ErikSJI 291 Report post Posted September 8, 2010 My dream is Syagrus romanzoffiana x Attalea dubia, is it possible? Update. Mark Lynn from Mule Palm Nursery is reporting outstanding results in his pollination efforts this time around on the Butia X Cocos. We should be seeing a lot more of these soon. I am heading to Hawaii at the end of the month to collect more pollen. Erik That's great news, will he be selling them? As far as I know. Most will be going to return customers at Mule Palm Nursery. Whatever is left over will be for sale. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakypalmguy 307 Report post Posted September 8, 2010 Hi Zeeth, I wouldn't say my seedlings are slow, two leaves, and some going on a third in six months from germination. Alberto, Out of curiousity, with all the hybridizing you do, what method do you use to protect from contamination? What do you think of my method? Matt That's good to know. Have you grown any XButiagrus that you would be able to compare the speed to? I have, and they are similar so far, maybe even a bit faster. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alberto 1,533 Report post Posted March 4, 2012 Maybe somebody can show an updated pic. I have to see to believe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ErikSJI 291 Report post Posted March 5, 2012 I will get you some updated photos when I get back to Florida beginning of May. One was planted in the ground in August of last year. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike Evans 517 Report post Posted March 6, 2012 Here are some pics of the one I posted awhile back. 15 gal container for scale. It still looks alot like Butia, but it is still not armed & very weeping look. I do not usually grow Butia. Should a Butia this size start to show an armed petiole? Mark, can you post some of your crosses? 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gtlevine 310 Report post Posted March 6, 2012 This one looks exactly like many butia I have seen at that size. It is a little more wispy though, but who knows what the cause may be. I would say Butia, but if Cocos was the parent then little to none of the genes came through. I have noticed with some of my hybrids that they can change drastically as they mature, so post it up in another year and lets have another look. Are you sure its not butia x allogoptera and the guy mis-labeled it? it looks more like Allogoptera is the parent. Gary Here are some pics of the one I posted awhile back. 15 gal container for scale. It still looks alot like Butia, but it is still not armed & very weeping look. I do not usually grow Butia. Should a Butia this size start to show an armed petiole? Mark, can you post some of your crosses? 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike Evans 517 Report post Posted March 6, 2012 This was pollinated by Mark Lynn. I do not believe he has ever tried crossing w/ allogoptera. He has successfully pollenated 1000's of XButiagrus. I must admit he is good, no, he is damn good at what he does. As far as I know, this is all he does. I agree, time will tell. Maybe we can see some difference when Erik posts some pics of Mark Lynn's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel 50 Report post Posted March 7, 2012 As gary says not what you would expect to see , however I dont see regular butia either for a 15g size, it does look rather odd so maybe it is a hybrid. It will indeed be interesting to see eriks pics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ErikSJI 291 Report post Posted March 7, 2012 I still see nothing but pure Butia in the one Mark Lynn planted in the ground. It has not taken on the weepy form like Mike Evans either. Mark Lynn has never used allogoptera pollen as far as I am aware of. He has tried the Cocos Nucifera pollen again this Winter. Most of the them aborted and 20 seeds are left holding on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alberto 1,533 Report post Posted March 8, 2012 Mike,indeed yours is a strange looking weeping palm (Butia? Hybrid?)........ Was it grown in shade? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike Evans 517 Report post Posted March 8, 2012 Mike,indeed yours is a strange looking weeping palm (Butia? Hybrid?)........ Was it grown in shade? It sees at least 1/2 of the mid day full sun, shaded by the screen around the pool cage. I would think the screen is ~ 20% shade cloth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanips 176 Report post Posted December 17, 2015 Any updates about this amazing thread? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
corsafafa 2 Report post Posted August 19, 2016 news about this cross??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pal Meir 5,174 Report post Posted August 19, 2016 If you want to produce hybrids with Cocos nucifera you should try it at first with one of the following Syagrus/Lytocaryum species: 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gyuseppe 582 Report post Posted August 19, 2016 On 2/9/2010, 14:28:02, Zeeth said: Also of note, there's a Elaeis X Cocos in a botanical garden (in singapore I think). Supposedly it's kind of ugly though ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gyuseppe 582 Report post Posted August 19, 2016 On 2/9/2010, 17:35:05, freakypalmguy said: I have 12 seedlings off my Butia that I dusted with Cocos pollen ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alicehunter2000 704 Report post Posted August 19, 2016 Pal can you explain the chart for us neophytes .... are these chromosome numbers? Do you have a corresponding Butia chart as well? Where did you get this info....thanks 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pal Meir 5,174 Report post Posted August 19, 2016 17 minutes ago, Alicehunter2000 said: Pal can you explain the chart for us neophytes .... are these chromosome numbers? Do you have a corresponding Butia chart as well? Where did you get this info....thanks Oh, sorry, I forgot to name the source: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/asset?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0007353.PDF Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ben in Norcal 1,998 Report post Posted August 20, 2016 8 hours ago, corsafafa said: news about this cross??? The news is it doesn't exist. 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XYZ 492 Report post Posted August 20, 2016 18 minutes ago, Ben in Norcal said: The news is it doesn't exist. Man, that is funny given all the, "Cross my heart and hope to die" declamations at the beginning of the thread. Yes, I suspect a close look at the cladogram (loose sense) Pal Meir provided would be worthwhile to people looking to successfully hybridize Cocos. Useful tool it be to some, that "voodoo" science, molecular phylogenetics... Good luck with the breeding. J Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ErikSJI 291 Report post Posted August 20, 2016 are you guys hating on the Butia X Cocos again hahahaha Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ErikSJI 291 Report post Posted August 20, 2016 Mike Evans how is your cross doing. You had been one of the guys that had received one of 7 that had been produced. Do you determine it to be a butia? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ErikSJI 291 Report post Posted August 20, 2016 Call it what you will. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XYZ 492 Report post Posted August 20, 2016 1 hour ago, ErikSJI said: Call it what you will. OK. Seven years on, can we call this "magical thinking" until we see incontrovertible evidence to the contrary and be done with it 'til then? Generally speaking, not keen on palm hybrids but I have a single, new, very distinctive and fairly showy palm hybrid at hand and can document the origins of the cross with exquisite detail. The palm speaks loudly to its parentage on both sides and leaves no doubt as to its hybrid ancestry, as do most palm hybrids I'm familiar with. Didn't require special clothing, nor secrecy, nor rupturing nomenclatural protocol (i.e. pollen parent listed first on a tag) to produce. Perhaps as many as three thousand spp of palms out there when the final tally is in and a parochial fascination with coconuts by some here continues to dominate the threads. If anything needs its own forum here it's coconuts, no? Bombs away, J 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LJG 1,166 Report post Posted August 20, 2016 10 hours ago, Pal Meir said: If you want to produce hybrids with Cocos nucifera you should try it at first with one of the following Syagrus/Lytocaryum species: Loser talk. I am going for gold. Crossing mine with a spider monkey. That way it can self-collect it's own fruit. 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pal Meir 5,174 Report post Posted August 20, 2016 The reason why I am interested in a thread like this is that I believe that Cocos, Syagrus, Butia, Jubaea, etc. belong to only one genus (Cocos?). 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mandrew968 1,605 Report post Posted August 20, 2016 6 hours ago, Pal Meir said: The reason why I am interested in a thread like this is that I believe that Cocos, Syagrus, Butia, Jubaea, etc. belong to only one genus (Cocos?). Yeah i know a few of you guys personally. "Everything on a genus level should be reduced to a species, and everything on species level should be a cultivar"... 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pal Meir 5,174 Report post Posted August 20, 2016 34 minutes ago, Mandrew968 said: Yeah i know a few of you guys personally. "Everything on a genus level should be reduced to a species, and everything on species level should be a cultivar"... Or we need instead of a binomen a trinomen for some genera: genus - subgenus - species. Any so called intergeneric hybrids belong de facto (= de iure naturae) to the same genus (de iure botanicorum is another question). 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brad Mondel 739 Report post Posted August 20, 2016 More endless loops of hope and wishful thinking. Every time I see this thread light up I still get excited for some reason hoping just maybe that it does exist. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
corsafafa 2 Report post Posted October 30, 2016 butia x coco exist or not ??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nick 29 Report post Posted October 30, 2016 On 20.8.2016, 09:48:17, Pal Meir said: The reason why I am interested in a thread like this is that I believe that Cocos, Syagrus, Butia, Jubaea, etc. belong to only one genus (Cocos?). The closer the relationship the more successful you are with a crossing. The genus alone is no guarantee to be successful. To get a nice crossing is another question. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pal Meir 5,174 Report post Posted October 30, 2016 20 minutes ago, nick said: The closer the relationship the more successful you are with a crossing. The genus alone is no guarantee to be successful. To get a nice crossing is another question. The question is the definition of »genus« in botany: Is it only arbitrary or verifiable? At present it seems to be quite arbitrary. 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
awkonradi 221 Report post Posted October 30, 2016 On 8/19/2016, 7:17:22, ErikSJI said: Call it what you will. Hi Erik! Would you tell us about this specimen? Is this one of your crosses? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mandrew968 1,605 Report post Posted October 31, 2016 I recently brought this up with Dr. Meerow and Dr. Noblick. The question was what was the closest relative to the coconut? Dr. Noblick was confident with Syagrus being closest related. Dr. Meerow believed Attalea to be closest, but also said that this sort of thing may never be known... As for any crosses--the answer is absolutely "NO". If that could be any more emphatic, it would be, considering what is being implied as the parents of any cross( Butia or Elaeis both of which are distant, genetically). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sabal Steve 819 Report post Posted November 1, 2016 On August 19, 2016 11:20:50 AM, Pal Meir said: If you want to produce hybrids with Cocos nucifera you should try it at first with one of the following Syagrus/Lytocaryum species: Pal, How do you read these charts? What would be a good example of 2 species that you would be able to likely hybridize? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mandrew968 1,605 Report post Posted November 1, 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pal Meir 5,174 Report post Posted November 1, 2016 7 hours ago, Sabal Steve said: Pal, How do you read these charts? What would be a good example of 2 species that you would be able to likely hybridize? If (!) this phylogenetic tree is correct all species from (old) Lytocaryum down to Syagrus petraea should be possible, but I guess S romanzoffianum (ex Arecastrum) would again be the easiest. (But why?) 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ErikSJI 291 Report post Posted November 1, 2016 So the story is this. Mark Lynn and his mentor who wishes to remain unknown came across and article from Dr Goodman on hybridizing the butia x coconut. After several letters and lunches with Dr. Goodman they determined this cross could be done and was. 6 survived and given away. One remains at Mule Palm nursery. one was given to Mike Evans. 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sabal Steve 819 Report post Posted November 1, 2016 12 hours ago, Pal Meir said: If (!) this phylogenetic tree is correct all species from (old) Lytocaryum down to Syagrus petraea should be possible, but I guess S romanzoffianum (ex Arecastrum) would again be the easiest. (But why?) Thanks Pal. Just curious. Recently, I've developed an interest in hybridization. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sabal Steve 819 Report post Posted November 1, 2016 13 hours ago, Mandrew968 said: Do you find it funny that people come to the forum to ask questions, Andrew? Obviously, there is a lot of active discussion surrounding hybridization. I think that most of us come to the forum to learn, while others just come to be the center of attention. But, I'm all ears, if you have something constructive to add... 5 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites