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bubba

Cold Winter in South Florida?

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bubba

NOAA proved it.Using Dec./2009 thru Feb/2010, the following locations in South Florida checked in as follows:

Miami(1895)/67.21F/-2.8/34th coldest

Ft Lauderdale(1912)/66.47F./-1.9F./15th coldest

West Palm Beach(1888)/64.1F./-3.2F./10th coldest

Naples(1942)/63.08F/--2.2F./6th coldest

Miami Beach(1927)/65.17F/-5.6F./2nd coldest

Moore Haven(1918)/60.38F/-3.3F./8th coldest

South Florida may be most adversely effected in the State simply because so much tropical stuff grows here.It has taken a lick and my bet is we are all ready to wrap this one up and move on.

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TikiRick

Amen. This has been the WORST winter weather of all time since I have lived in South Florida (1961?) :hmm:

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SunnyFl

Amen. This has been the WORST winter weather of all time since I have lived in South Florida (1961?) :hmm:

I had to double-check the date to be sure this really was for March, not back in January.

FREEZE WATCH FOR S/W FL!

From NWS.....

post-94-12676579205852_thumb.jpg

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bubba

We need to start including March as Winter? It has to stop.

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rozpalm

Now here is something you don't see too often in Winter:

29n811u.jpg

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SunnyFl

Now here is something you don't see too often in Winter:

Amazing, isn't it - but earlier this evening, I was checking Cooper City in S. FL and their overnight low Thursday was forecast to be 38 - ours up in St. Pete was forecast to be 45.

So if I go down there this weekend, I guess I better bring a jacket :rolleyes:

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waykoolplantz

Yes im freaked out !!

I live in Cooper City....may be as cold as 36 !!

Already too much cold damage...very depressed . :(

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Zeeth

So this event will probably be record breaking for the latest day in the season of having below 40 temps, among everything else about it that breaks the records.

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redant

Jupiter forcast for tonight, PATCHY FROST! I'm pretty much give up. Walking around the yard to see what's dropping dead is really depressing.

Edited by redant

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PalmatierMeg

Amen to that. This catastrophic, endless winter is getting me depressed all over again. And the 40-50 mph wind gusts didn't make that 50-something high yesterday any easier to bear. I could take it only long enough to circle the house and bring in the Cyrtostachys and Socreatea. One bout of bronchitis this season is enough.

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Jimbean

I see that, it is strange to see south Florida's forecast lower than central Florida's.

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Zeeth

What phenomenon is causing the south to be colder than the central?

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gsytch

Simple. A strong NW flow of air is coming over the Gulf keeping our coast "warmer". It doesn't have that effect inland, so as the wind abates the temps drop. It was 46F at my house at 6am...38F in Okeechobee! One day this will all be behind us. One day. Maybe July? lol Greg

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floridasun
Jupiter forcast for tonight, PATCHY FROST! I'm pretty much give up. Walking around the yard to see what's dropping dead is really depressing.
dont worry weve had patchy frost brevard in feb already a few times and it didnt damage anything.

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gsn

Simple. A strong NW flow of air is coming over the Gulf keeping our coast "warmer". It doesn't have that effect inland, so as the wind abates the temps drop. It was 46F at my house at 6am...38F in Okeechobee! One day this will all be behind us. One day. Maybe July? lol Greg

Unfortunately that doesn't explain why inland Orlando, or even here in Tiusville which is even farther from the Gulf of Mexico and those NW winds, are both forecast warmer than inland south Florida?

Forecast for Orlando 38F, Titusville 38F... inland south Florida, Lake Placid 34F, Moore Haven 35F are no further from the Gulf than Orlando and are at a considerably lower latitude...Wellington 35F, Redlands 34F on the Atlantic side are no further away from the influence of the gulf than I am here in Titusville yet they are all forecast to have lower temps tonight...

There is something else at play here ,it would be my guess that it is where the actual center of the HIGH pressure is located,that inland south Florida is forecast to be colder than inland central Florida...

Edited by gsn

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Zeeth

Jupiter forcast for tonight, PATCHY FROST! I'm pretty much give up. Walking around the yard to see what's dropping dead is really depressing.
dont worry weve had patchy frost brevard in feb already a few times and it didnt damage anything.

Really? I've only gotten it once this February.

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floridasun

i think weve got it two times, lucky gulf-er :lol: jk

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Zeeth

i think weve got it two times, lucky gulf-er :lol: jk

yeah, "lucky"

We normally get once every 2 years, we got it 6 times in Jan and 1 time in Feb. I'm sick of winter

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gsn

Jupiter forcast for tonight, PATCHY FROST! I'm pretty much give up. Walking around the yard to see what's dropping dead is really depressing.
dont worry weve had patchy frost brevard in feb already a few times and it didnt damage anything.

floridasun,

I think what you fail to realize is that absolute lows might outright kill things,but other things factor into whether a plant will survive.. These extended cold and frequent frost events continue to weaken plants,even after a freeze. Plants that might have survived an absolute low of X degrees,continues to decline with each subsequent low temp even if freezing and frost does not occur...

Another way to put it, 1 freeze event a year is much better for your plants and palms, than 3 or 4 or more freezes in the same winter even if the freezing temps were exactly the same.

Also not having temps rebound like normally further weakens plants,the low average mean temp in this terrible winter for Florida is making it MUCH harder for your damaged palms,and plants that aren't quite dead yet, to rebound and survive.

Edited by gsn

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Jimbean

all will be known in time.

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epicure3

The good news, if anyone has any optimism left, is that we have pretty much reached the endgame. It's only going to go up from here for you guys/ladies in Fla. In a week, your "below average" temps might be what, 72F? I bet you'll have a great winter next go around after all that you've been through. By August, it will all be a bad dream. If some plants and palms die, there will be others in its place. For the damaged palms, it is actually pretty neat to watch them grow out of their burnt fronds. I know from 2007. With the speed of palms in the hot Florida summer, it should be pretty quick so you should have a camera ready.

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Zeeth

We had a low of 41 and patchy frost. I left everything outside, and I know I'll be yelling at myself later, but I just couldn't bring anything in anymore. This includes Pritchardia pacifica, Veitchias, coconuts, royals, and oil palms. I've got spear pull on a Beccariophoenix alfredii that I transplanted in fall (probably a bad idea, but I didn't expect THIS). I followed all procedures, I pulled everything that came out with a tug (spear and newest leaf), poured peroxide in, and then rolled up paper towels and put them in the hole until the peroxide was soaked up. Let's hope we get some 80 degree days soon to get this palm kick started on it's way to recovery.

If it dies, well... I've got 3 more left and 62 seeds that I'm sprouting, so I'm definitely in no shortage of this palm. Here's to a decade's worth of good winters after this one, the longest period of cold weather in a LONG time.

Keith

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floridasun

i agree zeeth, im dreaming of 07-08 winter that was great :drool: , hopefully next winters like that.

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happ

The impact of this winter: Wendy's isn't serving tomatoes in their burgers! Only Florida commercially grows tomatoes during winter. Big losses to agriculture. Shipping California strawberries to Florida super-markets.

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Cristóbal

I see yesterday in the street here in tijuana the price of one box of the strawberries is now 9 pesos. In other years it is 5 - 6 pesos. The harvest starts in end of january and ends in april, the area of san quintín south of tijuana is some very big area for growing the strawberries.

1 us dollar = 12.5 pesos.

The price for tomatos is now 22-25 pesos for 1 kilo. In the winter it is in most years 12 pesos.

The freezes in florida are very good for the growers of produce in california and mexico. But i wish it is not this way - what can i say when i see messages now for 2 months of freezes in florida and people in palmtalk loseing palms and other plants they love and grow for many years ?

Nature can be cruel. The only thing to do is to remember this winter, that it can happen again, and plant again and think about what can happen if you push the zones.

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BobbyinNY

This is very strange indeed. I just got back from Miami. I was there for 7 days, and was surprised that, at night, I had to wear my leather winter jacket that I've never had to wear before. Today is in the 50's up here on Long Island, and, honestly, it doesn't feel THAT much colder than when I was in Miami. Usually when it's that cold down there, it's like the arctic up here, but not this time.

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floridasun
floridasun,

I think what you fail to realize is that absolute lows might outright kill things,but other things factor into whether a plant will survive.. These extended cold and frequent frost events continue to weaken plants,even after a freeze. Plants that might have survived an absolute low of X degrees,continues to decline with each subsequent low temp even if freezing and frost does not occur...

Another way to put it, 1 freeze event a year is much better for your plants and palms, than 3 or 4 or more freezes in the same winter even if the freezing temps were exactly the same.

Also not having temps rebound like normally further weakens plants,the low average mean temp in this terrible winter for Florida is making it MUCH harder for your damaged palms,and plants that aren't quite dead yet, to rebound and survive.

gsn i think what you fail to realize is that even in a time like this winter you have to stay optimistic. im sorry that i was trying to look on the bright side, more things will live than die. we just have to wait, in fact despite all this cold i still see things coming back. i saw a store plant large foxtails yesterday. and i aplaud them for not listening to these people who think we can only have 1 or 2 types of palms. Edited by floridasun

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gsn

Jupiter forcast for tonight, PATCHY FROST! I'm pretty much give up. Walking around the yard to see what's dropping dead is really depressing.
dont worry weve had patchy frost brevard in feb already a few times and it didnt damage anything.

It is one thing to be optimistic, I applaud you for it, but another to live in a fantasy.

For you to state, don't worry we have had frost here (brevard) in Febuary a few times since the freezes and it didn't do any more damage,is just plain wishful thinking, sorry!

And there are plenty of palms that will handle the temps we have had and remain undamaged besides 2 types of palms,they just might not be the exciting 10a ,10b palms you want to be able to handle the weather we have had this year!. Having said that the temps we have had this winter will damage/kill many crown shafted palms. And again even not factoring in this exceptionally long enduring cold winter, it is a fact that Central Florida on average has at least 1 freeze or more every other year!

I saw on another post you have 2 oak trees and 1 queen palm in your yard. Maybe it is easier to be optimistic if you personally didn't loose anything,just a thought. Trust me it is hard watching palms you have grown from seed be destroyed by this winters cold, not to mention what it might cost to replace with the same size today. You begin to temper your zone pushing, at least I will, and I will still have way more than 2 different kinds/types of palms :)

Edited by gsn

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SubTropicRay

This winter was complete s--t and last year was no walk in the park either. The climate is falling into a 1980's-ish pattern I fear. Let's get everything replanted, fertilized and healthy so we can get blasted again in a year, or two, or three, or 5 or all of the above. Palm growing in my neck of the woods is fruitless if you venture outside the same old standbys. For God's sake, the local $@*&%! Queen palms and Brazilian peppers are singed from bouts with frost. The seemingly bullet-proof microclimate I boasted about and tempted mother nature with was annihilated and scorched right back into reality. I spent the previous 13 years trying to convince myself that somehow times (and the climate) had changed and those old catastrophic freezes would "never happen again in our lifetime." What the hell was I smoking??!!

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Zeeth

This winter was complete s--t and last year was no walk in the park either. The climate is falling into a 1980's-ish pattern I fear. Let's get everything replanted, fertilized and healthy so we can get blasted again in a year, or two, or three, or 5 or all of the above. Palm growing in my neck of the woods is fruitless if you venture outside the same old standbys. For God's sake, the local $@*&%! Queen palms and Brazilian peppers are singed from bouts with frost. The seemingly bullet-proof microclimate I boasted about and tempted mother nature with was annihilated and scorched right back into reality. I spent the previous 13 years trying to convince myself that somehow times (and the climate) had changed and those old catastrophic freezes would "never happen again in our lifetime." What the hell was I smoking??!!

Even brazilian pepper was damaged? That's pretty bad :unsure:

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SubTropicRay

Take a close look around your area. Don't be surprised.

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SunnyFl

This winter was complete s--t and last year was no walk in the park either. The climate is falling into a 1980's-ish pattern I fear. Let's get everything replanted, fertilized and healthy so we can get blasted again in a year, or two, or three, or 5 or all of the above. Palm growing in my neck of the woods is fruitless if you venture outside the same old standbys. For God's sake, the local $@*&%! Queen palms and Brazilian peppers are singed from bouts with frost. The seemingly bullet-proof microclimate I boasted about and tempted mother nature with was annihilated and scorched right back into reality. I spent the previous 13 years trying to convince myself that somehow times (and the climate) had changed and those old catastrophic freezes would "never happen again in our lifetime." What the hell was I smoking??!!

The same d**n stuff I was smokin' - and it sure wasn't tobacco! :rage:

Honest to God - and this hacks me off - I finally have a good day, no make that a GREAT day, yesterday down at Searles (we DID make it!) and I was so happy coming back.....

Until we pull in my driveway... 6:45 this morning.... it looked like absolute s***! Dead grass, dead crotons, dead bougies, dead latan, half-dead bottle in spite of heroic measures, half-dead-maybe-100%-dead spindle, questionable lutescens, carked cr** everywhere and get this....

ICE ON THE FLIPPIN' CAR!!! Is this March in Florida???

We even saw seagrapes dying. Yeah, it's an 80's pattern, without the coldest temps - we didn't go lower than 30 - but the frost killed just about everything. Not kidding - we had WEEDS die of cold!

I did a lot of thinking as we were leaving Broward - which, btw, is getting harder and harder to do - and really observing what looked beautiful there. And they didn't escape this latest round of cr** either - I saw burn on the palms, some dead coconuts and shrubs... The day we got there, there'd just been a frost advisory - in Broward - and we were running around the shadehouses in JACKETS!

Ray - seriously - when was the last time you were at Searles' sales in a @$!#%!^$# JACKET??

A few of us chatted on Saturday about how bad it was. Judy & Jim had problems in S/W FL. Ryan had problems in Broward, someone else mentioned losses in Miami. The keys weren't spared either. Hey - Fri. night, we stopped at a BK and there's no tomatoes cuz they were killed in Homestead. Just like what Happ said about Wendy's.

Anyway, here's my thought, for what it's worth:

Many of the beautiful landscapes down on Sheridan actually had those "old stand-bys." And they were absolutely stunning. You know why? B/c they are tough enough to take what nature dishes out. Frost can't knock 'em down, chill can't kill 'em, hurricane can't blow 'em over.

There are impeccably landscaped yards in S. FL, full of selloum, arboricola, stopper... gorgeous and I mean really beautiful old roebs & bizzies, and it occurred to me that isn't there a defiant beauty in something that isn't so fragile? and anyway, how can anyone equate commonality with lack of beauty, makes no sense.

Some of the most elegant tropical gardens in William Warren's book feature these "common" palms.

I think each of us has certain favorites we are desperately wanting to survive in our gardens. But it's so hard, raising a palm from juvie to mature, enjoying it every day, then, a decade later, BAM - some freak-of-nature-cr** kills it. overnight. but...

I REFUSE TO QUIT. :rage:

At least in front, I am going to use things that will survive these "freak" winters. If I can have beauties from faraway places like Cambodia, Madagascar, Mexico wherever, and they are healthy and not keeling over from yet another arctic blitz, or passing cane, I am going to enjoy them, no matter how common. And I am keeping all my "special" crotons and palmies - all 30-40 or so - in pots and indoors a lot, if that's the only way to keep them happy, so be it. That's what screen porches and greenhouses are for.

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SunnyFl

Oh, and........

Driving over Alligator Alley yesterday morning - usually when we go to the March sales, we see H. grandiflora (a FL native) in bloom in the glades. Wasn't any. I did see a bunch of dead shrubs where they used to be. There was a stand of Fakahatchee grass that looked burnt. Even the glades got hammered.

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floridasun
It is one thing to be optimistic, I applaud you for it, but another to live in a fantasy.

For you to state, don't worry we have had frost here (brevard) in Febuary a few times since the freezes and it didn't do any more damage,is just plain wishful thinking, sorry!

And there are plenty of palms that will handle the temps we have had and remain undamaged besides 2 types of palms,they just might not be the exciting 10a ,10b palms you want to be able to handle the weather we have had this year!. Having said that the temps we have had this winter will damage/kill many crown shafted palms. And again even not factoring in this exceptionally long enduring cold winter, it is a fact that Central Florida on average has at least 1 freeze or more every other year!

I saw on another post you have 2 oak trees and 1 queen palm in your yard. Maybe it is easier to be optimistic if you personally didn't loose anything,just a thought. Trust me it is hard watching palms you have grown from seed be destroyed by this winters cold, not to mention what it might cost to replace with the same size today. You begin to temper your zone pushing, at least I will, and I will still have way more than 2 different kinds/types of palms

by crownshafted palms do you mean royal, be cause at least where i live they dont look bad and i am not living any fantasy, its THIS THING THATS CALLED REALITY somthing some people forget after a winter like this, reality is zone 10, its NOT going to be like this forever so get over it, your going to be completly differant this summer as everyone is, and we will forget all about this crappy winter but i will stay zone 10, and the house i live in was built 2 years ago and we just moved in last month so no there isnt anything in the yard, but that dosnt stop me from having potted plants, theres nothing large enough to plant lol, but please dont think that everything is dead because it is not, i thouht you would have seen how much came back last year, so theres that reality you mentioned. and if you lost a palm that you realy loved, you DID NOT protect it good enough, im just saying cocos and royals and tropical palms do the best here but those cold hardy ones seem to always have problems. if you went over to cocoa beach or indiatlantic it looks great. your not the only one that lives in brevard and i have my own opinions and expeiriences with things in my area. cant wait till people get this cold hardy idea stuff out of there heads...by june lol :lol: Edited by floridasun

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happ

Here's what a beautiful "hardy" garden can look like: http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=22293 Dick Douglas gardens in a very cool winter locale where frost is a normal occurrence. I have family up in the Bay Area & got Dick to allow me a visit to his wonderful palm paradise this summer!

What scared everyone was the reality that if Florida can get very cold than no place is safe on earth! :lol: Especially California. What happened here in 1990 & 2007 could be far worse the next time!

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gsn

and if you lost a palm that you realy loved, you DID NOT protect it good enough, im just saying cocos and royals and tropical palms do the best here but those cold hardy ones seem to always have problems.

Yeah your right, I only spent more than several freezing nights monitoring 3 propane heaters though the nights, so I didn't burn the house down trying to keep 3 fairly large palms alive. All 3 are still very much in question! :winkie:

I should have done more I guess?

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Walt

Below are temperature statistics for Ft. Lauderdale FAWN (Florida Automated Weather Network) for the past four Januarys (2007-2010), showing a marked downward trend. This trend is consistent with five other FAWN stations I've checked in central and north Florida. It seems all of Florida is showing a 9-10 degree January average temperature drop:

January 2007

Monthly avg. temperature: 70.65 degrees

Lowest temperature: 45.18 degrees

Highest temperature: 85.03 degrees

January 2008

Monthly avg. temperature: 67.76 degrees

Lowest temperature: 37.21 degrees

Highest temperature: 86.47 degrees

January 2009

Monthly avg. temperature: 65.18 degrees

Lowest temperature: 37.27 degrees

Highest temperature: 85.96 degrees

January 2010

Monthly avg. temperature: 61.10 degrees

Lowest temperature: 33.61 degrees (with 5 nights below 40 degrees)

Highest temperature: 85.32 degrees

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SunnyFl

Yeah your right, I only spent more than several freezing nights monitoring 3 propane heaters though the nights, so I didn't burn the house down trying to keep 3 fairly large palms alive. All 3 are still very much in question! :winkie:

I should have done more I guess?

That's the problem with the stupid heaters. They have to be monitored, which means you're up at 0-dark-hundred in the freezing cold, when you should be asleep - just to help your palm survive.

Sounds as if you had the same luck we did. Husband out in the wee hours, monitoring the heater in the palm tent, just to save the bottle which now looks like hell. Which it did last winter. And when it warms up in the spring, we're going to transplant it to the back under canopy and if it still gets fried, that's tough. So it's getting replaced by a roeb or a glauca or something that can take these winters and not look half-dead right out in front.

Only you had it worse - you were protecting large palms, which our bottle isn't.

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floridasun

has anyone noticed how tender palms like christmas look on major roads and parking lots, i saw two crhristmas palms with only some brown at the mcdonalds parking lot on malabar road, but anyway i just give up maybe your right, i should just forget about cocos or royals and only plant whats "right" for my area like washingtonia or sable :indifferent: zzzzzzzzzz. even though there are still some that dont look bad even in this winter but i guess noone but me can see that. we live in FLORIDAAAAA so why should we be so limited to what we can grow, it gets too hot, it gets too cold, im so tired of the complaining, we cant grow peaches yet no mangos either, even though ive had the best mangos ive ever tasted from a tree here in brevard county, not columbia, you ever heard of merritt island mangos???? and why would i be living in a fantasy land when i just mentioned that the yard only has a queen palm and two oaks, i would have just lied and said thers seven 60 ft coconut palms, so im not living in any fantasy land other than my beutifull florida.

Edited by floridasun

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