaries has such a project.

regards

colin

There is a larger forest of them in Turkey, which is the only place you find both forms and the area is continuing to expand with many younger plants. It is isolated, so hopefully will remain safe. Hopefully the burnt grove will come back stronger than ever

regards

colin

Notice how they grow up the valley and along the rocky beach. It get to 45-59 c her in August and get salt laden 50-60 knot gales in Winter , below 0c

what do you mean by "both forms" ? do you know where ? ( if you can give me coordinates?)

BTW when i visited Preveli a few years ago there where a few palm who where black.. possibly by a previous fire... not sure it also could be something else...

[DoomsDave]

HOPA!

TANZEN TANZEN IN DEN AUTOBAHN . . .

[greekpalm]

Hi everyone,

good news from Crete. Seems like the palm forest of Preveli has recovered itself, like many of you predicted. The regional government took some protection measures, but I think the only important one was the protection from the goats - the rest was nature's work. Not only the Phoenix Theophrastii recovered also all the other plants did so.

I'm very happy about the progress, beause I visited the place in 2001 and 2005 and it is really amazing. Now I know that I can come back again some time...

For those who can read greek, here is a link: http://www.econews.g...eli-anagennisi/

Greetings from Germany

Janni

Thank you Gianni !

[greekpalm]

for those who are interested in the article

here is a google translated version

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=el&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.econews.gr%2F2011%2F04%2F01%2Ffoinikodasos-preveli-anagennisi%2F

and here is a second one

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=el&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.econews.gr%2F2010%2F12%2F17%2Fnews-foinikodasos-prevelis-2%2F

[greekpalm]

a few days ago i visited preveli again.. here are the updates 11 months after the fire !

[greekpalm]

.