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Tom S

Red Palm weevils found in Laguna Beach, CA

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DoomsDave

here is the story of how they got to north america:

http://www.redpalmwe...t/Caribbean.htm

...here is the story of how they got to Curaçao in the Caribean. Curacao is near to Florida,but Laguna Beach is located at the other side of the continent.......

How they went from Curaçao to California??????????

That's the $64 Billion Question . . . . .

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palmpuppy

Funny I had read last year Portugal was making real inroads in battling the bug. Our municipality's eradication program made a big dent in the population. Unfortunately, it lasted only abput 3 months but wouldn't even be considered for the budget anymore( no secret Greece has a little cash problem at the moment ).

Your country is not alonel :blink:

Which would make this little invader quite the opportunist.

Jackie

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mlovecan

here is the story of how they got to north america:

http://www.redpalmwe...t/Caribbean.htm

...here is the story of how they got to Curaçao in the Caribean. Curacao is near to Florida,but Laguna Beach is located at the other side of the continent.......

How they went from Curaçao to California??????????

That's the $64 Billion Question . . . . .

I would think the Californian ones more likely came from Japan or the Phillipines.

http://www.redpalmweevil.com/Distribution/Map.htm

Edited by mlovecan

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Carlo Morici

Southern Italy was full of phoenix canariensis :(

latest news: in a house next to mine, I saw a phoenix canariensis that had not yet been attacked by the red weevil,

Giuseppe,

RPW did not get to the Phoenix canariensis by my hometown in Sicily. Nothing happened (yet?) in the areas around Messina.

Also, last summer I saw no dead palms in downtown Messina.

Carlo

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palmpuppy

...here is the story of how they got to Curaçao in the Caribean. Curacao is near to Florida,but Laguna Beach is located at the other side of the continent.......

How they went from Curaçao to California??????????

That's the $64 Billion Question . . . . .

Maybe they were imported?

"International trade is one of Orange County's strongest sectors"

http://economy.ocregister.com/2010/10/14/will-international-trade-save-o-c/42588/

Phoenix dactylifera palm trunks shipped worlwide from Egypt (palm trunks are used in the manufacture of artificial palm trees, tikis, furniture, palm trunk vases, planters, etc)

http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/100896737/Phoenix_Dactylifer_Palm_Tree.html

Preserved palm trees shipped for decorative purposes

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/315343890/preserved_palm.html

Anyhow, so much for this:

Federal Import Quarantine Order:

"This Federal Order prevents the introduction and dissemination of the harmful plant pests Rhynchophorus ferrugineus Olivier (Red Palm Weevil),"

http://tinyurl.com/2fdsuqn (quick view)

www.aphis.usda.gov/import...imports/.../Palm%20Pests_1-25-10.pdf

Jackie

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Carlo Morici

The arrival of Rhynchophorus to America is bad news indeed!

I think the Government of the Canary Islands did a good job. The insect was found on two islands in 2005. Everybody knew the tragic impact in Southern Europe and was worried for all the Phoenix canariensis of the islands, including the natural palm groves. The weevil was caught at the very start and a large operation was started against the bug. Loads of public money was given for this project. The RPW was not allowed to spread to the rest of the archipelago and now it is close to being erradicated.

In 2006, 296 palms were removed because of the RPW. In 2010, just three palms had to be killed ! Now... this is not yet erradication, I hope they keep the grants until the pest is really gone.

Visit this official site about RPW in the Canary Islands: http://www.picudorojocanarias.es/

Carlo

Sounds like you guys got away, clean..

Mommy!

Please, Californians who read Spanish go and give a look to that link! So far, the "Canarian method" is really a triumph.

The keys are a massive control over the whole territory and a determination to kill the palm before the weevil kills it. Any attempt to save an affected palm for one more season is a step toward the spread of the bugs.

Carlo

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Carlo Morici

Maybe they were imported?

Phoenix dactylifera palm trunks shipped worlwide from Egypt (palm trunks are used in the manufacture of artificial palm trees, tikis, furniture, palm trunk vases, planters, etc)

http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/100896737/Phoenix_Dactylifer_Palm_Tree.html

Freshly cut? :blink:

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palmpuppy

RPW in Egypt

http://www.redpalmwe...eport/Egypt.htm

Red palm weevil Rhynchophorus ferrugineus Oliv. is a serious pest attacking different species of palm trees (e.g. date palm, coconut palm and royal palm).

......

How people control and deal with RPW:

1) Regulary Survey carry out and depend on the number of the trees. Well trained agronomists offer the main data to evaluate control applications depending on the percent and rate of infestation.

2) Agricultural quarantine enforced among infested and clear governorates to prevent the distribution of this pest.

3) Chemical Control using different chemical insecticides Such as Diazinon, profinfos and fibronil had been achieved by regular spray, injection of infested trees and offshoot treatments. In addition gas treatmen using phosphine gas and soil treatment using granular insecticides are also used. Biological control methods gave some results.

4) Phormone traps are promising method to minimal the numbers of the pest offered by the ministry of Agriculture and used in all infested areas.

5) Removal of offshoots and treat the tree with chemical prevent the infestation.

6) Intensive research programs, scholarships, projects and information exchange are encourage by Prof. Dr. Youssef Wally, Deputy Prime Minister & Minister of Agriculture and Land Reclamation to face this dangerous pest.

Jackie

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gyuseppe
Giuseppe,

RPW did not get to the Phoenix canariensis by my hometown in Sicily. Nothing happened (yet?) in the areas around Messina.

Also, last summer I saw no dead palms in downtown Messina.

Carlo

Carlo The situation changed in a year, and a lot worse !

in the last year are disappearing all the phoenix canariensis !

in sicily also attacked the phoenix rupicola of your friend pietro puccio

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palmpuppy

:evil:

I'll second that and add....

post-4749-094720800 1287090454_thumb.jpg

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palmpuppy

Maybe they were imported?

Phoenix dactylifera palm trunks shipped worlwide from Egypt (palm trunks are used in the manufacture of artificial palm trees, tikis, furniture, palm trunk vases, planters, etc)

http://www.alibaba.c..._Palm_Tree.html

Freshly cut? :blink:

Does that have to be the case? There are many species of beetle where the larvae survive post harvesting of their host and will live a long time, eventually emerging. I don't know about red palm weevil, though. I'm not a beetle expert.

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DoomsDave

Palmpuppy:

You've certainly provided the best answer to the question of "how did they get here" so far.

I'll bet a genetic examination of the bugs here in comparison with those overseas will provide a clue as to where they came from.

Mommmy!

:rage:

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Tom S

Phoenix dactylifera palm trunks shipped worlwide from Egypt (palm trunks are used in the manufacture of artificial palm trees, tikis, furniture, palm trunk vases, planters, etc)

http://www.alibaba.c..._Palm_Tree.html

P

Jackie

They sell plenty of this stuff here in Laguna Beach.

I drive by the "quarantined" area at least twice a day, and have seen the AG guys there multiple times. Today I was on a side street 6 blocks away, and noticed a yard with at least 6, 50 year old CIDP's. Thought to myself, wonder if they checked these trees, and just then an AG guy walked out of the back yard.

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palmpuppy

Phoenix dactylifera palm trunks shipped worlwide from Egypt (palm trunks are used in the manufacture of artificial palm trees, tikis, furniture, palm trunk vases, planters, etc)

http://www.alibaba.c..._Palm_Tree.html

P

Jackie

They sell plenty of this stuff here in Laguna Beach.

I drive by the "quarantined" area at least twice a day, and have seen the AG guys there multiple times. Today I was on a side street 6 blocks away, and noticed a yard with at least 6, 50 year old CIDP's. Thought to myself, wonder if they checked these trees, and just then an AG guy walked out of the back yard.

Interesting. Did you stop to chat with him about it? Would have been very interesting to see what he had to say.

Jackie

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Charles Wychgel

Funny I had read last year Portugal was making real inroads in battling the bug. Our municipality's eradication program made a big dent in the population. Unfortunately, it lasted only abput 3 months but wouldn't even be considered for the budget anymore( no secret Greece has a little cash problem at the moment ).

We used to see only trunked palms attacked. Now the CIDP supply is so low, and we have so many weevils, they don't need to be all that big before attracting the attention of RPW.

This is the result of an experiment to determine if RPW were interested in Cretan Date Palms. Quite small specimans were used - and the RPW was interested. The weevil on the left came out of the speciman on the right.

I stand corrected on the small non trunking palm issue Maurice thanks for showing the experiment

As for the municipalities here in Portugal they are doing something on the palms that are in public spaces although imo feromone traps only accelerate the problem as they expand the area that attracts the weevil....imagine the weevils sitting in your gardeners truck getting a lift to the next garden with Phoenix palms.

Municipalities are helpless when they are confronted with dead palms on private property; they simply cannot force the owner to take action and do the only thing that will help contain the problem: destroy the palm, preferably in situ to prevent grubs escaping, Carlo remarks are to the point in this.

I've seen a lot of dead Phoenix palms on private properties; after asking the owner why they don't remove the stumps I either get a shrug or they will say that they have no money

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Nigel

Municipalities are helpless when they are confronted with dead palms on private property; they simply cannot force the owner to take action and do the only thing that will help contain the problem: destroy the palm, preferably in situ to prevent grubs escaping, Carlo remarks are to the point in this.

I've seen a lot of dead Phoenix palms on private properties; after asking the owner why they don't remove the stumps I either get a shrug or they will say that they have no money

I guess its good the Cali newspapers are following this thread. Carlo,s example seems the ONLY success anywhere against this menace.

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Alberto

Municipalities are helpless when they are confronted with dead palms on private property; they simply cannot force the owner to take action and do the only thing that will help contain the problem: destroy the palm, preferably in situ to prevent grubs escaping, Carlo remarks are to the point in this.

I've seen a lot of dead Phoenix palms on private properties; after asking the owner why they don't remove the stumps I either get a shrug or they will say that they have no money

I guess its good the Cali newspapers are following this thread. Carlo,s example seems the ONLY success anywhere against this menace.

Islas Canarias.Succes story on a few little Islands in the Atlantic. The beetle is confined. What will happen im regions on mainland (BIG areas) with native palm stands added to a lot of cultivated species.........???

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Alberto

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Alberto

As for the municipalities here in Portugal they are doing something on the palms that are in public spaces although imo feromone traps only accelerate the problem as they expand the area that attracts the weevil....imagine the weevils sitting in your gardeners truck getting a lift to the next garden with Phoenix palms.

This was a common concern, but it´s not true.

I read that the traps don´t atract weevils that aren´t in the imediations of the trap. So it do not atract wewils from far away to areas that do not have weevils.

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Nigel

I think Carlos point is forget treatments........ if the palm starts to show damage from larvae take it out and burn it before the larvae leave.

Treating a palm just gives time for the larvae to mature and escape spreading the plague further.

Clearly Alberto is correct in that this isnt possible in big wild stands, so they need to be stopped there on the beaches !!

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Tomas
I think Carlos point is forget treatments........ if the palm starts to show damage from larvae take it out and burn it before the larvae leave.

Treating a palm just gives time for the larvae to mature and escape spreading the plague further.

The larvae when born will find their way to the heart of the palm and will feed there. When they are ready to cocoon, they will enter the leaf base and use the fibers to cocoon. When there are too many cocoons for a leaf base, or rot will occur or strong wind, the weakened leaf base will collaps and the leaf will hang at an innatural angle. This will be the first visual symptom of the palm being attacked. But at that point some of the first adults may already be out of the palm. And any female that succeds in breeding will lay hundreds of eggs.

BTW, it is not an easy task to destroy a palm burning it, there is a lot of water there.

Tomas

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phoenixbob

Attack Begins on Laguna's Palm-Killing Beetle

State agricultural inspectors are deploying an initial 1,000 containers spiked with a chemical-soaked lure within a quarter mile or so around the intersection of Chiquita Street and Hillcrest Drive, said Jay Van Rein, a spokesman for the state Department of Agriculture, in Sacramento.

More at: Laguna Beach Newspaper

Edited by phoenixbob

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palmpuppy

Attack Begins on Laguna's Palm-Killing Beetle

State agricultural inspectors are deploying an initial 1,000 containers spiked with a chemical-soaked lure within a quarter mile or so around the intersection of Chiquita Street and Hillcrest Drive, said Jay Van Rein, a spokesman for the state Department of Agriculture, in Sacramento.

More at: Laguna Beach Newspaper

This is *very* encouraging....

In fact, federal agricultural scientists are already involved, trying to forecast when the adults will hatch, Van Rein said. “This is one of hundreds of pests the USDA is always looking for.”

Jackie

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Toby

I got an interesting e-mail recently about a new method to destroy the weevil in infected plants without chemicals or destroying the plants:

"Dear Palm Society

with this email, I want to ask if you are aware of the new microwave system for treatment of palm trees against the red palm weevil.

An Italian company has developed and implemented this system and is already operational in Italy with excellent results.

 

See site    www.ecopalm.it

 

I would like to recive an your opinion on this system and whether it has an interest in any meetings to present our system.

 

Best Regards, Francesco Ciaccio"

The system does not look cheap, but if you have a lot of plants to treat it should be a minimal cost.

Best, TOBY

 

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John in Andalucia

I got an interesting e-mail recently about a new method to destroy the weevil in infected plants without chemicals or destroying the plants:

"Dear Palm Society

with this email, I want to ask if you are aware of the new microwave system for treatment of palm trees against the red palm weevil.

An Italian company has developed and implemented this system and is already operational in Italy with excellent results.

See site www.ecopalm.it

I would like to recive an your opinion on this system and whether it has an interest in any meetings to present our system.

Best Regards, Francesco Ciaccio"

The system does not look cheap, but if you have a lot of plants to treat it should be a minimal cost.

Best, TOBY

Toby, there is a YouTube video posted by Dean earlier in this topic. Pretty sure it's the same company: http://www.palmtalk....ndpost&p=423716

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Dypsisdean

I had several questions/reservations about that microwave device.

The first, which I assume was just answered, was whether the system was designed to save the tree or just to kill the weevils and cook the tree to prevent them from spreading - since burning them was not recommended. I was afraid it might just be a huge microwave oven. :)

The second was how long the device had to stay on to treat the tree, and for a tall tree how long would that be and could it even reach that high.

And the third was whether the device could treat the crown. It appears from some pics as if the beetle actually lived and ate inside the petioles of the tree. And it didn't look to me as if the device could treat the crownal region.

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DoomsDave

What a wholly, wildly impractical device.

Imagine the expense!

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palmpuppy

I posted this in another thread but thought readers here who missed that thread might want to see this. It's a video using the microwave to kill everything in the palm, then the palm is cut down and dissected revealing the results. Dead everything...

Jackie

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Morabeza

This is extremly depressing. Imagine California without its Canary Island Date Palms. Think of the coming generations that may never be inspired by their majestic beauty. I really hope an epidemic can be avoided.

We must keep this out of Hawai'i at all costs. Thankfully it is illegal to import any palm parts from the mainland into Hawai'i. I don't know if this is enough to stop it, but I hope so.

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Ferry

The discovery of a palm infested by the red palm weevil in Laguna Beach is really surprising and a very bad new.

The concerned authorities but also all the municipalities around Laguna Beach have to move very fast and especially to communicate strongly and very quickly on this event.

Unfortunately by experience here in Europe as well in other country (even in Israel with the new recent introduction of the RPW in West Galilea) , we know that authorities do not like to communicate when such problem occurs. This attitude has terrible consequences and it is clearly by absence or weakness of communication that the introduction of the RPW has lead to a huge disaster in Europe: more than 100.000 Phoenix canariensis destroyed and much more infested; more than 100 millions Euros wasted without any result because of the adoption of a counterproductive control strategy.

Because of an incredible imitation behavior, the concerned authorities of all the European countries have done the same mistakes. The RPW can be perfectly eradicated if, with the first discovered infested palm, a right global strategy is immediately engaged.

One key element of this strategy is early detection to avoid the dispersion of the pest. Phoenix canariensis is a preferential host for this pest and does not offer much resistance to its infestation. On the other hand, as a consequence of the specific infestation modalities of this pest on Phoenix canariensis, visible symptoms appear rapidly.

An intensive training must be organized rapidly to train plant protection personal, private and public palms owners, gardeners, palms professionals, and any volunteers to inspect palms to look for early symptoms. The cooperation of everybody is absolutely necessary. Concerned authorities in Europe have totally neglected and often rejected this cooperation. This behavior has constituted a very great mistake.

It is possible to avoid in California the repetition of the disaster that has occurred in all the european countries. A large experience has been acquired on the control of this pest in urban environment. Mistakes that have been repeated in the European countries can and must be avoided.

One of this basic mistake has been to consider that eradication of this pest was not possible. Such opinion is at the opposite of a sound analysis of the problem: there in no other solution except the eradication to save the palms. The red palm weevil is a quick killer. It has a very high multiplication capacity; it is capable to fly and the concerned palms are located in urban environment. In these conditions, for practical and financial reasons, reducing the impact of this pest by permanent treatments program is unrealistic and confining the weevil is impossible. Eradication is the only solution. It is well known that the success of an eradication program depends very much of its implementation as soon as the pest is detected.

So hurry up.

Best regards.

Michel Ferry

INRA

Scientific director of the Phoenix Research Station

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mlovecan

I had several questions/reservations about that microwave device.

The first, which I assume was just answered, was whether the system was designed to save the tree or just to kill the weevils and cook the tree to prevent them from spreading - since burning them was not recommended. I was afraid it might just be a huge microwave oven. :)

The second was how long the device had to stay on to treat the tree, and for a tall tree how long would that be and could it even reach that high.

And the third was whether the device could treat the crown. It appears from some pics as if the beetle actually lived and ate inside the petioles of the tree. And it didn't look to me as if the device could treat the crownal region.

If you visit the site, they have a brochure in English.

As Dave mentioned, the thing looks wildly expensive, but really seems to do the trick.

It does treat the crown ( obviously essential since that's where the cocoons are made ) after a bit of a "hurricane cut" and takes 40 minutes to treat a mature specimen.

It's too bad this thing was not around when Greece actually had cash. On the whole, I see no palms in Greece's future. Could be a very realistic solution for a rich place like California!

Regards

Maurice

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Dypsisdean

This is extremly depressing. Imagine California without its Canary Island Date Palms. Think of the coming generations that may never be inspired by their majestic beauty. I really hope an epidemic can be avoided.

We must keep this out of Hawai'i at all costs. Thankfully it is illegal to import any palm parts from the mainland into Hawai'i. I don't know if this is enough to stop it, but I hope so.

Jacob,

I contacted the Ag Dept. here in Hawaii. They were receptive and I sent them a link to this topic. But to my amazement, they had never heard of this threat. In addition, if I understood correctly, it is the USDA that would manage the importation of any "dead" material like the artificial palm trees or carved items from the Philippines that may harbor the weevil.

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Charles Wychgel

Two very depressing pictures near Lagos,Portugal

post-37-041428800 1287298763_thumb.jpg

A new definition of deadheading?

post-37-028567200 1287298813_thumb.jpg

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palmpuppy

It's too bad this thing was not around when Greece actually had cash. On the whole, I see no palms in Greece's future. Could be a very realistic solution for a rich place like California!

Regards

Maurice

California? Rich??? Are you kidding or are you not aware that this state is broke. B R O K E

With no relief in sight. Seriously.

Jackie

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gyuseppe

in Italy they say that there is no money to fix the problem, but is not it, how many public structures built with tax money and then they are unused,in Italy are many public facilities built with tax money and then they are unused.

all citizens of California must act quickly, you have to use the public authorities,the Red Palm multiply rapidly, invade the florida and will be a disaster !!!! :(

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palmpuppy

in Italy they say that there is no money to fix the problem, but is not it, how many public structures built with tax money and then they are unused,in Italy are many public facilities built with tax money and then they are unused.

all citizens of California must act quickly, you have to use the public authorities,the Red Palm multiply rapidly, invade the florida and will be a disaster !!!! :(

California is so broke, that it IS selling off its buildings. Unfortunately, it looks like *that* is going to put California tax payers even more in the hole down the road....

California sells off state properties

'Some of those buildings being sold include the attorney general's office and the California Emergency Management Agency in Sacramento.'

Hmmmm.... I wonder what all the 'California Emergency Management Agency' encompasses....

Jackie

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John in Andalucia

California is so broke, that it IS selling off its buildings. Unfortunately, it looks like *that* is going to put California tax payers even more in the hole down the road....

California sells off state properties

'Some of those buildings being sold include the attorney general's office and the California Emergency Management Agency in Sacramento.'

Hmmmm.... I wonder what all the 'California Emergency Management Agency' encompasses....

Jackie

Hopefully, the thread will stay on topic. It doesn't need references to California's governmental sell-offs, which is a little provocative to be posting, since it harbours political overtones. Please remember that we are discussing Red Palm Weevil - Rhynchophorus ferrugineus, and trying to add constructively!

A lot of people are contributing multiple posts to this thread who have first-hand experience with the destruction RPW is causing, so I don't see the need for any potential, politically-charged debate, thank you. And yes, I do think this is the kind of thread that deserves to be defended! smilie.gif

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John in Andalucia

We could do our part as Internet users and IPS members, regardless of where we live, by helping to maintain awareness. I found this website for example: http://www.arborwell...palm-weevil.asp

Perhaps a quick contact with the site owners, regarding their "Palm Tree Pests" web page: "The Palmetto Weevil, (Rhynchophorus cruentatus) is native to Florida and is the only species of palm weevil in the continental United States."

Every website that mentions palm trees should be highlighting this latest outbreak. If these sites care, they will update their web pages and put a very serious message out to plant lovers, in the form of of a "newsflash". Time really is of the essence, and swiftness is the key to successful eradication. We need to "breed" similarly, with counter-offensive tactics!

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palmpuppy

....

Hmmmm.... I wonder what all the 'California Emergency Management Agency' encompasses....

Jackie

Hopefully, the thread will stay on topic. It doesn't need references to California's governmental sell-offs, which is a little provocative to be posting, since it harbours political overtones. Please remember that we are discussing Red Palm Weevil - Rhynchophorus ferrugineus, and trying to add constructively!

A lot of people are contributing multiple posts to this thread who have first-hand experience with the destruction RPW is causing, so I don't see the need for any potential, politically-charged debate, thank you. And yes, I do think this is the kind of thread that deserves to be defended! smilie.gif

My response was to Gyuseppe's comment that "all citizens of California must act quickly, you have to use the public authorities,the Red Palm multiply rapidly, invade the florida and will be a disaster !!!!" and his remark that there are public buildings in Italy that could be sold and those funds used to fight this invasion which he says is not happening. One of the California buildings to be sold to generate revenue for government operation here designated prior to this discovery contains the California Emergency Management Agency which I assume (but am not sure) would be responsible for addressing this emergency. I don't anticipate this agency will disappear but it accentuates the emergency level of funds for our state (if sold, the state will then be paying rent for the same building which means more future debt). The fact that the government is broke and funds are scarce is definitely part of the problem not only for Italy, Spain and other parts of Europe but for here, also. How do you fight this without the funds and will California have the funds to deal with this as an emergency? I suppose it depends on how big it gets. There are a lot of other financial emergencies here that have to be dealt with.

You may not think a government's ability or inability to pay is part of the equation but from other comments in this thread, it has played a major part in the spread of this foreign invader. I don't know. It just got here. I'm responding to others' comments about the lack of government funds.

Jackie

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John in Andalucia

....

Hmmmm.... I wonder what all the 'California Emergency Management Agency' encompasses....

Jackie

Hopefully, the thread will stay on topic. It doesn't need references to California's governmental sell-offs, which is a little provocative to be posting, since it harbours political overtones. Please remember that we are discussing Red Palm Weevil - Rhynchophorus ferrugineus, and trying to add constructively!

A lot of people are contributing multiple posts to this thread who have first-hand experience with the destruction RPW is causing, so I don't see the need for any potential, politically-charged debate, thank you. And yes, I do think this is the kind of thread that deserves to be defended! smilie.gif

My response was to Gyuseppe's comment that "all citizens of California must act quickly, you have to use the public authorities,the Red Palm multiply rapidly, invade the florida and will be a disaster !!!!" and his remark that there are public buildings in Italy that could be sold and those funds used to fight this invasion which he says is not happening. One of the California buildings to be sold to generate revenue for government operation here designated prior to this discovery contains the California Emergency Management Agency which I assume (but am not sure) would be responsible for addressing this emergency. I don't anticipate this agency will disappear but it accentuates the emergency level of funds for our state (if sold, the state will then be paying rent for the same building which means more future debt). The fact that the government is broke and funds are scarce is definitely part of the problem not only for Italy, Spain and other parts of Europe but for here, also. How do you fight this without the funds and will California have the funds to deal with this as an emergency? I suppose it depends on how big it gets. There are a lot of other financial emergencies here that have to be dealt with.

You may not think a government's ability or inability to pay is part of the equation but from other comments in this thread, it has played a major part in the spread of this foreign invader. I don't know. It just got here. I'm responding to others' comments about the lack of government funds.

Jackie

Jackie, you are right, but that's not the issue. The point is, anything that smells of a need for political lobbying is not debatable on PalmTalk. I've been here long enough to know how easily a topic can get sidetracked. Again, I have no personal issue with your post, and in "criticizing", I was not downplaying the facts of the matter. We have a unique position as IPS and forum members to be pro-active, but we have to avoid the obvious, hot subjects synonymous with words such as "governments". It's just the forum rules. Your comments and links are both valid and enlightening, but they could easily spark a debate. smilie.gif

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