Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
dalmatiansoap

Hybridisation threads search

Recommended Posts

dalmatiansoap

As Im quite new to the site can U please help me find topics about Palm hybiridisation process?

Im trying to find out how to plant related species for future hybrides here in zone 9.

Any tips, pictures, posts, some links about this theme?

Thanks

:greenthumb:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
krishnaraoji88

Look up the thread about Jubutyagrus, it is about 25 pages long and has everything you could possibly want to know!

Welcome to the forum!

-Krishna

P.S. Here is a link to the thread http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=4789&st=0&p=79412&hl=jubutyagrus&fromsearch=1&#entry79412

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
dalmatiansoap

Thanks, thats what Im looking for.

Still to many "x" and "F" in there but I ll get there by the time :lol:

Any external links about procedure itself?

:greenthumb:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
krishnaraoji88

The most detailed procedure guide I have ever seen is in that thread itself. There is a photo documentation of someone actually doing it. Otherwise just do a google search on hybridizing palms and you should be able to find some info, but nothing as detailed as I found here.

-Krishna

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jeff zone 8 N.C.

Thanks, thats what Im looking for.

Still to many "x" and "F" in there but I ll get there by the time :lol:

Any external links about procedure itself?

:greenthumb:

Welcome Ante (dalmatiansoap)! I will give you a quick (well maybe not so quick) "X" and "F" explanation. The "X" will mean "crossed" with or "bred" with. The name before the "X" is the mother or seed bearing palm. The name after the "X" is the father or pollen giver palm. So if a hybrid is said to be a "Butia x Syagrus" (BxS) then the mother of the seed would be a Butia palm species. This mother Butia received male pollen from a Syagrus species palm. The seed and seedlings from this marriage would be "F1" seed and seedlings. If those seeds grew up to be mature palms and then produced seed of their own, then those seed and resulting seedlings would be "F2". If those F2 seeds grew into mature palms then the seed they produce would be "F3" and so on. It sounds simple but there are many variables. A lot of palm people don't know the rules and so would call the above hybrid a Syagrus X Butia (SxB) even though the mother was actually the Butia. This would be identifying it incorrectly. Also a hybrid can be man made or nature made. If a Butia is growing beside a Syagrus then it can naturally produce seed that are pure Butia (seed pollenated by it's own flowers or another Butia's flowers) or it can produce hybrid seed from wild pollen from the nearby Syagrus that gets to it's flowers by wind or honey bee's. If a person removes all the male flowers from that same Butia but leaves the female parts and then protects the female flowers from wild pollen and then collects pollen from a compatible male (any palm that will hybridise with the Butia including several Syagrus, Jubaea, Lytocarium, Allagoptera, and others) and applies that to the Butia flowers, at the right time, and then protects the flowers from being able to receive any other pollen, then, if they were careful enough to not let wild pollen spoil their work, the resulting seed would be true seed from their intended hybrid. These hybrids can be further identified by describing what specific species were hybridised. The above hybrid could be a Butia capitata X Syagrus romanzoffianum or a Butia capitata x Syagrus cearensis or a Butia eriospatha X any other Syagrus species. When you take into account that some hybrids can be sterile and can not take pollen from some other species but may take pollen from one of it's parents or another species altogether but not from either of it's parent species it can get complicated. And then you have the rules that say a BxS is a "mule" or sterile palm and can not produce seed. But there are some of these BxS that do produce good seed. The problem is that it is hard to know if these viable seed from these BxS is self pollenated or if these seed bearing mules only make good seed when hybridised with another Butia or another Syagrus or other compatible palm. There is another variable. If a hybrid palm is described as "Bx(BxS)" it means the seed bearing mother was a Butia. The pollen that was received by the seeds was from a mature hybrid BxS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
dalmatiansoap

Thanks Jeff,

that makes things more clear for me, specialy that part about first name in crosses. Butia sound like "the best Palm Mother" right? Allmost all crosses includes Butia. And I se third party as Jubaea involved at most lately? That reminds me I have to get Jubaea in my collection to :lol: So planting relativ plants next to each other doest means that there will be any natural hybridisation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jeff zone 8 N.C.

Thanks Jeff,

that makes things more clear for me, specialy that part about first name in crosses. Butia sound like "the best Palm Mother" right? Allmost all crosses includes Butia. And I se third party as Jubaea involved at most lately? That reminds me I have to get Jubaea in my collection to :lol: So planting relativ plants next to each other doest means that there will be any natural hybridisation.

Butia mothers are the easiest to successfully produce hybrids with, although other mothers can be used too. Choose a Butia with very desirable characteristics because the hybrid will usually have a lot of the mothers traits. Make sure the mother is already producing lots of viable seeds naturally. Not all Butia's take pollen as easy as others. Planting relative palms next to each other can naturally produce hybrids but usually not as many as if you do it yourself. If it is done by nature you may have a harder time figuring out which seedlings are the hybrids and could have to grow them up to a larger size to begin to pick out the real hybrids. Also it is not ethical to say a palm is a hybrid just because a person hopes it is. It is important as palms are hybridised and re-hybridised to keep good records of what you have done so that the resulting palm can be made again in larger numbers if it turns out to be a particularly good hybrid. With those made in nature one can never be sure what the hybrid really is even though you may know by it's characteristics that it is a hybrid. But this "not knowing' can still make a beautiful and desirable palm just one that makes further crosses with it harder to figure out.

Edited by Jeff zone 8 N.C.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
merrillwx

One oddity in all of this is that Butia X Syagrus F2 generation are usually, if not always, self pollinated. This is difficult to understand, since the pollen from a hybrid is expected to have much reduced fertility.

Best Wishes,

merrill

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
dalmatiansoap

Thanks,

OK thats with Butias, Syagrus,Lytocarium, Allagoptera and all others from above.

Whats with Phoenix? Any species out of Phoenix familly that can be crossed with them?

Haha this all will make me nuts :lol: or maybe allready is :blink:

:greenthumb:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jeff zone 8 N.C.

Thanks,

OK thats with Butias, Syagrus,Lytocarium, Allagoptera and all others from above.

Whats with Phoenix? Any species out of Phoenix familly that can be crossed with them?

Haha this all will make me nuts :lol: or maybe allready is :blink:

:greenthumb:

Phoenix are natural hybridisers with each other to the point of it actually being a problem to get pure seed from them when two or more Phoenix types grow near each other. Phoenix will not hybridize with Butia. The Butiinae palms that are possible to hybridise are Butia, Parajubaea, Cocos, Jubaea, Syagrus, Allagoptera, Jubaeopsis, and Lytocaryum. There may be others that I have forgetten and I suppose there could be some that have not been discovered yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mark Heath

Thanks, thats what Im looking for.

Still to many "x" and "F" in there but I ll get there by the time :lol:

Any external links about procedure itself?

:greenthumb:

Welcome Ante (dalmatiansoap)! I will give you a quick (well maybe not so quick) "X" and "F" explanation. The "X" will mean "crossed" with or "bred" with. The name before the "X" is the mother or seed bearing palm. The name after the "X" is the father or pollen giver palm. So if a hybrid is said to be a "Butia x Syagrus" (BxS) then the mother of the seed would be a Butia palm species. This mother Butia received male pollen from a Syagrus species palm. The seed and seedlings from this marriage would be "F1" seed and seedlings. If those seeds grew up to be mature palms and then produced seed of their own, then those seed and resulting seedlings would be "F2". If those F2 seeds grew into mature palms then the seed they produce would be "F3" and so on. It sounds simple but there are many variables. A lot of palm people don't know the rules and so would call the above hybrid a Syagrus X Butia (SxB) even though the mother was actually the Butia. This would be identifying it incorrectly. Also a hybrid can be man made or nature made. If a Butia is growing beside a Syagrus then it can naturally produce seed that are pure Butia (seed pollenated by it's own flowers or another Butia's flowers) or it can produce hybrid seed from wild pollen from the nearby Syagrus that gets to it's flowers by wind or honey bee's. If a person removes all the male flowers from that same Butia but leaves the female parts and then protects the female flowers from wild pollen and then collects pollen from a compatible male (any palm that will hybridise with the Butia including several Syagrus, Jubaea, Lytocarium, Allagoptera, and others) and applies that to the Butia flowers, at the right time, and then protects the flowers from being able to receive any other pollen, then, if they were careful enough to not let wild pollen spoil their work, the resulting seed would be true seed from their intended hybrid. These hybrids can be further identified by describing what specific species were hybridised. The above hybrid could be a Butia capitata X Syagrus romanzoffianum or a Butia capitata x Syagrus cearensis or a Butia eriospatha X any other Syagrus species. When you take into account that some hybrids can be sterile and can not take pollen from some other species but may take pollen from one of it's parents or another species altogether but not from either of it's parent species it can get complicated. And then you have the rules that say a BxS is a "mule" or sterile palm and can not produce seed. But there are some of these BxS that do produce good seed. The problem is that it is hard to know if these viable seed from these BxS is self pollenated or if these seed bearing mules only make good seed when hybridised with another Butia or another Syagrus or other compatible palm. There is another variable. If a hybrid palm is described as "Bx(BxS)" it means the seed bearing mother was a Butia. The pollen that was received by the seeds was from a mature hybrid BxS.

Jeff,

You have learned well grasshopper!! I second what you have said!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jeff zone 8 N.C.

One oddity in all of this is that Butia X Syagrus F2 generation are usually, if not always, self pollinated. This is difficult to understand, since the pollen from a hybrid is expected to have much reduced fertility.

Best Wishes,

merrill

Merrill, thanks for this information. I did not know that. I wonder if BxS F2's pollen would work better in hybridising with other palms?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jeff zone 8 N.C.

Jeff,

You have learned well grasshopper!! I second what you have said!!

Thanks Mark! That means a lot coming from a master hybridiser.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×