"Water-wise" palms for SoCal

[Justin]

Seeing my latest water bill has indicated that, despite my best efforts, I am still watering more than I would like to. At this point, I'm thinking I need to start using more water-wise trees, shrubs, palms. On the palms, I know some of the more water-wise palms, but would like to put together a list for my use and also for anyone else who is interested. I'll start. Please expand.

Butia capitata

Butia x Syagrus

Dypsis decaryi

Jubaea chilensis

Jubaea x Butia

Parajubaea cocoides

Parajubaea torallyi

Phoenix canariensis

Phoenix dactylifera

Phoenix roebellini

Washingtonia filifera

Washingtonia robusta

[MattyB]

Justin, you have one of the largest lawns I've ever seen. Time to make some huge planters and rip some of that stuff out. I have to admit, it does look nice though. Here's some more water-wise palms.

Brahea spp.

Ravenea xerophylla

Ravenea glauca

Bizmarckia nobilis

Livistona decora

Sabal spp

Syagrus spp

Copernicia alba, prunifera, baileyana

Trithrinax spp.

Dypsis onilahensis

Dypsis decipiens

Dypsis ambositrae

Pseudophoenix spp.

[Gtlevine]

Justin, I agree with MattyB that you need to rip out some lawn. You can place dozens of palms and trees that will use less water than lawns. Also, you have Jubaea on your list for water wise palms, but Jubaeas do best when given lots of water.

GAry

[Justin]

Believe it or not, the lawn doesn't require that much water any more. Over the years, I have gradually tapered back, and forced the roots to go deep. I water the lawn only once a week during the summer, and only once a month this time of year.

Thanks for the list so far, this is looking good.

[DoomsDave]

Justin:

I concur with Matty and Gary. I took out all of my lawn, and just planted palm jungle. (Come visit and see!)

They've come up with the easy palms.

Here are a few more:

Phoenix theophrastii

Dypsis plumosa, i.e., "fakey ambositrae"

Phoenix acaulis

Sabal Riverside

Hyaphaene

(Borassus?)

Syagrus roman-etc.

Trachycarpus (if planted out of high winds).

Feel a new thread coming on . . . . .

[MattyB]

Some more water-wise palms:

Coccothrinax spp.

Allagoptera arenarium

Jubaeopsis caffra

Nannorhops

[DoomsDave]

Some more water-wise palms:

Coccothrinax spp.

Allagoptera arenarium

Jubaeopsis caffra

Nannorhops

I agree with all except the Jube-opsis . . . .

[LJG]

Many palms on here are not 'water-wise' if you want them to look good. Sure, they can get by without water but they will never look great like you would expect in cultivation. If you are really trying to conserve water, plant the truly xerophytic palms. If water conservation is #1 for you, palms are not good choices once you get past the few xerophytic ones.

The other issue is many palms listed here can not handle dry winds and need water during Santa Ana's. So that too does not help a 'water-wise' gardener.

I think the real key to being water-wise with palms is to adjust your watering application. Most people use spray heads or bubblers. You can use drip like Gary does and target water loving palms without runoff or waste. To me this is being water-wise with palms.

[Justin]

Many palms on here are not 'water-wise' if you want them to look good. Sure, they can get by without water but they will never look great like you would expect in cultivation. If you are really trying to conserve water, plant the truly xerophytic palms. If water conservation is #1 for you, palms are not good choices once you get past the few xerophytic ones.

The other issue is many palms listed here can not handle dry winds and need water during Santa Ana's. So that too does not help a 'water-wise' gardener.

I think the real key to being water-wise with palms is to adjust your watering application. Most people use spray heads or bubblers. You can use drip like Gary does and target water loving palms without runoff or waste. To me this is being water-wise with palms.

Len, could you please list the ones that you have in mind for the "xerophytic" palms? Thanks!

[BS Man about Palms]

Len would have a better Idea than me, but I would bet Ravenea xerophylla and Brahea armata for 2....

[LJG]

Many palms on here are not 'water-wise' if you want them to look good. Sure, they can get by without water but they will never look great like you would expect in cultivation. If you are really trying to conserve water, plant the truly xerophytic palms. If water conservation is #1 for you, palms are not good choices once you get past the few xerophytic ones.

The other issue is many palms listed here can not handle dry winds and need water during Santa Ana's. So that too does not help a 'water-wise' gardener.

I think the real key to being water-wise with palms is to adjust your watering application. Most people use spray heads or bubblers. You can use drip like Gary does and target water loving palms without runoff or waste. To me this is being water-wise with palms.

Len, could you please list the ones that you have in mind for the "xerophytic" palms? Thanks!

Off the top of my head, Hyphaene thebaica and Medemia argun are about as best you can get.

[MattyB]

Len,

Of course the term "water-wise" is a matter of opinion (and soil composition). Your definition seems to be more strict. But a palm that, once established, that only needs watering once a week in the hottest time of Summer, and still looks good is water-wise in my opinion. All of the palms on my list do that with flying colors.

Have you looked into ammending with clay or heavy clay? I was watering by hose for a long time, so when I planted I ammended the backfill (with compost) very heavily so that when I watered I could fill up the watering basin without run off. After time the compost started to decompose and the soil around the original root ball started to dry out too easily, especially once I started watering with drip. So I started back packing with heavy clay fill dirt. The palms have really appreciated it. You have good drainage with your DG so you're not going to bog your soil down. Poke several dozen deep holes around the root zone of a palm with a pointed digging bar and pack them with heavy clay fill dirt. Mulch on top and let the irrigation, rain & worms go to work.

[LJG]

All of the palms on my list do that with flying colors.

No they don't Matt.

"Syagrus spp". Syagrus schizophylla, Syagrus amara, Syagrus botryophora, Syagrus pseudococos, Syagrus sancona and Syagrus picrophylla all require a lot of water to look good. If you only water once a week during Santa Ana's, something like your Syagrus botryophora will be torched.

Copernicia prunifera and baileyana like water. It is a misnomer that they do not. They die slow deaths (especially Baileyana) if not watered in hot summer times. People that have them looking good, water these plants a lot. Mine are doing great because they get water.

"Dypsis onilahensis, decipiens, ambositrae"? Not sure I agree here. These like more water then less. Again, it is simply going to be an opinion of what looks good to the individual.

There are others that we can debate. But it will only be an opinion or what looks good. I can put a Hibiscus in the ground and water it once a month. Some might say it still looks good........

Water-wise will be opinion as you stated. To the water Nazi's it means living off what mother nature provides. This is what I would call a "xerophytic" palm. That once established will live off the natural amounts of rainfall SoCal gets. Common ones like Phoenix dactylifera, Brahea armata and Chamaerops humilis (which I am surprised no one mentioned earlier) all can do this and I have witnessed it. The simple fact is palms are not cactus, agaves, xerophytic dicots, etc..

Your definition of "water-wise" being "a palm that, once established, that only needs watering once a week in the hottest time of Summer, and still looks good" is water-wise in my opinion too. I am not arguing this. You can pull out Riffle's book and get the list of 50 or so palms that will meet this criteria. But it all goes back to my point on watering application. Guys like you and Gary use drip at the base and you have no other real plantings around it of complimentary things like flowers, ground cover, shrubs, etc.. So you can do this and it is smart. I can not. I must use sprayers. As of last year I changed out all my heads to rotators. Cost me an arm and a leg. But to me the 30% drop in water made me "water-wise". I then added bubblers to palm bases to get water to more tropical palms to lower the length of times I had to water on spray. This too was water-wise to me. Now forward ahead two more years into the future. Are people going to see this as "water-wise"? Doubt it.

Have you looked into ammending with clay or heavy clay?

Matt, I have no interest in changing the soil to hold more water with clay amendments. I am spending all my time making it more organic to stop all non-organic treatments a few years down the road. The more organic the soil, the more water it will hold compared to the straight DG I have now anyway.

[MattyB]

Good debate Len.

Syagrus spp". Syagrus schizophylla, Syagrus amara, Syagrus botryophora, Syagrus pseudococos, Syagrus sancona and Syagrus picrophylla all require a lot of water to look good.

You're right. When I put spp. I meant some of the species, I didn't mean to include all. I was misleading, sorry.

"Dypsis onilahensis, decipiens, ambositrae"? Not sure I agree here. These like more water then less. Again, it is simply going to be an opinion of what looks good to the individual.

At my place, watering these once a week is plenty to keep them looking great.

Regarding your watering set up versus mine or Gary's:

I think your mixing your other plant material into this thread. We're talking about water wise palms, not how to negotiate your watering style with other companion plants. If you thought of your palms (or trees) as if they were on a dedicated valve then we're comparing apples to apples. I undertand what you've explained regarding the changes to your irrigation system and it sounds like you've gone above and beyond in an effort to be water-wise. The only other option I see is to set up another valve that's a dedicated drip system for watering trees versus the spraying of shrubbery and companion plants, but the amount of work and change to your existing system that this requres might not make this desireable to think about doing.

Matt, I have no interest in changing the soil to hold more water with clay amendments. I am spending all my time making it more organic to stop all non-organic treatments a few years down the road. The more organic the soil, the more water it will hold compared to the straight DG I have now anyway.

I like the way you use my name at the end of the post. It makes me feel like I'm being punished a little bit and I think I like it. Seriously though ; true your organics will improve water retention in your DG. What I'm suggesting is just an easy way to do above and beyond what organics can do. Going around your whole yard and ammending every palm with clay would be a huge job, but hitting a couple of the more water loving species is really easy to do. I bet if you had a half yard of clay sitting in a pile back there behind your greenhouse you'd use it. It's so easy, and once you mulch over it, it holds so much water that you can see why people would hate to have it as a native substrate in their yard. I was just thinking outside the box one day and decided to give this a try and low and behold I'm really happy with the results. I'm gonna bring you a bucket of heavy clay to the banquet.

[LJG]

Regarding your watering set up versus mine or Gary's:

I think your mixing your other plant material into this thread. We're talking about water wise palms, not how to negotiate your watering style with other companion plants. If you thought of your palms (or trees) as if they were on a dedicated valve then we're comparing apples to apples. I undertand what you've explained regarding the changes to your irrigation system and it sounds like you've gone above and beyond in an effort to be water-wise. The only other option I see is to set up another valve that's a dedicated drip system for watering trees versus the spraying of shrubbery and companion plants, but the amount of work and change to your existing system that this requres might not make this desireable to think about doing.

Yes and no. I guess my point is this. For most people they use sprayers. Walk around yards an you will see. Not many people do what you and Gary did and do drip on a landscape bigger then an acre. Even smaller landscapes use mostly use sparyers. So for those people to truly be water wise with palms, they will need to add direct watering to the palm in water-wise garden as spray heads waste water and really do not soak down deep unless they are on for a while. The secret to your watering is slowly releasing water over a few hours to really soak the rooting zone and soak deep. You can not do this with sprayers without massive waste. This is what I was referring to by "watering application".

Again, I agree with you that there are many palms you can plant that require mush less water and could look good. I disagree on a few that were listed however.

I like the way you use my name at the end of the post. It makes me feel like I'm being punished a little bit and I think I like it. Seriously though ; true your organics will improve water retention in your DG. What I'm suggesting is just an easy way to do above and beyond what organics can do. Going around your whole yard and ammending every palm with clay would be a huge job, but hitting a couple of the more water loving species is really easy to do. I bet if you had a half yard of clay sitting in a pile back there behind your greenhouse you'd use it. It's so easy, and once you mulch over it, it holds so much water that you can see why people would hate to have it as a native substrate in their yard. I was just thinking outside the box one day and decided to give this a try and low and behold I'm really happy with the results. I'm gonna bring you a bucket of heavy clay to the banquet.

Funny. This was by accident. I was creating another reply to separate the two and then just took what I typed to spell-check in Outlook and added to the current reply. I appreciate the advice but I like where I am heading. Yes I will use more water. But another thing I like about it is I can filter out the salts that build up easier my way too. Palms do not like our hard water. Over time palms in clay start to look bad from the heavy TDSs that build up in clay soil. After a few good rains my TDSs levels drop big time.

[MattyB]

TDS's, hmmmmm I didn't even think about that. So that dredge mud I've been getting from Coronado probably isn't a good idea? Seriously, I once got some fill that had lots of sea shells in it. Oh well, that was 3 years ago and all seems fine. Maybe I can shoot for some gas station discard next time.

[LJG]

TDS's, hmmmmm I didn't even think about that. So that dredge mud I've been getting from Coronado probably isn't a good idea? Seriously, I once got some fill that had lots of sea shells in it. Oh well, that was 3 years ago and all seems fine. Maybe I can shoot for some gas station discard next time.

Sea shells are fine. In fact some of the expensive potting soils use things like oyster shells to balance PH. I am talking about all the stuff found in hard water and synthetic ferts. Where I live if I dug a well the TDS are actually much higher then the tap water! This means if I wanted to do a well, I would need to also add RO filtration to clean it or I would burn many of my picky tropical plants.

[BS Man about Palms]

I use drip on my planted palms. I have for several years. I feel left out.

[Tyrone]

I think the real key to being water-wise with palms is to adjust your watering application. Most people use spray heads or bubblers. You can use drip like Gary does and target water loving palms without runoff or waste. To me this is being water-wise with palms.

I think you've hit it right on the head.

When it comes to waterwise debates, most of the emphasis goes on the species/type of plant. In reality the most important part is not the type of plant, but the method of applying water to the plant, and the amount of soil ammendments to help the soil hang onto every last drop of moisture.

This is a big thing in West Oz as it would be in So Cal with the summer dry style climate. Here our daily evap rate can get to 13mm (0.5 inch) plus a day in summer. Ultimately that means that if you were using spray irrigation, just to replace the amount lost from the soil every day you'd need to apply 13mm of water to an entire fullsun unmulched garden area, or 13 litres per sq metre of garden bed. Of course what comes out of a sprayhead may not even get to the soil, due to wind and low humidity evaporating it before it hits the soil, so you'd likely have to apply 15mm or 15L per sq metre a day just to replace moisture loss. This still leaves nothing left for the plant, it's not being given anything extra to grow. So in reality you will have to apply around 20mm or 20L per sq metre every day during the height of summer. If you have a garden area of 100 metres square (ie 10 X 10m) thats effectively 2000L (526 US gallons) a day. That's a lot of water and why sprayers don't really work that well, unless you like dry soil and a spike in humidity when they're on. If you're on sandy soil (like here in West Oz) it'll all drain away, if the water repellency issues have been dealt with, but if they haven't, the soil will be wet for 2mm down and the rest would have run off in little rivers all through the bed and onto your paving where the weeds will have a party.

Many people over here plant "waterwise" gardens. At least they think they have because they've planted all the "right" native waterwise plants such as Callistemons, Acacias, and the like, but they use sprayers to irrigate. For all the above reasons it's a waste of time and water, unless you ammend the soil drastically.

My thoughts are this. If you took the water being used to irrigate a "waterwise" native West Oz garden with shrub sprayers ( twice a week for 15 mins is the maximum allowable), then in a garden bed exactly the same size, you planted what may be considered by some a non waterwise species ie Dypsis leptocheilos, into a garden bed which had the works applied to the soil(heaps of compost, organics, manures) with a good 100mm of thick black humus mulch, you could use exactly the same amount of water as the sprayer irrigated native bed if you used state of the art dripper systems and get awesome results. The amount of water being used is the same, it's just being kept at the roots in the palm garden.

That's my thoughts, and I'm a firm believer it can be done. Of course with a drip system the 15 min rule doesn't apply, as the application is much less per minute, so a drip system must be left on for an hour or more to work.

I don't think we need to throw away our palms yet. If we get forced to do that, I'm moving in next door to Ari.

My two and a half cents.

Best regards

Tyrone

[ariscott]

You can still move next door to me, Tyrone....lol

Regards, Ari

[Tyrone]

We could join gardens and take over the place. Wouldn't that be cool. The Darwin Palmetum.

Best regards

Tyrone

[DoomsDave]

TDS's, hmmmmm I didn't even think about that. So that dredge mud I've been getting from Coronado probably isn't a good idea? Seriously, I once got some fill that had lots of sea shells in it. Oh well, that was 3 years ago and all seems fine. Maybe I can shoot for some gas station discard next time.

I'd bet that Coronado mud would be great, depending on what's in it. Does it have an evil stench, left in the dry air? If so , probably anaerobic decay, which, maybe could bespeak mucho organica . . . .