Closest coconut mimic

[JasonD]

Yeah, Jubaeopsis has that uncanny color+curve combo. Voted for it. There's still a sort of a chunky Butia-esque aspect to it, but Cocos is so polymorphic that Jubaeopsis looks like just another weird cocovariation, like a cousin to the dinky Malayan Dwarfs at Matheson Hammock's swimming lagoon near Miami, or the overpruned gelded specimens at Waikiki...then again, those Waikiki geldings start looking like Howeas in their diminished dimensions...

On the third hand, I have to be grateful that in miserably cold San Francisco Parajubaea delivers in the overall scale and effect once the fur falls off the trunk, and (back in tropical and subtropical climes) Beccariophoenix Windows has that vibrant green foliage. Would love to see a full-fledged B. alfredii for comparison, but a 5g doesn't count, so I couldn't place my vote there.

I chose Jube-opsis because:

!. Its trunks curve. No curve, no coconut, sorry. Those Beccariphoenix, Parajubes, etc. are too straight; they're just poseurs.

2. It's got the coloration.

3. Yeah, yeah, I know, it's a multi, it looks like a grove of coconuts.

NONE of the "look alikes" have seeds anywhere near the c-nut, size-wise.

[Zeeth]

Yeah, Jubaeopsis has that uncanny color+curve combo. Voted for it. There's still a sort of a chunky Butia-esque aspect to it, but Cocos is so polymorphic that Jubaeopsis looks like just another weird cocovariation, like a cousin to the dinky Malayan Dwarfs at Matheson Hammock's swimming lagoon near Miami, or the overpruned gelded specimens at Waikiki...then again, those Waikiki geldings start looking like Howeas in their diminished dimensions...

On the third hand, I have to be grateful that in miserably cold San Francisco Parajubaea delivers in the overall scale and effect once the fur falls off the trunk, and (back in tropical and subtropical climes) Beccariophoenix Windows has that vibrant green foliage. Would love to see a full-fledged B. alfredii for comparison, but a 5g doesn't count, so I couldn't place my vote there.

I chose Jube-opsis because:

!. Its trunks curve. No curve, no coconut, sorry. Those Beccariphoenix, Parajubes, etc. are too straight; they're just poseurs.

2. It's got the coloration.

3. Yeah, yeah, I know, it's a multi, it looks like a grove of coconuts.

NONE of the "look alikes" have seeds anywhere near the c-nut, size-wise.

Not trunking, but this B. alfredii at Kopsick is pretty big (LJG has said he thinks it's just a B. madagascariensis, but I've had it confirmed that it is actually B. alfredii)

[LJG]

Not trunking, but this B. alfredii at Kopsick is pretty big (LJG has said he thinks it's just a B. madagascariensis, but I've had it confirmed that it is actually B. alfredii)

Who confirmed this? Just curious.

[Zeeth]

Not trunking, but this B. alfredii at Kopsick is pretty big (LJG has said he thinks it's just a B. madagascariensis, but I've had it confirmed that it is actually B. alfredii)

Who confirmed this? Just curious.

I was talking to Christian Faulkner, and I mentioned it, but I said I wasn't sure whether it was the one or the other, and he said it was B. alfredii. I guess the leaves are a little more blue or something. I think he talked to the guys who had it planted, but I'm not sure. He's a really knowledgeable guy, so I trust his judgement.

[Tyrone]

B alfredii has only been known about for approx 6 years I think. Is that palm more than 6 years old at Kopsick? Alfred in Tana had access to this palm first before it was described in 2007. My thoughts are that the one in Kopsick is B madagascariensis, but I could be wrong. Unless the seed came from Alfred it most likely is B mad.

Best regards

Tyrone

[floridasun]

i think ill stick with cocos, i mean the lookalikes arent realy that much hardier, they were just meant for places like socal where temps arent high enough in the day, but not that cold at night either. i mean if cocos will grow than why not grow them . a very cool plant though i just dont think it would look much better than the coconut in this crazy winter.

Edited March 6, 2010 by floridasun

[Zeeth]

B alfredii has only been known about for approx 6 years I think. Is that palm more than 6 years old at Kopsick? Alfred in Tana had access to this palm first before it was described in 2007. My thoughts are that the one in Kopsick is B madagascariensis, but I could be wrong. Unless the seed came from Alfred it most likely is B mad.

Best regards

Tyrone

It looks to me to be about 4 or 5 years old, and Kopsick has some really really rare stuff, so I don't think it's out of the question that they could have gotten seed while it was still brand new. I'll talk to some of the guys who do the work at to the park to get a 100% confirmation though, so everyone is satisfied. It's growth rate is faster than the B. madagascariensis at the other end of the park though. It seems to have as many new leaves as B. sp. windows every time I go, while the B. madagascariensis will not.

[Zeeth]

i think ill stick with cocos, i mean the lookalikes arent realy that much hardier, they were just meant for places like socal where temps arent high enough in the day, but not that cold at night either. i mean if cocos will grow than why not grow them . a very cool plant though i just dont think it would look much better than the coconut in this crazy winter.

It's nice to have the ability stick with coconuts, I myself have a bunch of different varieties I'm experimenting with to find the hardiest kind, but it's also nice to have a palm that won't turn brown when we get these kinds of winters. Some of the look a likes aren't much hardier, true, but I'd say a good deal of them are. B. alfredii, as an established palm, will tolerate much lower temps than a coconut. It will grow in places like Orlando, which just get too cold to be able to have coconuts long term (maybe with a few exceptions, but as a general rule, it gets too cold). It, along with the B. sp. windows and B. madagascariensis, is definitely winning this poll, so until Monsanto decides they want to put time and resources to make a GE cold hardy coconut, I'll be planting B. alfredii.

[Kailua_Krish]

I agree with you up to a point floridasun but palms like xButiagrus and Parajubaea (including all the hybrids too) significantly expand the area in which a "coconut" looking palm can be grown. It may not seem like a lot if you live in South Florida or they may seem to not look completely like a coconut but for those of us living in 8b-9b and cooler California it gives us a chance to have something nice and tropical that those of you that can grow "everything" may not appreciate...

-Krishna

[Kailua_Krish]

Keith,

I had heard that Butia x Parajubaea looked a lot like a coconut, I know there are not any mature ones but what do you think about this? (Im hoping to aquire one this year)

-Krishna

[Zeeth]

Keith,

I had heard that Butia x Parajubaea looked a lot like a coconut, I know there are not any mature ones but what do you think about this? (Im hoping to aquire one this year)

-Krishna

I left this one out, because it's so new, and I don't know it's planting range, or anything about it really. I contacted the guy who makes them about acquiring one, and a small plant is around $150. It's more than I have to spend, but I don't think it's a bad price, as no one else is doing them that I know of, they are fast growing, and the guy's got to make a living somehow. The picture I saw of it didn't really strike me as "coconut!" but i havent seen one in person, so i really cant say. I'd say go for it though!

[quaman58]

You know it just occurred to me that no one has mentioned Satakentia. (or at least I don't think they have). They are very similar in "form", at least in the pics I've seen.

[Zeeth]

You know it just occurred to me that no one has mentioned Satakentia. (or at least I don't think they have). They are very similar in "form", at least in the pics I've seen.

I agree, but it's crownshafted, so even though the form is similar, you wouldn't anyone who was well informed on palm trees.

[floridasun]

It will grow in places like Orlando, which just get too cold to be able to have coconuts long term (maybe with a few exceptions, but as a general rule, it gets too cold). It, along with the B. sp. windows and B. madagascariensis, is definitely winning this poll, so until Monsanto decides they want to put time and resources to make a GE cold hardy coconut, I'll be planting B. alfredii.

alot of places in orlando were just as warm if not warmer than the coast, i think cocos would do better in orlando than most people would like to beleive. Edited March 6, 2010 by floridasun

[Zeeth]

It will grow in places like Orlando, which just get too cold to be able to have coconuts long term (maybe with a few exceptions, but as a general rule, it gets too cold). It, along with the B. sp. windows and B. madagascariensis, is definitely winning this poll, so until Monsanto decides they want to put time and resources to make a GE cold hardy coconut, I'll be planting B. alfredii.

alot of places in orlando were just as warm if not warmer than the coast, i think cocos would do better in orlando than most people would like to beleive.

This winter is just a really weird one... Frost in Miami in March? 29F in costal South west Florida? 34F in Bokeelia? Way too weird. Now places in inland Fl with large lakes are warmer than the coast, because the duration of the cold cooled the gulf too much, and it's keeping temps low. Way weird, and, obviously, coconuts were damaged in probably all of Orlando unless protected somehow, I would say. B. alfredii, if mature, would have gotten through these temps with no browning. I have found that they are less hardy when younger, but once they get to the size of the one at Kopsick, they will get through with no damage.

[LJG]

Not trunking, but this B. alfredii at Kopsick is pretty big (LJG has said he thinks it's just a B. madagascariensis, but I've had it confirmed that it is actually B. alfredii)

Who confirmed this? Just curious.

I was talking to Christian Faulkner, and I mentioned it, but I said I wasn't sure whether it was the one or the other, and he said it was B. alfredii. I guess the leaves are a little more blue or something. I think he talked to the guys who had it planted, but I'm not sure. He's a really knowledgeable guy, so I trust his judgement.

Christian Faulkner? Christian is a wiener. Quote me.

I know Christian and I am calling him out. That is B mad. Bring it on.

[PalmGuyWC]

Keith,

I had heard that Butia x Parajubaea looked a lot like a coconut, I know there are not any mature ones but what do you think about this? (Im hoping to aquire one this year)

-Krishna

I left this one out, because it's so new, and I don't know it's planting range, or anything about it really. I contacted the guy who makes them about acquiring one, and a small plant is around $150. It's more than I have to spend, but I don't think it's a bad price, as no one else is doing them that I know of, they are fast growing, and the guy's got to make a living somehow. The picture I saw of it didn't really strike me as "coconut!" but i havent seen one in person, so i really cant say. I'd say go for it though!

I have a Butia X Parajubaea and it really doesn't look like a Coconut, but has a character of its own. If you stretch your imagination, it looks exactly what you would expect of a Butia X Para cross. I think it's much nicer looking than either of its parents, and they grow very fast, and are very cold hardy. Mark Heath has one growing in the Orlando area and it seems to grow equally as well as mine does in N. Calif where I have cold winters and very hot summers. It's a definite winner, but don't expect it to look like a Coconut.

Dick

[Zeeth]

Not trunking, but this B. alfredii at Kopsick is pretty big (LJG has said he thinks it's just a B. madagascariensis, but I've had it confirmed that it is actually B. alfredii)

Who confirmed this? Just curious.

I was talking to Christian Faulkner, and I mentioned it, but I said I wasn't sure whether it was the one or the other, and he said it was B. alfredii. I guess the leaves are a little more blue or something. I think he talked to the guys who had it planted, but I'm not sure. He's a really knowledgeable guy, so I trust his judgement.

Christian Faulkner? Christian is a wiener. Quote me.

I know Christian and I am calling him out. That is B mad. Bring it on.

I'll PM the guys who would be able to give a proof positive 100% ID on it, so we'll see. I would certainly like it to be a B. alfredii, as it certainly looks different from the madagascariensis at the other end of the park, but something like that could certainly be chalked up to the difference between sun and shade growth. Either way, that habitat pic I posted of B. alfredii is definite, so, if nothing else, that picture can be used to get a grasp on how they will look as adults.

[JEFF IN MODESTO]

Here is my Parajubea Cocoides for reference.... grown hot in a hot/ dry ...almost desert climate of Central California's San Joaquin valley.

Jeff Earl

Modesto, Ca

Edited March 6, 2010 by Jeff in Modesto

[Zeeth]

Here is my Parajubea Cocoides for reference.... grown hot in a hot/ dry ...almost desert climate of Central California's San Joaquin valley.

Jeff Earl

Modesto, Ca

Very nice. The leaves look very coconutty. I don't think the adults really cut it though. Just my opinion.

So far, the clear winner is the genus Beccariophoenix, in no. 2 is the coconut's closest relative, Voanioala. I think that Voanioala would have gotten more votes if there were some really good habitat pics, and if it was more widely cultivated. They really do look coconutty, the seed even has water in it. I've already got a bunch of B. alfredii, I think that I want to get a B. sp. windows next, and a Voanioala when I actually have property to plant on (that's in a good climate). I know that seed are now restricted from import, so there's not going to be much availability when i have the property, but I can't afford one now, so there's really no choice i guess.

[JEFF IN MODESTO]

Here is my Parajubea Cocoides for reference.... grown hot in a hot/ dry ...almost desert climate of Central California's San Joaquin valley.

Jeff Earl

Modesto, Ca

Very nice. The leaves look very coconutty. I don't think the adults really cut it though. Just my opinion.

So far, the clear winner is the genus Beccariophoenix, in no. 2 is the coconut's closest relative, Voanioala. I think that Voanioala would have gotten more votes if there were some really good habitat pics, and if it was more widely cultivated. They really do look coconutty, the seed even has water in it. I've already got a bunch of B. alfredii, I think that I want to get a B. sp. windows next, and a Voanioala when I actually have property to plant on (that's in a good climate). I know that seed are now restricted from import, so there's not going to be much availability when i have the property, but I can't afford one now, so there's really no choice i guess.

Yea... I agree.

I have a couple of small B. alfredii's... Donno if they look like cocos yet.... But,hey.. They can take a lot of frost.

I have a small seedling...unprotected this winter... still attached to the seed.. ( Thanks Glenn ) with frost on it and a air temp of 25f.... zero damage.

Jeff

Edited March 8, 2010 by Jeff in Modesto

[Tyrone]

B alfredii has only been known about for approx 6 years I think. Is that palm more than 6 years old at Kopsick? Alfred in Tana had access to this palm first before it was described in 2007. My thoughts are that the one in Kopsick is B madagascariensis, but I could be wrong. Unless the seed came from Alfred it most likely is B mad.

Best regards

Tyrone

It looks to me to be about 4 or 5 years old, and Kopsick has some really really rare stuff, so I don't think it's out of the question that they could have gotten seed while it was still brand new. I'll talk to some of the guys who do the work at to the park to get a 100% confirmation though, so everyone is satisfied. It's growth rate is faster than the B. madagascariensis at the other end of the park though. It seems to have as many new leaves as B. sp. windows every time I go, while the B. madagascariensis will not.

I got my seed in early 07 which was when RPS first had access to them and mine are nowhere near that big after 3 years. The first winter they sat in a hothouse on a heat mat and grew vigorously and the second year I put them into full baking sun, so I don't think they have climate issues considering the winters they get in habitat are not unlike mine except drier. They've been a steady little grower, growing all year round at the same rate, undoubtedly faster than B madagascariensis, but not THAT fast.

Just my observations. However I doubt that Kopsick one is alfredii unless they got the seed from Alfred himself way back in the beginning, which is not impossible.

Best regards

Tyrone

[The Palm Nut]

To add again to the topic, here is the picture of my B. sp. windows. You cant get much closer to a coconut palm than this. Purchased as a 3 strap seedling back in the mid to late ninety's?, from a lady in Pullenvale Brisbane that had a small nursery at the time but sence sold the property and moved on. She told me at the time that the seeds were very expensive and she was reluctant to sell any. Iam glad she relented.

Mike

[JasonD]

Your photo is most convincing, especially with the coconut in the backdrop.

The Beccariophoenix sp. 'Windows' gives the slight impression of a Parajubaea torallyi v. torallyi I've seen -- as if it's a coconut child with one Parajubaea parent.

The Kopsick Beccariophoenix alfredii earlier in the thread also has a Parajubaea cast to it, but of P. sunkha; it looks like an equal mix of coconut & sunkha.

To add again to the topic, here is the picture of my B. sp. windows. You cant get much closer to a coconut palm than this. Purchased as a 3 strap seedling back in the mid to late ninety's?, from a lady in Pullenvale Brisbane that had a small nursery at the time but sence sold the property and moved on. She told me at the time that the seeds were very expensive and she was reluctant to sell any. Iam glad she relented.

Mike

[PalmsZA]

I voted for Jub caffra...

[Zeeth]

To add again to the topic, here is the picture of my B. sp. windows. You cant get much closer to a coconut palm than this. Purchased as a 3 strap seedling back in the mid to late ninety's?, from a lady in Pullenvale Brisbane that had a small nursery at the time but sence sold the property and moved on. She told me at the time that the seeds were very expensive and she was reluctant to sell any. Iam glad she relented.

Mike

Wow, the coconut in the background really adds to this picture. Like I said, the windows version really looks like a coconut when younger, but when it's older, it is just too thick trunked.

[Zeeth]

B alfredii has only been known about for approx 6 years I think. Is that palm more than 6 years old at Kopsick? Alfred in Tana had access to this palm first before it was described in 2007. My thoughts are that the one in Kopsick is B madagascariensis, but I could be wrong. Unless the seed came from Alfred it most likely is B mad.

Best regards

Tyrone

It looks to me to be about 4 or 5 years old, and Kopsick has some really really rare stuff, so I don't think it's out of the question that they could have gotten seed while it was still brand new. I'll talk to some of the guys who do the work at to the park to get a 100% confirmation though, so everyone is satisfied. It's growth rate is faster than the B. madagascariensis at the other end of the park though. It seems to have as many new leaves as B. sp. windows every time I go, while the B. madagascariensis will not.

I got my seed in early 07 which was when RPS first had access to them and mine are nowhere near that big after 3 years. The first winter they sat in a hothouse on a heat mat and grew vigorously and the second year I put them into full baking sun, so I don't think they have climate issues considering the winters they get in habitat are not unlike mine except drier. They've been a steady little grower, growing all year round at the same rate, undoubtedly faster than B madagascariensis, but not THAT fast.

Just my observations. However I doubt that Kopsick one is alfredii unless they got the seed from Alfred himself way back in the beginning, which is not impossible.

Best regards

Tyrone

What would you say describes your climate? Humid Subtropical, Mediterranean, etc? Jeff Marcus says alfredii is fastest of the 3, but he's in Hawaii, and I think the speed of alfredii varies from climate to climate.

This should solve the arguing. I emailed Phil Stager with a picture and request for ID, this is the email i received back;

"zeeth-

This was purchased last fall from D'Assign Source as plain old B.madigascarinensis. If we define B. Alfredii by the lack on window panes in the fronds, then this is B. alfredii since it never had any window panes. Both this one and a much larger one in my yard did quite well this winter. (This one had window panes as a juvenile). I think the extended cold was as bad as one or two nights around freezing.

It does not appear quite as cold hardy as a Bismarkia but looks a lot better than any coconuts around here.

Phil"

I emailed D'Assign source to get more info and better confirmation, I will let you know when I get a reply.

I told him that alfredii definitely has windows when younger, so if it never had windows, it would be a B. madagascariensis. He did say "this one had window panes as a juvenile" though, so I'm not sure if he's referring to the one at Kopsick or the one at his house, or if he means "window panes" in the sense of the windows version (lots of them and very pronounced), or like alfredii has window panes (not as many and they don't last as long). Either way, I'd say it's probably just B. madagascariensis. I really wish this one had an ID tag, so all this confusion wouldn't have happened.

I also offered to him to donate one of my B. alfredii seedlings to the park after they grow a little. I think it'd look cool next to a coconut in the new section of the park that gets full sun.

[floridasun]

This winter is just a really weird one... Frost in Miami in March? 29F in costal South west Florida? 34F in Bokeelia? Way too weird. Now places in inland Fl with large lakes are warmer than the coast, because the duration of the cold cooled the gulf too much, and it's keeping temps low. Way weird, and, obviously, coconuts were damaged in probably all of Orlando unless protected somehow, I would say. B. alfredii, if mature, would have gotten through these temps with no browning. I have found that they are less hardy when younger, but once they get to the size of the one at Kopsick, they will get through with no damage.

you think so, check out this, http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/palms/msg021842314129.html?18 this winter did suck but well forget all about it by next year, hopefully it will be warm. i just hope people dont start taking out the palms and put in crappy stuff, we will look just like georgia. Edited March 8, 2010 by floridasun

[Walter John]

Hi folks, I actually voted for Beccario mad although I see alfred is in the poll lead.

I happen to have similar size Cocos nucifera (in pot) and Beccariophoenix alfredii (in ground) so I thought I'd take some pics and let the viewer consider these two palms at least at these ages/sizes.

aerial view

Cocos

Beccario

And one with Mad Max (Beerwaheart) for perspective of size

[Zeeth]

Hi folks, I actually voted for Beccario mad although I see alfred is in the poll lead.

I happen to have similar size Cocos nucifera (in pot) and Beccariophoenix alfredii (in ground) so I thought I'd take some pics and let the viewer consider these two palms at least at these ages/sizes.

aerial view

Cocos

Beccario

And one with Mad Max (Beerwaheart) for perspective of size

Hmm, not very similar at this size, though I think they have to both be fully pinnate before the similarities become apparent.

[Moose]

I think Beccariophoenix in any form wins this poll. Justifiably so as well. Only a trained eye can actually tell them apart from a true coconut. That's why I'm growing a heap of them especially B alfredii. I can't wait for them to be a much sought after poolside planting that looks exactly like the coconut. Coconuts really can't be grown down here without serious help from the owner. B alfredii will just soak up the conditions and smile at our weather.

Best regards

Tyrone

I concur with Tyrone!

[CoconutFreak]

WHAT ABOUT VOANIOALA GERARDII!!!!??????????

[Zeeth]

WHAT ABOUT VOANIOALA GERARDII!!!!??????????

It's on the list

[CoconutFreak]

I really think Voanioala is the closest to the coconut. (Similar fruits).

[CoconutFreak]

Does anyone have any pictures of very large Voanioala gerardii's??

[Zeeth]

I really think Voanioala is the closest to the coconut. (Similar fruits).

Yes, but it isn't very widely available, due to it's rarity in the wild, bad seed germination rate, and slow growth speed. I believe it's probably closer looking than Beccariophoenix alfredii, but Beccariophoenix alfredii has a much greater potential for cultivation. It has good seed germination rate, relatively quick growth rate, it's easy to cultivate (no major nutritional problems), and there is a pretty solid population in the wild. The two are probably both equally close to the coconut in appearance, but the Voanioala has more similar fruit, which is like a mini coconut that even contains water. But I can buy a 2 strap leaf Beccariophoenix alfredii for a few dollars, but a 2 strap leaf Voanioala would set me back probably over $100. I would really like a Voanioala though, but I want to wait until I have my house in a good climate to try it out, don't want to risk it.

[Zeeth]

Does anyone have any pictures of very large Voanioala gerardii's??

Check the beginning of the thread. I posted all the good pics I could find of it.

[Tyrone]

WHAT ABOUT VOANIOALA GERARDII!!!!??????????

It's on the list

Yeah, but you can't get it here. So they're as inaccessible as moon rocks. i've been after that one and Lemmurophoenix for donkeys years and I'll never get them now. They'll be totally extinct soon knowing my luck.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Zeeth]

WHAT ABOUT VOANIOALA GERARDII!!!!??????????

It's on the list

Yeah, but you can't get it here. So they're as inaccessible as moon rocks. i've been after that one and Lemmurophoenix for donkeys years and I'll never get them now. They'll be totally extinct soon knowing my luck.

Best regards

Tyrone

I don't think I'll be able to get one for a long time. We'll probably have to wait for that one at the Sullivan garden to fruit ( http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=15076&st=0&p=253939&hl=voanioala&fromsearch=1&#entry253939 ), and it's only waist high. Maybe this will be one of those palms that grows super super super slow until it gets a trunk, and then starts growing at a normal rate. Probably not though...

[Tyrone]

B alfredii has only been known about for approx 6 years I think. Is that palm more than 6 years old at Kopsick? Alfred in Tana had access to this palm first before it was described in 2007. My thoughts are that the one in Kopsick is B madagascariensis, but I could be wrong. Unless the seed came from Alfred it most likely is B mad.

Best regards

Tyrone

It looks to me to be about 4 or 5 years old, and Kopsick has some really really rare stuff, so I don't think it's out of the question that they could have gotten seed while it was still brand new. I'll talk to some of the guys who do the work at to the park to get a 100% confirmation though, so everyone is satisfied. It's growth rate is faster than the B. madagascariensis at the other end of the park though. It seems to have as many new leaves as B. sp. windows every time I go, while the B. madagascariensis will not.

I got my seed in early 07 which was when RPS first had access to them and mine are nowhere near that big after 3 years. The first winter they sat in a hothouse on a heat mat and grew vigorously and the second year I put them into full baking sun, so I don't think they have climate issues considering the winters they get in habitat are not unlike mine except drier. They've been a steady little grower, growing all year round at the same rate, undoubtedly faster than B madagascariensis, but not THAT fast.

Just my observations. However I doubt that Kopsick one is alfredii unless they got the seed from Alfred himself way back in the beginning, which is not impossible.

Best regards

Tyrone

What would you say describes your climate? Humid Subtropical, Mediterranean, etc? Jeff Marcus says alfredii is fastest of the 3, but he's in Hawaii, and I think the speed of alfredii varies from climate to climate.

This should solve the arguing. I emailed Phil Stager with a picture and request for ID, this is the email i received back;

"zeeth-

This was purchased last fall from D'Assign Source as plain old B.madigascarinensis. If we define B. Alfredii by the lack on window panes in the fronds, then this is B. alfredii since it never had any window panes. Both this one and a much larger one in my yard did quite well this winter. (This one had window panes as a juvenile). I think the extended cold was as bad as one or two nights around freezing.

It does not appear quite as cold hardy as a Bismarkia but looks a lot better than any coconuts around here.

Phil"

I emailed D'Assign source to get more info and better confirmation, I will let you know when I get a reply.

I told him that alfredii definitely has windows when younger, so if it never had windows, it would be a B. madagascariensis. He did say "this one had window panes as a juvenile" though, so I'm not sure if he's referring to the one at Kopsick or the one at his house, or if he means "window panes" in the sense of the windows version (lots of them and very pronounced), or like alfredii has window panes (not as many and they don't last as long). Either way, I'd say it's probably just B. madagascariensis. I really wish this one had an ID tag, so all this confusion wouldn't have happened.

I also offered to him to donate one of my B. alfredii seedlings to the park after they grow a little. I think it'd look cool next to a coconut in the new section of the park that gets full sun.

Zeeth my climate is dry subtropical, but also falls into the category of Mediteranean, but is actually warmer and much wetter in winter than the actual Mediteranean. Although I'm dry subtropical, my plants don't see dry summers as I irrigate to push them along as fast as I can, so the irrigation often modifies the climate here to be significantly more humid than the surrounding area. We also get much hotter summers than highland Madagascar and the little alfredii's just keep growing happily without a care in the world. I love this palm and have big plans for this species in my landscape business once they get going a bit.

Best regards

Tyrone