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bruno

Borassus or Corypha in madagascar?

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Kris

Dear Chris  :)

that information & the link was quite exhaustive for my quries.

and thanks very much.and its shows you are keeping youself

preety upto date_nice work.

Thanks & Love,

Kris(India)  :)

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chris.oz

(krisachar @ Mar. 29 2007,01:50)

QUOTE
Dear Chris  :)

that information & the link was quite exhaustive for my quries.

and thanks very much.and its shows you are keeping youself

preety upto date_nice work.

Thanks & Love,

Kris(India)  :)

Kris,

The internet can be very informative, and there is much information to be found.  One of the best ways to get information quickly is not actually Google.  Its Wikipedia.......

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Utopia Palms

Hi John

The reason I have asked about this is that in Madagascar there is something like 32 different languages, and from one village to the next village the same name could have a totally different meaning, sometimes quite the opposite to the meaning of the very next village. Now with the western culture encroaching on these sometime remote areas the local names are being lost,(much like the species being listed on cities) these are the same names these people have been using for hundreds of years, if a little more time was spent in the field talking to the elders and village wise men, it would not take to long to find out the true name and what this name means to these peoples thus having a better understanding and appreciation of the name being used on these rare isolated species

I have seen local names in some areas lost as the younger generation are to caught up in the western civilization cultures these days, and are forgetting or not bothering in learning there old names all together, surly there must be some cases were this could be protected by the botanists that are naming these species? This will then help save the True species name and also respect the local peoples (land owners) Name? as when traveling through these areas we all must respect every thing in these different peoples area as every thing from the soil to the largest tree is owned by some one, and one must seek permission to pick a fruit or take anything from there land this is just the right thing to do. This is my line of thinking anyway and I think that others would also agree.

Bruno or Joro, may I ask you what other species of palms grow in this area? And how far away are these palms to this new species?

As with what Mike has pointed out, and there are many more unbelievable names given to some of these Madagascaran species from botanists which have only help add to the confusion of these species. I do not understand why these names were given any priority, maybe just as a joke?

E.g. as Mike has listed the name given to Ravenea musicalis being named for the different sounds of the seeds falling into the water, thus it must be Musicalis! How is this name descriptive of this palms appearance or how has this name been given priority over the local land owners name that has been past down from generation to generation?

These are just my thoughts and are in no means to be taken any other way, but it would be nice to see a little more respect being given to the true owners of these new species! :)

All the best

Clayton.

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Zac in NC

Wow, a new Genera. Wow. Thats so awesome. I remember when the pics first came out and onto this forum of all places. Its INCREDIBLE. I am ecstatic.

Zac

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Carlo Morici

Please don't call it "Palmtalkia" :D

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amazon exotics

Bruno, Would you happen to have a picture of the top of the large banana? Would these happen to grow in Panama? My neighbor gave me a photo of a ( he thinks it's a palm ) i think it may be on of these, and a few seeds. Do bananas seed? I never remember seeing seed on banana, but the seed of this is about the size of a penny. He said they are native to Panama in the mountains around 5,000ft. Does anybody know of a palm native to Panama that looks like a banana. He said they are very fast growing.

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Zac in NC

Derek- That is Ensete perrieri. Its endemic to Madagascar. I would bet the banana you saw is Ensete ventricosum. I sent that pic to a friend who is one of the up and coming Musaceae experts and he said its just perrieri. Most non hybridized Musaceae produce seeds, the only ones that rarely seed are the former Musa X paradisiaca, which are typically Musa acuminata and M balbsiana crosses which are typically sterile. If you want more information, I would try the forums at www.bananas.org

Zac

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jam99

(Zac in NC @ Mar. 31 2007,00:37)

QUOTE
Wow, a new Genera. Wow. Thats so awesome. I remember when the pics first came out and onto this forum of all places. Its INCREDIBLE. I am ecstatic.

Zac

Zac, as a botany student you surely know "genera" is plural for "genus". Sorry for being a smart a**, I know you have most likely mistyped the word in all your excitement ;-) Cheers, Jan

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jam99

One more thing, anyone who writes a paper on a new species makes sure the proposed name does not make it public before the paper is published otherwise such a name would be considered nomen nudum. Therefore, we'll have to wait till the paper going to be written by John et al. is officially published before we find out the name they choose for this new species (possibly genus). Only a few trusted peers, who will be asked to review the manuscript, will be privileged to find out sooner than the rest of us ;-)

Cheers, Jan

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Zac in NC

(jam99 @ Apr. 04 2007,11:43)

QUOTE

(Zac in NC @ Mar. 31 2007,00:37)

QUOTE
Wow, a new Genera. Wow. Thats so awesome. I remember when the pics first came out and onto this forum of all places. Its INCREDIBLE. I am ecstatic.

Zac

Zac, as a botany student you surely know "genera" is plural for "genus". Sorry for being a smart a**, I know you have most likely mistyped the word in all your excitement ;-) Cheers, Jan

Jan-Yes, I was overly excited. A whole new GENUS. Its ok, I am occasionally a smart a$$ and I am sure I have gotten on peoples nerves with it. I am not offended in the least.  :D

Zac

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Fouquieria

I remember when this was first posted.  Very interesting--and yes it is exciting.

So being a nonPalm (and nonBotany person)  this is probably a Corypha-like palm but doesn't die when it blooms?  It has characteristics of some other genera as well?  Reading the thread, Coryphas don't occur in Madagascar, but it's not like some of the indigenous Borassus?

Sounds quite exciting.  I hope Gary Le Vine gets to meet you Bruno.  Make sure you tell him how to protect his camera equipment!

Must make you especially proud Bruno...knowing you've been instrumental in bringing possibly a new genus to light.  Pretty seedling too...hope they can grow in SoCal!

-Ron-

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chris.oz

(jam99 @ Apr. 04 2007,10:54)

QUOTE
One more thing, anyone who writes a paper on a new species makes sure the proposed name does not make it public before the paper is published otherwise such a name would be considered nomen nudum. Therefore, we'll have to wait till the paper going to be written by John et al. is officially published before we find out the name they choose for this new species (possibly genus). Only a few trusted peers, who will be asked to review the manuscript, will be privileged to find out sooner than the rest of us ;-)

Cheers, Jan

Jan,

The purpose of the "nomen nudum" concept as I understand it, is to prevent someone just suggesting a name and then later claiming that they named the new species.

In other words,  the same name can be used,  but must have the description published at the same time, then the publisher of the description can  claim they " described" the new species.

Therefore any name suggested here will not be invalidated,  just that the person who thought of the name will not be officially recognised in any way.

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jam99

Chris, you're right.

What I was trying to say was that an author of a new taxon description will try to keep the proposed name secret so it does not make it public before the description itself is published.

Cheers, Jan

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chris.oz

(jam99 @ Apr. 05 2007,02:37)

QUOTE
Chris, you're right.

What I was trying to say was that an author of a new taxon description will try to keep the proposed name secret so it does not make it public before the description itself is published.

Cheers, Jan

I agree,   its all announced in the one paper and its submitted sometimes years before its finally published.  In 3 months we will see the description of the new Beccariophoenix,  which John Dransfield advised nearly 6 months ago would be published in June 2006.   Its no coincidence he didnt reveal the name !

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bruno

No new breaking the news. No news in fact! Just a friend to whom I sent some seeds. He is a biologist in France and his passion is studying palm seed germination. He has in his collection, at least one of palm of each genus. He misses about 10 I think.

So here is his reaction whenhe received the seeds a few days ago.

"Bruno , j'ai bien reçu ce matin par le courrier les 50 graines .

Ces graines ont l'allure de graines de chuinophoenix et le palmier adulte celui d'un corypha .

Il s'agit vraisemblalblement de l'ancêtre de ces deux espèces , c'est assez impressionnant .

Il est en tout cas évident qu'il appartient à la sous tribu des coryphinae mais n'a rien à voir en parenté avec le Kerriodoxa et les Nannorrhops."

For those who dont understand french, he says that it looks like the ancestor of two palms: because of the seed the ancestor of chuinophoenix and because of the adult palm the ancestor of corypha!

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Dave-Vero

The rules for validly publishing new plant names are pretty strict.  One reason is that historically, amateurs and enthusiasts were all to ready to name slightly different-looking plants.  I once had to explain that a newly-named "species" of pine that just happened to live only on the route of a proposed expressway in Atlanta was nothing but the common loblolly pine.

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Alberto

I tried to find this info in the posts but I couldn´t:

_ At what altitude is located and what´s the climate of this´´tsyngy´´?

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bruno

Alberto the tsingy is close to the sea, about 5km maybe. It is very hot in summer 35/40°C and some rain.  Its got its feet in water or close to water, in that season and very dry in winter which starts now.

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paulgila

thats pretty impressive!

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Zac in NC

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Zac

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JD in the OC

Any updates from Dr. Dransfield or Joro on this Bruno?

We're all very excited :)

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John Dransfield

The current status of the new palm.

Joro and I have prepared a generic description, just in time for inclusion in the new Genera Palmarum that went to press yesterday (due out May 2008). I prepared material for Lucy Smith to make analytical wash drawings and a line drawing. We also have a species description. Leaf material has been given to an ex student of mine, Ross Bayton, who will extract DNA and analyse it and then perform a cladistic analysis to see where the genus belongs. Materiaal has also been selected to send to Jack Fisher at Fairchiid Tropical Botanical Garden to study leaf anatomy. Xavier Metz, who discovered the palm in the first place, has taken new high resolution photographs to accompany the publication of the palm. Joro and I shall continue to work on the scientific paper where the name will be published and shall hope to be able to submit this as a multi-authored paper, the authorship reflecting as much as possible the several people inextricably linked to the discovery and study of the palm. OUr plan is that this paper should be published within 6 to 9 months

All this takes time, but it's in hand.

We'll give further progress reports when needed.

John

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Bilbo

Wow - what a minefield!

I for sure wont ever disagree with JD on palm botany cos you certainly know your stuff and are probably our top UK palm botanist.botanists.

All I ever do is the really grubby bit - ie getting the palms dug in correctly using the right lifting gear etc.

Fortunately it takes us all working together to get the ideal result.

Hence the IPS: a meeting of minds or talents I suppose?

Regardez

Juan

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Zac in NC

(John Dransfield @ Apr. 19 2007,09:58)

QUOTE
The current status of the new palm.

Joro and I have prepared a generic description, just in time for inclusion in the new Genera Palmarum that went to press yesterday (due out May 2008). I prepared material for Lucy Smith to make analytical wash drawings and a line drawing. We also have a species description. Leaf material has been given to an ex student of mine, Ross Bayton, who will extract DNA and analyse it and then perform a cladistic analysis to see where the genus belongs. Materiaal has also been selected to send to Jack Fisher at Fairchiid Tropical Botanical Garden to study leaf anatomy. Xavier Metz, who discovered the palm in the first place, has taken new high resolution photographs to accompany the publication of the palm. Joro and I shall continue to work on the scientific paper where the name will be published and shall hope to be able to submit this as a multi-authored paper, the authorship reflecting as much as possible the several people inextricably linked to the discovery and study of the palm. OUr plan is that this paper should be published within 6 to 9 months

All this takes time, but it's in hand.

We'll give further progress reports when needed.

John

Very, very cool. One of the coolest things I think I have ever seen on this board, the discovery of a new genus and species, and we all saw it happen.

Zac

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BS Man about Palms

Has Gary Levine dropped by?? :D

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Utopia Palms

Hi All

"Wow" that’s sure is a different looking seedling not like any of the Corypha seedlings! I think if we all saw these photos at first we all would have realized that this alone makes this a new species!

I think it’s just amazing that in this day and age that yet another fantastic palm can be found, although it looks like it is going to be a water lover it should be quite cold tolerant? or I hope so anyway.

Thank you Bruno for all these great photos. I think we all would love to see any more that you have not just of this palm, any or all the habitat ones that you might have.

Clayton.

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rubyz

As a lover of nature in general, I find it exciting whenever a new botanic or zoologic species is discovered, and as a lover of palms in particular, I find it all the more exciting when this pertains to a new species of palm. All those involved in the processes of discovery and identification deserve much thanks and congratulations.

    Having said this, and certainly not wishing to mitigate any of the enthusiasm concerning this particular discovery, I must say that I am more than a bit perplexed by the seeming inbalance of membership reaction to various happenings in the Family Palmae.

    More specifically, I was rather astonished by the relative lack of reaction to, and interest in, a series of posts submitted a while back concerning the revival of the extinct Judean Date Palm - and from a nearly 2,000 year old seed, no less. True, there was some discussion on the Forum following the successful germination of the seed two years ago, but the posts I am referring to were the first containing data on the plant as a young, viable palm, including updates on DNA analysis, care and maintenance and even the latest photos of the palm. The reaction to all this was simply underwhelming; most of the posters above, including the illustrious Dr. Dransfield, were curiously nowhere to be heard, although it would seem to me that the revival of an extinct species is no less exciting than the discovery of a new one.

     More disappointing still is the fact that despite having forwarded an e-mail to Dr. Dransfield in which I requested approval for submitting an article containing said updated information, I have not, to this date, received even the courtesy of a reply. This, I would think, is quite a pity, seeing that I enjoy a friendly, cooperative relationship, and am in constant phone and e-mail contact, with the three scientists most involved in this significant project, and thereby have access to as much vital information as a layman could have prior to scientific publication.

    Finally, I wish to stress that this post was not inspired by bitterness, but rather by curiousity; I am at a loss to comprehend what makes one palm more equal than another!

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Fouquieria

Since it has been six months, I was wondering if any new information can be shed on this fascinating topic.  It would be great if a few of Mr. Metz' photos could be shared.

-Ron-

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John Dransfield

Just a quick note to tell you that the paper in which this wonderful new palm is described and named for the first time, has been accepted for publication in the Botanical Journal of the Linnean Society and we expect it to appear some time in January or February 2008 - which is incredibly rapid for publishing a scientific paper. As soon as the paper appears I'll post a message here and spill the beans on what it is called etc!

John

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deezpalms

Great news John, thanks!!!!

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palmmermaid

This is very exciting news.  John, you know we are all standing by with bated breath!

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John Dransfield

I have just learned that the paper in which this wonderful new palm is described and named will appear on 17 January 2008 in the Botanical Journal of the Linnean Society. I believe that it should be possible to read it on line at some point, but, whatever, as soon as it is official, I'll post a message here to let you know what it is called. Working with the small team of colleagues on this palm has been most exciting and I really think it is one of the most spectacular palm discoveries of late.

John

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bgl

John,

Great news! We're all looking forward to more information next month! :)

Bo-Göran

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madagascarbob

Facinating story !  Also those are some tough little girls !  Whats the story on them  ?Going where botanist fear to tread !

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Jeff Searle

John,                                                                                                Thats really good news to hear. It's always exciting when a new palm has been found and described. Also, I'm really looking forward to the second edition of Genera Palmarum, are we still looking at May for the approximate month of being released? Thanks,

Jeff

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JakeK

I can't believe I missed this thread the first time around. I read through it all, and thank goodness this forum exists or the news of this new palm might never have been heard. (I think Dean mentioned the same as well earlier in the thread). Exciting news indeed!

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Matt in SD

Thanks for the update John.  I can't wait to put a valid tag on my little baby...   It definitely looks different as a seedling than anything I've seen before.

IMG_0319.jpg

IMG_0320.jpg

Matt

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