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Fixing chlorosis in Queen palms


velutina

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I need some expert advice on supplementing soil to fix chlorotic palms. I live in an area with alkaline clay soil. The only plants effected are queen palms and bananas. They were planted last summer and fertilized with palm fertilizer, epsom salt, and ironite. This spring I fertilized with citrus fertilizer and more ironite. The new growth remains to be chlorotic. I have a bag of Ammonium sulfate and Sulfur waiting to be used. pH of soil is high and i'm guessing that's the problem. I ran the drip system for 6 hours to try and leech excess salts out. So what should be my next step? Ammonium sulfate, sulfur, or something else? Thanks!

chlorosis001.jpg

Adam 

 

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Queen palms need manganese. Mine always looked like that aswell untill I started using better fert. with more micros. This is what I use on my palms. Not cheap, but works well. www.lutzcorp.com

Chad

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I'm no expert, but I believe Manganese deficiencies show up as frizzle-top, not chlorosis. When I hear chlorosis, I think of acid soils and iron deficienies, but it sounds like that's not the problem. All my acid soil problems are usually taken care of with chelated minerals (iron, manganese, yada-yada).

Longview, Texas :: Record Low: -5F, Feb. 16, 2021 :: Borderline 8A/8B :: '06-'07: 18F / '07-'08: 21F / '08-'09: 21F / '09-'10: 14F / '10-'11: 15F / '11-'12: 24F / '12-'13: 23F / '13-'14: 15F / '14-'15: 20F / '15-'16: 27F / '16-'17: 15F / '17-'18: 8F / '18-'19: 23F / '19-'20: 19F / '20-'21: -5F / '21-'22: 20F / '22-'23: 6F

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I second the idea of manganese deficiency. You should be able to buy bags of agricultural manganese at a good nursery. Not cheap, but very helpful. Make sure you get manganese and not magnesium, obviously have very different effects. Also make sure you are getting sufficient potassium; it produces a different yellowing, not chlorotic, but additional potassium usually helps in overall health. You may also need to lower pH, if it is highly alkaline. Have you had a soil test run? Good luck, it will be a nice palm.

Gig 'Em Ags!

 

David '88

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I checked the packages of the fertilizers I've added and all have manganese. But maybe not enough?

Palm fertilizer 1.0%

Ironite 0.1%

Citrus fertilizer 0.05%

I will look for some manganese at my local nursery.

Any other suggestions?

Adam 

 

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I second the idea of getting a soil test done. Until you know what you're dealing with you could be throwing the balance further out rather than improving the situation.

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IMO it's not a manganese problem. I've seen and treated many DEEP green queens that were deficient in manganese which shows up as distorted, frizzled, and often undersized fronds but not yellow ones. Queens prefer slightly acid soil with lots of organic material. I'd start introducing plenty of compost to the soil around the base of the palm and out several feet from the trunk and you can lightly cultivate it into the soil or just leave it on top. It must then be watered in the way rain would do it. Drip watering won't work in this case unless you're using spray heads that wet large areas.

Jim in Los Altos, CA  SF Bay Area 37.34N- 122.13W- 190' above sea level

zone 10a/9b

sunset zone 16

300+ palms, 90+ species in the ground

Las Palmas Design

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I think you've hit the nail on the head saying you have alkaline clay soil. Specifically what is your pH?

You're going to have to lower the pH I think, but on clay this is going to be a GREAT deal of hard work. Clay has a high pH buffering capacity. In other words it's soil chemistry is locked so tight, it resists pH changes much much more than say sand. You have to use lots more chemicals per cubic meter to drop the pH on clay than sand. Your palms have iron deficiency as yellowing starts on the new growth and alkaline soils lock iron first. As the soil becomes more acid iron starts to unlock and the plant will start to green up. If you want to give your plants a green look without messing with the soil give them a foliar application of iron chelates. Iron chelates are not effected by soil pH. Use iron sulfate and most of the iron will lock in your soil. But this is a temporary fix.

This may sound like a lot of work, but if possible I'd do this. Dig up your poorly growing plants. Remove your bad clay soil and replace with a loamy sand with a lower pH then plant back into that. But don't do any of that until you've tested your actual pH. If it's not too high, you may be able to adjust it back into a more acceptable region. But if it's miles too high don't bother. Also pH is a logarithmic scale. Once you get too far from the mark, you're miles away from where you want to be.

They're my thoughts anyway.

Best regards

Tyrone

  • Upvote 1

Millbrook, "Kinjarling" Noongar word meaning "Place of Rain", Rainbow Coast, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Cool nights all year round.

 

 

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The pH is 7.5+ according to a cheap soil test kit. What should be my target pH be for queen palms?

Adam 

 

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Was 7.5 the highest it went? Normally cheap kits go higher, but you never know. That's not too bad actually. I would try modifying the pH with ammonium sulfate (highly soluble) and/or iron sulfate (highly soluble) and in the long term sulfur which is slow acting but effective. Don't dump a heap on though, you'll burn everything. A little bit often will work better and won't hurt the roots. If you want to get iron into the plant immediately try the iron chelate foliar feed. Of course still give it a complete fert with trace elements but try not to over do it. You don't want to overload the soil with too much fertiliser salt.

Hope this helps.

Best regards

tyrone

Millbrook, "Kinjarling" Noongar word meaning "Place of Rain", Rainbow Coast, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Cool nights all year round.

 

 

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Thank you very much Tyrone! I'll add a bit of ammonium sulfate and sulfur into the soil and see what happens.

I appreciate everyones help!

Adam 

 

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I have this same problem with some of my Butias. A product called Sequestrene 138 which is chelated iron greened them right up. I believe I mixed 1 cup of Sequestrene with 5 gallons of water plus 5 Tbsp of Miracle-Gro Azalea Food (formerly Miracid), then dumped it over the fronds and trunk. Within a couple of weeks they were green again.

I was doing some research and found that in calcerous soil many fertilizers like ammonium sulfate actually increase the pH, and are counter productive, so if your soil is calcerous you want to use ammonium nitrate instead.

Martin Farris, San Angelo, TX

San Angelo Cold Hardy Palms and Cycads

Jul - 92F/69F, Jan - 55F/31F

Lows:

02-03: 18F;

03-04: 19F;

04-05: 17F;

05-06: 11F;

06-07: 13F;

07-08: 14F 147.5 Freezing Degree-Hours http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?sh...ee+hours\;

08-09: 23F;

09-10: 12F 467.6 Freezing Degree Hours, Average Temperature During Freeze 24.2F;

10-11: 13F 1,059.5 Freezing Degree Hours with Strong Winds/Rain/Snow/Sleet, Average Temperature During Freeze 19.4F;

Record low -4F in 1989 (High of 36F that p.m.) 1,125.2 freezing degree hours, Average Temperature During Freeze 13.6F;

Record Freeze 1983: 2,300.3 Freezing Degree Hours with a low of 5F, Average Temperature During Freeze 13.7F.

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The public plantings of Queens in our town are a disgrace. They look like golden merrilli palms. Armed with this good advice, I should say something.

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I was doing some research and found that in calcerous soil many fertilizers like ammonium sulfate actually increase the pH, and are counter productive, so if your soil is calcerous you want to use ammonium nitrate instead.

Would you have a link or something to that information because I would like to see that and understand what's going on in that situation. I know that if it forms ammonia gas it can increase alkalinity, by stealing a H+ ion from the soil reducing it's acidity. But I want to see how to avoid that.

Best regards

Tyrone

Millbrook, "Kinjarling" Noongar word meaning "Place of Rain", Rainbow Coast, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Cool nights all year round.

 

 

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My soil was very heavy clay with a PH in the 8's when I first started REALLY adding palms. Twice a year I would add a couple of inches of rich compost evenly over all soil surfaces. Irrigation, rain, and worms worked it into the soil and I have a rich loam now that virtually everything thrives in including my queens. PH is always between 6.5 and 7. This is the long term remedy for a difficult soil like this. You can pour chemical fertilizers and iron on your queens for a quick temporary fix, but if you want a long term solution, you're going to need to get the soil healthy first. I never feed my plants. I "feed" my soil and it, in turn, feeds my palms.

Also, be careful with chemical ferts as they can destroy beneficial fungi and other organisms in the soil that palms benefit from.

  • Like 1

Jim in Los Altos, CA  SF Bay Area 37.34N- 122.13W- 190' above sea level

zone 10a/9b

sunset zone 16

300+ palms, 90+ species in the ground

Las Palmas Design

Facebook Page

Las Palmas Design & Associates

Elegant Homes and Gardens

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I was doing some research and found that in calcerous soil many fertilizers like ammonium sulfate actually increase the pH, and are counter productive, so if your soil is calcerous you want to use ammonium nitrate instead.

Would you have a link or something to that information because I would like to see that and understand what's going on in that situation. I know that if it forms ammonia gas it can increase alkalinity, by stealing a H+ ion from the soil reducing it's acidity. But I want to see how to avoid that.

Best regards

Tyrone

Here is the article I was referring to. http://www.ipipotash.org/presentn/inmfscy.html#sulfur Check out Table 1. Also, be sure to read this section http://www.ipipotash.org/presentn/inmfscy.html#nman Actually the whole thing is pretty useful.

Martin Farris, San Angelo, TX

San Angelo Cold Hardy Palms and Cycads

Jul - 92F/69F, Jan - 55F/31F

Lows:

02-03: 18F;

03-04: 19F;

04-05: 17F;

05-06: 11F;

06-07: 13F;

07-08: 14F 147.5 Freezing Degree-Hours http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?sh...ee+hours\;

08-09: 23F;

09-10: 12F 467.6 Freezing Degree Hours, Average Temperature During Freeze 24.2F;

10-11: 13F 1,059.5 Freezing Degree Hours with Strong Winds/Rain/Snow/Sleet, Average Temperature During Freeze 19.4F;

Record low -4F in 1989 (High of 36F that p.m.) 1,125.2 freezing degree hours, Average Temperature During Freeze 13.6F;

Record Freeze 1983: 2,300.3 Freezing Degree Hours with a low of 5F, Average Temperature During Freeze 13.7F.

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I completely agree about not using inorganic rapid release chemical fertilizers. Palms, mycorrhyae, and the soil are much healthier and chemically balanced by using thoroughly composted mulch and manure. That is 99% of what I use. However, I do use chemical manganese and potassium, as I cannot find any organic sources in this area.

Gig 'Em Ags!

 

David '88

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I totally agree in using organic matter to build up the soil. But if the pH is way wrong and the palms are suffering, you have to do something now. Organics are way too slow, but yes, the best solution. The question is, can your palms wait.

Best regards

Tyrone

Millbrook, "Kinjarling" Noongar word meaning "Place of Rain", Rainbow Coast, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Cool nights all year round.

 

 

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I was doing some research and found that in calcerous soil many fertilizers like ammonium sulfate actually increase the pH, and are counter productive, so if your soil is calcerous you want to use ammonium nitrate instead.

Would you have a link or something to that information because I would like to see that and understand what's going on in that situation. I know that if it forms ammonia gas it can increase alkalinity, by stealing a H+ ion from the soil reducing it's acidity. But I want to see how to avoid that.

Best regards

Tyrone

Here is the article I was referring to. http://www.ipipotash.org/presentn/inmfscy.html#sulfur Check out Table 1. Also, be sure to read this section http://www.ipipotash.org/presentn/inmfscy.html#nman Actually the whole thing is pretty useful.

Just read the article and it appears that you can minimise the loss of Ammonia to the air when applying ammonium sulfate to an alkaline soil, by watering it in heavily. It's a good article and makes sense. Ammonium sulfate is very soluble so that shouldn't be too hard.

Best regards

Tyrone

Millbrook, "Kinjarling" Noongar word meaning "Place of Rain", Rainbow Coast, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Cool nights all year round.

 

 

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organics compost manure jim is right work on the soil it will do the rest and cheaper than all chemicals every time

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Great info everyone... thanks! Had these same problems with queens and butias. Higher doses of good iron product helped my plants. Jv

Jv in San Antonio Texas / Zone 8/extremes past 29 yrs: 117F (47.2C) / 8F (-13.3C)

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I have this same problem with some of my Butias. A product called Sequestrene 138 which is chelated iron greened them right up. I believe I mixed 1 cup of Sequestrene with 5 gallons of water plus 5 Tbsp of Miracle-Gro Azalea Food (formerly Miracid), then dumped it over the fronds and trunk. Within a couple of weeks they were green again.

This is exactly right, any of those proprietory treatments for chlorotic azaleas or rhododendrons will fix the problem.

Resident in Bristol UK.

Webshop for hardy palms and hybrid seeds www.hardy-palms.co.uk

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Thank you gentlemen for your info, but I'm more puzzled because the Geigy Iron Sequestrene didn't make much difference for me! Back to the drawing board!

Best Wishes,

merrill

Edited by merrill

merrill, North Central Florida

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  • 1 month later...

Update: It's been about 7-8 weeks since I added ammonium sulfate and sulfur to the soil. It took about a month before the chlorosis resolved. Now the color is dark green on all new growth and the plants are growing faster than ever! Thanks for everyones help in resolving this matter :D

Edited by velutina
  • Upvote 1

Adam 

 

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Update: It's been about 7-8 weeks since I added ammonium sulfate and sulfur to the soil. It took about a month before the chlorosis resolved. Now the color is dark green on all new growth and the plants are growing faster than ever! Thanks for everyones help in resolving this matter :D

Thanks for the update & feedback,Since it helps us all to know which is the correct remideal measure to follow when we come across similar problems in our gardens.

Love,

kris :)

love conquers all..

43278.gif

.

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Wow, all that for a little ol' Queen?

Now try some rare palms, stuff Vegas has very few of. Guys like you that push the limits are a big part of the board here so you should be able to source out some palms from the connections here.

Next time you can get the soil right first and keep after it. You probably have plenty of chemicals left over.

One comment about organic aproaches to feeding palms. If you have good soils with high cation exchange organics can work. If you have poor soils they will help but you will not get robust growth. I don't have any soil, just crushed rock and some dead weeds on top. I use lots of water and plenty of balanced fertilizer. Kind of like hydroponics around here. Works great.

And for those pesky "friendly fungi"? They do fix nitrogen but they also form nodules in the roots that actually harm the roots. In the long run they are not what you want for your palms. But not to worry, if you fertilize at all you will kill the fungus and establish good roots.

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I DIG PALMS

Call me anytime to chat about transplanting palms.

305-345-8918

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Wow, all that for a little ol' Queen?

Now try some rare palms, stuff Vegas has very few of. Guys like you that push the limits are a big part of the board here so you should be able to source out some palms from the connections here.

Next time you can get the soil right first and keep after it. You probably have plenty of chemicals left over.

One comment about organic aproaches to feeding palms. If you have good soils with high cation exchange organics can work. If you have poor soils they will help but you will not get robust growth. I don't have any soil, just crushed rock and some dead weeds on top. I use lots of water and plenty of balanced fertilizer. Kind of like hydroponics around here. Works great.

And for those pesky "friendly fungi"? They do fix nitrogen but they also form nodules in the roots that actually harm the roots. In the long run they are not what you want for your palms. But not to worry, if you fertilize at all you will kill the fungus and establish good roots.

Queens are rare in Las Vegas (or nice queens at least). I'd love to get the real "rare" stuff, but i'm moving in 2 years. I need plants that will grow fast so the landscape looks mature when I sell it. (The landscape was bare when I got the house). I've planted over 40 palms (6+ species) and only 4 are queens.

Edited by velutina

Adam 

 

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I actually have 9 species. The only palms I've seen in Vegas that I don't have now are windmill and P. dactylifera. I've never seen a king palm (yeah, I know because they will all die eventually). My king palm has grown faster than any other species I have (even W. robusta). It made it over the winter with zero damage and is growing in the same area as the queens. The only palms I've had issues with are the queens.

I can't really think of any more palms that would do well here. Yeah, maybe others that would survive, but not look great. It's too hot, dry, and cold. (This isn't Phoenix!)

W. robusta

W. filifera

Butia capita

Brahea armata

Phoenix canariensis

Phoenix roebelenii

Archontophoenix cunninghamiana

Chamaerops humilis

Syragrus romanzoffiana

Edited by velutina

Adam 

 

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Update: It's been about 7-8 weeks since I added ammonium sulfate and sulfur to the soil. It took about a month before the chlorosis resolved. Now the color is dark green on all new growth and the plants are growing faster than ever! Thanks for everyones help in resolving this matter :D

That's excellent. Great to hear.

Best regards

Tyrone

Millbrook, "Kinjarling" Noongar word meaning "Place of Rain", Rainbow Coast, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Cool nights all year round.

 

 

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I actually have 9 species. The only palms I've seen in Vegas that I don't have now are windmill and P. dactylifera. I've never seen a king palm (yeah, I know because they will all die eventually). My king palm has grown faster than any other species I have (even W. robusta). It made it over the winter with zero damage and is growing in the same area as the queens. The only palms I've had issues with are the queens.

I can't really think of any more palms that would do well here. Yeah, maybe others that would survive, but not look great. It's too hot, dry, and cold. (This isn't Phoenix!)

W. robusta

W. filifera

Butia capita

Brahea armata

Phoenix canariensis

Phoenix roebelenii

Archontophoenix cunninghamiana

Chamaerops humilis

Syragrus romanzoffiana

The other species within Butia are nice. Maybe some of the Sabals if you arent a Sabal hater :lol: Perhaps even a needle palm if you put it in a shady place and watered until it was established? What about Jubaea, no clue if they will grow but it could be worth a shot. Then of course you have the hybrids.

-Krishna

PS I forgot to say the Livistonas, Im sure some of the more deserty ones would grow.

Edited by krishnaraoji88

-Krishna

Kailua, Oahu HI. Near the beach but dry!

Still have a garden in Zone 9a Inland North Central Florida (Ocala)

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