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Freeze-Pruf Big Disappointment


Jim in Los Altos

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Dr. Dave Francko attempted to post on this thread, but for whatever reason, he has not been able to do so. He has asked me to post his response on his behalf:

It is a fact that for some high-water content tropicals, we were able to demonstrate that FreezePruf lowered the first damage and mortality temperatures by as much as 9.4 F - - the best example of this is the common peace lily Spathyphyllum, which literally could be taken down to the low-to-mid 20s for up to 2 hours without significant damage. But we also report that for lower-water-content trees (e.g., citrus), the effects on leaves and flowers were more on the order of 2 to 3 F.

FOR MOST PLANTS TESTED, INCLULDING MANY PALMS and BANANAS, the effective drop in the first damage temperature and the mortality temperature was in the middle of the 2 – 9F range - - on the order of 4 to 6 F.

Very Sincerely,

Dave Francko"

JohnCO5b,

This quote from Mr Francko seems to be completely opposite from what you are saying about drought conditions and lowering water content to protect plants from freeze damage? As he states that the best result acheived was 9.4 F, and this was with the highest water content plants? What am I missing?

Drought mode reduces water in cells, raising ratio of carbs and fats that act like antifreeze, lowering temperature at which ice crystal formation begins. Cell walls are thicker and more elastic in drought mode, and not as easily ruptured by blades of lethal ice from inside. This was noticed in the arid west, where many plants routinely survive temperatures almost uniformly fatal in the east, particularly in yucca and palms, and became a focus of lab study to duplicate in wetter conditions. Some plants may be exceptions; conifers, and some broad leaf evergreens like holly need more winter moisture during deep cold events.

Freeze pruf attempts to chemically induce drought simulation in plants to mimic the benefit of drought mode.

Many assumptions have been made, and some are simply wrong. Only test and trial can verify or refute assumptions. Florida is vastly different than New Mexico or Colorado. Our USDA Zone 5 is nothing like the Ohio Zone 5, just as your Zone 8 is nothing like Alaska's Zone 8. For that reason, Sunset developed another zone system, based on more than just annual low winter temperature. If you are gardening with experimental things for your zone and climate, you are going where few have gone before.

Point is, we are just beginning to learn the possibilities of this, and to understand how things work. Some of the assumptions we thought, aren't true. If you are pushing zone planting in your location, you are engaged in some important work, and you should at the very least, keep a journal. This experience with Freeze-pruf is part of that learning process. Maybe it works, and maybe not. Maybe we have to learn more about application of it.

This drought thing goes against everything I have been told as a boy growing up here, in Florida at least. The prevailing wisdom, old wifes tale anyway, is to irrigate heavily before a freeze, to increase moisture before a cold snap freezing event, rather than having less water in the plants cells. At least I assumed that was their reasoning to have more water in the plants (cells)? But like I say, that might be an old wifes tale,I'm just going from what I have been told by old timers , not scientists !

Are you saying that the old timers are completely wrong regarding heavily irrigating just before cold/freeze snaps. That science has determined that is exactly the opposite of what really should be done? Again I am just a little confused by your response? thanks

Edited by gsn

Scott

Titusville, FL

1/2 mile from the Indian River

USDA Zone COLD

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Walt-thanks for showing me your cold protection setup! I thinks its both amusing and ironic that we are talking about that in this thread- it still seems the most important part of zone pushing.

One of the reasons that I have never done any heating is that I am totally ignorant about where to put the lights, and which xmas lights (they seem easiest and cheapest to use? but maybe not enough heat?) you could use. I have a bunch of the old fashioned large outdoor lights-you think I could use those? Or are the small ones better? The big question I have is where to use them on the palm. You had heating cables in the picture-those are just the soil heating cables that growers use in grhouses? Do you always put the lights on the outside of the innermost layer of blanket? What part of the palm can/should any of the lights touch? What about rain/snow? Does the where the light plugs into the extension cord have to be tucked up into the weed block? Am I going to start a fire?? lol

Sorry Jim if this is hijacking your thread, I can start a new one, but in all honesty, this seems more relevant to protecting palms....

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I hope those of you who followed the instructions and who where left bitterly disappointed, will be taking up the "100% Satisfaction Guaranteed" refund offer.

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post-704-1261086288_thumb.jpg

T fortunei under protection during -17F cold event

Fountain, Colorado USDA Zone 5b

With regard to T fortunei.

The palm is subject of much disagreement. Exact origin isn't even that well documented.

The Himalayan orogeny lifted and separated the races of takil, nainital, fortunei and possibly nanus and wagnerianus by the gorges of Chang, Mekong, Irrawaddy and Brahmaputra rivers. Undocumented collection and distribution of seed everywhere has further confused definition of species, with exceptions of trunkless nanus, and dwarf wagnerianus. Genetic studies demonstrated closeness of these species, or races.

In efforts to understand T fortunei, which I call the whole group, one observation became a reliable indicator.

Alpine plants where combination of slope, frost and freeze heave and thaw occur often have a genetic rooting trait so the root grows sideways before turning downward. This more quickly anchors a plant to a slope that slips, with roots in stable soil. Trachycarpus appear to be an alpine, freeze stimulated evolution and not a tropical, rain induced, mud shift stimulated evolution.

If Trachycarpus group is adapting to freeze and frost heave slopes in the wild, due to the Himalayan orogeny, then a sideways rooting trait may be an indicator of more cold tolerant genes, stemming from location at higher altitude.

I documented thousands of T fortunei with varying degrees of sideways growth creep. On some it is almost absent, and in others markedly profound. Those specimens of my trials that considently withstand subzero 0F cold with little or no damage all had a significant SFH trait.

In the video linked above, illustrations and photographs of the SFH trait are shown and explained.

I protect the palms when air temperature is forecast to fall below 0F. Protection includes a canvas cover, and C-7 lights on the ground. It has been generally unnecessary to do any more, although in the last subzero 0F event, that fell in three consecutive nights to lows of -17F, -10F and -6F, additional insulated was added.

With regard to Freeze-pruf, I learned the product was tested at university facilities, but not apparently field tested by growers, nor was data subject to rigorous peer review. Nature of it was kept as proprietary science, possibly for marketing purposes. That tosses up all kinds of red flags for me.

I suspect the answers to cold tolerance remains more genetic than anything, and for ornamental plants without food value, interest is probably inadequate for much pursuit of genetic study and manipulative development.

A science oriented transect of the eastern Himalaya, from Thaikill and the Kumaon range, across the Brahmaputra, Irrawaddy, Mekong and Chang gorges, could yield some important data about the T fortunei group, possibly useful in studies in genetic evolution.

Edited by JohnCO5b
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Walt-thanks for showing me your cold protection setup! I thinks its both amusing and ironic that we are talking about that in this thread- it still seems the most important part of zone pushing.

One of the reasons that I have never done any heating is that I am totally ignorant about where to put the lights, and which xmas lights (they seem easiest and cheapest to use? but maybe not enough heat?) you could use. I have a bunch of the old fashioned large outdoor lights-you think I could use those? Or are the small ones better? The big question I have is where to use them on the palm. You had heating cables in the picture-those are just the soil heating cables that growers use in grhouses? Do you always put the lights on the outside of the innermost layer of blanket? What part of the palm can/should any of the lights touch? What about rain/snow? Does the where the light plugs into the extension cord have to be tucked up into the weed block? Am I going to start a fire?? lol

Sorry Jim if this is hijacking your thread, I can start a new one, but in all honesty, this seems more relevant to protecting palms....

Kahili: No, I don't want to hijack this thread. I will send you a PM either later today or tomorrow and try to answer some of your cold protection questions.

If you have not already done so, you may want to take a quick peek at this one Webshots album. I have some photos in it showing some of my cold protection: http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/album/60953503axSuEc

Mad about palms

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Dr. Dave Francko attempted to post on this thread, but for whatever reason, he has not been able to do so. He has asked me to post his response on his behalf:

It is a fact that for some high-water content tropicals, we were able to demonstrate that FreezePruf lowered the first damage and mortality temperatures by as much as 9.4 F - - the best example of this is the common peace lily Spathyphyllum, which literally could be taken down to the low-to-mid 20s for up to 2 hours without significant damage. But we also report that for lower-water-content trees (e.g., citrus), the effects on leaves and flowers were more on the order of 2 to 3 F.

FOR MOST PLANTS TESTED, INCLULDING MANY PALMS and BANANAS, the effective drop in the first damage temperature and the mortality temperature was in the middle of the 2 – 9F range - - on the order of 4 to 6 F.

Very Sincerely,

Dave Francko"

JohnCO5b,

This quote from Mr Francko seems to be completely opposite from what you are saying about drought conditions and lowering water content to protect plants from freeze damage? As he states that the best result acheived was 9.4 F, and this was with the highest water content plants? What am I missing?

Drought mode reduces water in cells, raising ratio of carbs and fats that act like antifreeze, lowering temperature at which ice crystal formation begins. Cell walls are thicker and more elastic in drought mode, and not as easily ruptured by blades of lethal ice from inside. This was noticed in the arid west, where many plants routinely survive temperatures almost uniformly fatal in the east, particularly in yucca and palms, and became a focus of lab study to duplicate in wetter conditions. Some plants may be exceptions; conifers, and some broad leaf evergreens like holly need more winter moisture during deep cold events.

Freeze pruf attempts to chemically induce drought simulation in plants to mimic the benefit of drought mode.

Many assumptions have been made, and some are simply wrong. Only test and trial can verify or refute assumptions. Florida is vastly different than New Mexico or Colorado. Our USDA Zone 5 is nothing like the Ohio Zone 5, just as your Zone 8 is nothing like Alaska's Zone 8. For that reason, Sunset developed another zone system, based on more than just annual low winter temperature. If you are gardening with experimental things for your zone and climate, you are going where few have gone before.

Point is, we are just beginning to learn the possibilities of this, and to understand how things work. Some of the assumptions we thought, aren't true. If you are pushing zone planting in your location, you are engaged in some important work, and you should at the very least, keep a journal. This experience with Freeze-pruf is part of that learning process. Maybe it works, and maybe not. Maybe we have to learn more about application of it.

This drought thing goes against everything I have been told as a boy growing up here, in Florida at least. The prevailing wisdom, old wifes tale anyway, is to irrigate heavily before a freeze, to increase moisture before a cold snap freezing event, rather than having less water in the plants cells. At least I assumed that was their reasoning to have more water in the plants (cells)? But like I say, that might be an old wifes tale,I'm just going from what I have been told by old timers , not scientists !

Are you saying that the old timers are completely wrong regarding heavily irrigating just before cold/freeze snaps. That science has determined that is exactly the opposite of what really should be done? Again I am just a little confused by your response? thanks

Please note Dave used the term "high-water content tropicals" meaning plants that are water sponges. In those plants, Freeze-pruf mimicked drought mode by fooling plant chemistry so lethal ice crystal formation in cells occurred as if the plant was in drought mode, when it was not. Dave and I are in agreement on all of this, because both our series of tests confirmed the observation. Please review carefully what we wrote.

Drought mode is not drought stress. Mode is lower water content in cells. For palms, yucca and cacti, lethal ice crystal formation begins at temperatures in a range between 2F and 9F lower than for such plants in a high water content mode. For high water content tropicals, tendency is toward the top figure, and for low water content plants, toward the bottom figure. Palms are somewhere in the middle.

I am an old timer from the school of winter water, and this caught me by surprise too. For certain plants, winter water, or cold spell water is more beneficial. For others it is not. Trachycarpus fortunei and Rhapidophyllum hystrix increase resistance to lethal freeze by several degrees F when they are relatively dry during a period of air temperature in the normal lethal freeze range. Growers who keep container plants dry during such cold periods report a significant reduction in spear pull and loss in plants kept dry, as opposed to those in a cold event wet. Others who grow other palm species report similar observations.

If the irrigation practice in Florida is by sprinkler, I understand that method is meant to protect plants from freeze by production of a layer of insulating ice around leaves, fruit and flowers, to keep them right at 32F when air temperature drops measurably or significantly below that. It is not to put water into plants, so much as to put water ice on them as insulation. That is a practice in Florida during winter, and is done here in spring when subfreezing temperature threatens flowers in fruit orchards; apples, cherries, peaches etc. It is effective if period of freeze and depth of temperature is not to low, like upper twenties.

Edited by JohnCO5b
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post-704-1261151016_thumb.jpg

T fortunei after the consecutive -17F, -10F, -6F event,

protected by canvas cover and C-7 lights on the ground.

This was grown from an SFH-S factor seedling.

Fountain, Colorado USDA Zone 5b

First, we understand Freeze-pruf functions as a topical and systemic mimicry of chemistry of plants in a drought mode, to lower temperature at which lethal ice crystal formation in cells normally begins.

Greatest reported temperature shift of Freeze-pruf protection, 9.4F was reported in high water-content tropicals, like Spathyphyllum, not in plants with high water content. For low water-content plants, citrus for example, protection was at the low end of the range, about 2F. Palms ranged in the middle, generally between 3F and 7F.

Protection of 9F in high water content tropicals was lowered from freezing 32F to the low twenties. For moderate water tropicals like palms, protection range was smaller, and smaller at colder temperatures. For example, the product might provide 5F protection for a Phoenix palm when a low into the teens is expected, but only 2F for a Windmill palm where a low into lower single digits is expected. Again, this performance was for these plants in a normal water mode, not in a drought mode.

Freeze-pruf chemically mimicks a drought mode in high-water content tropicals, and lower water content tropicals when they are not in a drought mode. I don't know anything about response of high water content tropicals of any kind because I never worked with them. Palms are not high water content tropicals.

We know some palms increase resistance to lethal freeze by several degrees when kept in a drought mode. Drought mode is simply less water in cells. This is not drought stress, where a plant begins to show dessication of tissue from lack of water.

The practice of irrigation before a cold snap in Florida is not to protect plants by increase of water in tissues, but to form a layer of insulating ice to protect leaves, flowers and fruit from air temperature that may drop into the twenties, keeping them at or close to 32F. That practice in winter areas where temperature falls into teens or lower is useless. It is done in the Grand Junction area of Colorado in April, to protect flowers of fruit trees from exposure to lethal freeze, and will only limit damage, not altogether prevent it. Some citrus growers use smudge pots for the same reason.

I apparently have some difficulty in explanation of this, and some apparently lead to some misunderstanding about Freeze-pruf, and knowledge about cold tolerance in many plants.

However, Freeze-pruf was apparently not field tested widely enough, and results not rigorously peer reviewed, and treated more as proprietary science, apparently for the purpose of marketing, rather than comprehension of a best practice. That concerns me. Dave is a great fellow and I really don't want to see his efforts and work lessened or compromised because of a product failure.

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The practice of irrigation before a cold snap in Florida is not to protect plants by increase of water in tissues, but to form a layer of insulating ice to protect leaves, flowers and fruit from air temperature that may drop into the twenties, keeping them at or close to 32F. That practice in winter areas where temperature falls into teens or lower is useless. It is done in the Grand Junction area of Colorado in April, to protect flowers of fruit trees from exposure to lethal freeze, and will only limit damage, not altogether prevent it. Some citrus growers use smudge pots for the same reason.

I was NOT referring to the practice of continually irrigating the plants durning a freeze. I am aware that this is done , because continually producing ice results in heat being formed, theorectically keeping the plant tissue at or just above 32F. What I was referring to was the practice of thoughly irrigating the GROUND

(not plant tissue, leaves, stems,fruit seeds,flowers) BEFORE a freeze event to protect the plant. I am aware of icing plants(overhead continous irrigation ) through a freeze event, as fern and strawberry growers do it durning freeze events here, but that was NOT what I was talking about!

Drought mode is not drought stress. Mode is lower water content in cells.

I do have one final question...

If there is a difference between drought MODE and drought STRESS, where is that line drawn? And is that the possible reason that Jim in Los Altos had more damage than he felt he would have had, if he had NOT used the product. What I am saying is it possible that the Freeze-Pruf went past drought mode and caused the plants to drought stress, thereby increasing dessication,damage, and burn?

Sorry Jim if this is hijacking your thread, I can start a new one, but in all honesty, this seems more relevant to protecting palms....

kahilli

I beleive you are right, old school protection(covering) seems to be the safest ,most effective way, to get through a cold event, at least at this time ! :)

Edited by gsn

Scott

Titusville, FL

1/2 mile from the Indian River

USDA Zone COLD

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post-704-1261182109_thumb.jpg

T fortunei in late November snow, following a few single digit

low temperatures. Fountain, Colorado USDA Zone 5b

I was NOT referring to the practice of continually irrigating the plants durning a freeze. I am aware that this is done , because continually producing ice results in heat being formed, theorectically keeping the plant tissue at or just above 32F. What I was referring to was the practice of thoughly irrigating the GROUND

(not plant tissue, leaves, stems,fruit seeds,flowers) BEFORE a freeze event to protect the plant. I am aware of icing plants(overhead continous irrigation ) through a freeze event, as fern and strawberry growers do it durning freeze events here, but that was NOT what I was talking about!

Drought mode is not drought stress. Mode is lower water content in cells.

I do have one final question...

If there is a difference between drought MODE and drought STRESS, where is that line drawn? And is that the possible reason that Jim in Los Altos had more damage than he felt he would have had, if he had NOT used the product. What I am saying is it possible that the Freeze-Pruf went past drought mode and caused the plants to drought stress, thereby increasing dessication,damage, and burn?

Regarding irrigation, I wanted to be sure of the meaning and method. Thank you for helping clarify that. I believe for some plants, and probably high water content tropicals and some perennial and annuals, ground irrigation may be more beneficial during a cold period. It certainly is necessary in my location for conifers, in particular Taxodiaceae and Cupressaceae. Most palms are moderate to low water content plants, more like yucca than Spathyphyllum for example. They do better in a period of potential lethal freeze with drought mode water content, meaning less water in cells. Freeze-pruf attempts to mimic that in locations where drought mode may not be feasible, due to high volumetric moisture content in soil.

The line is going to vary due to location and plant. When a plant becomes drought stressed, you can see a physical collapse of the plant through wilting, loss of structural tension. Best I can say is pay attention, which you already do, otherwise you would be at Walmart instead of here! (LOL)

In consideration of Jim's experience, I assume his location has high volumetric soil moisture, in which case application of Freeze-pruf mimics drought mode without actually putting the plant into it. I don't see a significant risk of the product pushing a plant to drought stress, because the water content in cells is already there. Time, keen observation, journal notes, good discussion, and peer review will help determine how that works.

Sorry Jim if this is hijacking your thread, I can start a new one, but in all honesty, this seems more relevant to protecting palms....[/b]

I believe you are right, old school protection(covering) seems to be the safest ,most effective way, to get through a cold event, at least at this time ! :)

Given the early observations, that is probably prudent. Cost of the product is one thing, but loss of a plant you spent years nurturing through hard winter events because the product didn't meet expectations is heartbreaking. I would be more than angry about that. I also wonder if the mass produced formula is the same as used in the lab and field tests, or if some "manager" along the way decided on a short cut that made the product perform less adequately than the lab and field results? I believe we all have experienced that kind of "management" that shortchanges our work in order to better pad a bottom line.

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Sadly, none of what Dave Francko states are possible reasons for the product failure in my case. I followed the instructions very carefully and applied the product on the tops and bottoms of all leaves and stems at an appropriate temperature (52F) two days before the freeze on exceptionally healthy plants. The temperature dropped to 27.5F by 6AM but hadn't gone below 32F until after 1AM.

The most interesting observation that I made was with a completely untreated heliconia very near a thoroughly treated one. The untreated one was completely exposed and the treated one had 50% canopy (eaves of roof). The treated one had slightly more damage (75% of leaf area of exposed leaves) than the untreated one nearby (50% leaf burn). As I mentioned in my original post, my five year old (12 foot tall) Roystonea borinquena has endured every winter since I planted it as a liner without any protection and without any damage including a low of 26.5F in 2007. This recent freeze of 27.5F left it with approximately 40% leaf burn despite being Freeze-Pruf "protected". Go figure.

I spent $99.00 on two gallons, bought a new $150.00 sprayer just for this purpose, and spent a two days spraying plants to no avail. I would have been much better off using that time simply draping sheets over those sensitive plants and uncovering them the next morning. That method actually works quite well for me and it's only necessary once every few winters.

Jim, as I previously posted I had similar conditions as you did. We also had temps of 32 at about 1am and it dropped to a low of 26.6 as the sun rose. It quickly warmed up to the 50's by 11am. I had severe damage. For instance, I sprayed the crap out of my mangos and critics. They were completely defoliated. I saw other mangos and citrics in the neighborhood that had the exact same damage with NO protection of any kind. I sprayed my bunchosia argentea and it has been completely defoliated as well as having some of the branches damaged. My Jacaranda chelonia were heavily sprayed, two times. They not only got defoliated, the trunks are leaking sap like the cells inside exploded. No doubt they will not make it.

The only other sensitive palms that survived were my Dypsis decaryi and Ravenea rivularis. Only because they were wrapped in double layers of heavy frost cloth and I hung a 40w light bulb in the middle of them.

I also bought 2 gallons of Freeze-Pruf and still have a gallon left that I will toss in the garbage. Like you, I have yet to hear any real explanation as to why a product that I bought in good faith did nothing to protect my tropical plants as promised.

Houston, Texas

29.8649°N - 95.6521°W

Elevation 114.8 ft

Sunset zone 28

USDA zone 9a

Average maximum high temperature 93.60 F

Average maximum low temperature 45.20 F

The annual average precipitation is 53.34 Inches

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Well here is Dr. Francko's response for any that are interested http://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/msg/1261122480.html

And John, since I interacted with you on this thread, were you referring to me when you said on your post in the above thread :

"I had some difficulty on Palm Talk, explaining this. It seems some need as much help with reading skills as with gardening skills. Dave was misquoted and misunderstood, I was misquoted and misunderstood, and some of that apparently lead to some of the misunderstanding about Freeze-pruf, and knowledge about cold tolerance in many plants."

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Well here is Dr. Francko's response for any that are interested http://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/msg/1261122480.html

And John, since I interacted with you on this thread, were you referring to me when you said on your post in the above thread :

"I had some difficulty on Palm Talk, explaining this. It seems some need as much help with reading skills as with gardening skills. Dave was misquoted and misunderstood, I was misquoted and misunderstood, and some of that apparently lead to some of the misunderstanding about Freeze-pruf, and knowledge about cold tolerance in many plants."

I was referring to the whole frustration of Dave's points being lost by glance over the words UP TO, his other remarks, my own poor effort to cram many years of test, trial and observation into one reply in a forum where my work is not well known... There has been a ton of poor reading, wild speculation and more here and the forum where you extracted the quote above (from context), all the way around- myself included. I apologise for my frustration.

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Well here is Dr. Francko's response for any that are interested http://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/msg/1261122480.html

And John, since I interacted with you on this thread, were you referring to me when you said on your post in the above thread :

"I had some difficulty on Palm Talk, explaining this. It seems some need as much help with reading skills as with gardening skills. Dave was misquoted and misunderstood, I was misquoted and misunderstood, and some of that apparently lead to some of the misunderstanding about Freeze-pruf, and knowledge about cold tolerance in many plants."

I read it earlier and I hope he will have time to ready my reply. Trust me, I probably wish this product had worked for me as badly as Dr. Francko does. Sadly enough the clams Dr. Francko made did not come close to being reality for my plants. He certainly has lost me as a future customer.

Houston, Texas

29.8649°N - 95.6521°W

Elevation 114.8 ft

Sunset zone 28

USDA zone 9a

Average maximum high temperature 93.60 F

Average maximum low temperature 45.20 F

The annual average precipitation is 53.34 Inches

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Sadly, none of what Dave Francko states are possible reasons for the product failure in my case. I followed the instructions very carefully and applied the product on the tops and bottoms of all leaves and stems at an appropriate temperature (52F) two days before the freeze on exceptionally healthy plants. The temperature dropped to 27.5F by 6AM but hadn't gone below 32F until after 1AM.

The most interesting observation that I made was with a completely untreated heliconia very near a thoroughly treated one. The untreated one was completely exposed and the treated one had 50% canopy (eaves of roof). The treated one had slightly more damage (75% of leaf area of exposed leaves) than the untreated one nearby (50% leaf burn). As I mentioned in my original post, my five year old (12 foot tall) Roystonea borinquena has endured every winter since I planted it as a liner without any protection and without any damage including a low of 26.5F in 2007. This recent freeze of 27.5F left it with approximately 40% leaf burn despite being Freeze-Pruf "protected". Go figure.

I spent $99.00 on two gallons, bought a new $150.00 sprayer just for this purpose, and spent a two days spraying plants to no avail. I would have been much better off using that time simply draping sheets over those sensitive plants and uncovering them the next morning. That method actually works quite well for me and it's only necessary once every few winters.

Jim, as I previously posted I had similar conditions as you did. We also had temps of 32 at about 1am and it dropped to a low of 26.6 as the sun rose. It quickly warmed up to the 50's by 11am. I had severe damage. For instance, I sprayed the crap out of my mangos and critics. They were completely defoliated. I saw other mangos and citrics in the neighborhood that had the exact same damage with NO protection of any kind. I sprayed my bunchosia argentea and it has been completely defoliated as well as having some of the branches damaged. My Jacaranda chelonia were heavily sprayed, two times. They not only got defoliated, the trunks are leaking sap like the cells inside exploded. No doubt they will not make it.

The only other sensitive palms that survived were my Dypsis decaryi and Ravenea rivularis. Only because they were wrapped in double layers of heavy frost cloth and I hung a 40w light bulb in the middle of them.

I also bought 2 gallons of Freeze-Pruf and still have a gallon left that I will toss in the garbage. Like you, I have yet to hear any real explanation as to why a product that I bought in good faith did nothing to protect my tropical plants as promised.

Tex, sorry to hear about your losses. This is a real bummer. You and I were optimistic that Freeze_Pruf would put an end to the stress of worrying about certain plants during the winter months. Mid-December through January for me then by February I've relaxed quite a bit. Sometimes I think it would be so much easier to only plant zone 9 and hardier palms and then never have to deal with protection for the occasional freeze every few years but then I wouldn't be able to enjoy some of my favorites. I'd be without my Pritchardia, Roystonea, Chambeyronia, Dypsis, Licuala, and many other palms as well as other tropical plant species.

Don't give up on your Jacaranda. They usually resprout from the base of their trunks when the rest of the above ground part of them has died from freezing weather.

Jim in Los Altos, CA  SF Bay Area 37.34N- 122.13W- 190' above sea level

zone 10a/9b

sunset zone 16

300+ palms, 90+ species in the ground

Las Palmas Design

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Las Palmas Design & Associates

Elegant Homes and Gardens

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Hey, Jim.

Sorry to hear about the failed experiment. I've been on the road since the freeze and haven't really taken inventory yet. My yard got down to 28.8 F in one of the coldest spots -- about the same as you. The interesting thing about this freeze was that there was a bit of wind, which is unusual during radiation events. Perhaps you got the same thing and Freeze-Pruf doesn't help in that case (?). I guess it was just some pretty cold air. Sites closer to the water did better.

Good luck with the yard this winter. Yours looks awesome, and I'll certainly come to you with some advice if I ever get around to remodelling.

Happy holidays to all.

Jason

Menlo Park, CA  (U.S.A.) hillside

Min. temp Jan 2007:  28.1 deg. F (-2.2 deg. C)

Min. temp winter 2008: 34.7 deg. F (1.5 deg. C)

USDA Zone 10A since 2000

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Tex, sorry to hear about your losses. This is a real bummer. You and I were optimistic that Freeze_Pruf would put an end to the stress of worrying about certain plants during the winter months. Mid-December through January for me then by February I've relaxed quite a bit. Sometimes I think it would be so much easier to only plant zone 9 and hardier palms and then never have to deal with protection for the occasional freeze every few years but then I wouldn't be able to enjoy some of my favorites. I'd be without my Pritchardia, Roystonea, Chambeyronia, Dypsis, Licuala, and many other palms as well as other tropical plant species.

Don't give up on your Jacaranda. They usually resprout from the base of their trunks when the rest of the above ground part of them has died from freezing weather.

Thanks for the encouragement Jim. My wife and I have decided the same thing. No more out of zone palms and tropicals for us. We are tired of waking up at night to light TIKKI torches, spending hours covering plants and palms and sweating out each cold front that comes. It's just not worth it. When and if these finally die, I will replace them all with what ever will grow here.

Hey, as soon as I figure out how to download pictures off my phone, I will put up the pictures of the Royals close to my home. The are 40-50 foot and had about 50% damage to the outside of the fronds. The inner part of the frond is healthy and they will no doubt come back fine if it ever gets warm again.

My foxtail on the other hand look like it is dead. The fronds are all 100% fried and the new spear looks like it is dying too. It is about 20 foot tall and will be pretty hard to remove.

Edited by Big Tex

Houston, Texas

29.8649°N - 95.6521°W

Elevation 114.8 ft

Sunset zone 28

USDA zone 9a

Average maximum high temperature 93.60 F

Average maximum low temperature 45.20 F

The annual average precipitation is 53.34 Inches

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The principle of freeze pruf("freezing point depression") is basic freshman physics and should do something to help cold tolerance(I highly doubt 9.4F or even 5F). Its the reason that salt on the roads prevents freezing of water/slush, up to a point. Its obvious that Freeze pruf didn't meet expectations, which seem rather high, perhaps due to exaggerated advertizing and high cost. But something is lost here regarding the understanding of cold tolerance. Air temperature is not the key aspect of cold tolerance, those would be plant temperature, and cellular fluid composition. Often air temperature and plant temperature are not the same. Even ground temperature and air temperature are not the same, mostly. You cannot say that a palm has seen 26F before so it should take 26F this time because its not the air temperature that kills, its the plant temp and the cellular fluid composition. Obviously Big Tex's foxtail is a goner at 26F but it apparently survived that temp before. This event appears to have been a more severe freeze event, regardless of air temps. The temperature of the air was not the critical condition. My jacarandas saw 20F two years ago and are 2x bigger today. They lost 20% of the small branches. If that tree had been 20F it'd be dead as a doornail. Many palms tolerate colder temps in the desert due to the brief low temp exposures and the "drought state" where the cellular fluid has a lower freezing point due to freezing point depression. Its also the case that radiational cooling events typical in the desert are mostly shorter in duration. Enhanced cold tolerance of palms in a "drought state" would suggest that winter rains or watering prior to a freeze event leave the palm more susceptible to subsequent cold damage. I know a royal and several pure looking phoenix rupicolas that survived 18.6F at a local nursery in the dry desert.

As for old timers and watering just prior to a freeze: Wetting down plants before a mild freeze does 2 things: 1) it insulates with ice from additional cooling and 2) the solidification of water into ice leads to a heat release(enthalpy of freezing gives a heat release). If temps continue to drop or stay low, that watering will do nothing at all, plant death will result anyway. But growers continue to use it just because sometimes it works for minor freeze events.

Freeze pruf might not work at all on waxy leaves that would inhibit the active ingredient's diffusion across the plant membrane. For example, I would expect that bismarckias, which are quite waxy will not be good candidates for improved cold tolerance using freeze pruf. Unfortunately, the high price and advertizing claims of freeze pruf led to unrealistic expectations. I would be surprised if it was good for more than preventing a little leaf burn or 2 degrees of protection on some palms. If I were to use freeze pruf I certainly would not water my palms much in winter and I would expect it to be less effective in a scenario where it rained a bit a few days or a week before the freeze.

Perhaps the use of frost cloth, lighting, overhead canopy, and a more reasonably priced "freeze pruf type product" may some day add a half zone to cold tolerance of some palms. But in a world where wild claims are part of the culture(even the legislators make them, it gets them re-elected), its hard to be surprised that the claims were not met.

I offer my condolences for those who lost treasured palm specimens, and thank them for the their reporting of their losses. I'm sure it was painful, but the results are a great benefit to this board.

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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People from colder areas that want to beleive this product really work (like a magician) refuse to take a look at the facts / negative experiences others had with this product.

I was almost bombarded at EPS forum when i posted links (including palmtalk) to negative experiences. But i get nothing from participating and taking negative or positive side, so i withdraw from the topic over there.

Edited by Pivi

island Vis, adriatic sea, Croatia. Zone 9b/10a

Temperature low last winter: -0.9°C/30.4 F

Temperature low this winter: -0.3°C/31.5 F

-Creating my own little palm heaven-

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  • 3 years later...

I have started to notice this stuff showing up on the shelves all over in the last couple of weeks. With the days getting shorter up in the northern hemisphere, I thought it would make for a good bump. Anyone with newer experiences regarding this product?

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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I have started to notice this stuff showing up on the shelves all over in the last couple of weeks. With the days getting shorter up in the northern hemisphere, I thought it would make for a good bump. Anyone with newer experiences regarding this product?

With Vf-11 and the other snake oil being sold to gullible people, makes me want to get into the market. People love to buy hope, that's what really sells. I am sure I could conjure up an interesting concoction.

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  • 3 years later...

Resurrecting this old thread based on a question which I think is logical regarding this product:

Can Freezepruf be utilized to increase the perceived moisture of a plant, or more precisely, of a palm seedling. 
I was wondering if a plant anti-frost sprayer would help palms react as if they were consistently humid?

Not talking about using it in Winter. I'm talking about Socal's non-existent humidity during late spring, summer and fall. 

Thank you

5 year high 42.2C/108F (07/06/2018)--5 year low 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)--Lowest recent/current winter: 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)

 

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Anti-desiccant sprays work great on tropicals

before they come inside into low humidity environment

of heated homes and work well on tropicals in dry climates...

 

In regard to Freez-Pruf,I wonder if there

was not a problem with the formula,it always seemed

to smell bad and I don't think it should have.

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5 hours ago, Jimhardy said:

Anti-desiccant sprays work great on tropicals

before they come inside into low humidity environment

of heated homes and work well on tropicals in dry climates...

 

In regard to Freez-Pruf,I wonder if there

was not a problem with the formula,it always seemed

to smell bad and I don't think it should have.

Thanks Jim.

So a product like Wilt-Pruf would fit the bill for the palms during the hot, dry months?

5 year high 42.2C/108F (07/06/2018)--5 year low 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)--Lowest recent/current winter: 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)

 

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