An ignored fact about Trachycarpus princeps.

[garrytsen]

Trachycaprus princeps is famous for the uniquely white undersides of leaves. However less attention is paid to the white powder presence on the upper leaf surface and petioles which make them look bluish.

This is because even some real princeps we see on the internet are not really blue,more bit of like a green palm with only white backs. and in some cases, even the undersides ares just blue or gray, not so sharply white.

Actually, T.princeps is a blue palm with white powder to the leaf undersides ,uppersides and petioles. My several princeps grown in the ground and pot out of seeds from the stone gate demonstrate how blue white they could be at both sides.

Though a blue T.princeps with white powder at upperside could be far more interesting and preferable than a green one with only white underside which is not rare to see , it is still unknown what the main reasons are behind the variations.

Maybe someone could contribute his growing experience as to shed light on this.

[garrytsen]

I see in many cases on the internet just green princeps with no blue or white upper leaf surface,but just white backs.

By comparison, most of my 20 older princeps are blue or white even if looked from above. But there is still a huge variation between individuals in term of the blue tinge.

So this boggles me a lot.I am trying to find out what causes the coloration variation as to turn them into a more blue attractive palm.

In my experience,when the princeps is older, it accumulates more white stuff at upper side and lower side.

The photo gives a vivid demonstration that the white powder is more apparent after the 5th or 6th leaves comes into being whereas the 4th and younger split leaves still stay green on the younger princeps.

But the forthcoming leaves of this princeps I think will be as blue as those of other older princeps which I have seen many times happened to several others.

Contrary to my previous belief that sun could contribute more to the coloration,one of the princeps is in a shady location but shows clearer white tinge on both sides than one of my several in the sunny place.

We can see the clear difference if a comparison is drawn between nova and princeps.

[Rafael]

Mine is definitely blue...

[garrytsen]

Great,Rafael.

Maybe you could post your blue princeps as to demonstrate its beauty and make a comparison .There is much variation among the blue tinge at upper leaf surface. It will be interesting to see how blue yours is.

[DoomsDave]

Great,Rafael.

Maybe you could post your blue princeps as to demonstrate its beauty.

Yeah, Raf, go for it!

[ghar41]

Thanks for posting garrytsen. Your T princeps are very blue on both sides, very nice. Mine are definitely green on top, with white stuff heavy near the hastula and showing on the leaf edges.

And the undersides are very white.

Do you think mine will eventually turn more blue?

[garrytsen]

Glenn,what an awesome princeps you are growing ,though without a blue silver tinge on top.

It is hard for me to say for yours.how old is it? Are all of your princeps like this?

This question boggles me for some time and I am trying hard to find out the main reasons causing the variation.

But as I noticed, few of mine started as blue since leaf splitting stage and few initially stayed greenish before finally developing into blue silver with time on the 5th or 6th dividing leaf.

In general when older,I observed so far most of the several princeps growing in the ground and pot display bluish silver coloration more or less at both sides as opposed to the green T.nova (formerly known as green princeps but not a real one, though one form of this variety identical in appearance of evenly and narrowly split leaflets to princeps except minus white stuff)

Not sure how blue Raf's is for comparison till he posts his.

Any other grower could tell his own experience?

[Palms Forever]

Glenn,what an awesome princeps you are growing ,though without a blue silver tinge on top.

It is hard for me to say for yours.how old is it? Are all of your princeps like this?

This question boggles me for some time and I am trying hard to find out the main reasons causing the variation.

But as I noticed, few of mine started as blue since leaf splitting stage and few initially stayed greenish before finally developing into blue silver with time on the 5th or 6th dividing leaf.

In general when older,I observed so far most of the several princeps growing in the ground and pot display bluish silver coloration more or less at both sides as opposed to the green T.nova (formerly known as green princeps but not a real one, though one form of this variety identical in appearance of evenly and narrowly split leaflets to princeps except minus white stuff)

Not sure how blue Raf's is for comparison till he posts his.

Any other grower could tell his own experience?

Garry,

Very interesting to see how yours is very blue !!

Why it's so blue ?

Great comparison with some who are not blue,

The underside of leaves are the same on all those Princeps ? (Green or Blue);

Many thanks Garry,

Cyriak

[Kris]

Nice visuals gentlemen....

[Charles Wychgel]

This one blue enough for you Gary?

[soro]

Hi Gary, your princeps looks just like the ones that Ruud from Golden lotus is selling. Search for "princeps golden lotus" under images and you will get an idea. His have very thick leathery leaves covered with white powder on both sides giving them uniform greyish appearance. An interesting variety although not as elegant and clean looking as the green one with striking white undersides IMHO. How fast are they growing for you compared to the standard ones?

Cheers

[garrytsen]

Cyriak,

The undersides of T.princeps are all blue white,but the difference is coloration of upper leaf surface ranging from green,to greenish blue or blue silver or bit of white.

Charles, a very nice princeps.It is not rare to see the blue silver backs of T.princeps ,but we do not see many really blue silver color on top of the leaves as frequently as the backs,we may just see the upper leaf surface is just green or mostly greenish blue .You could take photos of the upper leaf surface of this pretty princeps so that we can tell if it is blue enough as to be silver

Soro,

thanks for your interesting ideas.But you made a big mistake. The green princeps is actually NOT princeps, but Nova we now call if you keep track of its history.

T.princeps is a blue NOT a green palm with more or less white powder on the upper sides of leaves thus giving a greenish blue or silver appearance if looked from above ,apart from the white backs.

The princeps showed here is the standard T.princeps grown out of seeds collected from the stone gate where T.princeps were originally found.Based on our years of exploration, almost all T.princeps are from the stone gate . So I dont know where you get the green version of princeps . It will be interesting to see it if you show us yours for comparison.

Here I am paying attention to the coloration of upper leaf surfaces of T.princeps.It does not mean they do not have white backs which is easy and common to see. As long as the princeps are real, they must all be blue silver or white at undersides, depending on the density of the white powder which varies between individuals and presumably is connected to the growing conditions.

Another interesting we have found is that no cultivated princeps by people can match T.princeps from the habitat in term of the density of white powder.That is probably concerned with the unique growing conditions in the stone gate like highland climate, dramatic temperature fluctuation,soil,and rainfall,etc.That is why we are trying hard to find out what other non-inherited causes are responsible for the blue silver coloration ,especially of the upper leaf surface as T.princeps people are growing vary in this respect.

[Alberto]

Garry, what kind of marblestones are in the Stonegate region? Dolomitic or calcitic? According Tobias Spanners´s book ``Winterharte Palmen´´ the soil there is very alkaline.Maybe it is something related to the composition of the local rocks,higher in calcium or calcium/magnesium....???

BTW In what kind of soil you grow your T. princeps ???

[8er-moni]

Hi!

This is my litte one - thanks to Gerry for inviting me to have a look here

July 2010 - in the garden in the sun

Today in the shadow outside - a very different colour -

Inside with flash

[ghar41]

Glenn,what an awesome princeps you are growing ,though without a blue silver tinge on top.

It is hard for me to say for yours.how old is it? Are all of your princeps like this?

This question boggles me for some time and I am trying hard to find out the main reasons causing the variation.

But as I noticed, few of mine started as blue since leaf splitting stage and few initially stayed greenish before finally developing into blue silver with time on the 5th or 6th dividing leaf.

In general when older,I observed so far most of the several princeps growing in the ground and pot display bluish silver coloration more or less at both sides as opposed to the green T.nova (formerly known as green princeps but not a real one, though one form of this variety identical in appearance of evenly and narrowly split leaflets to princeps except minus white stuff)

Not sure how blue Raf's is for comparison till he posts his.

Any other grower could tell his own experience?

Garrytsen- Ive had mine for about a year. Yes they are all similar.

8er moni- Your plants look very different when pictured indoors and out. Your indoor pictures look very similar to my plants, both were taken with flash. I think we may have some wide variations in color based on the light exposure of the different pictures on this post.

[TheChemist]

Hello Garry,

you invited me to participate this discussion, so I'm here.

First I have to say, that my T. princeps are very young and just start to deliver the first divided leafs (the oldest germinated in August 2009). Therefore they are still more green than blue.

As far as I can tell now, too many rainy days may be a factor for less blue leafs. Some other blue palms also show that effect.

But it is also possible, that T. princeps from Golden Lotus (I got the seeds from there) represent a different variety of T. princeps. I know that Golden Lotus seeds are not collected at the Stone Gate.

[Takil-Explorer]

On Google Earth you can see the Stonegate, its at 28.02 degrees north and 98.36 degrees east at 1550 meters. For those whom want to see it in habitad!I am one of them!

Alexander

[garrytsen]

Thank you guys for posting very nice princeps of different styles.

Alberto,Got no idea what marble the cliff is made up of.

I am just using natural soil mixed with peat and sand with no lime added as the local articles indicate that the soil in the habitat is slightly acid,though some are hanging up the limestone.

Moni,interesting photos taken at different time are compared.

My princeps look more green in the morning with dew on the leaves but still the blue silver surface on top is quite obvious and so is the underside.By comparison, it shifts to plain silver in the afternoon.

Thomas,I think apart from genetic variations between individuals, there are non-inherited causes contributing to the coloration we need to uncover as the cultivated princeps by people are not as white as the wild ones.thank you for your suggestion on the relationship between the coloration and humidity which however is way too complicated and needs to be verified later because we got too much downpour than most you guys here, several months in a roll from April to July.

photographed in the morning.

photographed in the afternoon.

[garrytsen]

It has been sunny and warm and the grass is growing pretty fast in the field where several princeps are growing,together with one Nova, the narrow type.No sooner have I removed it than it began to shoot again, a pain in the neck.

It makes a sharp contrast between the two both with evenly split leaves, one is glossy green , the other blue silver on both sides.

That will be fantastic if they all have the cute small unique leaf shape like wagnerianus.

[ixigena]

Hi Gary,

I bought some from Ruud Golden Lotus from Thailand. Quiet slow growing, I lost some because of rotting then dried spear. In green house the leaf get bluish, but under full sun and daily raining the leaf getting loose the blues.

[iamjv]

Interesting thread and great comparison pictures.... unfortunately my princeps died earlier this yr sub coming to the heat we had and not being properly placed. I'll get another one in the spring and hope it does better. Jv

[ixigena]

Dear Gary,

I confidence for this specie quite tough to be bare rooted then mailed for less than a week.

Could you tell us. Why some of seedling or juvenile T. Princeps could not survive? If we put in full sun and daily raining. Most of them the central spear or shoot getting browned then dried out and die. Mine died 4 out of 10.

In what size is the best to be planted on ground? Thanks in advance.

Edited December 19, 2010 by ixigena

[garrytsen]

ixigena

You probably got warm and humid tropical climate since you are from Bandung,Indonesia , that is the reason why T.princeps are subject to root or spear rot there. Even in south subtropical climate like ours, hot and wet summer, and colder winter than yours,I also got the same problem with rot as you do if the growing medium does not drain well.

See T.princeps in the habitat are originally growing at almost upright steep cliff and we better understand how good draining they need.

Like all palms, they prefer well draining growing medium .Hot and wet conditions make them prone to fungus attack .

What you need to do is dig ditches around the palm to pump water easily and reduce the humidity level,add some pebble or coarse sand into the soil and apply organic fertilizer like chicken manure to improve the chemical and physical properties of the soil so that the roots breathe freely and are fed great.Plus, frequent fungicide and pesticide spray or pour into the spear is necessary ,especially in hot and rain season.

I noticed that my princeps in good draining medium have much less occurrence of spear rot than those in the plainly soil.

As long as you won't feel it a trouble removing grass when they are young , the earlier, the better .In that case,they could grow much faster than the counterparts in the pots.My princeps above in the ground were all planted out since they got 2 spears.

This German grower just sowed the seed in the ground and his princeps survived the harsh winter as well,but not everyone is as brave as he is .You can be free of the cold, but need to fight against fungus in tropical climate.

http://www.exotenwiese.de/57814/57877.html

[The Germinator]

It that considered tomentum or is it called something else. The dictionary says tomentumis hary white stuff, but this white stuff is not hairy. I always thought is was some type of waxy substance.

Edited December 20, 2010 by The Germinator

[garrytsen]

I would say it is just white powder, has nothing to do with wax or tomentum. as the rain can wash it off.So normally the new leaves are more apparently blue -silver at both sides than the old ones.

[TonyDFW]

Here is a picture from last year, of my princeps. It was 4 years in the ground when this image was taken.

older leaves have green uppers and white lowers.

Emerging leaves are mostly blue uppers and lowers. As it ages the upper folds and center of the frond retain blue "A touch of frost" kinda view.

[TonyDFW]

My five year old

[Brad Mondel]

Does anyone have any updated photos of their princeps? Did the blue coating fade as they got older, or did they retain it?