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Rhopalostylis sapida

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chakoro

Troy i can see by the look on ya face how wrapped you were when the shot was taken,you both make a lovely couple thanks for sharing B) best chakoro

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malcthomas

I took these pics this morning...all are of different Kermadec Island Nikau growing on my property.

cheers...

Malcolm

Nice try Malcom, those don't even come close in color to "The ONE". The price of seed just tripled! :lol: Anyone want to trade thier gold bullion?

":drool: Wow ! This is THEE most beutiful palm for all us tropically challenged palm addicts YET!! :blink: You can boast about yer Lipstik palms, yer Orangecrush, But I am here today to unveil something EXRAORDINARY and shure to cause night sweats and heart palpatations around the planet for all my brothers and sisters in the temperate and mediteranian zones... are You readddy!? :huh:"

Bob with a sales pitch like that, I can appreciate your reaction to my post. You also mention above, "The palm has only been seeding for about 5yrs now and I really didn't notice the intense purple coloration until recently". Up until then "The One" had been pretty unremarkable, dito. I too had not noticed this purplisation on older leaf sheafs until recently, and the other day I showed some visitors your photos and asked them to compare them to one of my Kermadecs (I only have one eye and that's not the best). It was after they agreed that it was as purple as yours that I resurrected this thread. It is very late summer/early autumn here and this one is flowering also..(maybe they have been crossed with a Neoreglia)

Your palm is magnificent and I wish that I could grow them here as good, purple or green.

Time will tell if the colour holds or intensifies...I certainly will be more observant from now on. Will keep you posted...

Kind regards

Malcolm

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stygiana

Hi Gary,

How are things going under the long white cloud?

I was devastated to hear from the earthquake in Christchurch (and now Japan), but understood Auckland was fine.

In fact, I came back to NZ/Aotearoa twice since my first stay in 1996. First I went back in 2007, and then again in late 2008. So I visited Alberon (of course) to see how things changed (I love so much this place) and saw a big difference indeed. But still, I haven't seen anything close to the prima dona which is the subject of this topic.

Malcom, I know there is some variation with Kentias (and many other cultivated palms around the world). For example, I never heard of true dwarf Dypsis lutescens in the wild, while it is known to exist in the trade.

So maybe the term I used ("mutant") wasn't the most appropriated. Sorry for that. I rather meant "variant' or "variation" (is "strain" a good one?). So, with the right terminology, could it be one of these unusual forms which sometimes appear with cultivated plants? This is actually how so many cultivars were discovered in the horticulture history.

By the way, the nikaus I saw in Dargaville could simply fit in that option and would not be a distinct taxa at all.

So thank you Malcom for these pics and for reminding how much plants can naturally vary (even when grown from the same seeds and in the same soil).

Nevertheless, this plant is very special, and if it was just a "variant" (or a "variation" like Malcom's nikaus), there is something wrong : You can have strong morphologic changes for the trunks, leaves, etc. But for sexual parts, it's a different matter. They can't vary so easily. And the major botanical / taxinomic keys on this topic's nikau do not fit with any of the main taxa : The inflorescence is too long for a sapida. The fruits do not correspond to the main islands forms either (apparently, at least, but it would be better to have a closer look, with a ruler next to them).

However, the inflorescence is still not really (apparently) long enough for a baueri/cheesemanii, and the leaves look so much like Chatham/Pitt's...

But again, I might just be mislead by my thoughts...

One last point : Does any Kiwi on this forum have a photo of the famous isolated Akaroa population? (well, before asking such questions, I should rather have a look on the former topics!!! I'll end with negative ratings, hey...). I know the Akaroa nikaus do not have purple crown-shafts, but I always wondered if they looked closer to the South Island / Eastern North Islands forms, or if they looked closer to the Chatham ones? And never read any description concerning their reproductive organs. OK... I go now and search in the past topics...

Edited by Sebastian Bano

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stygiana

Thanks Troy for the photos (lucky guy!). I didn't watch carefully your pics before. Now it's clear there is problem in terms of taxinomy : The inflorescences on your photos are quite big, and long, and "open", etc. That's baueri / cheesemanii lineage for sure. But I never ever saw leaflets starting that low on the rachis on the Norfolk / Kermadecs. While they start right after the crown-shaft on this one... Again, these leaves look a lot like Chatham / Pitt to me. Someone with better knowledge on Rhopalostylis could confirm, or invalidate? Garry, please...

The more I look at it, the more I dream of it... In fact, you're right Troy : Why the .... do bother with theories on its origin, its beauty is what blows my mind. I read again the full thread, but I must be either half blind or pointless (or both)... but I haven't seen an answer to Garry's question : Where does this palm grow? I'm afraid it's a long way from here, if not, I may prepare plans for a palmy palm's palm trip soon...

Otherwise, I would be delighted to receive some seeds (I'm sorry but I don't know what I could send in exchange, as there's nothing so exciting around here... Palm weevil?)

Edited by Sebastian Bano

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Gary

Thanks Troy for the photos (lucky guy!). I didn't watch carefully your pics before. Now it's clear there is problem in terms of taxinomy : The inflorescences on your photos are quite big, and long, and "open", etc. That's baueri / cheesemanii lineage for sure. But I never ever saw leaflets starting that low on the rachis on the Norfolk / Kermadecs. While they start right after the crown-shaft on this one... Again, these leaves look a lot like Chatham / Pitt to me. Someone with better knowledge on Rhopalostylis could confirm, or invalidate? Garry, please...

The more I look at it, the more I dream of it... In fact, you're right Troy : Why the .... do bother with theories on its origin, its beauty is what blows my mind. I read again the full thread, but I must be either half blind or pointless (or both)... but I haven't seen an answer to Garry's question : Where does this palm grow? I'm afraid it's a long way from here, if not, I may prepare plans for a palmy palm's palm trip soon...

Otherwise, I would be delighted to receive some seeds (I'm sorry but I don't know what I could send in exchange, as there's nothing so exciting around here... Palm weevil?)

The doubt on the palm is origin and not so much colour.You must have seen leaflets start low on rachis[i have posted pics here of kermadec with this]From seedlings i have seen on this thread that others have grown, put the seedlings in the class of baueri.

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Gary

Hi Gary,

How are things going under the long white cloud?

I was devastated to hear from the earthquake in Christchurch (and now Japan), but understood Auckland was fine.

In fact, I came back to NZ/Aotearoa twice since my first stay in 1996. First I went back in 2007, and then again in late 2008. So I visited Alberon (of course) to see how things changed (I love so much this place) and saw a big difference indeed. But still, I haven't seen anything close to the prima dona which is the subject of this topic.

Malcom, I know there is some variation with Kentias (and many other cultivated palms around the world). For example, I never heard of true dwarf Dypsis lutescens in the wild, while it is known to exist in the trade.

So maybe the term I used ("mutant") wasn't the most appropriated. Sorry for that. I rather meant "variant' or "variation" (is "strain" a good one?). So, with the right terminology, could it be one of these unusual forms which sometimes appear with cultivated plants? This is actually how so many cultivars were discovered in the horticulture history.

By the way, the nikaus I saw in Dargaville could simply fit in that option and would not be a distinct taxa at all.

So thank you Malcom for these pics and for reminding how much plants can naturally vary (even when grown from the same seeds and in the same soil).

Nevertheless, this plant is very special, and if it was just a "variant" (or a "variation" like Malcom's nikaus), there is something wrong : You can have strong morphologic changes for the trunks, leaves, etc. But for sexual parts, it's a different matter. They can't vary so easily. And the major botanical / taxinomic keys on this topic's nikau do not fit with any of the main taxa : The inflorescence is too long for a sapida. The fruits do not correspond to the main islands forms either (apparently, at least, but it would be better to have a closer look, with a ruler next to them).

However, the inflorescence is still not really (apparently) long enough for a baueri/cheesemanii, and the leaves look so much like Chatham/Pitt's...

But again, I might just be mislead by my thoughts...

One last point : Does any Kiwi on this forum have a photo of the famous isolated Akaroa population? (well, before asking such questions, I should rather have a look on the former topics!!! I'll end with negative ratings, hey...). I know the Akaroa nikaus do not have purple crown-shafts, but I always wondered if they looked closer to the South Island / Eastern North Islands forms, or if they looked closer to the Chatham ones? And never read any description concerning their reproductive organs. OK... I go now and search in the past topics...

Dick had mentioned your more recent visits.I start our local yahoogroup in 2001 and the main pic on heading is Akaroa.Was at alberon yesterday and will include a pic of a coloured crownshaft of a baueri there.I will start another thread latter of another local confused rhopalostylis

post-109-001892100 1300652877_thumb.jpg

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stygiana

Well, I did too much gardening today for sure and there's mud in my eyes, as I missed your low starting leaflets' Kermadecs... Concerning your point on the seedlings, Garry, I can just agree with you. Seedlings tell a lot. Especially when it comes to Chatham's : their leaves are so narrow, so "tough", furry, special... While the baueri's are so broad. Two different worlds, and in that case the purple prima dona clearly goes in the second class, you're right!

Thanks for that purple crown-shafted nikau at Alberon, Garry. Have you seen Kermadecs with SO much white velvet on the rachis as on the one of this topic? Would you reckon it's a just a Kermadec (and then an unusual form / variant / whatsoever)?

Edited by Sebastian Bano

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Gary

Well, I did too much gardening today for sure and there's mud in my eyes, as I missed your low starting leaflets' Kermadecs... Concerning your point on the seedlings, Garry, I can just agree with you. Seedlings tell a lot. Especially when it comes to Chatham's : their leaves are so narrow, so "tough", furry, special... While the baueri's are so broad. Two different worlds, and in that case the purple prima dona clearly goes in the second class, you're right!

Thanks Garry. But... Would you reckon it's a just a Kermadec (but an unusual form / variant / whatsoever)?

Not saying its just a kermadec as colour is outstanding but am saying the purple trait is associated with this species as u can see by Malcolms pics.Little Barrier sapida???As for chathams,I get habitat colected seed quite often and have lots.Chathams are now a very common palm in Auckland and are producing seeds even in some parks

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malcthomas

Sebastian, kia ora

Sorry if I appear to be argumentative here, but these photos are of inflorescence of four different Kermadecs that I have just taken. If Bob's palm was pictured with an inflorescence as shown in any one of the first three photos, would you be concluding that it was not baueri based on your "But for sexual parts, it's a different matter. They can't vary so easily." (you were referring here to inflorescence size not flower size or number of stamens)

There are many erroneous generalisations that get printed on the various identifying features between Nikau 'sub species' and forms and "it can't be a baueri because it hasn't got long leaf petioles" is a good example. I have been pulled up on one myself by Michael by saying that I have never seen a mainland sapida with white flowers. I would still argue that a white flowered mainland sapida is an exception rather than the norm.(A bit like saying a human can have 5 or 6 fingers because I know a person who was born with 6.)

Chattham Island Nikau are described as having pink petioles, baueri/cheesmanii with brown. One year I took photos of a Chattham, cheesmanii and mainland sapida all with the same pink coloured petioles as to be indistinguishable. I collect from a cheesmanii that always has seed the size of marbles yet others are half that size.

I have an album somewhere of photographs I took on the Akaroa Nikau but its been misplaced. When I find it, I will forward it to you. To my eye these did not appear to be any different to our North Island East Coast Nikau. They are growing in a south facing, wind swept cove and I could say without hesitation that an Akaroa one grown in California would not resemble anything in habitat.

kind regards...

Malcolm

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post-249-084228000 1300658847_thumb.jpg

post-249-094115200 1300659241_thumb.jpg

post-249-090271300 1300659717_thumb.jpg

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Tassie_Troy1971

Yes Sebastian In person the palm is unbelieveably brilliant and as purple as can be . :drool:

Here is a pic of my little purple sapida of that same palm . Behind it is the Chatham Island Rhopalostylis that is a very robust grower for me and is only 4 months older than purple one .

post-1252-052992200 1300686520_thumb.jpg

With brother Chatham

post-1252-085979800 1300686562_thumb.jpg

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stygiana

Kia ora,

Malcom, I also hope you won't believe I argue, because I really appreciate your contribution and notes. So my real thoughts are : thank you. But I have to invalidate your statement :

- Photo n°1 : the inflorescence obviously just came out of its prophyll. It is, most definitely, not mature yet. So that's why it is so small and compact. Not doubt it looked (or will, if it's a recent pic) much bigger and open a few weeks later.

- Photo n°2 : "Gotcha!!!!!" Although the inflorescence on the left is actually small and compact, ... We can partially (but enough) see a fully mature one on the right. And it's a "big" "open" inflorescence.

- Photos 3 and 4 are typical.

So Yep, I stay on my words...

Concerning long leaf petioles, etc, I agree 100%. They are not consistent segregative characters. Even the colour of the inflorescence is not 100% reliable (though more helpful than leaves, trunks, crown-shafts, etc). Nevertheless, the length and form of inflorescences is quite a good key. If you guys can show me a single main islands' nikau with and over-50cm-long inflorescence (and no need to post a photo of an hybrid), then I'll eat my words, my books and even my pens. Garry, what do you reckon?

Further on, within the baueri / cheesemanii group, it is clear that many of the original "keys" weren't appropriate, as most nikaus' lovers know now (colour, fruits, etc). As it is often said, it is quite possible all nikaus belong to just one and a single species with different sub-species, varieties and forms. But what is sure is that baueri and cheesemanii are not different enough to be two species. They are soooo closely related.

Now, concerning the fact that a form grown in California (or somewhere else) does not look like its parents in the wild, you're 100 % right.

Even Chatham's in Auckland don't look exactly like the original ones in their habitat. However, baueris on mainland NZ (and elsewhere) always keep their long open inflorescence...

Mainland NZ... Mainland NZ... Ok for the Kermadecs, but Norfolk is Oz officially... Shhhhh!!! Pretend you haven't noticed (and Troy is from Tasmania, he may not argue).

Troy, thanks for the seedlings' photos. I think I can recognize Chatham on the background : the fur on the nerves of the segments (on both sides), the tougher look, the more pronounced segments (even though they are still joined). Mine are almost the same age, just a bit different. While the purple is quite distinct. But what it is, I don't know. A great plant for sure! Euuuuhhhh, by the way, still no spare seed? :crying: My offer of super fresh weevil larvae will end soon. You'll miss something my friends, as you never get bored with'em...

Edited by Sebastian Bano

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Gary

Kia ora,

Malcom, I also hope you won't believe I argue, because I really appreciate your contribution and notes. So my real thoughts are : thank you. But I have to invalidate your statement :

- Photo n°1 : the inflorescence obviously just came out of its prophyll. It is, most definitely, not mature yet. So that's why it is so small and compact. Not doubt it looked (or will, if it's a recent pic) much bigger and open a few weeks later.

- Photo n°2 : "Gotcha!!!!!" Although the inflorescence on the left is actually small and compact, ... We can partially (but enough) see a fully mature one on the right. And it's a "big" "open" inflorescence.

- Photos 3 and 4 are typical.

So Yep, I stay on my words...

Concerning long leaf petioles, etc, I agree 100%. They are not consistent segregative characters. Even the colour of the inflorescence is not 100% reliable (though more helpful than leaves, trunks, crown-shafts, etc). Nevertheless, the length and form of inflorescences is quite a good key. If you guys can show me a single main islands' nikau with and over-50cm-long inflorescence (and no need to post a photo of an hybrid), then I'll eat my words, my books and even my pens. Garry, what do you reckon?

Further on, within the baueri / cheesemanii group, it is clear that many of the original "keys" weren't appropriate, as most nikaus' lovers know now (colour, fruits, etc). As it is often said, it is quite possible all nikaus belong to just one and a single species with different sub-species, varieties and forms. But what is sure is that baueri and cheesemanii are not different enough to be two species. They are soooo closely related.

Now, concerning the fact that a form grown in California (or somewhere else) does not look like its parents in the wild, you're 100 % right.

Even Chatham's in Auckland don't look exactly like the original ones in their habitat. However, baueris on mainland NZ (and elsewhere) always keep their long open inflorescence...

Mainland NZ... Mainland NZ... Ok for the Kermadecs, but Norfolk is Oz officially... Shhhhh!!! Pretend you haven't noticed (and Troy is from Tasmania, he may not argue).

Troy, thanks for the seedlings' photos. I think I can recognize Chatham on the background : the fur on the nerves of the segments (on both sides), the tougher look, the more pronounced segments (even though they are still joined). Mine are almost the same age, just a bit different. While the purple is quite distinct. But what it is, I don't know. A great plant for sure! Euuuuhhhh, by the way, still no spare seed? :crying: My offer of super fresh weevil larvae will end soon. You'll miss something my friends, as you never get bored with'em...

A bunch of seed collected from Auckland Domain duck pond a few years back that are sapida and next time i collect one this size will get exact measurement.I will have somewhere as the pic would have been for a posting at the time

post-109-006504700 1300702484_thumb.jpg

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malcthomas

Sebastian, kia ora

This photo shows the prophylls from the trees in the infructescence photos one and four.

The inflorescence shown in photo three is 30cm long as is the mature one that you refer to as seen partially in photo two. (It is pouring with rain - flooding at the moment and have not rephotographed)

These are my personal observations with cheesmani and East Coast sapida:

- The spadix develops completely beneath the leaf sheath. It is only when it is fully developed that the leaf abscises. The prophyll can shed within hours and the fully formed rachillae will unfold from within it. There is no further growth of the peduncle or rachillae from this point. The male flowers will pollinate any earlier inflorescence and then drop. When the female flowers become receptive a new spathe will appear and they are pollinated from this.

The cheesmanii that I mentioned has seed the size of marbles is growing in ideal conditions and yields a couple of buckets of seed from each infructescence. A palm with an inflorescence as shown in photo one, even with 100 percent pollination would only produce a handful or two of seed.

I will photograph palm one in two weeks time.

kind regards,

Malcolm

post-249-045613800 1300732852_thumb.jpg

Edited by malcthomas

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stygiana

I start to regret buying varnished pens, they taste bad and they are surely not very healthy to eat... :sick:

OK my friends, I bow with humility. But there is, then, clearly a strong need for a new revision of this genus. Because "recognising with the eyes", as we plant lovers do, is not a scientific way to segregate taxa (I prefer taxa rather than species in that case, because I'm not even sure we are talking about distinct species in the Rhopalostylis genus. Maybe yes, maybe not). I can identify with no doubt some species. But the "keys" I use (droopy leaves, broader rachis, thorns, fiber on the trunk, etc - I am talking of palms in general, not nikaus) are not the same as the keys you would read in a monography or study by John Dransfield, Scott Zona, or whoever is qualified. So there must be ways to understand better this genus, but I was obviously wrong until now... Or keys weren't properly placed (I mean the order : 1st this, 2nd that, 3rd it, etc). I have a question : For example, as you know many specimens which do not fit, ex: Some Auckland domain nikaus with big inflorescence (really big?), have you seen such big long inflorescences in the South Island, on North Island's east coast? In the Northland? Auckland Domain is one of the first place where exotic plants were cultivated, so I'm wondering (and it's not far from gardens where one may find old baueri etc). These palms hybridize so freely...

If they are 100% sure pure sapida, with 0% exogene ancestry, could it still be possible to use the inflorescence as a key, but for other taxa? Or is it too late in many urban, sub-urban areas and we now face a big genetic soup (like in the Canary islands with Phoenix)? Even what we consider remote and wild and pure is not : We should not forget too that Polynesians were great travellers and there's been several waves of migration. Kumaras, sugar cane, taro and many other plants prove that they introduced a lot of stuff. Even in the most remote places, like North Cape Integral Reserve, you find Cordyline obtecta, Hibiscus tiliaceus, etc. There are even some Cordyline terminalis on the site of ancient settlements. I remember some botanist wondered if Corynocarpus were native or imported from the Kermadecs and so on...

Edited by Sebastian Bano

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stygiana

Well, OK, all this is a bit "limit" (in fact, I'd like to avoid to eat all the next hundred of glossy pages with photos and ink which are on my desk, so I try to find an escape!!!).

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Gary

I start to regret buying varnished pens, they taste bad and they are surely not very healthy to eat... :sick:

OK my friends, I bow with humility. But there is, then, clearly a strong need for a new revision of this genus. Because "recognising with the eyes", as we plant lovers do, is not a scientific way to segregate taxa (I prefer taxa rather than species in that case, because I'm not even sure we are talking about distinct species in the Rhopalostylis genus. Maybe yes, maybe not). I can identify with no doubt some species. But the "keys" I use (droopy leaves, broader rachis, thorns, fiber on the trunk, etc - I am talking of palms in general, not nikaus) are not the same as the keys you would read in a monography or study by John Dransfield, Scott Zona, or whoever is qualified. So there must be ways to understand better this genus, but I was obviously wrong until now... Or keys weren't properly placed (I mean the order : 1st this, 2nd that, 3rd it, etc). I have a question : For example, as you know many specimens which do not fit, ex: Some Auckland domain nikaus with big inflorescence (really big?), have you seen such big long inflorescences in the South Island, on North Island's east coast? In the Northland? Auckland Domain is one of the first place where exotic plants were cultivated, so I'm wondering (and it's not far from gardens where one may find old baueri etc). These palms hybridize so freely...

If they are 100% sure pure sapida, with 0% exogene ancestry, could it still be possible to use the inflorescence as a key, but for other taxa? Or is it too late in many urban, sub-urban areas and we now face a big genetic soup (like in the Canary islands with Phoenix)? Even what we consider remote and wild and pure is not : We should not forget too that Polynesians were great travellers and there's been several waves of migration. Kumaras, sugar cane, taro and many other plants prove that they introduced a lot of stuff. Even in the most remote places, like North Cape Integral Reserve, you find Cordyline obtecta, Hibiscus tiliaceus, etc. There are even some Cordyline terminalis on the site of ancient settlements. I remember some botanist wondered if Corynocarpus were native or imported from the Kermadecs and so on...

Many palms you talk about are not really old in years really like the Duck Pond planting was done by Ducan and Davies in the 1960s.Cultivated palms can grow faster and bigger but of coarse good genes is also important.There are very few baueri in Auckland domain and infact only one in the bush that has set seed for more than 2years.There are another 3 in a road opposite Auckland Hospital that is a 5-10min walk away.Of these 3 only one is an old palm so I think the original stand in question at the Duck Pond is a pure strain.As for polynesians introducing stuff here I can easily find that out as my neighbour lectures in the subject at Auckland university.

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stygiana

Malcom : Thanks for the prophylls' photo. You got me!

As I said Gary, it was probably more an attempt to escape my own punishment. And I'd like to end up on my feet, like cats do, but in reality I'm slipping on a rainy wet nikau crown-shaft, and a NZ native bush-nettle is waiting below...

So I bow for real now : None of the keys I knew seem to fit.

Help!!!

I believe you, Gary, these nikaus are probably from an original strain. Besides, I don't see why Maoris would have brought nikaus from the Kermadecs, while there are plenty on the main islands. Again, I tried several way out but... No, no way. :violin:

Concerning historical records (your friend's work), my feelings are mixed. I love history, especially when it comes to the dispearsal of knowledge, technology, domesticated plants and animals. But so many things escaped historians' studies until recently, even in regions so largely documented as western Europe. So a place like Aotearoa/NZ is quite a difficult subject, I guess. Sure, there were no writings from the Maoris, etc. But it must be an exciting and fabulous work to do!

Even in Europe, with lots of written work dating back from well before Christ (with the Phenicians, Phoceans, etc), many things were only made clear recently. A good example comes with walnuts : All the written documents seem to show a gradual introduction from the East to the West, arriving in France and far western Europe just after Christ. Nevertheless, some walnuts were discovered in a burial-place which was centuries older than any record... If this archaeological discovery had not been made (it was just "accidentally" found, where a building was destroyed to give place to another) all major specialist would have kept on saying walnuts only came later... History is so puzzling too. But we are going far away from the original subject.

This purple Rhopalostylis drives me crazy... Not only I don't know what it is, but I feel like I can't recognize any nikau now.

However... is there any chance... that some austral palm lover... who's so lucky (and nice, and generous) to have some seeds of it... would adopt a nice and friendly coleoptera in exchange?

Edited by Sebastian Bano

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malcthomas

Sebastian...

No need to beat yourself up on this one...you are right in my opinion about inflorescence size (sapida and baueri), its just not a conclusive test to determine a photographic identification of one tree given genetic and environmental variations.

If you refer back to the original pics on this thread of Bobs palm, you will see that the prophyll is beginning to split. If the leaf had not been deliberately pulled away much earlier, I would say that the leaf would have naturally dropped within a short number of hours of the photo being taken. I have noticed deeper purple hues on freshly exposed leaf sheaves on my own cheesemanii.

Removing seed from Raoul Island is not permitted by the Department of Conversation and a permit is required to land there. My seed came off the island, surreptitiously by a DOC Officer and there is no possibility that they have hybridised. There are a number of very old trees at the Auckland University and Alberon attributed to Cheeseman's Kermadec Islands expedition and I would say that the majority of the cheesemanii seed distributed around the world are from these.

I am going to try and contact someone in DOC on Raoul Island to answer this purple question...

As to identification keys these appear in palm books and once in print become gospel. In a well known book by a respected author he states that R.sapida do not "flower until about 30 years of age"....and what follows from that is some one then believes they don't have sapida because theirs all started flowering at 13 years...

kind regards...

Malcolm

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Gary

Malcom : Thanks for the prophylls' photo. You got me!

As I said Gary, it was probably more an attempt to escape my own punishment. And I'd like to end up on my feet, like cats do, but in reality I'm slipping on a rainy wet nikau crown-shaft, and a NZ native bush-nettle is waiting below...

So I bow for real now : None of the keys I knew seem to fit.

Help!!!

I believe you, Gary, these nikaus are probably from an original strain. Besides, I don't see why Maoris would have brought nikaus from the Kermadecs, while there are plenty on the main islands. Again, I tried several way out but... No, no way. :violin:

Concerning historical records (your friend's work), my feelings are mixed. I love history, especially when it comes to the dispearsal of knowledge, technology, domesticated plants and animals. But so many things escaped historians' studies until recently, even in regions so largely documented as western Europe. So a place like Aotearoa/NZ is quite a difficult subject, I guess. Sure, there were no writings from the Maoris, etc. But it must be an exciting and fabulous work to do!

Even in Europe, with lots of written work dating back from well before Christ (with the Phenicians, Phoceans, etc), many things were only made clear recently. A good example comes with walnuts : All the written documents seem to show a gradual introduction from the East to the West, arriving in France and far western Europe just after Christ. Nevertheless, some walnuts were discovered in a burial-place which was centuries older than any record... If this archaeological discovery had not been made (it was just "accidentally" found, where a building was destroyed to give place to another) all major specialist would have kept on saying walnuts only came later... History is so puzzling too. But we are going far away from the original subject.

This purple Rhopalostylis drives me crazy... Not only I don't know what it is, but I feel like I can't recognize any nikau now.

However... is there any chance... that some austral palm lover... who's so lucky (and nice, and generous) to have some seeds of it... would adopt a nice and friendly coleoptera in exchange?

This purple palm seed was marketed as little barrier sapida.All i can see in it it baueri.I overlook nikau often as there are so many in my area.In my road which is no exit there are 17houses,1 beach and one council reserve.There wouldbe some 200nikaus down my road.Attached are pic of some nikau in my backyard and i have only a kiwi quarter acre.

post-109-037654200 1300747494_thumb.jpg

post-109-014035300 1300747800_thumb.jpg

post-109-086117600 1300748156_thumb.jpg

post-109-080135100 1300748527_thumb.jpg

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Jonathan

It would be nice to see a complete toxonomic revision by Dowe or someone similar...

My money is on Norfolk Island baueri at the moment...mainly because no-one seems to be able to describe the seedlings of that variety, and to me the seedling development has been a very strange journey with this palm. My oldest seedling of this variety now strongly resembles my baueri's, ie it holds quite large (200mm long), entire juvenile leaves - unlike all my North Island sapidas which went pinnate very early on. The colour is generally more limey green than the deep glossy green of sapida too. This is the reverse of how it looked when it germiated - at first it was deep green and strongly recurved and looked nothing like my other baueri's (from 3 different seed lots). Obviously this could all be a cultivation issue, rather than genetic.

It seems that the adult plant could plausibly be baueri of some sort - Malcoms photo's show plenty of purple colour to my eye at least.

Cheers,

Jonathan

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Jonathan

That should read bifid of course, not entire.

Cheers,

Jonathan

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malcthomas

Jonathan...

I used to have a theory that was repeatedly debated with Gary that potted palms being sold in NZ Nurseries as cheesemanii were baueri baueri, based on the colour of the leaf petioles. I could never recall my confirmed cheesemanii as having deep brown petioles at that age. The nursery ones (labeled Kermadecs) were all quite dark brown. I got some Norfolks from a commercial grower but was never satisfied that these were true baueri baueri. They had the same deep brown petioles as the ones being sold as cheesemanii.

John LOK had been to Norfolk and had collected his own seed there. He told me that his Norfolk plants had dark brown petioles which seemed to reinforce my theory about cheesemanii having green. The proof was going to be when I started getting plants from my own seed. Gary was adamant that the Auckland Kermadecs, where most of the seed was being collected had a direct link back to Cheeseman and I had no reason to doubt that.

The two photos are plants from seed off my own cheesemani. The seedling is a volunteer that has managed to escape the weed whacker.

Over the years I have posted a lot of cheesemanii seed off to people on this Board and I would be interested to hear what your plant petiole colour is.

kind regards...

Malcolm

post-249-063048100 1300759088_thumb.jpg

post-249-019019800 1300759947_thumb.jpg

Edited by malcthomas

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neoflora

I am the original grower of this palm.I sold it to the owner. Seed came to me from Inge Hoffman. She was a seed supplier for the Palm society for many years. Seed was sold to me as R. chessmanii. Seem to fit the description at the time.I remember the petiole being a dark burgundy color.Hope this helps!

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malcthomas

I am the original grower of this palm.I sold it to the owner. Seed came to me from Inge Hoffman. She was a seed supplier for the Palm society for many years. Seed was sold to me as R. chessmanii. Seem to fit the description at the time.I remember the petiole being a dark burgundy color.Hope this helps!

It certainly does...Many thanks and kind regards

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Gary

I am the original grower of this palm.I sold it to the owner. Seed came to me from Inge Hoffman. She was a seed supplier for the Palm society for many years. Seed was sold to me as R. chessmanii. Seem to fit the description at the time.I remember the petiole being a dark burgundy color.Hope this helps!

It certainly does...Many thanks and kind regards

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Gary

I am the original grower of this palm.I sold it to the owner. Seed came to me from Inge Hoffman. She was a seed supplier for the Palm society for many years. Seed was sold to me as R. chessmanii. Seem to fit the description at the time.I remember the petiole being a dark burgundy color.Hope this helps!

It certainly does...Many thanks and kind regards

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Gary

I am the original grower of this palm.I sold it to the owner. Seed came to me from Inge Hoffman. She was a seed supplier for the Palm society for many years. Seed was sold to me as R. chessmanii. Seem to fit the description at the time.I remember the petiole being a dark burgundy color.Hope this helps!

It certainly does...Many thanks and kind regards

i believe there is so little to no difference in the baueri forms in appearance or seed.I have grown both and the norfolk form is sickly compared to kermadec.I also had John Lok norfolk that he collect seed of in 1995 but they died and did not have the vigor of other.The local commercial seedlings i do not believe are true form.There are norfolk growing here and Bryan Laughland placed a photo of a local one on yahoogroup sometime back.Bryan knows far more about nikau than i do and he also would have been the supplier of Inga seed.

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Gary

attached Bryans pic of baueri var baueri growing in Auckland

post-109-000721900 1300768369_thumb.jpg

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Bennz

I am the original grower of this palm.I sold it to the owner. Seed came to me from Inge Hoffman. She was a seed supplier for the Palm society for many years. Seed was sold to me as R. chessmanii. Seem to fit the description at the time.I remember the petiole being a dark burgundy color.Hope this helps!

Hi Neoflora,

Is there any possibility of confusion here? This does not line up at all with the near-mythical story of the origin of this palm, which had us NZers plotting an invasion of Little Barrier Island looking for remnant populations.

Cheers,

Ben

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nomolos

I am the original grower of this palm.I sold it to the owner. Seed came to me from Inge Hoffman. She was a seed supplier for the Palm society for many years. Seed was sold to me as R. chessmanii. Seem to fit the description at the time.I remember the petiole being a dark burgundy color.Hope this helps!

Hi Neoflora,

Is there any possibility of confusion here? This does not line up at all with the near-mythical story of the origin of this palm, which had us NZers plotting an invasion of Little Barrier Island looking for remnant populations.

Cheers,

Ben

Hi Ben

Isn't Neoflora talking about the palms being sold in NZ not the one in Colin's first pic? The petioles in Colins pic are white.

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Gary

I am the original grower of this palm.I sold it to the owner. Seed came to me from Inge Hoffman. She was a seed supplier for the Palm society for many years. Seed was sold to me as R. chessmanii. Seem to fit the description at the time.I remember the petiole being a dark burgundy color.Hope this helps!

Hi Neoflora,

Is there any possibility of confusion here? This does not line up at all with the near-mythical story of the origin of this palm, which had us NZers plotting an invasion of Little Barrier Island looking for remnant populations.

Cheers,

Ben

At a guess if the seed came from Inge via Bryan which is extremely likely then the seed would have come from what was

Sir Earl Richardson place in Orakei where there are some 20 seed producing cheesemani.Bryan stopped collecting there mid90s and he and myself are the only ones who collect from there.There are so quite purple crownshaft palms there but usually in the younger palms and the most colour when in flower stage.Alot of seed I supplied Tobias is from there.

btw-Ben,i supplied you bangalow seed years ago from there

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malcthomas

I am the original grower of this palm.I sold it to the owner. Seed came to me from Inge Hoffman. She was a seed supplier for the Palm society for many years. Seed was sold to me as R. chessmanii. Seem to fit the description at the time.I remember the petiole being a dark burgundy color.Hope this helps!

Hi Neoflora,

Is there any possibility of confusion here? This does not line up at all with the near-mythical story of the origin of this palm, which had us NZers plotting an invasion of Little Barrier Island looking for remnant populations.

Cheers,

Ben

Hi Ben

Isn't Neoflora talking about the palms being sold in NZ not the one in Colin's first pic? The petioles in Colins pic are white.

Nomolos, hi...

Neoflora is talking about the purple R.baueri as photographed by Colin and Troy.

Bob gave the hint when he wrote, "Maybe you Kiwis should do a midnight dash on your boat and dust off this mystery and prove to the world that I, Pogobob am full of purple poop!" Its taken this long to show that he is.

Alberto's April 1st mystery palm of a few years ago still takes some beating though.

cheers..

Malcolm

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pogobob

:o:blush::floor:

I am the original grower of this palm.I sold it to the owner. Seed came to me from Inge Hoffman. She was a seed supplier for the Palm society for many years. Seed was sold to me as R. chessmanii. Seem to fit the description at the time.I remember the petiole being a dark burgundy color.Hope this helps!

Hi Neoflora,

Is there any possibility of confusion here? This does not line up at all with the near-mythical story of the origin of this palm, which had us NZers plotting an invasion of Little Barrier Island looking for remnant populations.

Cheers,

Ben

Hi Ben

Isn't Neoflora talking about the palms being sold in NZ not the one in Colin's first pic? The petioles in Colins pic are white.

Nomolos, hi...

Neoflora is talking about the purple R.baueri as photographed by Colin and Troy.

Bob gave the hint when he wrote, "Maybe you Kiwis should do a midnight dash on your boat and dust off this mystery and prove to the world that I, Pogobob am full of purple poop!" Its taken this long to show that he is.

Alberto's April 1st mystery palm of a few years ago still takes some beating though.

cheers..

Malcolm

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malcthomas

post-249-035174600 1300912084_thumb.jpg

Found this photo taken some 5 years ago which shows some purple colouration to the leaf sheath, so like Gary have been ho hum about it.

Who ever is writing the next palm book could you please make reference to this colouration when describing the Kermadec Nikau...

cheers..

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HASNZ38S

A nice pic of one growing in habitat near Hamilton NZ

image.jpg

Edited by HASNZ38S
  • Upvote 1

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john_tas

Interesting climate extreme data for NZ, noting that Hamilton got down to -9.9 on 2009, thats pretty low, r.sapida apparently grows well in the Hamilton area which seems hard to believe looking at that number? Even in a local micro climate which may not have gone that low. Not doubting the photo just maybe the numbers.

Looks like a c.medullaris in the background also?

https://www.niwa.co.nz/sites/default/files/import/attachments/summary.xls

 

 

Edited by john_tas

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HASNZ38S
On 17 July 2016 8:51:51 pm, john_tas said:

Interesting climate extreme data for NZ, noting that Hamilton got down to -9.9 on 2009, thats pretty low, r.sapida apparently grows well in the Hamilton area which seems hard to believe looking at that number? Even in a local micro climate which may not have gone that low. Not doubting the photo just maybe the numbers.

Looks like a c.medullaris in the background also?

https://www.niwa.co.nz/sites/default/files/import/attachments/summary.xls

 

 

I don't think it was 2009 but I might be wrong. I have lived in Hamilton since 1998 and can't remember it getting below -7 C in that time period (I think the -9.9C was in the 70s or 80s). Irrespective, the temperatures get very low in comparison to the coast. For instance the temperature tonight is set to reach 0 C whilst in auckland it will be 10C even though the daytime temp is set to be almost identicle.

there is quite a range of palms here, our gardens are internationally recognised as some of the best in the world. They have a number of themed gardens, one of which is the subtropical garden. I suspect ect the only thing keeping all the palms from burning away in the frosts is the duration of freeze??? I mean although it gets very cold here it is for an extremely short duration unlike our continental alternatives

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HASNZ38S

Sorry just to clarify my above reply:

The picture was taken in a reserve under the rainforest canopy where frost is impossible. The only palms present will be the native sapida which grow in abundance and relatively quickly when fighting for light under the dense canopy. Hence easily the best outcomes for sapida if growing at home is dense shade which forces the palm to grow faster with noticeably larger leaf scar intervals and wide open growth habit. Once in the light it grows with a more typical shaving brush form. 

I don't think the -9.9C was in 2009 but I might be wrong. I have lived in Hamilton since 1998 and can't remember it getting below -7 C in that time period (I think the -9.9C was in the 70s or 80s). Every winter we see nights of -5 C, although this year has been unseasonably warm with only a few frosts and one night where it got to almost -4C. Irrespective, the temperature here get very very low in comparison to the coast due to the low wind speeds and lack of large thermal mass to regulate the temperature (in summer it also means very hot humid days- always a degree or two more than auckland). For instance the temperature tonight is set to reach 0 C whilst in auckland (only 1hr North) it will be 10C even though the daytime temp is set to be almost identicle. 
 
there is quite a range of palms grown here, I personally have quite a number including dypsis baronii and bangalows etc that are equal to or slightly more hardy than the nikaus. The bangalow at my family's place is easily 20 years old and almost 10m in height and will have easily been through freezes well below -5 C. I'm forever pulling out seedlings and am currently growing around 100 bangalow palms - it is only a matter of time before they are banned for propagation. Our local gardens are internationally recognised as some of the best in the world. They have a number of themed gardens, one of which is the subtropical garden and is well worth a look with a variety of cold tolerant Palm species. I suspect the only thing keeping all the palms from burning away in the frosts here is the duration of freeze??? I mean although it gets very cold here it is for an extremely short duration unlike our continental alternatives.

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Tyrone

Would love to get hold of some purple Rhopie seeds again. Give em another go with appropriate rat protection.

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Mohsen
4 hours ago, HASNZ38S said:

Sorry just to clarify my above reply:

The picture was taken in a reserve under the rainforest canopy where frost is impossible. The only palms present will be the native sapida which grow in abundance and relatively quickly when fighting for light under the dense canopy. Hence easily the best outcomes for sapida if growing at home is dense shade which forces the palm to grow faster with noticeably larger leaf scar intervals and wide open growth habit. Once in the light it grows with a more typical shaving brush form. 

I don't think the -9.9C was in 2009 but I might be wrong. I have lived in Hamilton since 1998 and can't remember it getting below -7 C in that time period (I think the -9.9C was in the 70s or 80s). Every winter we see nights of -5 C, although this year has been unseasonably warm with only a few frosts and one night where it got to almost -4C. Irrespective, the temperature here get very very low in comparison to the coast due to the low wind speeds and lack of large thermal mass to regulate the temperature (in summer it also means very hot humid days- always a degree or two more than auckland). For instance the temperature tonight is set to reach 0 C whilst in auckland (only 1hr North) it will be 10C even though the daytime temp is set to be almost identicle. 
 
there is quite a range of palms grown here, I personally have quite a number including dypsis baronii and bangalows etc that are equal to or slightly more hardy than the nikaus. The bangalow at my family's place is easily 20 years old and almost 10m in height and will have easily been through freezes well below -5 C. I'm forever pulling out seedlings and am currently growing around 100 bangalow palms - it is only a matter of time before they are banned for propagation. Our local gardens are internationally recognised as some of the best in the world. They have a number of themed gardens, one of which is the subtropical garden and is well worth a look with a variety of cold tolerant Palm species. I suspect the only thing keeping all the palms from burning away in the frosts here is the duration of freeze??? I mean although it gets very cold here it is for an extremely short duration unlike our continental alternatives.

That's all I hope I have here...although we got 0 or even -1 or -2 few times in winter it is only for 1-2 hours near 7:00 AM and then it get warmer quickly ...

anothet good thing here is that when there is frost the sky is clear so it will be a sunny day and temp get around 20 in afternoon...if it is Cloudy or rainy then temp is never get below 5 even if the max during the day also would be not more then 14-25...I guess Hamilton should be the same too...

That might be why so far my Foxtail is happy and unharmed ...

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