Jump to content
bruno

Borassus or Corypha in madagascar?

Recommended Posts

Zac in NC

Very good summation, John. As a Botany student, I understand this. This is what fascinates me about Botany. Field work is my dream. I had not heard the terms hapaxanthy and pleonanthy. Clap, clap, clap, clap, clap!!!!!!!!!!!!

Zac

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gileno Machado

Thanks Bruno and everyone for the great information, especially from Dr. Dransfield. I enjoyed very much the incredible pictures of this magnificent species, hopefully a new one just under identification process, and future cultivation around the planet. That inflorescence is superbly amazing...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bruno

Sorry to tell you that the pictures of the expedition to the corypha with Joro, Mr Dransfield's student , are lost. Some stupid A.H. stole my camera along with passport and all sorts of papers.

Anyway maybe by the end of the week, the reward I promised will bring it back?!

The trip was great;

Before we entered the "tsingy" (the rock formation with razor like stones), the village chief spoke to the ancestors. When he finished speaking, he gulped a huge amount of rum that my friend Xavier had brought along for that purpose...

In the caves inside the tsingy were a few coffins filled with bones, but no one among  the malagasy know whose they are. So they must be very old.

Joro is now on his way to Kew with the leaves, (he folded them, they are 4 meters accross!) and pieces of the infrutescence which is one and a half storey high. I did not realize that until we were at the foot of the palm.

They grow in a very swampy area, and we saw a dead trunk lying not too far from the flowering one.

Many seeds are still on the tree, not ripe. I picked a few fallen on the ground and the rest will be picked by the villagers around and brought to Xavier later on.

That's all for the moment. I hope to have news of the camera before the end of the week ans show you the pics. Optimist.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bruno

I have to add to what I just said that to reach the place in this season one has to know the access. The chief we were with told us where to drive with the car, otherwise we would have gotten stuck in holes of water and mud.

It is nearly innaccessible in this time of year.

The villagers spotted one young "corypha" near their village, about 2 km from the tsingy. Parrots responsible for the germination?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
elHoagie

Bruno,

Sorry to hear about your camera, I hope you get it back.  Thanks for giving us an update, even if you don't have any pictures.

Jack

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jeff Searle

Bruno,

    I'm sorry to hear about your loss also. Like Jack just said, thanks so much for the recent news. I hope this can all be worked out, the mystery solved.

Jeff

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Zac in NC

Yeah I hate to hear about the loss of the camera, but at least there are specimens going to Kew for John to examine.

Zac

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bruno

I have seen a few borassus, they are much smaller than the corypha. And I remember seeing in Bangalore, India coryphas that are larger than the ones in the tsingy.

OFF TOPIC: Here is a pic, for those who love bananas, of a new variety, discovered by one of Alfred's collectors, in the North of Madagascar. It is enormous, look at the size of the man by it.

bananiermalgache.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Zac in NC

Wow, now that in an Ensete!!!!!!!!! I will forward that image to a friend of mine who is a major banana expert. He'll love to see that pic.

Zac

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Morabeza

Thank you Bruno for this most fascinating tale of discovery and adventure.  I am so sorry to hear that you were robbed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Matt in SD

Hi Bruno,

Sorry to hear about your camera.  Sounds like you had a memorable trip though.  That area sounds very strange...caves with bones, undescribed palms with 4m leaves!  Were there any other palms in the area at all?

Matt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bruno

Matt, as I said earlier I think, about 30 palms are growing "inside" that rock formation, which is standing alone in the middle of a flat land filled with 30cm of water in tha rainy season which is now. None are growing on the rock, all in earth near the water level. I picked some of the seeds under water. If my camera comes back? you will see what I mean. There is plenty of vegetation on the rocks, a lot of one variety of begonia, living on what? I don't know! Full sun and very dry in winter. Plenty of other plants, most unknown to me. I noticed, I think, a white pentas growing. Plus trees, euphorbias, monkeys (white faced lemurs who wondered what we were)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bruno

The suspense is growing. Joro and mr Dransfield have received the samples of the palm in London, last week.

So we will soon know what those huge palms are.

Here is a photo of the first seedlings outside their home.

see you in about twoo weeks again.

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g146/tanety/PremierzanakaCorypha.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
chris.oz

Now that its in cultivation as shown in your image,  we only have to wait another 50 years for the seed to become available !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bruno

No, not 50 years!

We have sown only about 100. There is no market for palms here.

They are for sale if anyone wants any.  bye ; bruno

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
chris.oz

(bruno @ Mar. 24 2007,06:05)

QUOTE
No, not 50 years!

We have sown only about 100. There is no market for palms here.

They are for sale if anyone wants any.  bye ; bruno

Bruno,

Great idea to plant 100 seeds.  Always in situe conservation is best.  For wider conservation, export of some seeds to some botanical gardens would be worthwhile if you are able to collect some more.    I am not sure,  but maybe this is possible before the species [ if it is new] is named and the status is lifted to critically endangered and export of seeds becomes illegal under cites.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
John Dransfield

Yes, the material has indeed arrived in Kew and when I drove into Kew from Wales this morning, the first thing I did was to look at the material with Joro. The palm is very perplexing and there are a number of very significant differences from the genus Corypha. At the moment I am inclined to think that it cannot be accommodated in Corypha but will have to be placed in its own genus. I have only had a chance to look for about ten minutes. Currently I am desperately trying to assemble the last few bits of the new edition of Genera Palmarum (which with the arrival of this material is rapidly going out of date!) - GP2 has to take priority, but I am hoping that on Thursday I can sit down and dissect the inflorescence fragments and fruit to see what extra data can be gleaned. We shall then be collecting DNA sequences and analysing them to see where the affinities of the palm lie.

So, this may all take quite a bit of time, but we shall keep you posted with developments.

In summary, my current view is that we are dealing with a new genus.

All extremely exciting

John

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Carlo Morici
:o   :o  :o  :o  :o  :o  :o

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Matt in SD

(Matt in SD @ Dec. 13 2006,00:58)

QUOTE
Maybe I'm just hoping for excitement, but I have a feeling that when all is said and done, this may be a new genus altogether.

Well I was hoping for excitment.  Sounds like things are headed in that direction!

I wonder how long these palms would have remained unknown to the palm world withouth the internet, this board, and it's international group of misfits (especially Bruno).

Matt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bruno

After John, I post Joro's report of this afternoon. It is in french sorry. Good for who those can read it.

We have about 1400 seeds..

100 are going to be planted around the lakes of the property where they were found. The population of this palm will grow from 31 today to ... 131!

Plus the ones that I will plant in sainte Marie on my piece of land, and then the Tsimbazaza garden and others surely. It may not be in danger anymore. Except from the fact that a drainage canal has been set up in the area where they grow naturally that will take a lot of water away for rice fields! So the 31 may be in danger in the future. We don't know yet.

Hi!

Corypha? pas vraiment ou pas du tout! Apparement c'est un mutant! felicitations a vous messieurs car le palmier s'avere etre tres different des Corypha en Asie. Du point de vue vegetatif, tout ramene a Corypha mais comme l'inflorescence en est totalement different et semble t-il proche de celle de Kerriodoxa ou Chuniophoenix mais ces deux genres sont essentiellement herbaces ou arbustives et egalement pleonanthiques (fleurit plusieurs fois avant de mourir). Le palmier de Masiloka est par contre robuste et hapaxantique (fleurit une fois seulement) avec son inflorescence terminale. Comme vous le savez, la classification vegetale est primairement basee sur la structure de l'appareil reproducteur et par consequent il est fort probable que ce palmier puisse etre un nouveau genre ou meme constituer a lui seul un autre tribu. En effet, ce palmier semble etre intermediaire entre les Coryphoideae et les Borassoideae.

Effectivement, ces resultats sont preliminaires mais les gens d'ici plannent d'etudier bientot la composition moleculaire de ce palmier et c'est seulement a ce moment qu'on puisse trouver exactement sa place dans la phylogenie

Je m'excuse pour tous ces termes botaniques!

Merci

Joro

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jeff Searle

John,

    This is possibly very good news! It's not very often when we see a new genus emerge. I tried to understand your reply, if this is a new genus, will there be enough time to include it into GP2?

Bruno,

    Once again, thank-you for all your efforts with getting this material to John Dransfield.

Jeff

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
paulgila

so amazing the way this is unfolding before our very eyes!think about how long this would've taken 100 years ago...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mike4284m

It is quite amazing to see how quickly something like this can come together!

I used BabelFish to translate the French to English.  It's pretty crude but you can get the basic jist:

"Corypha? not really or at all! Apparement it is mutant! congratulations has to you Messrs because the palm tree avere to be very different of Corypha in Asia. From the vegetatif point of view, all ramene has Corypha but as the inflorescence in is completely different and seems T-it close to that of Kerriodoxa or Chuniophoenix but these two kinds are primarily herbaces or shrubby and also pleonanthic (several times flower before dying). The palm tree of Masiloka is on the other hand robust and hapaxantic (once only flowers) with its final inflorescence. As you know it, classification vegetale is primairement basee on the structure of the reproductive apparatus and by consequent it is extremely probable that this palm tree can be a new kind or same to constitute to him only another tribe has. Indeed, this palm tree seems to be intermediaire between Coryphoideae and Borassoideae. Indeed, these results are preliminaires but people from here plannent of etudier soon the moleculaire composition of this palm tree and it is only at this time that one can find exactly his place in the phylogenie I excuse oneself for all these botanical terms! Thank you Joro"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
paulgila

its the fabled MISSING LINK!!! :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PALM MOD

Before I became moderator, I had heard that there were some that questioned the worth and continuing expense of the Forum. I think this "discovery" is a terrific illustration of one of the ways it can benefit the world of palms.

It may be a stretch, but I would like to think that we the Forum were the helping midwife in the birth of a possible new genus.

At any rate, I think it is safe to say, "You heard it here first."  :)

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BS Man about Palms

Bruno- Thats fantastic, you'll have to show Gary when he comes over!!! (I'm sure you will anyway :D)

Wish I was visiting..................someday I hope.

Bill

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bruno

Dear "moderator" of course THIS IS THE PLACE WHERE IT ALL HAPPENED!

Thanks to the invention of internet and this forum where I have learned and shared so much!

I am off to fort Dauphin, south east this morning for a week to meet musicalis et al... bye bruno

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Palmarum

Hmm...now to think of a name for a new Genus...and a species of course.

So many species... so little time.

Ryan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kris

Hey guys can this fan palm be a hybrid between Corypha and

Bismarkia(Green Form) ?

and iam not joking here... ???

or may be all together a new species not yet named or may be

a freak (Genetically disordered palm) ?

Love,

Kris  :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Carlo Morici

Kris,

I do not think Corypha and Bismarckia can produce hybrids, and if so, Corypha is not reported from Madagascar.

It is not an individual "freak" because Bruno has found a whole population consisting of various individuals, sharing common characters.

John Dransfield has just examined the material and he said it IS a new species, and possibly "more". He believes it is a new species in a new genus, so it is not a new Borassus, a new Corypha or a new Bismarckia. It will rather have a new genus name.

This story went very fast, but there is still a lot of work to do. John, Joro, Bruno, or whoelse, will work on the new palm. They will not just dream of a new name to apply to the palm. They will have to study the collected material and follow the slow and winding paths used to describe new species. Also the molecular studies will help to place the new palm in his own position within its related genera/species.

Carlo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Utopia Palms

Hi All

Because this New species is restricted to only one small isolated area I think that the Botanists MUST respect the locals name for this palm! as it might be new to all of us but these local people have been calling this palm the same name for hundreds of years. It’s fair enough that they use a Latin name for the new genus just as long as it is a Latin name and not named after some one!

Clayton

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
calyptrocalyx&licuala freck

(bruno @ Dec. 05 2006,11:29)

QUOTE
Matt in SD said at first this was a borassus, then seeing the flower, he said definitely not!

A firend of mine came here a few days ago and talked about this palm. That friend lives 150 Km north of Mahajanga, west coast of madagascar. He saw it in a geological site called "tsingy" in malagasy, karstic ruins... This palm is known locally as a "dimbaka".

It is enormous like a corypha but no roads go to that place, that can be reached by plane only or by boat. So, my asumption is that it cannot be an imported corypha. So, is it a Borassus?

palmierganttsingy1.jpg

:) Hi Bruno,

Nice to see the local name, LETS hope that this name

will be attached to this Palm, It should .Truely as its local

people have had that name for 100's of years,

"dimbaka" .

or even if both,{in reference to the geological site}

"Tsingy", would be easy to use both names.

We have a passion, and should remember those people

how live where ever,To many 'sp' come out with many

weird names, R. musicalis, (the sound the seeds made

when dropping into water......What the heck where they on, Many other name could have being used, My view,

I know many share that same thoughts.Some

always wanting the Fame & truely not thinging of the

Proper name.

             Regards Mike.E.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
elHoagie

Excellent work Bruno, John, Joro, and everyone else involved.  It's exciting seeing this happen live!

For what it's worth (not much), I agree that a latinized version of the local name for the palm would be best...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
John Dransfield

You may be sure that we shall give very serious thought to the naming of this wonderful palm. We are firm believers that names should be appropriate and of some significance to the people of the country where the plant grows - watching Chinese botanists struggle to articulate the name of one of the commonest Chinese rattans, Calamus rhabdocladus, should be enough to convince anyone of how important it is that a name should be appropriate, euphonious and easily pronounced locally.

We are convinced, however, that Dimaka is a totally inappropiate name, as it is used for Borassus aethiopum, B. madagascariensis, Bismarckia and even Dypsis decipiens - to use this name that has been so generally applied would not serve the purpose.

We also record that the use of local names as species epithets is a minefield - as has clearly been shown by several of the species epithets of Madagascar palms. Think of the confusion of Dypsis tsaravoasira where the botanists and a few local villagers in Masoala use tsaravoasira for a palm that is completely different from the palm known locally as tsaravoasira 100 km further south - Dypsis hovomantsina.

So, we shall be thinking long and hard about what to call the palm.

Joro and John

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alberto

´´Tsyngyphoenix internetiana´´ :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kris

Dear Guys  :)

in that case are these 3 guys preparing a thesies on their findings on this new palm.and will it be submitted to any

botanical nomenclature commmitte or bureao in Paris ?

Just asking as now what !

Love,

Kris  :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Orlando

(Alberto @ Mar. 28 2007,16:39)

QUOTE
´´Tsyngyphoenix internetiana´´ :D

Boryphamaka tsingyana  :D  :D  :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
chris.oz

(krisachar @ Mar. 28 2007,11:44)

QUOTE
Dear Guys  :)

in that case are these 3 guys preparing a thesies on their findings on this new palm.and will it be submitted to any

botanical nomenclature commmitte or bureao in Paris ?

Just asking as now what !

Love,

Kris  :)

Hi Kris,

Basically the new genus / species will be announced in a paper,  hopefully to be published in "Palms" but may be published in another scientific journal.

The naming and classifying of plants and their names is governed by International Code of Botanical Nomenclature this was previously known as the  St Louis code which  has been superceded by the Vienna code which was adopted at the 17th International Botanical Congress, in Vienna in 2005.

A link to the internet version of the St louis code rules is below so you can get an idea of the complexity of the rules without having to buy a copy of the latest code.  You can be assured that those naming the new genus/species  will comply with the requirements of the latest code !

http://www.bgbm.fu-berlin.de/iapt....nts.htm

Hope this helps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MattyB

Neocorypha Brunoii :cool:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...