Jump to content
palmtreesforpleasure

Rhopalostylis sapida

Recommended Posts

john_tas
13 hours ago, HASNZ38S said:

Sorry just to clarify my above reply:

The picture was taken in a reserve under the rainforest canopy where frost is impossible. The only palms present will be the native sapida which grow in abundance and relatively quickly when fighting for light under the dense canopy. Hence easily the best outcomes for sapida if growing at home is dense shade which forces the palm to grow faster with noticeably larger leaf scar intervals and wide open growth habit. Once in the light it grows with a more typical shaving brush form. 

I don't think the -9.9C was in 2009 but I might be wrong. I have lived in Hamilton since 1998 and can't remember it getting below -7 C in that time period (I think the -9.9C was in the 70s or 80s). Every winter we see nights of -5 C, although this year has been unseasonably warm with only a few frosts and one night where it got to almost -4C. Irrespective, the temperature here get very very low in comparison to the coast due to the low wind speeds and lack of large thermal mass to regulate the temperature (in summer it also means very hot humid days- always a degree or two more than auckland). For instance the temperature tonight is set to reach 0 C whilst in auckland (only 1hr North) it will be 10C even though the daytime temp is set to be almost identicle. 
 
there is quite a range of palms grown here, I personally have quite a number including dypsis baronii and bangalows etc that are equal to or slightly more hardy than the nikaus. The bangalow at my family's place is easily 20 years old and almost 10m in height and will have easily been through freezes well below -5 C. I'm forever pulling out seedlings and am currently growing around 100 bangalow palms - it is only a matter of time before they are banned for propagation. Our local gardens are internationally recognised as some of the best in the world. They have a number of themed gardens, one of which is the subtropical garden and is well worth a look with a variety of cold tolerant Palm species. I suspect the only thing keeping all the palms from burning away in the frosts here is the duration of freeze??? I mean although it gets very cold here it is for an extremely short duration unlike our continental alternatives.

Thats encouraging as I'd guess my climate is quite similar to yours, maybe not quite as quick to warm up in the day, the sub zero temps could last for around 6 hrs here but generally alot less.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
HASNZ38S
14 hours ago, Mohsen said:

That's all I hope I have here...although we got 0 or even -1 or -2 few times in winter it is only for 1-2 hours near 7:00 AM and then it get warmer quickly ...

anothet good thing here is that when there is frost the sky is clear so it will be a sunny day and temp get around 20 in afternoon...if it is Cloudy or rainy then temp is never get below 5 even if the max during the day also would be not more then 14-25...I guess Hamilton should be the same too...

That might be why so far my Foxtail is happy and unharmed ...

Yeah you're right, rainy weather is more mild. Due to the low wind speeds in Hamilton we are well known for foggy days which is ok because no frost of course. Sunny clear days that follow clear nights brings frost but the duration of freeze is limited. It is always interesting to see others posting about temperatures and having issues yet the numbers they give are not abnormal for where I am, hence the only thing I can think of is freeze duration as daytime temperature are always well well above freezing.

 

Foxtails are are out of the question in NZ... Never seen one here. I wonder if that has more to do with the lack of heat than the presence of cold? Places like auckland surely don't get too cold for them... In Hamilton there is no problem with summer heat but the night time temps are too low I know that. 

Edited by HASNZ38S
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
HASNZ38S
6 hours ago, john_tas said:

Thats encouraging as I'd guess my climate is quite similar to yours, maybe not quite as quick to warm up in the day, the sub zero temps could last for around 6 hrs here but generally alot less.  

Those -5C night can have 6 hours of sub zero though... Hence I'm still not so sure why many of these palms seem to survive quite well, it's not like people are pushing the boundaries by planting them and they are all very available at nurseries. Does humidity matter? Almost always above 60% like auckland and typically in the 80% sort of range.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mohsen
1 hour ago, HASNZ38S said:

Yeah you're right, rainy weather is more mild. Due to the low wind speeds in Hamilton we are well known for foggy days which is ok because no frost of course. Sunny clear days that follow clear nights brings frost but the duration of freeze is limited. It is always interesting to see others posting about temperatures and having issues yet the numbers they give are not abnormal for where I am, hence the only thing I can think of is freeze duration as daytime temperature are always well well above freezing.

 

Foxtails are are out of the question in NZ... Never seen one here. I wonder if that has more to do with the lack of heat than the presence of cold? Places like auckland surely don't get too cold for them... In Hamilton there is no problem with summer heat but the night time temps are too low I know that. 

Interesting that there is no Foxatail not even in Auckland...I couldn't see one wither when I was there for 2 weeks, now I am, thinking...

I thought that Auckland is similar to coastal region in Sydney...I am not sure why is that and if I can grow Foxtail here but none in Auckland ??? we will see...

BTW, how about Bizzie, any in Auckland?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
HASNZ38S
21 hours ago, Mohsen said:

Interesting that there is no Foxatail not even in Auckland...I couldn't see one wither when I was there for 2 weeks, now I am, thinking...

I thought that Auckland is similar to coastal region in Sydney...I am not sure why is that and if I can grow Foxtail here but none in Auckland ??? we will see...

BTW, how about Bizzie, any in Auckland?

I lived in auckland for 4 years from 2007 to 2011 and never ever saw a foxtail. I'm well aware of that they look like as my parents have a few in brisbane. Bizzie? Not sure what that is.

auckland would be similar to Sydney's Coast where extremes of heat and cold are rarer but still on average a bit coolers. However Sydney clearly has a better variety. Golden cane palms are not worth trying in Auckland but are common in parts of sydney. I would assume the conditions for them and foxtails are similar? I have seen a number of golden canes up in the far north of NZ but still never a foxtail. Maybe other kiwis might know of where they have been tried.

 

 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pip

Bizzie= Bismarkia nobilis

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mohsen
5 hours ago, HASNZ38S said:

I lived in auckland for 4 years from 2007 to 2011 and never ever saw a foxtail. I'm well aware of that they look like as my parents have a few in brisbane. Bizzie? Not sure what that is.

auckland would be similar to Sydney's Coast where extremes of heat and cold are rarer but still on average a bit coolers. However Sydney clearly has a better variety. Golden cane palms are not worth trying in Auckland but are common in parts of Sydney. I would assume the conditions for them and foxtails are similar? I have seen a number of golden canes up in the far north of NZ but still never a foxtail. Maybe other kiwis might know of where they have been tried.

 

 

I would doubt that Golden and foxtail has similar needs or at least same cold hardy...

I can see many golden cane in western Sydney but no sign of Foxtail, I think the cold and frost would kill them but not Golden cane ...

Golden Cane should be much cold hardier Foxtails But I am new in palms so I might be wrong...

5 hours ago, HASNZ38S said:

Oh yeah of course:

http://www.landscapedesign.co.nz/land_images_cust/download6714749.pdf

basic list of common palms for sale in NZ (auckland and northwards)

That's great to be able to grow Bismakia...Have you seen any mature specimen ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
HASNZ38S
19 hours ago, Mohsen said:

I would doubt that Golden and foxtail has similar needs or at least same cold hardy...

I can see many golden cane in western Sydney but no sign of Foxtail, I think the cold and frost would kill them but not Golden cane ...

Golden Cane should be much cold hardier Foxtails But I am new in palms so I might be wrong...

That's great to be able to grow Bismakia...Have you seen any mature specimen ?

Yeah I did a bit of a search after your message and I'm pretty sure foxtail is impossible in NZ and no one has successfully grown one. The one golden cane I've seen outdoors in the far north of nz was a bit of a disappointment, dypsis baronii are a better choice and tend to look better here (although in more suitable climates the golden cane does look better). 

Never seen a mature bismarkia here but have seen a young one up north. dont think they have been grown here for very long?? Did see a mature triangle Palm up north though, that was a surprise...

probably a conversation for a dedicated New Zealand thread. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gary
On ‎7‎/‎19‎/‎2016‎ ‎2‎:‎26‎:‎24‎, Tyrone said:

Would love to get hold of some purple Rhopie seeds again. Give em another go with appropriate rat protection.

where did your last lot come from?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tyrone
7 hours ago, Gary said:

where did your last lot come from?

They were given to me by another palmy friend. Not sure of the origin. I couldn't believe that the rats ate every single one and left other seed completely untouched. 

My new location is a choice area for anything and everything Rhopie. Cold windy, wet, drizzly, no hot summer nights ever. Lots of water, good humus rich soil. I'm even looking at getting hold of some authentic NZ trees to start forming canopy, but not really sure where to start with that. I have an area that I want to turn into rainforest that is on the southern side of my neighbours tall trees. In winter it doesn't see any sun, but in summer it gets overhead sun. With a bit of canopy it wouldn't even get summer sun. I've been inspired by the dark cool and moist habitat shots where Rhopies get all droopy and stretched. I want to create that but first need summer canopy.

It's good to dream.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gary
On ‎7‎/‎21‎/‎2016‎ ‎7‎:‎01‎:‎11‎, HASNZ38S said:

Yeah I did a bit of a search after your message and I'm pretty sure foxtail is impossible in NZ and no one has successfully grown one. The one golden cane I've seen outdoors in the far north of nz was a bit of a disappointment, dypsis baronii are a better choice and tend to look better here (although in more suitable climates the golden cane does look better). 

Never seen a mature bismarkia here but have seen a young one up north. dont think they have been grown here for very long?? Did see a mature triangle Palm up north though, that was a surprise...

probably a conversation for a dedicated New Zealand thread. 

There are a small number of foxtail around north island with the biggest one up north but in general a waste of time.Golden cane is seen rarely outside and was one in Herne Bay at Alan Booths old garden.Bismarckia aren't that rare and was covered in an article in palm/cycad soc magazine a few years ago.To my knowledge they have been grown here for over 20yrs but most only beginning to trunk but not sure how big the one at paradise quarry is now.Nestlebrai in south head had a couple starting toget away but haven't been there since place was sold 3 or 4 years back

If your last  lot came from Wollongong BG then they are not the purple ones.I wasn't sure wether I sent you any years ago before you moved

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
HASNZ38S
19 hours ago, Gary said:

There are a small number of foxtail around north island with the biggest one up north but in general a waste of time.Golden cane is seen rarely outside and was one in Herne Bay at Alan Booths old garden.Bismarckia aren't that rare and was covered in an article in palm/cycad soc magazine a few years ago.To my knowledge they have been grown here for over 20yrs but most only beginning to trunk but not sure how big the one at paradise quarry is now.Nestlebrai in south head had a couple starting toget away but haven't been there since place was sold 3 or 4 years back

If your last  lot came from Wollongong BG then they are not the purple ones.I wasn't sure wether I sent you any years ago before you moved

Would be interesting to see a foxtail here if I get the chance soon. The golden cane I saw was at the Copthorne hotel in omapere on the hokianga.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gary

Foxtail aren't that rare here just rare at any big size.I think Palms Online still sell them.Attach pic is not a pic taken by me but is on a yahoogroup in nz for palms and cycads I run.Palm is upnorth.There was a golden cane also in Park Ave by Auckland Hosp and there is one in the wintergardens in Auckland Domain but that place is heated

foxtail.jpg

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gary

2 bismarckia in south Auckland garden

SANY6750.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
HASNZ38S
On 26 July 2016 7:13:45 pm, Gary said:

Foxtail aren't that rare here just rare at any big size.I think Palms Online still sell them.Attach pic is not a pic taken by me but is on a yahoogroup in nz for palms and cycads I run.Palm is upnorth.There was a golden cane also in Park Ave by Auckland Hosp and there is one in the wintergardens in Auckland Domain but that place is heated

foxtail.jpg

You sure that is a foxtail? My parents have quite a few in brisbane and none look anything like that at all... Unless that is because this is how they look in our climate??? Very ugly

Edited by HASNZ38S

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gary

I did try growing them in the 90s with no success beyond 3 leaf seedlings and them days seeds were $3au ea from k/Palms or Goozeff and think Kurt Butterfield also sold seed.I arranged some for Toby as well round 2003 when he was paying $400au/1000 and now prices are so cheap.300 plants were imported  mid90s by  The Palm Farm in Mangere Auckland but all died.There was one at nestlebraie bout 2.5m but is died now.I think Palmco and South Pacific of Kerikeri both tried growing them as well

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
tim_brissy_13

Gary - pretty sure that's a Roystonea. Possibly even more in need of heat than Wodyetia, so quite an achievement to grow one anywhere in NZ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gary
On ‎7‎/‎29‎/‎2016‎ ‎8‎:‎35‎:‎31‎, tim_brissy_13 said:

Gary - pretty sure that's a Roystonea. Possibly even more in need of heat than Wodyetia, so quite an achievement to grow one anywhere in NZ.

yes wrong pic as roystonea also on same property.You can only see trunk of wodyetia

Foxtail.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
richnorm
On 7/29/2016, 11:23:39, Gary said:

I did try growing them in the 90s with no success beyond 3 leaf seedlings and them days seeds were $3au ea from k/Palms or Goozeff and think Kurt Butterfield also sold seed.I arranged some for Toby as well round 2003 when he was paying $400au/1000 and now prices are so cheap.300 plants were imported  mid90s by  The Palm Farm in Mangere Auckland but all died.There was one at nestlebraie bout 2.5m but is died now.I think Palmco and South Pacific of Kerikeri both tried growing them as well

I have one Gary but stays in a dustbin so I can pull it under cover for a few months in winter. Has about a metre of trunk.   Also grow a spindle in similar way.  Also have  Golden cane in the ground for many years which looks fine but bonsaid.   Roystonea borinquena is slow but steady at my place but so far not much to look at.   Bizzies are fine in full sun with plenty of air flow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bennz
9 hours ago, Gary said:

yes wrong pic as roystonea also on same property.You can only see trunk of wodyetia

Foxtail.jpg

Not  a bad size plumeria for NZ either! Is it a particularly dry spot, or are the roots actually under the wall? I've found them difficult here in the ground, they are fine fully outside in pots so it is not a temperature thing as such, but I think the soil just gets too wet for too long without fast enough drainage in a normal NZ winter. I've been intending to try them again outside on raised mounds... but such is life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
richnorm
51 minutes ago, Bennz said:

Not  a bad size plumeria for NZ either! Is it a particularly dry spot, or are the roots actually under the wall? I've found them difficult here in the ground, they are fine fully outside in pots so it is not a temperature thing as such, but I think the soil just gets too wet for too long without fast enough drainage in a normal NZ winter. I've been intending to try them again outside on raised mounds... but such is life.

North facing sandy site outside Dargaville.....    Plumeria nearly always found in sites like that surrounded by concrete.  Perfect drainage seems insufficient alone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dave-Vero

I drove through Dargaville in June.  Considering that we in Florida have winter cold problems with Plumerias (occasional bad freezes), I'm somewhat amazed they'll grow so far south.  I haven't figured out the origins of common cultivated varieties, which might come from anywhere from Mexico and the Caribbean to Brazil.  Most are probably from dry-winter climates.  I'm willing to guess that some species are from fairly high elevations and may like cooler temperatures.  On the side, northern New Zealand's garden bromeliads look, at first glance, pretty similar to ours.  I know we have a fair number of NZ cultivars (NZ has excellent breeders).  

Of course another Florida problem for plumerias seems to be that people prune them too much.  

I wasn't looking, but didn't see any foxtails in Kerikeri.  They do very well for us.  Seedlings are almost a problem in a local botanical garden with a couple of huge foxtails bearing huge numbers of fruits, which squirrels disperse.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
john_tas

Those Hamilton lows have still got me confused especially 20yr old Bangalows having survived less than -5, another example of why not to put too much emphasis on min lows when other varaiables are at play...head scratching..

found this interesting seems like the Chatham (Pitt) island form can take -4 or less and is worth a second look

http://growingontheedge.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9543&hilit=Nikau

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
HASNZ38S
On 22 August 2016 11:27:17 pm, john_tas said:

Those Hamilton lows have still got me confused especially 20yr old Bangalows having survived less than -5, another example of why not to put too much emphasis on min lows when other varaiables are at play...head scratching..

found this interesting seems like the Chatham (Pitt) island form can take -4 or less and is worth a second look

http://growingontheedge.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9543&hilit=Nikau

 

 

Yeah, the bangalows have experienced lower than -5C but I'm not sure how old most are (see the frost hardy archontopheonix forum for more info). Counting the scars and assuming 4-5 fronds per year and I woundnt say the are actually that old and I haven't seen any mature specimens in Hamilton, unlike Auckland. Maybe the few extreme night have killed most. 

I have keremedec nikaus that are several years old. They got through a winter last year with a max low of -4.3C in Hamilton with very little noticeable damage - see below link for data. Min this winter was only -3C (see archontopheonix frost hardy forum), no damage visible on any palms (including dypsis baronii).

https://www.niwa.co.nz/sites/niwa.co.nz/files/Climate%20Statistics%20-%20July%202015.pdf

I think freeze duration might be the biggest factor... No one has provided a good explanation

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
john_tas

Must be a combination of the duration of the low temps and the thermal mass of larger plants, I guess a quick sub zero temp drop of a few hours below zero would not be long enough to chill the core of established plants to sub zero. With a daily air temperature range of say -5 to +15, the core of the plant may only range from say 0 to 10 deg between day and night, if large enough.

I'm no expert and excluding genetics and the relationship between heat, photosynthesis and rate of recovery, the following will affect survivability during sub zero temps:

- Freeze temperature of cell liquid (all liquids/chemicals have different freeze temperatures). When cells freeze and burst its bad news for plants. We've all seen frozen plants turn to mush, perhaps different fertiliser/soil could improve this and reduce freezing points?

- mass:surface area ratio, this is why leaf tips are the first bits to burn and why big plants are more hardy

- duration of freeze and daytime highs

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
john_tas

This is a typical cold frosty night for my area, my garden probably 1 degree colder at night and 1 degree warmer during the day than the record below, I could reasonably expect a low of -4 every other winter with 3 weeks of frosty mornings every winter not sure how this compares to your area?

http://www.eldersweather.com.au/obshist.jsp?lt=site&lc=91237

http://www.eldersweather.com.au/climate.jsp?lt=site&lc=91237

 

Edited by john_tas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
HASNZ38S
20 hours ago, john_tas said:

This is a typical cold frosty night for my area, my garden probably 1 degree colder at night and 1 degree warmer during the day than the record below, I could reasonably expect a low of -4 every other winter with 3 weeks of frosty mornings every winter not sure how this compares to your area?

http://www.eldersweather.com.au/obshist.jsp?lt=site&lc=91237

http://www.eldersweather.com.au/climate.jsp?lt=site&lc=91237

 

https://www.niwa.co.nz/sites/niwa.co.nz/files/import/attachments/summary.xls

The average ground frost days in Hamilton were 63 days per year for 1971 to 2000 with the min temp -9.9C. The climate has definitely changed since then and ground frosts where I am are probably not too disimilar to where you are, maybe only and extra week or so. Interestingly, note the average annual temperature for hamilton vs Auckland only a hours drive north and then note the minimum temp and ground frost days. Very different.

Compared to you the main different is humidity, rarely drops below 70% here. The high rainfall means that in general temperatures are pretty mild, tomorrow will be wet and 17C max with a low of 12C. But sunny days see the overnight temp generally below freezing this time of year with daytime highs of 15C in July/August. But overall similar temperature profile. The lowest high on record for the past 25yrs is 7C and that was equalled for the first time this year (freak one off event of fog following frosty morning).

im certain genetics won't have much to do with it. The palms I'm growing are only 3rd generation bangalows in Hamilton. Wouldn't expect that to have much of an impact. I think freeze duration plays the biggest part.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
john_tas

Nice link, can't say we fully understand what's going on in Hamilton compared to say here, Syagrus appears to be the long term limit around here, how do they go in Hamilton?

I think Sapida would be longterm option here in Launceston but only in a raised aspect out of frost hollows, not sure if that's overly cautious as I've got no proof just going on a few comments I've heard from tassie palm growers.

do you think that the Chatham island form sapida is any less hardy than the mainland form and how do the South Island, Banks peninsula and the west coast forms compare to the forms on the north island? Or are they all the same? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
HASNZ38S
On 27 August 2016 9:32:46 pm, john_tas said:

Nice link, can't say we fully understand what's going on in Hamilton compared to say here, Syagrus appears to be the long term limit around here, how do they go in Hamilton?

I think Sapida would be longterm option here in Launceston but only in a raised aspect out of frost hollows, not sure if that's overly cautious as I've got no proof just going on a few comments I've heard from tassie palm growers.

do you think that the Chatham island form sapida is any less hardy than the mainland form and how do the South Island, Banks peninsula and the west coast forms compare to the forms on the north island? Or are they all the same? 

Wouldn't have a clue sorry, neither naturally starts life in the open when it is most vulnerable and thus has few frost issues under the forest canopy. The chathams variety looks better with a more open crown when in the open compared to the mainland variety where I am from in the upper North island. 

Without knowing the temperature limit to either I would expect the mainland form more regularly experiences temperatures close to or below 0C whereas the Chatham Islands are very oceanic with cool summers and cold wet winters where freezing temperatures are rare because of the moderating effect of the ocean. I would guess the banks peninsular nikaus have experienced some cold temperatures and I have seen a couple growing in Christchurch in sheltered locations.

my suggestion is to build a canopy layer with tropical looking tree species and plant the nikaus below. They will end up looking better in the shade anyway. This is why I love the native New Zealand broadleaf varieties of trees. Their nearest relatives are from the tropics so they look quite tropical and yet they are relatively cold hardy. In Tasmania many would be right at home due to the higher rainfall in some areas and relatively mild climate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gary

here is one thing I don't like on Chatham form and seen it oftem

SANY7324.JPG

SANY7327.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tyrone
1 hour ago, Gary said:

here is one thing I don't like on Chatham form and seen it oftem

SANY7324.JPG

SANY7327.JPG

You mean planted in straight lines in a grid pattern like they're in some sort of plantation. I agree if that's what you mean. They sort of need company and a bit of protection from the elements.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gary

no,I don't like the bent looking base to trunk and this is often seen on this form.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bennz
30 minutes ago, Gary said:

no,I don't like the bent looking base to trunk and this is often seen on this form.

 

I had not noticed this Gary. Can it be induced on older palms? Cocos-look Nikau?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sir Oxylon
On 8/22/2016, 9:27:17, john_tas said:

Those Hamilton lows have still got me confused especially 20yr old Bangalows having survived less than -5, another example of why not to put too much emphasis on min lows when other varaiables are at play...head scratching..

found this interesting seems like the Chatham (Pitt) island form can take -4 or less and is worth a second look

http://growingontheedge.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9543&hilit=Nikau

 

 

Bangalows take -3 in towns north of Melbourne every now and then. The one I planted at my parents years ago took -3 last year. If they are in a protected site they are pretty cold tolerant. They are common here (you can buy them everywhere). You should definitely give it a try in Launceston if you can get one. I can give you one if you stop by mine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sir Oxylon

Chathams probably dont get as low in temperature as south Is NZ due to maritime influence. Saying that I think any of the Rhopalostylis would be worth a try in Launceston. Put them in a protected position.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...