Mostly Palms here

[Al in Kona]

It's not often that you find places where monocots are the dominant feature in a landscape.  This pic taken recently at the Kona Coast Resort, Kailua-Kona, Hawaii is lacking dicots.  Do you like the "look" or should more broad leaf evergreens be incorporated into the landscape?  Any thoughts on this?  What's your opinion?

What are the two palms in the forefront?

[Al in Kona]

Looking in another direction of the same area . . .

[MattyB]

Hi Al,  looks like V. joannis?  I think that the use of Bamboo, Ficus, and other tall tropical looking plants is better than just palms.  But then again, most of Bo's pictures have only palms in them (if you can't see the Ohia) and it looks mighty fine.

[Al in Kona]

Strictly Coconuts here planted in a lawn with flowers (impatients) planted at their base - at the famous Royal Hawaiian Hotel in Waikiki.  Do the dicots in the background help to show off the Coconuts?  

Two grandkids in foreground to add scale.

[Neofolis]

As far as I am concerned other trees spoil the look of a palmy landscape, unless they are cycads or bananas of course.  I dare say from a landscapers point of view, it is considered somewhat boring to not incorporate trees from various families.

[bgl]

I don't have anything against dicots, but any landscaper who claims that landscaping with palms only is boring is an ignorant landscaper, and probably doesn't know too much about palms!!

[Al in Kona]

I'd certainly agree with you Bo in that many landscapers, if not most, are quite ignorant about most palm speces.  They probably got their degrees or training from temperate climate institutions.

[Neofolis]

I was speculating when suggesting that landscapers may consider it boring.  Certainly in tourist destinations I have seen many occasions where only palms have been used, I was just assuming that to someone not bitten by the palm bug, there may be a preference for greater diversity of form, even though palms can provide considerable diversity.

[Zac in NC]

Well, Al, you ask where the dicots are. I'll tell you where they are.....They are here.....everywhere!!!!!!!!! That is all they plant here. Great pics Al.

Zac

[Jeff Searle]

(bgl @ Dec. 27 2006,19:30)

QUOTE

I don't have anything against dicots, but any landscaper who claims that landscaping with palms only is boring is an ignorant landscaper, and probably doesn't know too much about palms!!

Bo,

I assume your kidding some, right? Don't get me wrong, I love palms as much as anyone, been doing it a long time,but.........if you polled a 100 landscapers/ LA(lndsp. arct.) and asked them, YOU would be sorely mistaken.And these 100 people could be from tropical areas, not all from temperate areas.Think about it!  And I'm a palm nut, and you have a great collection , about the best private yard, I'v seen.But, you and I and most of these other people on this forum would plant all palms in their yards, if conditions would allow. But, there has to be a good mix. Character! And what about color?? Palms are just one element in a landscape. Landscape vs. Palmscape?

Jeff

[Al in Kona]

No dicots here.  This Southern California palm garden belongs to Ralph Velez - guess he doesn't think dicots are necessary either.  Now he knows how to use his limited space well.

[Al in Kona]

Using only palms in this Kona, Hawaii garden- as seen from the street.

For visual ID practice, can you name the palms used here?

[SunnyFl]

(Al in Kona @ Dec. 27 2006,18:05)

QUOTE

What are the two palms in the forefront?

Beautiful!  that's what they are.

I don't think I'd absolutely need dicots in a garden, if there was a nice palmy mix of different heights, fronds etc.  OTOH, I do love the combination of palms with tropical flowering shrubs and crotons to add bodacious color to the garden.

[bgl]

Jeff,

No, I certainly wasn't kidding. But pay attention to what I said at the beginning "I have nothing against dicots...". I obviously realize that most people, even here in Hawaii (or any tropical area), may want diversity, and that's fine. It WOULD be boring if everyone just planted palms, but I don't think we're at any risk there. Polling 100 landscapers in LA wouldn't tell us anything except their own personal preferences, prejudices, and yes, ignorance. If you polled 10,000 people 600 years ago, chances are that 9999 would have insisted that the earth is flat, so a poll is useless when you're asking people about something they know little about. And my whole point was that the overwhelming number of landscapers (and I have talked to quite a few, both in CA and here in HI) don't know much about palms. If a palm enthusiast asked the average landscaper to design a 100% palm garden for them, they would have to do a LOT of research. And the fact is, as we both know, that there is a lot of variety when it comes to palms; shape, size and color as well as growth rate, which is a very important component in designing a garden. I took all of those aspects into consideration when I designed our garden. I also obviously used the existing Ohi'a trees (even though we did cut down a bunch of them), but I can honestly say that if we had bought a piece of land with no dicots, I certainly would not have planted any and I know for a fact that I would still have been able to create a garden that would be anything but boring! Even, or maybe ESPECIALLY, to non-palm people.

Bo-Göran

[DoomsDave]

Hmm.

This is a PALM FORUM?

And, someone's suggesting planting SOMETHING ELSE?

Need I say more?  (Serious merits whatever . . . )

dave

[Kris]

(Neofolis @ Dec. 27 2006,20:03)

QUOTE

I was speculating when suggesting that landscapers may consider it boring.  Certainly in tourist destinations I have seen many occasions where only palms have been used, I was just assuming that to someone not bitten by the palm bug, there may be a preference for greater diversity of form, even though palms can provide considerable diversity.

I agree with neofolis on this one !

And using coconut trees in public place is a big no no..

they are very productive cash crop kind of palm_but

needs manual removing of the leaves & coco nuts,if not

done in time.it is very hazards to old people & children

seated below.because they will be taken by surprise

when those stuff lands on the ground on breezy afternoon.

And all the stills looked monotonus in the landscape field

same palms every where.i personally feel veriety is a must

and i do not see any flowering plant or trees at all ?

But i honestly believe that taste differs & our house garden

itself is a testimony where variety is the 'Mantra'.

though i have not done it with an eye on landscape.

as the proverb goes_One man's food is another man's poision.

so i end my observation saying that every indugual garden is

unique !

Love,

Kris.

[chris.oz]

Whats a dicot Al?

[redant]

I use a mix as my property had many beautiful oaks and pines when I purchased it. Well the hurricanes did in most of the oaks, the pines are dying like crazy due to bark beetles that followed the hurricanes. I have replanted some oaks and a bunch of flowering trees and several mango and citrus trees but go heavy on the palms. I worry about going only palm as I know many of the ones I prefer to plant could be wiped out in a single freeze like Christmas of 89, leaving my huge yard a baron landscape.

Keeping hurricanes and freezes in mind I have used many types of trees and palms in my yard. I even plant ones I may not be crazy about (think Phoenix) because I know they will survive the 89 freeze or another hurricane.

[Jeff Searle]

NO long winded REPLY, it's senseless. Neofolius, SunnyFl and Redant like myself have our blinders off.

Jeff

[bgl]

Wow, Al's thread took an interesting turn here... ???

Jeff,

maybe I didn't explain myself too well. I certainly agree that to landscape with a combination of dicots and palm trees is a great look. I just happen to believe that to limit oneself, i.e. to a combination of dicots and palm trees for instance, is to keep "your blinders on", as you put it. A landscaper who is good at what he, or she, is doing should be able to create an interesting garden, whether it's the above combination OR palm trees only OR dicots only.

Bo-Göran

[sebastian]

It could also be said a good landscaper is a clever landscaper who will create a garden that is as low maintance as possible but still look good.

Personally i dont like the look of palms mixed with trees but thats just me, but i also see it as a maintance issue,the photo's at the top may look a bit barron in a sence but it would be a fairly low maintance garden compared to if there was large trees.

I must say though I do like the use of smaller plants that dont grow to big and are realitevely low maintance to fill in such as nandina domestica, crotons,philodendrons, cordylines,cycads, yuccas, bromeliads, lomandra sp and other grasses ,among many others.

I also think palms in general have many advantages over most trees, particulary in public or comercial areas where money must be spent on maintance,where it is better to have a well maintaned low maintance garden then a never ending battle with leaves, the same can be said in residential gardens and low maintance gardens can look good,it's just about selection and planning.

heres a few points for palms.

Palms are more predictable in growth shape and size for trees.

Most palms dont need pruining.

Unlike tree's shrubs that need constant pruining or often grow to big for the area planted in.

Palms only drop fronds and seeds.seeds can be chopped off before dropping and fronds are easily picked up and taken away.

Unlike trees that make a mess dropping leaves,seeds,flowers,fruit,branches. often blocking drains and house gutters.

Palms are less invasive in there root systems compared to many trees that can crack concrete and get into drain's.

I sure theres more but thats just a few.

[SunnyFl]

(redant @ Dec. 28 2006,10:13)

QUOTE

I use a mix as my property had many beautiful oaks and pines when I purchased it. Well the hurricanes did in most of the oaks, the pines are dying like crazy due to bark beetles that followed the hurricanes.

Jeanne destabilized my former laurel oak (good riddance) and at our last place, a tornado took out our pines.  Didn't stay there long enough to do much planting after that.

I have replanted some oaks and a bunch of flowering trees and several mango and citrus trees but go heavy on the palms. I worry about going only palm as I know many of the ones I prefer to plant could be wiped out in a single freeze like Christmas of 89, leaving my huge yard a baron landscape.

A very good point.  Most, if not all, of my plantings would be gone in a bad freeze.  If we got a blast like '89, my yard would be toast - I keep planting tropicals b/c I love them so much.

[Really full garden]

I think there is a big difference between a landscape and a collection of palms.A landscape is the artful combination of plants that work together to enhance architecture and the environment. A landscape of palms is certainly possible provided consideration is made to use palmate and pinnate leaved palms and clustering and single trunked specimens etc.

A palm garden(landscape or collection) would benifit greatly by the use of trees.They can provide shade,protection from winds,hail,frost and provide additional humidity. I cant imagine any garden without trees.

                                                                                               Scott

[Scott]

Al - I didn't see if anyone ID's those beauties - are they Cyrtostachys lakka?

I also like some BIG bamboo in the mixture, as long as it kep nice looking. I got 3 Oldhamii's among my palms. But the scene in your first post sure looks good! Nice to see a place where there aren't any pine trees!

[paulgila]

i can definitley see everyones point here after reading all of the replies,but its kind of a moot point since all of us will plant whatever we find aesthetically pleasing(it seems that debating it is half the fun).

personally,i think you can do BOTH.my garden has a lot of twists & turns.some areas you may see only palms,& some you will see other plants as well(hows that for

"sittin' on the fence"?).

even ralph velez had a few non-palms hidden in the back.

[Jeff Searle]

To, Scottgt, Scott,and Pohonkelapa,

   I think what you three are saying also is, that you too like a little bit of diversity in the garden, good.

   What my goal is, and probably many others here, is that I want good collections of many different plant groups represented in my garden. Because what I want is, when a plant society group comes over for a tour of our yard, I want to make them feel as stupid as the day's long.  This is all in good horticultural fun of course. I want them asking, hey Jeff, whats this? Or whats that? Show them what collecting is all about!

Jeff

[RainForestt Robert]

Nice debate guys!  I appreciate beauty in all it's forms.  Palms obviously are a priority, but I like diversity in the landscape.  However when there is limited space you have to prioritize.  For example I think that every good landscape should have some type of water feature, whether to encourage wildlife, reflection, mask noise etc.  So if given a choice between a variety of landscapes, I would chose one that is aesthetically pleasing with varied topography, plants with color, form and texture.  However if you asked me where I would like to spend the day, give me as many different palms as possible.  Personally, I find Al in Kona's landscape with palms, bromeliads, cycads etc very attractive.

Robert

[MASOALA JASON]

The 'perfect' or 'best' landscape is a subjective viewpoint created by each individuals' interests, wants, desires, etc...

  To me, the 'perfect' landscape is a natural habitat. Since my interests are skewed towards the Arecaceae, then any undisturbed palm habitat I come across is as good as it gets. The diversity of natural elements(plants, animals, soil, rock, etc.) and the web of biological connectivity at play in a natural habitat can not be replicated by a human and the beauty of such a place is hard if not impossible to fully describe. Any attempt at replication is only a simplified replica. Even disturbed habitats have some semblance of the amazing stamp of creation.

    Landscapes created by humans always have less appeal to me than these natural habitats. Nonetheless some landscapes or gardens created by humans can take one's breathe away. I think a landscape mixed with as many phytomorphologies, colors, smells, food, ad infinitum is the 'best'. Although palms can offer almost everything that the rest of the plant world can offer in these respects, I think they are bolstered(protected, etc.) and accentuated by a diversity of other plant families.

[Jim in Los Altos]

As a professional landscape designer, for years I've invited clients to my garden and, although they loved the experience, very few want a dense palm garden for themselves. I've got a huge Live Oak and Deodara Cedar that are the basis for my shade garden, full of shade loving palms underneath as well as bromeliads, giant philodendrons, alocasias, rubber trees, etc. Having lots of plant diversity is the best way to get people interested in having palms in their landscapes who hadn't considered them before. In all the years I've been constructing and installing landscapes only one contained no palms at all. It was an Alpine look that was requested which meant groves of spruces, aspens, and pines, giant boulders, etc. Every other landscape included at least a few palms but no client has ever requested a 100% palm garden. That's something that I think only a collector may want.

One other interesting note is that by a 5 to 1 ratio, male clients get excited over palms more than their female spouses or companions. So many of our landscapes end up being compromises between what he likes and what she likes but we make it work no matter what but the most fun ones and successful ones are the ones that we have complete artistic control over. Those always have the most palms and the most unusual species for this area.

[Palmarum]

"So many species, so little time." Life is too short to be picky to what one would like, plant what plant groups you are interested in and hope they flourish. Even the most heavy palm-laden collection must give way to physics. There will always be spaces between palms, waiting to be filled with some other tropical plant. Some of the best photos I've taken involved great contrast between light and dark, large and small. A palm's new red emergent leaf looks amazing next to a large-leafed yellow-green croton.

Ryan

[Kris]

(Palmarum @ Dec. 29 2006,22:48)

QUOTE

"So many species, so little time." Life is too short to be picky to what one would like, plant what plant groups you are interested in and hope they flourish. Even the most heavy palm-laden collection must give way to physics. There will always be spaces between palms, waiting to be filled with some other tropical plant. Some of the best photos I've taken involved great contrast between light and dark, large and small. A palm's new red emergent leaf looks amazing next to a large-leafed yellow-green croton.

Ryan

Very well Said_I think you have brought in some

moderation in this well heated debate on Palms &

other trees in todays landscaping works !

Kris.

[BobbyinNY]

Bo,

I assume your kidding some, right? Don't get me wrong, I love palms as much as anyone, been doing it a long time,but.........if you polled a 100 landscapers/ LA(lndsp. arct.) and asked them, YOU would be sorely mistaken.And these 100 people could be from tropical areas, not all from temperate areas.Think about it!  And I'm a palm nut, and you have a great collection , about the best private yard, I'v seen.But, you and I and most of these other people on this forum would plant all palms in their yards, if conditions would allow. But, there has to be a good mix. Character! And what about color?? Palms are just one element in a landscape. Landscape vs. Palmscape?

Jeff

This is very interesting, guys... Jeff I agree with you, and to a lesser extent, Bo, I agree with you too....

I think that if the look of the garden is Tropical, than most of the plantings should be tropical in Nature - but I DO believe in diversity.... If you're gonna plant palms, why not include bananas, Crotons, agave, Bromlieads, cycads, and even citrus...  I think Shapes and textures enhance the beauty of a garden... I love the look of Elephant ears mixed in with tall palms for contrast. Crotons around the base, etc.. but what I don't like are Spruce & Pine Trees mixed in with tropicals... The "english garden" look (to me) has no place in the tropical landscape.

[Dave-Vero]

I tend to get bored with designed landscapes fairly quickly (my background is in natural vegetation), but it seems kind of interesting that the remarkable Gertrude Jekyll was under-appreciated in England, and her papers ended up at Berkeley.  She pretty much invented the present-day notion of the English garden in cooperation with Lutyens, the architect.  Quite a bit of her ideas for landscape layout (layout of paths, open vs wooded areas, hedges) are applicable nearly anywhere.  The UC Press Book is out of print, but it would be worth finding a used copy.

For "tropical" landscaping, I have a copy of the Palm Beach garden club book, a mixed bag with some good examples of how not to do it.  Georgia Tasker's Miami book (available from Fairchild Tropical Botanic Garden) is great.  She advocates creating a tropical hammock (hardwood forest, or at least tall thicket.  What the Bahamians might call "coppice") and using it to shelter nice ornamentals.  Miami as a whole has somewhat too many palms, or at least not enough hardwoods.

[John Case]

(bgl @ Dec. 28 2006,00:43)

QUOTE

Jeff,

No, I certainly wasn't kidding. But pay attention to what I said at the beginning "I have nothing against dicots...". I obviously realize that most people, even here in Hawaii (or any tropical area), may want diversity, and that's fine. It WOULD be boring if everyone just planted palms, but I don't think we're at any risk there. Polling 100 landscapers in LA wouldn't tell us anything except their own personal preferences, prejudices, and yes, ignorance. If you polled 10,000 people 600 years ago, chances are that 9999 would have insisted that the earth is flat, so a poll is useless when you're asking people about something they know little about. And my whole point was that the overwhelming number of landscapers (and I have talked to quite a few, both in CA and here in HI) don't know much about palms. If a palm enthusiast asked the average landscaper to design a 100% palm garden for them, they would have to do a LOT of research. And the fact is, as we both know, that there is a lot of variety when it comes to palms; shape, size and color as well as growth rate, which is a very important component in designing a garden. I took all of those aspects into consideration when I designed our garden. I also obviously used the existing Ohi'a trees (even though we did cut down a bunch of them), but I can honestly say that if we had bought a piece of land with no dicots, I certainly would not have planted any and I know for a fact that I would still have been able to create a garden that would be anything but boring! Even, or maybe ESPECIALLY, to non-palm people.

Bo-Göran

All,

In my area, unless your landscaper has a background in horticulture (most of our here in the SF East Bay do not) the plant mix you get will normally be something very commercial from Home Depot or a local nursery.

The reason I joined this forum is to help me select the plants I want in my yard/landscape....

Even the landscape designer/architect around here primarily work on hardscape issues and have little skill in selection of plants and I have yet to see specialists in palms, California natives, or other designs. For example, I could hire a landscape designer to create a Japanese garden,....selectio of plants is usually limited to Japanese maples and some tropical/subtropical perennials.

People in foums like this one are the experts in the horticultural aspect of landscape design. Have you landscaper/contractor build your patios and retaining walls and paths, but select your own plants..... you'll be ripping out anything your landscaper selects anyway.

Good luck all and Happy New Year.

John Case

[Dave-Vero]

John,

It's even worse in Florida with respect to plant materials and design.   Most landscapes are pretty dismal assemblages of cheap mass-produced stuff.  Even in horribly expensive neighborhoods.  

If you know who to contact, there's remarkable landscape practitioners, from beach vegetation restorer Rob Barron to some wonderful native design specialists (eg Bill Bissett in central Fla).  And if you hunt around, an incredible garden flora is available.  Searle Brothers are remarkable, but there's expert nurseries for fruits, cycads, roses (!), orchids, bromeliads, heliconias, and even caladiums--they're a Lake Placid specialty.  

I think Pacific Northwest gardeners are spoiled by the region's plant mania.  I think you could actually get the materials for a Japanese garden in Portland!  Portlanders can certainly find outstanding garden consultants.

[bgl]

VERY interesting topic and discussion. Al, how about you let us know what your opinion is....?

And Bobby, I most definitely agree with you that plant groups such as bananas, bromeliads, cycads, etc etc should be added/included in a tropical garden. I have to admit, based on Al's photos I assumed that by "dicots" he simply meant "regular" trees. I decided to look up the definition of "dicot" and apparently, MANY different plant groups are "dicots". My statements above were simply in reference to palms vs. "regular" trees, and of course I realize that 99.999% of all gardens (in tropical areas) are probably going to be a mix, whatever that mix may be. My entire point was simply that I don't believe in limiting oneself to the fact that tropical landscaping SHOULD be done a certain way, whatever that way may be. If someone has knowledge and vision, then go outside of "accepted parameters" and create something that's truly different. Some people may like it, some may love it, and others may actually dislike it, but so what? Have the courage to do something bold and different, not just copy what someone else is doing!

And as I mentioned, I have utilized the "regular" trees that were already here on our property to a great extent. Here's one area I'm very happy with. Dozens of Marojejya darianii growing underneath a huge Tetraplassandra hawaiiensis canopy tree.

[Kathy]

.. but what I don't like are Spruce & Pine Trees mixed in with tropicals...

I'd agree with you that pines and palms look odd together, but nature has done that in some places herself!  Have you been to the Florida Keys?  I believe you've said you have....areas there like Deer Key have many pines and palms mixed together, and I'll never forget how odd I thought they were, complete with their miniature deer mascots.

I'd probably go for the entire-palm look myself, except my food-cravings extend to tropical fruit, so no matter where I live, I'll be trying to grow things like bananas and mangos, and you just gotta have a key lime for the perfect seasoning.....So those will play foil to my fronds for diversity.

[chris.oz]

As it happens I came to palms with a problem.  I had a canopy of dicots,  [ not all of which I like,  but they screen our house from the neighbours and the street ]   The challenge was to find a plant which grew under the canopy.   Many many palms fit this requirement.  Funnily enough,  you can pick up books about gardening in the shade and palms may not even be mentioned.   This is because the mainstream temperate garden industry is a dicot centric industry for the most part and quite indifferent to palms.

However the picture changes as you move to sub tropical and tropical climates.    The indifference to palms falls away,  because they are recognised as the backbone of a tropical planting.   As to tropical dicots,  some will grow to huge sizes and dominate,  and there are many palms which dont fall into this category and can be grown on a normal house lot.

Having said that,  it is strange that in temperate places some enthusiasts have a passion for palms,  and in the subtropics some enthusiasts have a passion for growing roses.  In many cases the plants will be quite out of zone and not sustainable.

I am trying to improve my canopy trees,  In the last 2 years I  planted

a Jacaranda,  a Magnolia grandiflora and a Michelia velutina, and I plan to rip out the Cotoneasters as the improved  canopy develops and provides enough screening.

Growing a palm garden has its challenges also.    What about the mature form of the garden.   A mass of telegraph poles at ground level and dense shade and heavy root competition and not much screening .   Thats time to start growing Chamaedorea and Rhapis!   But it will be a garden without diversity of color.

[ariscott]

Interesting subject.... We have just recently discovered palms. Always like them, but never had any chance to grow them as we were moving around so much.

Although, I have to agree with Jeff. If anything.... I probably have more tropical flowering trees in my garden now than palm trees... Soon, I will have more fruit trees. I also have many heliconias, gingers, and any other flowering tropical shrubs.

I guess I am lucky to have 5 acres, so I don't have to compromise and choose what I have to plant carefully. But, even if I don't, I think I would prefer a mixture. A bit of everything is more to my liking.... but hey, everyone has different taste... .

Regards, Ari

[Dypsisdean]

In the most simple sense, a plot of land is to a gardener, what a canvas is to a painter. Painters can and have created beauty as Impressionists, Cubists, Surrealists, or even Cartoonists. They can create in the abstract or as a realist, with water colors, oils, with crayons or just a pencil for that matter.

There are Japanese gardens, Victorian gardens, Cottage gardens, Formal gardens, Rose gardens, and Palm gardens. There are xeriscaped gardens, water gardens, and even rock gardens for heaven's sake.

IMO, you should decide for whom you are gardening. Is it for others or for yourself? Because what everyone else may find incredibly pleasing, may do nothing for you. I have seen $10,000,000 paintings that I wouldn't want hanging on my wall.

As a landscaper you should be gardening for others. In your own garden, you should be gardening for yourself.