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Rhopalostylis sapida

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Gary

It will not be the hybrid from the park as it was not producing seed back then.The only thing different about that palm from typical baueri var cheesemannii is the bright purple crownshaft which is brighter than any i have seen here but have seen duller purple/brown on young ones about 1-2m of trunk.If you look at Boyers book palms and cycads beyond the topics u will see a cheesemanii with faded looking colur on crownshaft and a pic of a little barrier in habitat taken in 1991 i take.As for Toby and my seeds it is likely your 3batches came off the same palms as he only gets from me 2times a year and 5-10000seed of these per time.I could collect 100000 if needed but demand is small.I have 1500sprouted seed sitting here now in plasticbags ready for communal bags unless someone buys them and they are all off the same stand of palms.These are probably same batch you have.A good bunch of seed is about 5000seed per bract

All seeds from RPS are Pitt Island as are pretty much all seed available from the chatham group of islands.Chatham island is the main island of the group and has very few palms left there-Pitt is just another island in the group

LBI-Forgot to mention that right hand side pot is cheesemannii in pic 16

Ah, that changes things a bit then!

If the right hand pot in 16 is cheesemanii, then I'm confused again, because they looked most similar to my possible LBI.

Those look nothing like my cheesemanii seedlings...I'm guessing that means the left hand pot is LBI, which looks totally disimilar to mine again.

Back to square one.

Might just have to agree with Colin - its a nice palm, whatever it is.

Cheers,

Jonathan

If you look at archives at rarepalmseeds you will see pic of what one expects a little barrier nikau to be like and nothing in common with purple form.none of pic there are anything to do with me.

Gary,

after looking at every picture of baueri (both types), the LBI photos on Toby's site, photos of the Chathams palms and the description of Norfolk baueri in Dowe - I've come to the following conclussion....it can only be Kermadec baueri or a hybrid.

Norfolk baueri has green petioles (Dowe) as does LBI, this palm clearly has grey or at least not green petioles. The seed shape is more consistant with baueri of some form, and the seelings look like some of your Kermadec seedlings (right hand pot photo 16). The thing that has me completely stuffed is that the seedlings look nothing at all like my Kermadec seedlings, which are from Toby and therefore as you said certified and have appeared consistant over three batches.

I still believe that it would be feasible for Bobs friend to go ashore at LBI and collect some seeds, but I'm now wondering if he may have gone elsewhere as well and collected other seed, then got them confused in transit - an easy mistake to make. I'd be keen to know a bit more history about this guy's trip, whether he sailed to the Kermadec Islands as well - or even inadvertently collected hybrid seed from a park in Auckland as well. Who knows.

Love a good mystery - but my heads done in now.

Cheers,

Jonathan

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Jonathan

Just checked that photo in Boyer, can definately make out a slight purple hue.

The LBI palm is a monster - or the person is a dwarf.

The thot plickens...

Cheers,

Jonathan

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pogobob

Just checked that photo in Boyer, can definately make out a slight purple hue.

The LBI palm is a monster - or the person is a dwarf.

The thot plickens...

Cheers,

Jonathan

Get some sleep Jonathan, count purple sheep :D

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Jonathan

Just checked that photo in Boyer, can definately make out a slight purple hue.

The LBI palm is a monster - or the person is a dwarf.

The thot plickens...

Cheers,

Jonathan

Get some sleep Jonathan, count purple sheep :D

:D:rolleyes::blink:

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malcthomas

What a strikingly beautiful Rhopy! They're beautiful palms when they have green crown shafts but this one is wild. The inside of the sheath shows some interesting coloring as well. Do Rhopalostylis always drop an old leaf while it's still so green?

Jim...

They fall off still green, albeit with a few brown leaflets, to allow the flower spathe that has been developing underneath it to open. It is this developing spathe that gives the palm its bloated look. If the leaf sheath doesn't fall clean away such as in dense vegetation, pollenation won't occur. It pays to keep an eye on this it you are wanting to get seed..Don't pull the leaf away before its ready as you will pull off or tear any immature spathe.

Gary..right behind you on this one.

cheers...

Malcolm

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Caryota_gigas

That would be great Garry - thanks.

I was just re-reading the original thread on this plant Here where Pogobob describes how the seed came to be in California....it seems a reasonable enough explanation to me, and I really cant see why anyone would even bother to make it all up. If I was cruising past that island it would be very tempting to stop in for a look!

Cheers,

Jonathan

Sounds like a reasonable explanation, except that the geography is "confused" (ok, I mean wrong).

Yes he wrote "Bay of Isles" which is not where LBI is (or even a place really, its Bay of Islands and is further North) but a tourist could easily stuff that up. My biggest problem is the altitude. When on Little Barrier I saw very little Nikau much above sea level. Seems strange they would be growing another 600-700 metres above that, and not inbetween? Maybe we need to do another PACSONZ trip.

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pogobob

That would be great Garry - thanks.

I was just re-reading the original thread on this plant Here where Pogobob describes how the seed came to be in California....it seems a reasonable enough explanation to me, and I really cant see why anyone would even bother to make it all up. If I was cruising past that island it would be very tempting to stop in for a look!

Cheers,

Jonathan

Sounds like a reasonable explanation, except that the geography is "confused" (ok, I mean wrong).

Yes he wrote "Bay of Isles" which is not where LBI is (or even a place really, its Bay of Islands and is further North) but a tourist could easily stuff that up. My biggest problem is the altitude. When on Little Barrier I saw very little Nikau much above sea level. Seems strange they would be growing another 600-700 metres above that, and not inbetween? Maybe we need to do another PACSONZ trip.

Maybe you Kiwis should do a midnight dash on your boat and dust off this mystery and prove to the world that I, Pogobob am full of purple poop! :mrlooney:

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Jonathan

That would be great Garry - thanks.

I was just re-reading the original thread on this plant Here where Pogobob describes how the seed came to be in California....it seems a reasonable enough explanation to me, and I really cant see why anyone would even bother to make it all up. If I was cruising past that island it would be very tempting to stop in for a look!

Cheers,

Jonathan

Sounds like a reasonable explanation, except that the geography is "confused" (ok, I mean wrong).

Yes he wrote "Bay of Isles" which is not where LBI is (or even a place really, its Bay of Islands and is further North) but a tourist could easily stuff that up. My biggest problem is the altitude. When on Little Barrier I saw very little Nikau much above sea level. Seems strange they would be growing another 600-700 metres above that, and not inbetween? Maybe we need to do another PACSONZ trip.

Absolutely you should go back Michael....there's no question about it. You should go and camp there for a week.

I just re-read your article about your trip to Little Barrier on the PACSONZ site - it seems you were only allowed to stay there for a few hours. Obviously its a pretty remote and difficult place to get to, but could you really argue that its been thoroughly investigated?

As to broken distribution - have a look at the distribution of Livistona in Australia - for that matter look at Rhopalostylis throughout the SW Pacific - could it be more fragmented? I would argue that a fragmented distribution based on altitude difference is more likely to produce two distinct forms, due to genetic isolation, than a continuous range from sea level to summit.

Could the purple c/s palm be a relict from an earlier colonization by R. baueri, and the bigger LBI palms more recent additions? I dont know anything about the geology of the area, but is it possible that uplift may have slowly isolated the palms over several millennia? I think this theory has been bandied around (by me at least!) for the isolated distribution of Parajubaea in the Andes.

I guess one of the reasons I'm banging on about this is that there is a real possibility that it could be something different. It occurs to me that only 10 or 15 years ago we thought there were only 2 species of Archontophoenix...now we know that there are at least 6, including 3 from the relatively small area of the Atherton Tablelands.

No one is doubting that you Kiwi's know more about Nikau than anyone else, but it would be pretty cool if this did turn out to be a new form - even if its just another baueri - and you are in the best position to find out.

Cheers,

Jonathan

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Gary

That would be great Garry - thanks.

I was just re-reading the original thread on this plant Here where Pogobob describes how the seed came to be in California....it seems a reasonable enough explanation to me, and I really cant see why anyone would even bother to make it all up. If I was cruising past that island it would be very tempting to stop in for a look!

Cheers,

Jonathan

Sounds like a reasonable explanation, except that the geography is "confused" (ok, I mean wrong).

Yes he wrote "Bay of Isles" which is not where LBI is (or even a place really, its Bay of Islands and is further North) but a tourist could easily stuff that up. My biggest problem is the altitude. When on Little Barrier I saw very little Nikau much above sea level. Seems strange they would be growing another 600-700 metres above that, and not inbetween? Maybe we need to do another PACSONZ trip.

Maybe you Kiwis should do a midnight dash on your boat and dust off this mystery and prove to the world that I, Pogobob am full of purple poop! :mrlooney:

The doubt isnt in the colour if it was said to be a baueri form rather that it is a sapida orginally from Little Barrier

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pogobob

Yes, the possibilities are endless as to what subspecie we are dealing with here. The palm has only been seeding for about 5yrs now and I really didn't notice the intense purple coloration until recently. Another thing I have observed now is that it colors up much more in the summer and fall when it goes into flowering. As far as seedlings, there is no color. This palm has always had a different form, more compact than any of my own rhopalostylis palms of which I have different forms of Sapidas, Baueri, and Cheesmani. I don't see any similarity to any of these, especially Cheesmani which can be a large palm virtually identical to Baueri. If there are indeed 100yr old Hedycepe on some of these islands as stated in this thread, obviously introduced, than this could be introduced also. But why in such a remote location? There is also the possibility that the native wood pigeons spread the seeds as they are wide ranging. I believe this palm to be an isolate remnant much the same as we see small populations of some palms in New Caledonia and Madagascar, some times with only a handfull of survivers. It seems crazy that such well researched regions can still hold a surprizes!

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pogobob

Saw it in person last week and whatever reason for it being purple i don't know but it sure is beautiful !

post-1252-066736600 1284412223_thumb.jpg

yes it is a very nice palm but it is not sapida from little barrier and am pretty sure it is a baueri var cheesemannii with a better than average colour on crownshaft.Even seedling pics i have seen here tell me they are baueri and not sapida looking at all

Gary, look at the photos, the leaflets go right down to the crownshft, no petiole as in Sapida. All Baueriis have longer petioles. This is a compact tree

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malcthomas

Gary, look at the photos, the leaflets go right down to the crownshft, no petiole as in Sapida. All Baueriis have longer petioles. This is a compact tree

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Caryota_gigas

Bob,

Certainly younger bauerii have long petioles and this is a distinguishing feature between them and sapida, but as they mature the leaflets go right to the base. Petiole colour is not an identifying feature in older palms either.

I have never personally seen a main land sapida with white/cream flowers nor have I seen any of my many pure cheesemanii with mauve flowers. I do have a Chatham Island with cream flowers. In my opinion the purple nikau is bauerii.

There are sapida with white/cream flowers in the Waitakere Ranges.

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malcthomas

Michael..

I saw the pic of that on the local board and when I posed some questions about it,(from memory) I did not get a reply.

So we have photographic proof of one white flowered sapida out of the millions of mauve flowered sapida, and we have photographic evidence of one purple crown shafted baureii out of the millions on non purple baureii!

What are the colour of the flowers of the Chattham's growing in AK?

cheers...Malcolm

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Caryota_gigas

Well there is a lot more than 1, but I am not going to photograph them all to prove they exsist, (though I probably have quite a few white/cream nikau pics) but there are plenty in certain areas. The Chatham Island sapidas at Landsendt are white/cream when they flower, and yes I have seen more than one and have photos of more than 1 doing so. I have even sent them to John Dowe for analysis.

It is common knowledge among many, of white/cream flowering sapida... I just don't understand why so many people have a problem with believing it...

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Gary

Here is pic taken a couple of days back of cheesemanii in a well known inner city Auckland garden-palms are in front of house and canbe seen from road.Leaflet are almost to end of petiole as well.There is a group of several cheesemani there and i get all the seed off these as well

Saw it in person last week and whatever reason for it being purple i don't know but it sure is beautiful !

post-1252-066736600 1284412223_thumb.jpg

yes it is a very nice palm but it is not sapida from little barrier and am pretty sure it is a baueri var cheesemannii with a better than average colour on crownshaft.Even seedling pics i have seen here tell me they are baueri and not sapida looking at all

Gary, look at the photos, the leaflets go right down to the crownshft, no petiole as in Sapida. All Baueriis have longer petioles. This is a compact tree

post-109-003021900 1284587919_thumb.jpg

post-109-005710300 1284588238_thumb.jpg

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malcthomas

Michael..

I have never seen white flowered sapida amongst East Coast populations..I have very little experience with sapida's up your way except for a trip around the Waitakere's with Gary to photograph various odd ball Niakau's known to him. Did not see any white flowers on that occasssion. If you say they are common there, then I accept that. I was careful to say that I had not personally seen them...

kind regards..

Malcolm

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malcthomas

I took these pics this morning...all are of different Kermadec Island Nikau growing on my property.

cheers...

Malcolm

post-249-054273000 1300394398_thumb.jpg

post-249-011297100 1300394434_thumb.jpg

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post-249-077329000 1300394479_thumb.jpg

post-249-096772000 1300394517_thumb.jpg

post-249-003952900 1300394555_thumb.jpg

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Tyrone

All my purple seeds got eaten by rats. Every single one. They also ate some sapida seed in a pot next to it, but didn't clean them out totally like the purple seeds. So all I can say is that purple Nikau seeds are more tasty to rats than normal seed. :(

Tyrone

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Tyrone

I took these pics this morning...all are of different Kermadec Island Nikau growing on my property.

cheers...

Malcolm

They're beautiful Rhopies.wub.gif

Best regards

Tyrone

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newcal

First shot seed of purple nikau appeared this week....yey!. Tyrone i'm using those seedling trays from Bunnings with the ventilation covers(5 dollars and rat proof).Maybe wise to use these? Just a thought!....cheers Mike Green(Newcal)

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Jonathan

I put in several 100 of these seeds late last year and have had a total of zero germination so far. This is even worse than the very poor germination rate I had last time (2 from about 200 seeds). I wont give up on them yet though, as last time I got a straggler after about a year. This is in complete contrast to all the other Rhopies I've germinated, which have been up thick and fast within two months...might just be doing something wrong with them.

Tyrone - I got attacked by rats last winter, and out of all the palms in my greenhouse/shadehouse they only ate Nikaus with seed still attached - they seem to love them...little buggers.

Cheers,

Jonathan

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Tyrone

Mike, that's a good idea. I used Talon in the end. I don't like the smell of rotting corpses but when it's a rat I don't care.

Jonathan, they always take the good ones. It's like they read this forum and get educated before they go on a killing spree. I had one time when they went through the Dictyocaryum's, then they went mental for Pritchardia remota. I have none left of Pritchardia remota. They seem to know. unsure.gif

Best regards

Tyrone

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Tassie_Troy1971

I put in several 100 of these seeds late last year and have had a total of zero germination so far. This is even worse than the very poor germination rate I had last time (2 from about 200 seeds). I wont give up on them yet though, as last time I got a straggler after about a year. This is in complete contrast to all the other Rhopies I've germinated, which have been up thick and fast within two months...might just be doing something wrong with them.

Tyrone - I got attacked by rats last winter, and out of all the palms in my greenhouse/shadehouse they only ate Nikaus with seed still attached - they seem to love them...little buggers.

Cheers,

Jonathan

They will come up next spring my purple ones took 9months last time .

Have some more special sapida seed from Uncle Pogobob that arrived today for you ! :drool: not the purple one though.

The purple ones need to be in a warm room in sealed bag 17-24c

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MattyB

I've got a whole bucket load of them, thanks to Pogo, Troy, and Colin, and not a single one has germinated yet. I'm not worried though. I've found Rhopalostylis to be slow, but reliable germinators. I just bury them deep in a community pot and forget about them. Usually about 6-12 months later I start seeing some germination.

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Bennz

- I got attacked by rats last winter, and out of all the palms in my greenhouse/shadehouse they only ate Nikaus with seed still attached - they seem to love them...little buggers.

Cheers,

Jonathan

If you want to save nikaus, put some Ceroxylons nearby. The rats walked over thousands of germinating nikau to destroy my 1000 Ceroxylon seedlings in my NIGHT OF INFAMY a few years ago.

When are you sending me some more purple nikau seeds Jonathan? :winkie:

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Bennz

I took these pics this morning...all are of different Kermadec Island Nikau growing on my property.

cheers...

Malcolm

No doubt in my mind, if I was limited to just one palm, it would be this one.

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Joe palma

I have not had one seed germinate for me out of the 100+ that I got from Bob several months ago.

I would have expected them to do so by now.

When Bob was at my place, he saw my cheesemanii,which displays a purple-ish crownshaft, and it made him think that it could be that.

I will take some pics.

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Gary

I took these pics this morning...all are of different Kermadec Island Nikau growing on my property.

cheers...

Malcolm

Nice looking palms you have and some purple looking crownshaft ones round Auckland at present as well.

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malcthomas

"Nice looking palms you have and some purple looking crownshaft ones round Auckland at present as well."

I cropped the pics to show the purple crown shafts so you don't get to see how ratty the rest of the trees really are...

Revived this thread just to show that a purple shafted R.baueri is not really that unique. All my Kermadecs are from habitat collected seed and some have green crown shafts and others are purple..(ie the purple ones were not specifically taken from a purple parent). From the same seed batch there are trees with very slim trunks while others are much bigger..I must admit that I don't know whether the purple ones have always been purple or whether they chop and change, depending on environmental conditions. I do wonder whether seed from a tree displaying purple colouration at the time of collection is going to guarantee a purple tree.

As for germination, I now have Kermadec seedlings popping up all over the place and the weed whacker now takes care of them...

cheers...

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Bennz

" I now have Kermadec seedlings popping up all over the place and the weed whacker now takes care of them...

cheers...

it hurts to read that :(:(

Put every ripe seed in a bag to avoid their nuisance germination value and I will happily remove them for you twice a year.

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Gary

"Nice looking palms you have and some purple looking crownshaft ones round Auckland at present as well."

I cropped the pics to show the purple crown shafts so you don't get to see how ratty the rest of the trees really are...

Revived this thread just to show that a purple shafted R.baueri is not really that unique. All my Kermadecs are from habitat collected seed and some have green crown shafts and others are purple..(ie the purple ones were not specifically taken from a purple parent). From the same seed batch there are trees with very slim trunks while others are much bigger..I must admit that I don't know whether the purple ones have always been purple or whether they chop and change, depending on environmental conditions. I do wonder whether seed from a tree displaying purple colouration at the time of collection is going to guarantee a purple tree.

As for germination, I now have Kermadec seedlings popping up all over the place and the weed whacker now takes care of them...

cheers...

at Alberon park you can see crownshaft colour from green to tan and different shades of purple and as always seen them like that didnt think it was anything special.

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stygiana

Hi everybody.

I also saw the Alberon Park nikaus on quite a few occasions, but never noticed anything close to that one. At my point of view, but I could well be wrong, there are 3 possibilities :

1) It is a mutant (there are so many examples in horticulture) and it's a fantastic one. Though it is for me the least likely of the three.

2) It is a relict form from a spot that hasn't been recorded.

I remember that I saw weird and unusual nikaus near Dargaville (almost dwarves, with arching leaves) and on Kawau island (apple green colour, broad leaflets, but not really like East Cape/North Island East Coast form, and not like South Island forms either, and not even like GB or LB islands ones too). So could there be other distinct varieties never described anywhere, or only surviving as cultivated plants (like with Madagascar's palms)? Nikaus' native range has been so extensively wiped out to create pastures, there...

3) And, I could be totally wrong, but I believe that it could be it : A cross between a Chatham (whether Pitt or main island form) and a Kermadec.

The inflorescence is quite long for a sapida, and this is crucial. The fruits also seem to show some baueri/cheesemanii parentage. But the leaves are quite typical of Chatham/Pitt forms, though not 100% (but almost).

I saw many Kermadec x sapida hybrids, and this one is not.

But wow, a Chatham x Kermadec... This could be a fabulous, marvellous, combination! Of course, like with any hybrid, if we try to cross again (if this "theory" is OK) chatham and Kermadec, we may not obtain the same result... Genes combine always a different way.

In any case, I fell in love with this unusual nikau. Thank you for these photos!

Edited by Sebastian Bano

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malcthomas

post-249-015765600 1300594174_thumb.jpgpost-249-087473500 1300591562_thumb.jpgpost-249-015014500 1300592059_thumb.jpg

Sebastian...

The first photo is a dwarf Nikau with arching leaves and fits your description of the Nikau you saw around Dargaville. It is a R.cheesemani and stands almost 1.6m high. Less than 2m behind this Nikau, in the same soil and lighting conditions, you will see another cheesemani, that is over 5m tall. The larger cheesemani has a trunk diameter of just over 230mm and the dwarf a diameter of just over 120mm. These are from the same seed batch and were planted on the same day while both at the same size.

The second photo is of another pair of cheesemani from the same seed batch, and planted at the same time, 2m apart.

The third photo is of two, (of three) H.fosteriana planted in a 2.5m triangle, on the same day, at the same size and from seed from the same parent tree. The dwarf Kentia has .4m of clear trunk while its two siblings have 1.8m.

I can also show you R.sapida from the same seed batch growing in the same conditions with similar disparity in size and appearance.

As mentioned previously, all my cheesemani were from seed collected from Raoul Island so there is no question that the 'purple' Nikau that I have are Kermadecs. Gary who has a great knowledge of Nikau in the Auckland area has also observed some of his local Kermadecs exhibiting purple hues to the crown shaft.

As implied by the above photos, I think it is too unreliable to make a determination as to a species or form from one specimen growing out of habitat, especially one in California that make our local mite infested ones look pretty crappy.

Why are some juvenile Kentias red? There has never been any suggestion that these may be a "relict form", a "mutant" or a hybrid...these also occur from seed from the same parent tree as green ones...

regards.....Malcolm

Edited by malcthomas

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pogobob

I took these pics this morning...all are of different Kermadec Island Nikau growing on my property.

cheers...

Malcolm

Nice try Malcom, those don't even come close in color to "The ONE". The price of seed just tripled! :lol: Anyone want to trade thier gold bullion?

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Gary

Hi everybody.

I also saw the Alberon Park nikaus on quite a few occasions, but never noticed anything close to that one. At my point of view, but I could well be wrong, there are 3 possibilities :

1) It is a mutant (there are so many examples in horticulture) and it's a fantastic one. Though it is for me the least likely of the three.

2) It is a relict form from a spot that hasn't been recorded.

I remember that I saw weird and unusual nikaus near Dargaville (almost dwarves, with arching leaves) and on Kawau island (apple green colour, broad leaflets, but not really like East Cape/North Island East Coast form, and not like South Island forms either, and not even like GB or LB islands ones too). So could there be other distinct varieties never described anywhere, or only surviving as cultivated plants (like with Madagascar's palms)? Nikaus' native range has been so extensively wiped out to create pastures, there...

3) And, I could be totally wrong, but I believe that it could be it : A cross between a Chatham (whether Pitt or main island form) and a Kermadec.

The inflorescence is quite long for a sapida, and this is crucial. The fruits also seem to show some baueri/cheesemanii parentage. But the leaves are quite typical of Chatham/Pitt forms, though not 100% (but almost).

I saw many Kermadec x sapida hybrids, and this one is not.

But wow, a Chatham x Kermadec... This could be a fabulous, marvellous, combination! Of course, like with any hybrid, if we try to cross again (if this "theory" is OK) chatham and Kermadec, we may not obtain the same result... Genes combine always a different way.

In any case, I fell in love with this unusual nikau. Thank you for these photos!

wasnt it pre 2000 when u were in nz??Alberon has changed much since then and the range of nikau has increased with more adult palms present now

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Tassie_Troy1971

I don't care about the doubts wanna be Nikaus or innuendos i just love it ! :drool:

post-1252-083548000 1300607027_thumb.jpg

Here i am on Sat sept 4th 2010 San Clemente .

post-1252-083548000 1300607027_thumb.jpg

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