Lavoixia macrocarpa

[John in Andalucia]

I was fortunate enough today to be offered two seeds of Lavoixia macrocarpa by RPS, for the purpose of documenting my attempts to germinate this difficult palm using the de-lidding technique. The seeds will hopefully be arriving within the next 10-14 days. I had great success earlier this year at germinating seeds using this method, both fresh seeds that are notoriously fickle, such as Lemurophoenix, as well as a number of "old" seeds that were induced into germinating in just a matter of days, including Brahea sp. Clara and Jubaea. Several members have subsequently achieved similar results with their own trials both here, and on the European Palm Society forum. The technique is not new, but I may have been the first person to photo-document my results here on PalmTalk.

In the run up to this experiment, it would be prudent of me to invite comments and hear any stories pertaining to this unique species. To know exactly what I am up against, you need only read the entry for this palm on the PACSOA website: Lavoixia macrocarpa

If you know of a specimen anywhere, or would simply like to join in and offer advice, then please do. Hopefully it will be a community effort!

[PalmatierMeg]

John, no advice from me except: Rock on! What I've read about these seeds chills my blood. Kudos to RPS for offering you the chance to try your delidding method on this unbelievably difficult species. Keep us apprised.

[Tyrone]

At 560 Euro approx for 10 seeds it's well worth a try on 2 seeds.

I'm not game to shell out that sort of dough for anything.

I'm not questioning there value though. Incredibly rare, incredibly difficult to germinate, and for me probably incredibly difficult to grow. I couldn't handle losing a seedling at that cost. Would maybe try it if I had a fully computerised and controlled greenhouse. I'll leave that to NASA.

[Kostas]

I am the fortunate owner of 3 of these seeds as well more than a month now. I am trying to germinate them in the way that worked for Lemurophoenix with me(very high humidity and very moist but clean and open medium). I have some time to check on them as I surely don't expect fast results. I am keeping them at room temprature and will leave them that way in hope that all this might recreate their natural environment where some seeds do sprout. I think so far they dont fungus at all despite all the high moisture air and germination medium as none other New Caledonian seeds do as well. Now if only they sprout...

It's great Toby decided to give you a try on this species! The seeds are somewhat weird in shape and definately smaller than Chambeyronia macrocarpa. I think finding and removing the cover can be done in a very gentle way but I expect the embryo to be on the small size like most New Caledonian palms. I have tried deliding a couple Basselina pancheri seeds in the past without success at having them sprout. They sat there doing nothing and eventually rot setted in after a few weeks. It's certainly worth trying but be careful as the embryo will probably be very small and strangely positioned under the lid. In Basselina,I think that the embryo was partially attached firmly to the lid and lid removal probably damaged the embryo to the point of killing it. In Basselina the lid is visible and has an apendage from which you can lift it with your nail so it was all carefully done and without the use of difficult to handle equipment. Lavoixia has a similar apendage which I think lifting it would lift the lid but check it out yourself and make sure the embryo is not tightly tucked and stuck just beneath,partially inside this appendage or firmly connected to the lid as I suspect it is in Basselina and hence my failure.

Btw,one of my Lemurophoenix seeds finally germinated on it's own a few months back and has already pushed it's first leaf halfway out! It's just awesome!!!

The other seed has rotted.

I wish you absolute success in germinating Lavoixia using your method and be the first to own this stunning palm

It's also very kind of Toby to offer you 2 seeds to try out!

[John in Andalucia]

Kostas, thank you very much. Well, you have the same task in hand too, so good luck with yours! On the RPS website there is a cross-section photo of the seed, where it clearly shows the position of the embryo. This will simplify things a lot: http://www.rarepalms...ix/LavMac.shtml

[Kailua_Krish]

Good luck!

-Krishna

[Kostas]

Thank you very much John!

I hadn't seen the entry at RPS nor the photo,thanks for bringing it to my attention! This photo will indeed be of great help in deliding! Embryo seems ok size to not be too risky but again too small for the seed size as with most NC palms. Looks like you may have to do some grinding as well...The shell is really hard,like peach seeds in texture and hardness. But maybe there is a weak point somewhere for the embryo to emerge...Good to see the embryo is almost flat with the seed and separated from the shell!

Let's see if we can make any to germinate in some way!

[Gbarce]

THis is pretty exciting!

Also very relevant,because if a specialized technique proves successful it can very well bring the species out of the "danger zone for extinction".

I'd love to give it a try too but the cost of the seeds and the odds stacked against actually germinating them (and eventually growing the palm) is pretty deterring.

Good luck guys!

I look forward to the updates!!!

[Matt in SD]

John,

Can you describe your de-lidding technique, or point me to a previous post where you describe it if there is one?

I'm very jealous about the Lavoixia seeds. I saw those on the new list...and then saw the price. No way. I just can't bear to risk that much on some seeds. But kudos to Toby for getting these.

Matt

[John in Andalucia]

John,

Can you describe your de-lidding technique, or point me to a previous post where you describe it if there is one?

I'm very jealous about the Lavoixia seeds. I saw those on the new list...and then saw the price. No way. I just can't bear to risk that much on some seeds. But kudos to Toby for getting these.

Matt

Sure, Matt. Here is a link to my second topic. It starts with a link to the first: http://www.palmtalk....=1

[Burgal]

Is big challenge, is pretty exciting

Kostas and John we hope forward to the updates

Good luck!!!

[John in Andalucia]

Seeds arrived today by UPS. Toby has gone all out and sent me FOUR seeds! It's late in the evening, but I will post some photos starting tomorrow. They really do look like peach stones too!

[Matt in SD]

John,

I finally had a chance to look at your previous posts. Very cool. The only thing I can't figure out is how do you know where the embryo will be? I was poking around with some seed, and it seemed easy to find when it was rotten...there was a soft spot on the seed that would ooze nasty stuff out. But for the good seed, I had trouble.

Is it harder for seed with ruminate endosperm? I was poking around with some Dypsis marojejyi and found that it was very hard/impossible to get the embryo exposed without exposing adjacent endosperm where the ruminations came close to the seed surface.

Some photos of seeds showing you can determine the position of the embryo would be great.

Matt

[BS Man about Palms]

Yeah. What Matt said.

[LJG]

Good luck John! I think germinating is the least of your problems with this plant.

[John in Andalucia]

John,

I finally had a chance to look at your previous posts. Very cool. The only thing I can't figure out is how do you know where the embryo will be? I was poking around with some seed, and it seemed easy to find when it was rotten...there was a soft spot on the seed that would ooze nasty stuff out. But for the good seed, I had trouble.

Is it harder for seed with ruminate endosperm? I was poking around with some Dypsis marojejyi and found that it was very hard/impossible to get the embryo exposed without exposing adjacent endosperm where the ruminations came close to the seed surface.

Some photos of seeds showing you can determine the position of the embryo would be great.

Matt

This is the crux, because actually, I've never de-lidded a seed that I didn't previously germinate, or have a young seedling of with the seed attached, so a positive ID was always possible. Even so, if you take Brahea armata for example, you can really only identify "which end" the embryo lies at. Then within a "crosshair", the embryo can either be spot on, or 3-4mm within the crosshair. Additionally, since Brahea armata and similar type seeds don't have a "lid", it means you have no choice but to expose small patches of endosperm to reveal the embryo. I'm unfamiliar with all the technical descriptions for endosperm types (other than ruminate), but for soft endosperm types such as Jubaea, the exposed endosperm in conjunction with a germinating embryo is very susceptible to fungal attack. Not such a problem with the dense endosperm of a Brahea armata seed, although I don't think any seed is invincible under these circumstances, and the older and weaker the seed, the higher the chance of fungal attack, so cleanliness is paramount. Sterile medium, mineral water, moving the seeds around, and changing the medium for fresh, a few hours after germination occurs, is vital to safeguard against fungal attack. Germination in water might also be worth trying. I know Ravenea glauca and several other species of palm seeds will swell and "pop" in water.

If it helps at all, here are a few scans I made a couple of years ago. From L to R they are; Brahea armata, Bismarckia nobilis, Caryota obtusa, Syagrus romanzoffiana.

[John in Andalucia]

Let's get started..

The seeds are quite tough and have a unique, flat edge..

This makes identifying the location of the embryo quite easy..

I began by removing the flat edge, or "seam" to get better access, then started removing endocarp material with a blade. Once the outline begins to appear, I began to cut around at angle, bevelling the seed to make the embryo region more prominent.

The blade I use doesn't have a handle, cos you get more feedback that way! Eventually, I was able to use the corner of the blade to "flip" the thin flake of material that lies between the endocarp and endosperm. What's that called? You see it on coconuts, and Chambeyronia macrocarpa seeds. You can now see the moist embryo creating a dark spot, under an even thinner membrane..

Carefully scratch that off, and the embryo is revealed.

Then it's straight into a sterile germination mix, and sealed with a lid!

The germination mix comprises fine grade vermiculite. Taking one pint of vermiculite, I added a level teaspoon of rooting hormone, blending well with a fork. For a little moisture, I'm using mineral water. One litre, with a teaspoon of soluble seaweed extract for good measure. In all, I added a quarter cup of liquid, or roughly 50ml to one pint of vermiculite.

[BS Man about Palms]

Cut part down or up in the cup?

Can you put arrows on where you expose those "sectioned" seeds So I have a feel for whats supposed to "pop thru", where?

High heat or what?

[MattyB]

Good luck John! Thank you for your thorough documentation and your generosity of sharing it with us. I'll take 2 please. Preferably pre-germinated.

[John in Andalucia]

Cut part down or up in the cup?

Ex-squeeze me?? What does that mean please?

Can you put arrows on where you expose those "sectioned" seeds So I have a feel for whats supposed to "pop thru", where?

Yes, anything is possible.

High heat or what?

Hello, not too much heat. The weather here is breaking this weekend, so I've opted to bring this one indoors. I have the germination pot sitting on a 12V transformer on top of my PC. The temperature is a steady 24C-26C. That's 75F-79F. I want to wait at least 3 days before starting the second seed. If there's no movement on this first one, the second one will go in the greenhouse, and will see a greater variation in temperature. Most likely 17C-30C (62F-86F) on a bright/sunny day. Then I'll wait a week before starting on the other two seeds.

Thanks Matt, for your support. Let's see how germination progresses!

[BS Man about Palms]

John, I can see the "unshaven" part of the seed sown in the cup. I just can't tell where the part is that you shaved. Or does it matter?

[peachy]

I saw those seeds too and thought Toby is going to be stuck with those for a while. I could buy a lot of botox with EU 560 and get guaranteed results for my money. However, thanks John for posting this, as I have 35 bags and containers of seeds bought up to 12 months ago that have done absolutely nothing so I am going to try my inexperienced hand at delidding. It doesnt matter if I muck it up and kill them, they were only going to be thrown out and sworn over anyhow. At least this way there is a slight chance of me recouping some of my significant losses.

Peachy

[John in Andalucia]

John, I can see the "unshaven" part of the seed sown in the cup. I just can't tell where the part is that you shaved. Or does it matter?

Ah! Sorry Bill, you lost me for a moment. The embryo is pushed straight down. I don't think it matters, as long as the embryo doesn't dry out. Maybe flat seeds should rest on their side, but since I've exposed the embryo, I don't think mimicking nature's course is too vital at this point.

[John in Andalucia]

I saw those seeds too and thought Toby is going to be stuck with those for a while. I could buy a lot of botox with EU 560 and get guaranteed results for my money. However, thanks John for posting this, as I have 35 bags and containers of seeds bought up to 12 months ago that have done absolutely nothing so I am going to try my inexperienced hand at delidding. It doesnt matter if I muck it up and kill them, they were only going to be thrown out and sworn over anyhow. At least this way there is a slight chance of me recouping some of my significant losses.

Peachy

Go for it , Peachy. It's very satisfying to do this to seeds that you have all but given up on!

[John in Andalucia]

Well, it's eight days since I de-lidded the first seed, and just today, I noticed that the embryo is starting to swell! It really is slow progress however, and only noticeable when I held the seed up to the light, and realised that the embryo was no longer "flush" with the shaved surface of the endocarp. I de-lidded the other seeds exactly the same way, 3 days apart. The fourth seed will be de-lidded tomorrow. Seed no. 3 had a slightly yellow and wet looking embryo and has since developed a tiny brown spot at the centre of the embryo, where it displays a classic "dimple". Just as well I am keeping these in near-dry vermiculite. In a few more days I will try and scan the first seed to get a better image of what is actually occurring.

[LJG]

I am excited for you John. I would love to follow this through the years as this has to be one of the more fascinating palms around.

[John in Andalucia]

I am excited for you John. I would love to follow this through the years as this has to be one of the more fascinating palms around.

Thanks Len. With my poor, short-term memory, today was fun.. constantly forgetting and remembering what is potentially quite an achievement. I have my fingers crossed for 2 out of 4. One seedling would be a triumph, but two would feel like a home run!

[John in Andalucia]

I was quite surprised to find a seedling photo of Lavoixia macrocarpa on Flickr! It's described as being in a New Caledonian private collection. See here: http://www.flickr.co...0nz/4446105931/

For anyone who has not read the story of this palm's rediscovery, it is documented on PACSOA - separate from the Lavoixia macrocarpa species page: http://www.pacsoa.or...ediscovery.html

[BS Man about Palms]

[Toby]

John,

I heard that all the seedlings in cultivation (less than a handful in New Caledonia and apparently in Thailand) were dug up from the wild as seedlings, so that is cheating really...

[John in Andalucia]

John,

I heard that all the seedlings in cultivation (less than a handful in New Caledonia and apparently in Thailand) were dug up from the wild as seedlings, so that is cheating really...

It does sound a little like trophy hunting, I agree. So having read the article on the rediscovery, presumably there are next to no seedlings left in the wild?

Well here's some exciting news. The embryo on my first seed has visibly changed shape in the last 24 hours, I think it's worth showing the scanned image. This is undoubtedly a germinating Lavoixia macrocarpa seed! The embryo looks in good health, and there are no signs of fungal infection. Based on previous successes with de-lidding, this seed should be good to sprout!

[John in Andalucia]

Two seeds are now are showing healthy, developing embryos. One seed I threw out already, and the fourth will probably follow. The embryo in that one is completely brown and sinking. This reminds me of the Lemurophoenix seeds I de-lidded, in that the button growth is going to be very slow. A germination rate of 50% is good, but for this particular species, it's immeasurably way beyond my expectations! More photos in due course.

[John in Andalucia]

Another update, and the remaining seed has actually germinated! It's a much smaller embryo, but a 75% success rate is excellent. The first seed is starting to produce a root.

[BS Man about Palms]

Thats great John!!

[BS Man about Palms]

Thats great John!!

[palmtreesforpleasure]

Hi John

Very well done, will need to experiment on syagrus seed first, would hate to waste any rare seed by getting it wrong

thanks for the education

regards

colin

[Gbarce]

Woohoo!!!!

Way to go John!!!!!!

Saving a palm from extinction!!!!

[GTClover]

Congratulations!

[MattyB]

Stop taking them out and looking at them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Toby]

That really is an excellent success John! I can only repeat here that Lavoixia has been said to be impossible to germinate and serious fears have been voiced that it may even go extinct because of that.

I hope you are using a good fungicide to keep these sprouts safe!

Now I'll have to try to get you some Hyophorbe amaricaulis I guess.

Best, TOBY