Tabebuia alba

[gilles06]

Bonjour,

I would like to know if tabebuia alba is a good candidate to a z9 mediterrean climate? I read it is from Brasil and North Argentina, so maybe it is not so tropical. Last but not least, where to find seeds?

Por favor Argentinos enviame semillas frescas!

Salut.

[Eric in Orlando]

Can you grow other Tabebuia species where you are? This one is native down in southern Brazil so it should have some hardiness. I would imagine hardiness would be similar to T. chrysotricha and T. umbellata, both which grown in similar regions. I'm not sure where to get seed. We have a couple young trees we got from Yucca Do Nursery. They have much bigger leaves than the others.

These 3 species are among many in Tabebuia which have now been placed into Handroanthus.

[gilles06]

Hi Eric,

I have actually tabebuia chrysotricha and impetiginosa but very small. I would like to try others hardy ones.

I don't know if they support summer drouhgt?

Salut.

[Eric in Orlando]

I forgot about T. impetiginosa. If you are growing those I would imagine T. alba would grow for you. Most Tabebuia are drought tolerant so this should be similar. A lot of the species flower during the dry season in habitat.

[mnorell]

I have the YuccaDo Tabebuia aff. alba as well, it's been in the ground here now for several years and I can say it is definitely hardier than T. chrysotricha. The latter has burned back to 1/4" wood the last several years with long 23-24F freezes, whereas T. alba, though it loses its leaves below about 27F, is completely stem- and tip-hardy down to at least 23F. I gave one to a friend who lives in a colder area on the edge of town and his burned back to large stems at about 20F. Mine hasn't bloomed yet but at least stands a chance to, since the dormant buds aren't killed every year as are those of T. chrysotricha. As Eric says, the leaves are much larger, they are also very rugose (corrugated) and most attractive. Mine gets too much shade at present but I suspect next year will get up above the surrounding vegetation and hopefully I will see some blooms in a year or two.

Eric, do you know if any of the summer-blooming Tabs (those that bloom alongside the foliage) are able to resprout from killing freezes and bloom the following summer? My problem here with this genus is that those March-blooming dormant buds get killed in a hard freeze and thus there's little hope for ever seeing blooms, even though they may be completely root-hardy. I haven't planted out impetiginosa though they supposedly have survived 18F in Santa Barbara with no ill effect...and the plant I bought as T. umbellata turned out to be chrysotricha...so I haven't been able to really test those two species yet here. Luckily Tecoma is a good genus here as sort of a substitution but I would still love to have some nice hardy Tabebuias that can actually bloom in this nasty 9a climate. I was successful at raising from seed two T. ochracea, which I suspect may be rather hardy, but they both inexplicably keeled over on me last summer.

[gilles06]

Thanks for this interesting report Mickael.

Salut.

[Eric in Orlando]

T. chrysotricha and T. umbellata seem similar in hardiness. Below around 24F they start to show damage. After 2 nights at 20F in 12/89, most T. chrysotricha went to the ground but resprouted. T. umbellata varied. Some had virtually no damge while some froze to the roots. Most had moderate canopy damage. But it took several years growth before they flowered again.

T. impetiginosa varied, too, but its such a variable tree. Its native from NW Mexico to Argentina so it would have a wide range of forms. Most grown in the nursery trade in FL are the pale pink forms that were formerly known as T. avellanedae. This is the hardier form from Mexico. Most around back in '89 had moderate canopy damage. A few were untouched.

Most of the summer blooming ones are tender. T. heterophylla (often mistakenly called T. pallida) is the one very common in SoFL but it is tender below 28F.

There is also T. heptaphylla, used to be lumped into T. impetiginosa. The flowers very from medium pink to purple. We have a pink and purple specimen and they flower heavy in late Sept. into Oct. then sporadically in Dec. and Jan. The pink form was growing in the ground during the 80s and it froze to the roots in '89. Since then it has grown back but only to about 15-20ft. The purple form we planted around 10 yrs ago and it is only about 10ft tall. Both hardy produce seed, the pink form never has. The purple form seedlings will bloom their 2nd year and only when 3ft tall. I want to get this one more widely distributed if it will ever seed. The pink tree is a virtual bee hive when it is flowering but still no seed.

[Peter]

What's the difference between T. alba and T. roseo-alba? And Tim, let me know if those pink and purple forms ever set seed!

[Eric in Orlando]

What's the difference between T. alba and T. roseo-alba? And Tim, let me know if those pink and purple forms ever set seed!

T. alba bears yellow flowers but gets its name as it gets a white coloring on the undersides of the leaves. T. roseoalba usually bears pure white flowers, sometimes with a pinkish blush and rarely with pink flowers. The leaf also only is comprised of 3 leaflets.

T. alba is now Handroanthus albus but T. roseoalba has remained in Tabebuia.

[Peter]

Thanks Eric. I've got a small roseo-alba in a 1g pot which I plan on putting in the ground when it gets a little bigger, and I know of several others in Socal trying it. So far so good.

[mnorell]

Eric, have you tried to key out that YuccaDo "T. aff. alba"? YuccaDo said this was collected on the top of the coldest mountain in Sao Paulo province...which would limit the possible species somewhat. The leaves look different than anything I've been able to find in photos on the web or in print, including those shown in Lorenzi's book "Brazilian Trees" for this or any other Tabebuia (T. alba is shown in v1, on p. 60).

Lorenzi seems not to have accepted the separation of these several Tabebuia species into Handroanthus. He lists Handroanthus as an unaccepted synonym. He also keeps T. impetiginosa and T. avellanedae separate, and gives the range of T. impetiginosa no further south than Sao Paulo...while the paler T. avellanedae is common in the colder Paraná and Rio Grande do Sul areas. T. umbellata and also T. ochracea are listed as being native to the colder southern regions as well, and I think the latter certainly has decent hardiness, as I've seen healthy, flowering and fruiting older trees at the Los Angeles Arboretum in Arcadia, a location that certainly has seen 20s F with some regularity over the years. A very pretty tree, larger and more robust, and with a more intense golden-yellow flower color than the slightly pallid T. umbellata.

[Eric in Orlando]

No I've never tried to key it out so just going by the YD name!

Dr. Lorenzi was here a few years ago. When I took him around he wanted to see our Tabs. When I showed him the various T. impetiginosa he could ID them on the spot as to other species which some consider synonyms now. The common form that is the majority of what is grown/sold in FL he Id'ed as T. avellanedae and the fall blooming ones as T. heptaphylla. One specimen of T. impetiginosa we have that has a slightly different leaf and a deeper pink color he said was T. paluensis. We also have 2 specimens of T. impetiginosa 'Lake Placid'. The seed source was a tree down by Lake Placid,FL. It was a large tree growing on a hill and bore purple flowers. It was a spectacular blooming specimen and was highly visible on that hill. I believe the tree was lost in 2004 from Hurricane Charley. Ours haven't flowered yet but they have muvh larger leaves than the "usual" T. impetiginosa. Dr. Lorenzi said this was the "true" T. impetiginosa. So I'm thinking this is probably that larger form that gets pretty big and that is used for timber. He was also rather suprised by our T. impetiginosa x chrysotricha. He said he had never seen a hybrid. Since then I know T. impetiginosa x umbellata has been made and we were given a small T. chrysotricha x umbellata.

I'm still waiting for our T. rosea to flower. This one has giant leaves.

These are what we are growing;

Handroanthus albus

chrysanthus

chrysotrichus

heptaphyllus

impetiginosus (avellanedae and paluensis forms)

impetiginosus 'Alba'

impetiginosus 'Lake Placid'

impetiginosus 'Naples White'

umbellatus

chrysotrichus x umbellatus

impetiginosus x chrysotrichus

Tabebuia aurea

bahamensis

heterophylla

rosea

roseoalba

Cybistax antisyphilitica

[mnorell]

Thanks, Eric, for the great amount of info! Things seem so confused and the info on the trees grown as impetiginosa is wonderful to have. I've seen hybrids in California in years past, i think they have one or more at either the L.A. Arboretum or the Huntington. One of the T. impetiginosa at the L.A. Arboretum may be the large form you mention, it is absolutely huge. Much larger than most forms you see planted around in Southern California. It seems to me many of those sold and planted in SoCal before I moved away a few years ago are a smaller, slower form, and have the propensity for throwing a fall bloom-flush (though they also bloom in spring), so perhaps those are actually T. heptaphylla? It seems to me there's natural variability in these from seed to further complicate matters...and I assume those commonly sold in the Florida trade are the smaller sorts, as they would fit in with more typical residential landscape applications?

Do you (or anyone) know what happened to Menninger's garden in Stuart? He had so many rare flowering trees there and I wonder if any of them survive. He didn't die that long ago so I'm hoping either a descendant or someone else has preserved the place. If so I'm sure it has many beautiful Tabs that are not in general cultivation.

[mppalms]

I'm also growing the YD Tabebuia aff. alba. It does great through my relatively-mild winters and grows from late spring through mid-autumn for me. It loses its leaves briefly in late spring. I have seen no flowers, but I love the large leaves.

Jason

[Eric in Orlando]

Thats a good question, I don't know what happened to Menningers. We have his books in the library and they are still valuable references.

Its interesting that T. umbellata is extremely common in the older neighborhoods of Orlando and Winter Park and very uncommon elsewhere in FL and hardly any nurseries grow it nowdays. It was originally brought into Orlando (and maybe cultivation) by Mulford Foster (bromeliad explorer) who lived in Orlando and used to have a nursery downtown. Martin Andersen, the owner and publisher of the Orlando Sentinel at the time (the local fishwrap) used to distribute hundreds of these trees every spring for free to help beautify Orlando. Roughly from maybe the late 1930s into the 60s?S o now they are a very common sight in the older neighborhoods.

Always wondered about Peltophorum dubium, very common around Orlando but not elsewhere. Being native from Brazil to Argentina and Uruguay I wonder if Foster was responsible for introducing this tree to the Orlando area, also. Also Pterogyne nitens. Its a much rarer tree than the Tab and Pelt but some specimens exist in the older areas but never seen it elsewhere in FL.

[Rafael]

Anyone sucessfully growing this one?

My seedling is taking off 

[Matthew92]

Very interesting thread. I still hope to find a Tabebuia (Handroanthus) that could have a fighting chance in a zone 8b/9a Southeast US climate. Hadn't really heard of T. alba before. Not much info comes up for it on a web search. That one and T. ochracea I'd be curious to try. And I still wonder if there are T. umbellata or even impetiginosa with hardy genetics that could have a decent chance in such a climate as well.

I noticed that the Yucca Do nursery seems to have closed some time ago. I wonder how one would go about getting a "Tabebuia aff. alba" from the cold hardy source as mentioned earlier in the thread. Did yours survive @mnorell?

Here's also some interesting notes on trialing various Tabebuia (Handroanthus) in North FL (8b/9a). Handroanthus - Gardening in the Coastal Southeast (southeastgarden.com)

Edited January 22, 2021 by Matthew92

[Silas_Sancona]

28 minutes ago, Matthew92 said:

Very interesting thread. I still hope to find a Tabebuia (Handroanthus) that could have a fighting chance in a zone 8b/9a Southeast US climate. Hadn't really heard of T. alba before. Not much info comes up for it on a web search. That one and T. ochracea I'd be curious to try. And I still wonder if there are T. umbellata or even impetiginosa with hardy genetics that could have a decent chance in such a climate as well.

I noticed that the Yucca Do nursery seems to have closed some time ago. I wonder how one would go about getting a "Tabebuia aff. alba" from the cold hardy source as mentioned earlier in the thread. Did yours survive @mnorell?

Here's also some interesting notes on trialing various Tabebuia (Handroanthus) in North FL (8b/9a). Handroanthus - Gardening in the Coastal Southeast (southeastgarden.com)

T/H. umbellata and/ or chrysantha ( harder to find sp. from Sonora ) would be the hardiest/ most likely to survive borderline 8B/9A. T/H. impetiginosa would be the next hardiest, esp. considering it's distribution ( Cen. Sonora, MEX. to N. Argentina ).. Survives in Tucson, inc. parts of town that are currently listed as 9A. Seed of those specimens were supposedly originally collected in/near Alamos, Sonora from what i've been told. T/H. chrysotricha, which resembles umbellata and chrysantha to most people, is also quite hardy, though i don't think even mature trees would withstand constant 8B lows.

Thinking T. ochracea is a touch more tender than chrysotricha but not certain. Both look quite similar and it's totally possible both were passed around miss labeled in the past. T/H. ochracea flowers later than most other Tabs. Supposedly mid/late spring, while the other, common gold-flowered species flower more late winter-mid spring, -depending on location of course-.


 

[mnorell]

14 hours ago, Matthew92 said:

Very interesting thread. I still hope to find a Tabebuia (Handroanthus) that could have a fighting chance in a zone 8b/9a Southeast US climate. Hadn't really heard of T. alba before. Not much info comes up for it on a web search. That one and T. ochracea I'd be curious to try. And I still wonder if there are T. umbellata or even impetiginosa with hardy genetics that could have a decent chance in such a climate as well.

I noticed that the Yucca Do nursery seems to have closed some time ago. I wonder how one would go about getting a "Tabebuia aff. alba" from the cold hardy source as mentioned earlier in the thread. Did yours survive @mnorell?

Here's also some interesting notes on trialing various Tabebuia (Handroanthus) in North FL (8b/9a). Handroanthus - Gardening in the Coastal Southeast (southeastgarden.com)

That YuccaDo Tabebuia was a neat tree and I had such high hopes for it as I hadn't imagined any Tabebuia would survive a typical Natchez winter. It came back year after year, but grew slowly and was overtaken by cherry-laurels, bamboo, etc. that shaded it out to the point it had so little input and finally faded away. I had been scared to move it and really didn't have a sunnier spot on that lot. Now I think there's no hope of getting another unless someone could track down another customer who had one that has survived to present and is making seed. It had a really interesting and unusual leaf-texture.  That nursery was much loved in SE Texas, and was associated with a trial/botanical garden, I think on an adjacent/nearby property called Peckerwood Garden, and I think that is still in existence and maybe there's a chance they might have the tree or possibly even seedlings for sale. You might call them, or ask around on some Texas (Houston area)-relevant plant forums and someone might answer a post saying "I have one!")

I had one T. chrysotricha that I planted up against a south-facing fence and it would get knocked back but one warm winter it actually threw a bloom. Kind of a sad-looking single sprig 6' tall with one head of flowers. Gone now, killed by the 2018 13F I think. I think if you contact Eric Schmidt at Leu Gardens in Orlando, he might be able to get you some seed for T. umbellata as they have some of them growing there; or point you to a nursery that grows them. They should be coming into bloom shortly, in the next month or two.

[necturus]

Unfortunately, I do not think Peckerwood has the Tabebuia anymore. I've been there a number of times over the years, never seen it on the property or in their nursery.

I was lucky to buy plants from YuccaDo before they closed down, but I think this one was available before then. YuccaDo also sold some plants with very optimistic cold tolerance info. Ficus virens, for example, was sold as a potential 8b/9a strangler Ficus, but that hasn't panned out. 

[mnorell]

I bought one of those Ficus virens also for my Natchez garden. Was I surprised when, upon further research (and confirmed after the first winter) I saw that it is actually one of the more tender Ficus. I had several other species that did a better job at coming back every year (F. natalensis, F. macrophylla, et al.). The 2018 winter in Natchez (13F) killed even the hardier ones, though. I don't know why they made such a stink about it being a hardy big Ficus tree. But the Tabebuia "aff. alba," I remember they said they collected it at one of the higher mountain areas around Sao Paulo. And it did survive winters in the 20s, and if killed back (I think this happened below about 20-23F) it came back dutifully. Perhaps if it had managed to get a thicker trunk it would have proved hardier. Bummer that they don't have it at Peckerwood...but someone must have one, question is tracking it down, you'd have to do a lot of questioning or prowl all the gardening message boards.

[Peter]

With regard to Yuccado Nursery, did anyone else get the unidentified Pseudobombax collected in Bolivia, or possibly Brazil?  I put mine in the ground about 6-7 years ago and it's grown a whopping 3" a year but is otherwise healthy-friends who got it at the same time all lost theirs.  Sorry to hijack the thread...