How far N in Florida can coconut palms reliably grow?

[Yunder Wækraus]

Yeah, I really like them. I've planted one small sea grape already. I love that their fruit is edible.

[Dave-Vero]

Indialantic and Melbourne Beach currently have lots of happy-looking coconuts, but arguably Burretokentia and Kentiopsis oliviformis are hardier and better for the area. I have one of the latter getting started in my yard, and foisted another on a neighbor, who's taking excellent care of it.

[Yunder Wækraus]

Those are stunning palms. Are they hard to get? And how do you know they're more coldhardy in our area? Have they been used in landscaping in Brevard County for a long time?

[Cocoa Beach Jason]

Kentiopsis and Burretiokentia can both be found at GTC in Merritt Island (Okie). I have purchased both from him. He has giant healthy ones that did fine in 2010's epic cold. Kentiopsis especially does fantastic here. I have two in full sun and they look immaculate and are starting to take off. Burretiokentia, however, fried a little in this summer's heat. It is also in direct sun but would probably benefit from more shade than I give mine.

[rick999]

Hello everyone.  I came across this site after researching the hardiness of coconut trees.  I'm about to try an experiment here at my home.  As a former south Floridian I quite miss it and my little secret is that I have built around myself a refuge architecturally speaking what I miss about Miami.  One of those things is that I miss coconut trees.

The situation is that I find myself living in New Orleans.  I'm presently redesigning my back yard and one of the items I am going to plant is a COCONUT TREE!!!  Now with all the talk on this forum about the northernmost of this tree being mid FL, I'm hoping to blow that away.

This might require some extra ordinary measures to help it get through winter, but I am going to try!  The favorable conditions however are not bad.  We rarely see freezing temperatures and when it happens it does not last long.  I'm thinking of a variety of things to help get me through those periods.  The area is a horticultural 9a 9b zone so we are subtropical.  I have lime, kumquat, orange trees flourishing.  I have palm trees such as the Mexican fan palm that grows like crazy!!!  I planted several 3 years ago from a 1 GALLLON pot size and now most of them are 20 feet tall with a massive trunk!  We have 2 queen palms that are over 25 feet tall.

I know I have to do some things to make conditions good...the soil here is very water retentive with  clay at about 4 feet at my property, so I will make sure it has good drainage and I will bring in some beach sand.

The area I plan on placing it will be near the home, so it will be out of the wind and get some heat from the brick outside and pool.  I'm hoping the cooler climate in the winter will stunt the growth.....I dont want it to get too big or grow fast.  I'm hoping this because I know I might have to wrap the tree in burlap or build some sort of enclosure over it to keep it warm in the winter.  Having lived in Miami, I have to say the winter is not that much different here except it is longer.

Call me crazy but I'm going to try this!!!   If you all have any recommendations for this experiment I'd love to hear, in particular the best variety to survive cold.  Planning on having a about a 6 foot tree shipped here. Probably too late now, but in the spring once the cold has left.

 

Rick

Edited September 13, 2015 by rick999

[displaced_floridian]

Hello everyone.  I came across this site after researching the hardiness of coconut trees.  I'm about to try an experiment here at my home.  As a former south Floridian I quite miss it and my little secret is that I have built around myself a refuge architecturally speaking what I miss about Miami.  One of those things is that I miss coconut trees.

The situation is that I find myself living in New Orleans.  I'm presently redesigning my back yard and one of the items I am going to plant is a COCONUT TREE!!!  Now with all the talk on this forum about the northernmost of this tree being mid FL, I'm hoping to blow that away.

This might require some extra ordinary measures to help it get through winter, but I am going to try!  The favorable conditions however are not bad.  We rarely see freezing temperatures and when it happens it does not last long.  I'm thinking of a variety of things to help get me through those periods.  The area is a horticultural 9a 9b zone so we are subtropical.  I have lime, kumquat, orange trees flourishing.  I have palm trees such as the Mexican fan palm that grows like crazy!!!  I planted several 3 years ago from a 1 GALLLON pot size and now most of them are 20 feet tall with a massive trunk!  We have 2 queen palms that are over 25 feet tall.

I know I have to do some things to make conditions good...the soil here is very water retentive with  clay at about 4 feet at my property, so I will make sure it has good drainage and I will bring in some beach sand.

The area I plan on placing it will be near the home, so it will be out of the wind and get some heat from the brick outside and pool.  I'm hoping the cooler climate in the winter will stunt the growth.....I dont want it to get too big or grow fast.  I'm hoping this because I know I might have to wrap the tree in burlap or build some sort of enclosure over it to keep it warm in the winter.  Having lived in Miami, I have to say the winter is not that much different here except it is longer.

Call me crazy but I'm going to try this!!!   If you all have any recommendations for this experiment I'd love to hear, in particular the best variety to survive cold.  Planning on having a about a 6 foot tree shipped here. Probably too late now, but in the spring once the cold has left.

 

Rick

Hello Rick,

I don't think it's too far fetched to try a coconut there. N.O. has water to the north and south and with protection from your house and heat from the pool, it might make it for several years, maybe longer.  There was one in St. Augustine that lived for several years. Eventually a big freeze will do it in, but that may be 10-20 yrs down the road. Most of the year it would flourish.  Talk to Walt, in central FL, he has grown coconuts in 9b with heating cables at times of worst cold.

[Walt]

Hello everyone.  I came across this site after researching the hardiness of coconut trees.  I'm about to try an experiment here at my home.  As a former south Floridian I quite miss it and my little secret is that I have built around myself a refuge architecturally speaking what I miss about Miami.  One of those things is that I miss coconut trees.

The situation is that I find myself living in New Orleans.  I'm presently redesigning my back yard and one of the items I am going to plant is a COCONUT TREE!!!  Now with all the talk on this forum about the northernmost of this tree being mid FL, I'm hoping to blow that away.

This might require some extra ordinary measures to help it get through winter, but I am going to try!  The favorable conditions however are not bad.  We rarely see freezing temperatures and when it happens it does not last long.  I'm thinking of a variety of things to help get me through those periods.  The area is a horticultural 9a 9b zone so we are subtropical.  I have lime, kumquat, orange trees flourishing.  I have palm trees such as the Mexican fan palm that grows like crazy!!!  I planted several 3 years ago from a 1 GALLLON pot size and now most of them are 20 feet tall with a massive trunk!  We have 2 queen palms that are over 25 feet tall.

I know I have to do some things to make conditions good...the soil here is very water retentive with  clay at about 4 feet at my property, so I will make sure it has good drainage and I will bring in some beach sand.

The area I plan on placing it will be near the home, so it will be out of the wind and get some heat from the brick outside and pool.  I'm hoping the cooler climate in the winter will stunt the growth.....I dont want it to get too big or grow fast.  I'm hoping this because I know I might have to wrap the tree in burlap or build some sort of enclosure over it to keep it warm in the winter.  Having lived in Miami, I have to say the winter is not that much different here except it is longer.

Call me crazy but I'm going to try this!!!   If you all have any recommendations for this experiment I'd love to hear, in particular the best variety to survive cold.  Planning on having a about a 6 foot tree shipped here. Probably too late now, but in the spring once the cold has left.

 

Rick

I'm in zone 9b (but warmer overall than New Orleans) and I've been growing a coconut palm in the open yard for over 10 years. When I planted it, it was trunkless. The first few years I was able to totally bundle the fronds and wrap the entire palm with heavy insulative wrapings. This basically kept the frost off the foliage; hence, the leaves had little cold damage, even if the low temps dipped into the high 20s (for very short duration around sun up).

As the palm got bigger I could no longer bundle and wrap it, so I trained a 30K BTU forced air kerosene heater on it on frosty nights. The heater was too small to totally protect the foliage and some of the fronds did get frost damage. As the palm grew more I gave up trying to protect the fronds. My goal then was just to keep the palm alive by preventing the trunk and meristem (growth bud) from freezing. To accomplish that I bought a 40 feet length of thermostatically controlled heating cable (rated at 7 watts/lineal feet). I spirally wrapped the heating cable around the trunk and up and past the meristem area. Then I wrapped the trunk with a heavy mover's quilt or else a padded mattress cover (makes great insulation). I also used terry cloth towels to insulate around the meristem.

This application assures the palm will not be killed. The fronds may get up to 90% defoliation on the worst winters (like in January and December of 2010) but the palm came roaring back over the spring and summer. Even new fronds weren't stunted like they typically are on unprotected cold damaged palms.

In December of 2010 I had 11 straight nights below 40 degrees and six nights below 30 degrees, with my coldest night registering 20.8 degrees! My coconut palm's fronds were fried -- but the trunk and meristem were undamaged due to my protection. In fact, I installed one of my remote digital thermometer sensors inside the trunk wrappings and the coldest it got was 55 degrees.

So, take my advice: Plan to protect the trunk and meristem of your coconut palm if you expect it to survive long term.

I also protect other zone 10b palms the same way on occasion.

Below is a photo I took in 2010 showing the heating cable spirally wrapped around the coconut's trunk before I installed the insulative wrappings around it so as to hold in the heat.

In the YouTube video below I shot back in July of this year you can see my coconut palm. There's no doubt in my mind this palm would be alive today had I not protected it, as many unprotected coconut palms in my area (but warmer than at my place) were killed in December of 2010's cold snap.

 

Edited September 13, 2015 by Walt

[palmsOrl]

Walt, your garden is astounding.  That coconut is truly a labor of love and a testament to the saying, "where there's a will, there's a way".  The teddy bear palm is nice too, so tropical looking.  I plan to apply the same techniques to a few of my favorite tall Cocos varieties when they get large.  Won't be able to do it to the 15+ (and the number will increase) that I have planted out, but I figure this should be a basically fool proof way to keep a few healthy coconut palms here in Orlando even when the bad winters affect us.  I wouldn't hesitate to try one in New Orleans.  Just be prepared to take the measures detailed by Walt, or build a greenhouse structure over it.  This could, in theory, be as tall as needed (30-50 ft) if your means allow for it.  This will be the only way to get it to do more than struggle for a few few years and then die there.  I think it is totally worth the effort though and fairly easy to do for just one special palm.  I was going to advise getting a tall variety, but since the cold hardiness difference between talls and dwarfs is marginal and won't matter much in a place like New Orleans where hard freezes are not uncommon (in other words, if it gets to 23F, an unprotected Cocos is dead, no matter the variety), you might as well get a green Malayan since their stature tends to be a bit smaller overall.  Also, get a royal.

[rick999]

Wow...I think Walt might be my long lost twin!!!

Heating cables....now that is thinking out of the box.  Great ideas...you all have encouraged me.  I'll be sure to send updates as I move forward.

Its definitely grown colder here the last few years.  We've had more close calls then in the previous decade, but at least their short lived.  I am withing a few hundred feet of Lake Pontchartrain so that helps too.  LOTS of fog in the spring.....but very rare that we go below freezing.

Thanks!

Rick

[Walt]

Walt, your garden is astounding.  That coconut is truly a labor of love and a testament to the saying, "where there's a will, there's a way".  The teddy bear palm is nice too, so tropical looking.  I plan to apply the same techniques to a few of my favorite tall Cocos varieties when they get large.  Won't be able to do it to the 15+ (and the number will increase) that I have planted out, but I figure this should be a basically fool proof way to keep a few healthy coconut palms here in Orlando even when the bad winters affect us.  I wouldn't hesitate to try one in New Orleans.  Just be prepared to take the measures detailed by Walt, or build a greenhouse structure over it.  This could, in theory, be as tall as needed (30-50 ft) if your means allow for it.  This will be the only way to get it to do more than struggle for a few few years and then die there.  I think it is totally worth the effort though and fairly easy to do for just one special palm.  I was going to advise getting a tall variety, but since the cold hardiness difference between talls and dwarfs is marginal and won't matter much in a place like New Orleans where hard freezes are not uncommon (in other words, if it gets to 23F, an unprotected Cocos is dead, no matter the variety), you might as well get a green Malayan since their stature tends to be a bit smaller overall.  Also, get a royal.

Thanks. If it weren't for love of palms and tropical plants -- there's no way I would put in all the labor it takes to maintain my garden, at least to the degree I want to see it kept.

I've tried two other coconut palms prior to the only one I now have. Both were severely cold damaged and later died a slow death about a year later. Both of those palms were small (no trunk). It's imperative that they are protected when they are that young when temperatures drop below 32 degrees. I've found that even though a tropical palm may survive severe cold damage they never again grow normally. Frond production drops to 1/4th or less than normal. The palm languishes for months, even years, then finally croaks. Protecting the entire palm is one thing, but protecting the meristem and trunk/stem is far easier. The main thing is preventing the meristem and trunk being exposed to 32 degrees or less.

There was a time when I protected many palms using heating cables, various kinds of heaters, wrappings, etc. But now most palms are too big, plus I'm not getting any younger, and I'm not going up ladders any longer to try and install wrappings. Unless I can protect a palm without using more than a 6-Ft. step ladder, they now go unprotected. I will, however, make an exception for my coconut palm. I couldn't bare to not protect it and then watch it get killed by a severe freeze.

Below are more YouTube vids I made. The second link below is to my channel. I'm uploading another vid today I made about a week or more ago. Once I get a video editing program I plan on making a video showing how I protect various palms using heating cables and other methods.

Good luck with all your coconut palms. With so many it will be easier to draw conclusions as to how different varieties will fare in cold weather.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRe7J88eWPU

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDKel6w1EWJgvCbe8fEdGNw

[Walt]

Wow...I think Walt might be my long lost twin!!!

Heating cables....now that is thinking out of the box.  Great ideas...you all have encouraged me.  I'll be sure to send updates as I move forward.

Its definitely grown colder here the last few years.  We've had more close calls then in the previous decade, but at least their short lived.  I am withing a few hundred feet of Lake Pontchartrain so that helps too.  LOTS of fog in the spring.....but very rare that we go below freezing.

Thanks!

Rick

I use EasyHeat heating cables. I buy them online from Amazon -- although I first ordered them 15 years ago from a local hardware store. The cables are very soft and supple, like a very lax extension cord. The cables only run warm to the touch. However, there are some caveats that must be observed when using them. The biggest caveat is that you never let them crossover or touch each other. The other caveat is that, even though the cables run warm, if the cables contact green foliage or a green petiole, they can burn/scorch after many hours of contact (like all night long). So, it's not the intensity of heat that burns the foliage, just the prolonged duration of less intense heat that finally causes the foliage tissue to burn. But this can be prevented by simply covering the petiole or foliage with a sheet or light blanket so that there is no direct cable contact with the foliage.

The cables contacting the trunk of the palm have no adverse affect, so there's no problem there. When I eventually make a YouTube video showing how I protect my coconut palm, all of this will be explained and shown graphically.

Here's some examples of the EasyHeat heating cables:

http://www.amazon.com/Easy-Heat-AHB-013-Weather-Heating/dp/B002YFAHAW

 

[spockvr6]

Walt-

 

Yours posts re: this subject reminded me of the "old days"........

 

 

[spockvr6]

The cables only run warm to the touch. However, there are some caveats that must be observed when using them. The biggest caveat is that you never let them crossover or touch each other. The other caveat is that, even though the cables run warm, if the cables contact green foliage or a green petiole, they can burn/scorch after many hours of contact (like all night long). So, it's not the intensity of heat that burns the foliage, just the prolonged duration of less intense heat that finally causes the foliage tissue to burn.

This also reminds me of a few burned palms way back when

 

Listen to Walt!  These cables (and even rope lights) will, if wrapped too heavily directly on the palm tissue, burn and/or kill the palm.  I actually cooked the crownshafts on a few Adonidia and a Foxy Lady.  Cooked as in....the tops of the palms fell over a couple of days later!

[spockvr6]

These lights, once I put a wrap over them, killed the Adonidia.

 

[spockvr6]

Foxy lady post rope lights......many moons ago.

 

 

[spockvr6]

One more then no more trips down a sadistic memory lane.......

Areca caetchu post rope lights!

 

[spockvr6]

Wow...I think Walt might be my long lost twin!!!

Heating cables....now that is thinking out of the box.  Great ideas...you all have encouraged me.  I'll be sure to send updates as I move forward.

Its definitely grown colder here the last few years.  We've had more close calls then in the previous decade, but at least their short lived.  I am withing a few hundred feet of Lake Pontchartrain so that helps too.  LOTS of fog in the spring.....but very rare that we go below freezing.

Thanks!

Rick

Rick-

 

As a fallback from a Cocos (or in addition to).....have you thought about a Beccariophoenix?  These look pretty darn close to a Coconut (you wont fool a palm-o-phile from this board of course, but the average Joe wouldnt know), and are much hardier.  I dont have any Coconuts in Palm Harbor.....not worth the effort IMO (but again I have taken a zero protection approach to all plants) when another palm looks "close enough".

[Zeeth]

The cables only run warm to the touch. However, there are some caveats that must be observed when using them. The biggest caveat is that you never let them crossover or touch each other. The other caveat is that, even though the cables run warm, if the cables contact green foliage or a green petiole, they can burn/scorch after many hours of contact (like all night long). So, it's not the intensity of heat that burns the foliage, just the prolonged duration of less intense heat that finally causes the foliage tissue to burn.

This also reminds me of a few burned palms way back when

 

Listen to Walt!  These cables (and even rope lights) will, if wrapped too heavily directly on the palm tissue, burn and/or kill the palm.  I actually cooked the crownshafts on a few Adonidia and a Foxy Lady.  Cooked as in....the tops of the palms fell over a couple of days later!

I cooked a Jamaican tall coconut this way. (It's fully recovered now, luckily)

 

 

[Walt]

Walt-

 

Yours posts re: this subject reminded me of the "old days"........

 

 

Larry: I remember when you bought a bunch of fabric material (cheap) and had somebody make up socks/sleeves, etc., to help insulate some of your palms. I had forgotten about that until you posted the above photos.

[Walt]

One more then no more trips down a sadistic memory lane.......

Areca caetchu post rope lights!

 

Darn, Larry! I didn't know you had that many casualties using rope lights. Luckily, you don't need them at your Pine Island place.

[Walt]

The cables only run warm to the touch. However, there are some caveats that must be observed when using them. The biggest caveat is that you never let them crossover or touch each other. The other caveat is that, even though the cables run warm, if the cables contact green foliage or a green petiole, they can burn/scorch after many hours of contact (like all night long). So, it's not the intensity of heat that burns the foliage, just the prolonged duration of less intense heat that finally causes the foliage tissue to burn.

This also reminds me of a few burned palms way back when

 

Listen to Walt!  These cables (and even rope lights) will, if wrapped too heavily directly on the palm tissue, burn and/or kill the palm.  I actually cooked the crownshafts on a few Adonidia and a Foxy Lady.  Cooked as in....the tops of the palms fell over a couple of days later!

I cooked a Jamaican tall coconut this way. (It's fully recovered now, luckily)

 

 

I had to learn the hard way with regard to using heating cables. At the S.E. corner of my house I have  a single Adonidia palm -- but it was once a double. The other one died from being scorched and cooked (basically) using a heating cable for extended periods of time. The crown shaft looked like a candy cane or barber shop poll (from the spirals where the heating cable fried the tissue). Just feeling the warmth of the cable under normal conditions I wouldn't have thought it would burn the green tissue, but it did. Same thing happened to a bottle palm I killed. But I learned from that incident. I found that any green tissue must first be covered with a towel or flannel sheet. Something thick or non conducting enough where the cable's heat can over penetrate the tissue. Again, I never had a problem with the cables wrapped around a palm's trunk.

That being said, regardless of my first covering green tissue before applying the heating cables, I use the cables sparingly. My cable's thermostat is set to activate the cables at 37 degrees F  (and not shut off until 45 degrees F). However, I keep them unplugged and only turn them on when the temperature gets closer to 32 degrees ambient, because, since the palm was wrapped, the palm itself is still well above 32 degrees in temperature. The bottom line for me is that I haven't had any further mishaps using heating cables once I learned there limitations. Heating cables definitely have, IMO, their place with the palm hobbyist that want to push the limits -- if they use them properly.

[Bazza]

Walt - thanks for the rooftop video. Precursor to the drone version I'm sure!

We lost all our local Coconuts in my area back in 2010. I lost some on jobs I did and a nice one at my place.

I don't have the guts to plant any more for now....working my way back up starting with Crotons!

Thanks also to everyone on rope lighting info - I've never been a big fan of doing that to any tree - but I do love bullet lighting!

[rick999]

Hey y'all.  As for the imitation coconut....an idea but no, cause I just love those dang coconuts....its half the fun!  I actually use them, I'm quite fond of Thai cooking and this is an essential ingredient.  Last year I stunned our hosts at their home by whacking off a few off their coconut trees and showing them how easy it was to open the top to drink out of. and then being the showboat I can be from time to time used them for cooking some Thai dishes for dinner!

Question:  As for wrapping the fronds in the winter months, what is the best material?  Something that light can get through, or burlap etc? Also, I probably already know the answer to this question...but just in case....better to plant now, or wait until spring?  We have about 2 more months of 70s and 80s before unpredictable weather here.  One day it could be 80 and the next it could be in the 30s in December.

Finally, can someone please identify the palm in the picture?  These are from my former home in Miami.  I really loved these.  Some of them actually ended up in my pool after Hurricane Eric!   Was able to salvage a couple of them by resetting.  I loved these trees, but not sure of the variety or if they are hardy enough for me here in N.O.

These pics were taken not long after they were planted.  They grew quickly and ended up have a huge trunk and approx 20 feet tall with tons of coconuts.  Just loved the sound they made in the wind, and the movement of the fronds.

Thanks

[spockvr6]

Rick-

 

My guess is those cocos in your pic are either maypans or malayans.  I honestly cant tell them apart when smaller, but Im sure there are some distinguishing characteristics that others here will make mention of.  Neither are going to be even remotely hardy in New Orleans unfortunately.  So, you are going to need to build a giant tent for them, and maybe even heat the soil.  What Walt has to do to keep his going is nothing compared to what youll need to do (as his daytime highs are going to be far higher than NO after cold fronts).  So, your work will definitely be a major labor of love  These palms wont make it even in central FL 90% of the time (and some were even killed in parts of SW FL in 2010.)

 

 

Edited September 16, 2015 by spockvr6

[Palmaceae]

It is great that you love these palms and want to try to grow them, but as it was stated a couple times, you will have a very little chance for any type of long term survival of coconuts in New Orleans. It is not just the low temps that you may experience but it is the duration of cold you will receive. Coconuts will stop producing carbohydrates below 60 degrees,  So it is not just the extreme low that will kill the plant but the extended time below 60 degrees that will do it in.  Plus soil temperatures need to stay above that 60 degree mark or the palm will decline. 

Edited September 16, 2015 by Palmaceae

[Zeeth]

I think this is the only chance you have at growing them

 

[rick999]

I certainly understand what you are saying, but you would be surprised at the weather here.  In particular there are a lot of "micro" climates in the area....and where I am it is very different because of the lake across the street from me, and in a very sheltered area....so we dont see much freezing. For instance right now we are 88 degrees and it is in the 90s the rest of the week, warmer than my old home Miami Beach.  Yes it will get cooler but the cold doesnt last long.  Thats when I begin to employ all of my McGiver skills and Walts ideas.

I know its a risk but heck, I'm going to try.  As for the identification of the palms....I dub up a couple of later year ahhh ....photos....well see for yourself, but Im hoping someone might be able to identify it now.  

 

 

[Walt]

I certainly understand what you are saying, but you would be surprised at the weather here.  In particular there are a lot of "micro" climates in the area....and where I am it is very different because of the lake across the street from me, and in a very sheltered area....so we dont see much freezing. For instance right now we are 88 degrees and it is in the 90s the rest of the week, warmer than my old home Miami Beach.  Yes it will get cooler but the cold doesnt last long.  Thats when I begin to employ all of my McGiver skills and Walts ideas.

I know its a risk but heck, I'm going to try.  As for the identification of the palms....I dub up a couple of later year ahhh ....photos....well see for yourself, but Im hoping someone might be able to identify it now.  

 

 

Living in proximity of a large lake is definitely an advantage, pure and simple. I'm not near the wintertime thermal influence of a lake. But in my county we have more than 100 lakes at least over 10 acres in surface area. The largest lake, Lake Istokpoga, is 43 square miles in area.

I have friends and family that live at or within 500 feet of a large lake (3,400+ acres). I can flat out state empirically that most winters it's zone 10b around them. Even in 2010 it was 10a. I've written articles about the lake effect for the Central Palm and Cycad Society's quarterly online publican Palmateer. My elderly parents live on Lake June (about five miles from me). During the winter of 2005-06 I placed a Halsey-Taylor hi-lo thermometer in their back yard (lake side) about 50 feet from the lake, at the base of a large bay tree. On February 14, 2006 we had a hard radiational freeze at my place, and I recorded a low of 27 degrees in the open yard with heavy frost. The thermometer at my parent's house only dropped to 43 degrees -- with no frost! Granted, my thermometer was in the open yard and the thermometer at my parent's house was under tree canopy, so I will have to allow several degrees warmer under canopy. But that winter was a solid zone 11 in proximity of the lake. The thermal capacity of water and its influence to the immediate surrounding area cannot be discounted. In my parent's lakeside community there's lots of fruiting coconut palms and royals and foxtails. And all of these coconut palms made it through the harsh winter of 2010.

One of my next YouTube projects is to document many of the coconut palms (and other zone 10+) palms and shrubs, etc., that grow here in the lakefront communities.

[hbernstein]

I certainly understand what you are saying, but you would be surprised at the weather here.  In particular there are a lot of "micro" climates in the area....and where I am it is very different because of the lake across the street from me, and in a very sheltered area....so we dont see much freezing. For instance right now we are 88 degrees and it is in the 90s the rest of the week, warmer than my old home Miami Beach.  Yes it will get cooler but the cold doesnt last long.  Thats when I begin to employ all of my McGiver skills and Walts ideas.

I know its a risk but heck, I'm going to try.  As for the identification of the palms....I dub up a couple of later year ahhh ....photos....well see for yourself, but Im hoping someone might be able to identify it now.  

 

 

Living in proximity of a large lake is definitely an advantage, pure and simple. I'm not near the wintertime thermal influence of a lake. But in my county we have more than 100 lakes at least over 10 acres in surface area. The largest lake, Lake Istokpoga, is 43 square miles in area.

I have friends and family that live at or within 500 feet of a large lake (3,400+ acres). I can flat out state empirically that most winters it's zone 10b around them. Even in 2010 it was 10a. I've written articles about the lake effect for the Central Palm and Cycad Society's quarterly online publican Palmateer. My elderly parents live on Lake June (about five miles from me). During the winter of 2005-06 I placed a Halsey-Taylor hi-lo thermometer in their back yard (lake side) about 50 feet from the lake, at the base of a large bay tree. On February 14, 2006 we had a hard radiational freeze at my place, and I recorded a low of 27 degrees in the open yard with heavy frost. The thermometer at my parent's house only dropped to 43 degrees -- with no frost! Granted, my thermometer was in the open yard and the thermometer at my parent's house was under tree canopy, so I will have to allow several degrees warmer under canopy. But that winter was a solid zone 11 in proximity of the lake. The thermal capacity of water and its influence to the immediate surrounding area cannot be discounted. In my parent's lakeside community there's lots of fruiting coconut palms and royals and foxtails. And all of these coconut palms made it through the harsh winter of 2010.

One of my next YouTube projects is to document many of the coconut palms (and other zone 10+) palms and shrubs, etc., that grow here in the lakefront communities.

The full name of your parent's lake is Lake June in Winter. I assume that there is a historical reason for that.

[Sandy Loam]

It is great that you love these palms and want to try to grow them, but as it was stated a couple times, you will have a very little chance for any type of long term survival of coconuts in New Orleans. It is not just the low temps that you may experience but it is the duration of cold you will receive. Coconuts will stop producing carbohydrates below 60 degrees,  So it is not just the extreme low that will kill the plant but the extended time below 60 degrees that will do it in.  Plus soil temperatures need to stay above that 60 degree mark or the palm will decline. 

 

Doesn't New Orleans always have temperatures higher than 60 degrees Fahrenheit all winter, at least every afternoon? I thought my climate was similar to New Orleans and every day of winter our afternoon temperatures will range somewhere between 60 F and 75 F -- sometimes even higher.  Rarely is there a day that temperatures don't rise above the 50s, and I thought New Orleans was the same.  

In any case, the overnight winter low temperatures will kill a coconut tree in New Orleans regardless -- like here.   

Good luck with your NOLA coconut experiment, Rick999.  I really hope it works out.     

[rick999]

Weather here is odd, up and down but generally pleasant.  

I just checked Weather Underground historical records:

I think its doable!!!  But I've always been an optimist, and besides isnt this the fun part about life...pushing the envelope just to see what happens?

I'll be sure to update you all as things get going.

Just to note in the graphs....those temps will be lower than where I am, they are from the airport which is inland and no where near water.  Lake Pontchartrain is a very warm lake so we get a very nice warning effect all winter.

 

 

Edited September 16, 2015 by rick999

[Palmaceae]

It is great that you love these palms and want to try to grow them, but as it was stated a couple times, you will have a very little chance for any type of long term survival of coconuts in New Orleans. It is not just the low temps that you may experience but it is the duration of cold you will receive. Coconuts will stop producing carbohydrates below 60 degrees,  So it is not just the extreme low that will kill the plant but the extended time below 60 degrees that will do it in.  Plus soil temperatures need to stay above that 60 degree mark or the palm will decline. 

 

Doesn't New Orleans always have temperatures higher than 60 degrees Fahrenheit all winter, at least every afternoon? I thought my climate was similar to New Orleans and every day of winter our afternoon temperatures will range somewhere between 60 F and 75 F -- sometimes even higher.  Rarely is there a day that temperatures don't rise above the 50s, and I thought New Orleans was the same.  

In any case, the overnight winter low temperatures will kill a coconut tree in New Orleans regardless -- like here.   

Good luck with your NOLA coconut experiment, Rick999.  I really hope it works out.     

I would be worried about the average temps in the winter, I would think it is just too cold to sustain a coconut palm. Walt lives in South Central Florida and has a much warmer average.  Like I mentioned before, it is just not the minimum low, it is the duration of cooler temps in the winter that would do a coconut in.  I think you should still try it as I would try it myself if I lived there, but do not be too disappointed if it does not make it long term.

New Orleans Temperature	Jan	Feb	Mar	Apr	May	Jun	Jul	Aug	Sep	Oct	Nov	Dec	Annual
Avg. Temperature	51.3	54.3	61.6	68.5	74.8	80.0	81.9	81.5	78.1	69.1	61.1	54.5	68.1
Avg. Max Temperature	60.8	64.1	71.6	78.5	84.4	89.2	90.6	90.2	86.6	79.4	71.1	64.3	77.6
Avg. Min Temperature	41.8	44.4	51.6	58.4	65.2	70.8	73.1	72.8	69.5	58.7	51.0	44.8	58.5
Days with Max Temp of 90 F or Higher	0.0	0.0	0.0	< 0.5	4.0	16.0	21.0	20.0	9.0	1.0	0.0	0.0	72.0
Days with Min Temp Below Freezing	5.0	3.0	1.0	< 0.5	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	1.0	3.0	12.0

Edited September 16, 2015 by Palmaceae

[Walt]

I certainly understand what you are saying, but you would be surprised at the weather here.  In particular there are a lot of "micro" climates in the area....and where I am it is very different because of the lake across the street from me, and in a very sheltered area....so we dont see much freezing. For instance right now we are 88 degrees and it is in the 90s the rest of the week, warmer than my old home Miami Beach.  Yes it will get cooler but the cold doesnt last long.  Thats when I begin to employ all of my McGiver skills and Walts ideas.

I know its a risk but heck, I'm going to try.  As for the identification of the palms....I dub up a couple of later year ahhh ....photos....well see for yourself, but Im hoping someone might be able to identify it now.  

 

 

Living in proximity of a large lake is definitely an advantage, pure and simple. I'm not near the wintertime thermal influence of a lake. But in my county we have more than 100 lakes at least over 10 acres in surface area. The largest lake, Lake Istokpoga, is 43 square miles in area.

I have friends and family that live at or within 500 feet of a large lake (3,400+ acres). I can flat out state empirically that most winters it's zone 10b around them. Even in 2010 it was 10a. I've written articles about the lake effect for the Central Palm and Cycad Society's quarterly online publican Palmateer. My elderly parents live on Lake June (about five miles from me). During the winter of 2005-06 I placed a Halsey-Taylor hi-lo thermometer in their back yard (lake side) about 50 feet from the lake, at the base of a large bay tree. On February 14, 2006 we had a hard radiational freeze at my place, and I recorded a low of 27 degrees in the open yard with heavy frost. The thermometer at my parent's house only dropped to 43 degrees -- with no frost! Granted, my thermometer was in the open yard and the thermometer at my parent's house was under tree canopy, so I will have to allow several degrees warmer under canopy. But that winter was a solid zone 11 in proximity of the lake. The thermal capacity of water and its influence to the immediate surrounding area cannot be discounted. In my parent's lakeside community there's lots of fruiting coconut palms and royals and foxtails. And all of these coconut palms made it through the harsh winter of 2010.

One of my next YouTube projects is to document many of the coconut palms (and other zone 10+) palms and shrubs, etc., that grow here in the lakefront communities.

The full name of your parent's lake is Lake June in Winter. I assume that there is a historical reason for that.

Yes, there was a historical reason for that name. The lake was once called Lake Stearns. But Melvil Dewey (creator of the Dewey Decimal Classification System libraries use) was instrumental in getting the lake's name changed. Dewey had a home in Lake Placid, where he moved to from New York in the late 1920s.

[palmsOrl]

Ouch to the rope light damage.  I would be devastated.  That Areca catachu might have been a goner either way though.  I have been debating with myself whether to get one for a protected spot here, but I keep going back to "no zone 11 palms in the ground".  The 10b palms I will plant and have planted many already (and they are going to be an interesting challenge), but the ultra-tropicals aren't even going to survive a winter here.

New Orleans winter averages do look similar to Gainesville, FL and I agree even more now that a greenhouse like structure will have to be set in place around the palm with a small heater for winter nights.  A coconut will not survive an average winter there otherwise.  I wouldn't hesitate to do it myself.

[spockvr6]

Ouch to the rope light damage.  I would be devastated.  That Areca catachu might have been a goner either way though.  I have been debating with myself whether to get one for a protected spot here, but I keep going back to "no zone 11 palms in the ground".  The 10b palms I will plant and have planted many already (and they are going to be an interesting challenge), but the ultra-tropicals aren't even going to survive a winter here.

 

Those photos are from nearly 10 years ago......my crying is long over with. LOL. 

 

[Sandy Loam]

Ouch to the rope light damage.  I would be devastated.  That Areca catachu might have been a goner either way though.  I have been debating with myself whether to get one for a protected spot here, but I keep going back to "no zone 11 palms in the ground".  The 10b palms I will plant and have planted many already (and they are going to be an interesting challenge), but the ultra-tropicals aren't even going to survive a winter here.

New Orleans winter averages do look similar to Gainesville, FL and I agree even more now that a greenhouse like structure will have to be set in place around the palm with a small heater for winter nights.  A coconut will not survive an average winter there otherwise.  I wouldn't hesitate to do it myself.

I checked online and we're a little bit warmer here than New Orleans.  Our average high in the absolute coldest month of the year (January) ranges from 66 to 67 F.  Our average low during that coldest month ranges from 42 to 43 F.  November-December and February-March are considerably warmer.  I have never seen a coconut tree here or in New Orleans, so it may be a difficult experiment in NOLA.  I am really hoping that it works, though, because it would be fabulous to have that tree swaying in NOLA during the months when it will really thrive there without any protection (from 1 March to 1 December).  If it survives, I think it will grow quickly half of the year with all of NOLA's heat, humidity, rain and sun.  It could look beautiful doing those months . Keep us posted!       

[kinzyjr]

Just to add to Walt's point about how sensitive coconuts can be, I have 2 Jamaican Tall's that were planted in the spring.  We recently had a "cool snap", where temperatures were in the 60's during the day, and mid-40's at night.  My lowest temperature recorded during the 3 day cool down was 45F.  You can still see some frond damage just from some extended cool in the pictures:

 

[Bill H2DB]

  Here's couple of pics of the pre 2010 Coconut in the south end of the Daytona area .Took them yesterday , which

was Nov 5 2017 . This palm is shown in other threads . It is a bit hurricane bedraggled , but ok.

  It is just south of Dunlawton Av and near the beach .

 

Dunlawton Coco 11-5-17 by Bill H, on Flickr

 

Dunlawton Coco B 11-5-17 by Bill H, on Flickr

 

 

[Zeeth]

20 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

Just to add to Walt's point about how sensitive coconuts can be, I have 2 Jamaican Tall's that were planted in the spring.  We recently had a "cool snap", where temperatures were in the 60's during the day, and mid-40's at night.  My lowest temperature recorded during the 3 day cool down was 45F.  You can still see some frond damage just from some extended cool in the pictures:

 

I have damage on a Jamaican tall that I collected in Big Pine Key from that snap as well. Interestingly, an adjacent Jamaican Tall that I collected from an old and tall tree on Anna Maria Island is untouched. 

[kinzyjr]

1 hour ago, Zeeth said:

I have damage on a Jamaican tall that I collected in Big Pine Key from that snap as well. Interestingly, an adjacent Jamaican Tall that I collected from an old and tall tree on Anna Maria Island is untouched. 

To be honest, I was kind of shocked that those 2 had any damage at all.  The maypan had some leaf burn as well, but the very well established Malay Dwarf was unscathed.  Usually I don't even start worrying unless the temperature is going to be below 40F, but I may have to make an exception the first year or two for the new guys.  There is no doubt your low temperatures were higher than mine, being that you are further south and toward the coast.