" In Hawaii nobody is really a gardener - its too easy to grow things".......

[kahili]

Pigs! what a special aspect of Hawaii....Bo is right though, they don't go after horticultural plants, they go after food. I lived way up a valley on Maui, and right behind my house was a grove of breadfruit. When the breadfruit were dropping to the ground is when the pigs would come. They knew when it was happening and they were right on schedule yr after yr. I had a vegetable garden near the house, and I think they saw that as the dessert course because after they had their fill of breadfruit, they would head over to the vegetables and eat. I would wake up to hear them 15' away from my window snorting and squealing away. Once the breadfruit were done for the season, then they would go away. It did make vegetable gardening hard, I will say that! The dogs wanted nothing to do with them. They knew where all the fruit trees were in the valley and just followed the season. Some of the males were quite large, maybe 350-400 lbs and they were not scared of humans. They don't back down.

In their own way, deer here are just as destructive. Every year the list of plants that they eat increases.

edited to say that it was the vines and bamboo that would take a deserted garden down. Between the two of them, a garden can disappear in less than 6 months. That was in the valley though, where it was not that cultivated. In Opihikao, it would have taken much longer for a garden to disappear. It just depends on where you lived as to what the weeds were.

Edited November 13, 2009 by kahili

[Tyrone]

I think that you live where you live and many of us don't really have the opportunity to change that. Also gardens are personal things, so if you like tropical gardens and don't live in the tropics, you have to work hard to make it the tropical paradise you want. Gardeners in the tropics have a larger palate to work with, but the principal is the same. No matter where you are it requires work, they don't just happen by themselves. A painting doesn't happen without a painter, but one painter may have better quality paint to work with than another.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Kostas]

What is the bad in being able to grow a palm with ease? Isnt this what we all strive for when planting a palm,to offer it the best possible conditions we can so that it can grown and live problem free? So,what is the bad in that? Does selecting the best position to plant your palms make you an inferior gardener?Should we start planting Phoenix in bogs and Archontophoenix in xeriscapes to be real gardeners? I think that a BIG part of growing a beautyfull garden to the eyes of the gardener is good area selection...So,we call people who did the BEST choice for the palms of their likings not good enough gardeners??? Quite unfair and just jealous from our part...Personally what i seek from my garden is to plant something and leave it grow and thrive on its own...I look forward to the day many of my palms,if not all,will not need irrigation from my part and wont be struggling when a dripper fails. Why would i like to be checking drippers all the time or to be irrigating them? What would happen to them when i die if they are not able to live on their own? A reason i chose this area(and really LOVE Pyrgos) is the high frequency of rains and the shallow ground water level. Had i planted my palms in Athens,they would need irrigation all the time. So,someone who chooses to move to HI to bring his palm love to another level,can only be called a real gardener as he puts his palm needs above his other needs and goes ahead and moves there just to have a tropical garden growing where its best:in a tropical place!

Also,growing tropical palms in HI is no different from growing palms suited to our climate,something only smart as they look the best. And when you live in a tropical place growing tropical palms,you grow what you love most in the best possible conditions for it

All that however are not to imply that to create a manicured garden is easier in the tropics,i would say,its much more difficult as all sort of seeds sprout all the time on the fertile soil coupled with the heavy rains(at least in the rainny side but i am sure more hardy weeds come up in the leeward side too all the time...)

On the other hand,i am not a real gardener myself as what i like and look forward to creating is a non manicured rainforest jungle

Aloha from Greece

[ariscott]

Scott here, Ari's partner. I let Ari do all the posting here, or rather she sometimes lets me near the computer.

I do all the digging in the garden, so I have some claim to it. One thing that I fight in an on-going battle, and one I think that I will ultimately loose is the war on termites, or more specifically, Mastotermes Darwinensis, the Northern Giant Termite. It is the single most destructive force in our garden, and attacks so rapidly that within a week a young tree can be hollowed out and killed without me even knowing they are there. Chemical control is only effective once they have done the damage. And the other natural force that could lay waste to years of hard work easy gardening is a tropical cyclone. Hawaii only has to deal with the inevitable destruction of their garden from a volcanic eruption... Somehow that seems to be the ultimate challenge.

More info on mastos from http://www.termite.com/nt/termites.html

Mastotermes darwiniensis

Commonly found in tropical Northern Territory generally north of the tropic of Capricorn.

Nest location: Mastotermes darwiniensis build their nest (secretively) totally below the soil surface; or in the trunks and root crowns of trees and stumps. Once a nest is mature (over 100,000 or much higher) they can split off to form other nests over a wide ranging area. These sub nests are formed constantly and can sustain life for along period of time without contact to the original nest.

Highly destructive nature: Mastotermes darwiniensis is one of the worlds most destructive termite species, often causing severe damage to houses, buildings, bridges, posts, poles, and many other plant and animal products. Mastotermes darwiniensis is also an agricultural pest, responsible for ringbarking and killing living trees, shrubs, fruit, vegetable crops, sugarcane and rubber trees. (And palms!!!!!)

Mastotermes darwiniensis is reported to attack rubber tyres on tractors and cause damage to leather, hide, plastic or lead-sheathed cables, bitumen, bagged salt, flour, ivory, glass and various metals. Mastotermes darwiniensis is the most ancient of all the termites in the world they occur only in Australia. They are a termite to be feared.

[mike in kurtistown]

My two cents worth, not on the main issue, which I consider to be philosophical discussion about an issue of interest to some maybe, but not to me, but about gardening in the wet Hilo area. Bo-Göran and Dean have made the major point about control of weeds. Does anyone in California know what maile pilau is? Or bomona grass? Or "California grass"? You guys are lucky! And my present job is to clear several acres for planting. We recently had 10 days when there wasn't two hours without a rain shower. The grass and weeds are always wet! I am growing old waiting for the weeds to dry out enough for me to work with them. Pigs? They tear up my lawn nightly looking for earthworms, I believe. They chewed up one Socratea, but didn't like it, and haven't bothered any other palms since.

Not every species can grow in Hawaii, like other places. Coming from central Florida, I have tried to continue some arid or semi-arid climate species that I enjoyed there, with mixed results. Some Livistonas do very well here, but others rot away. The same applies to Coccothrinax. Most Copernicias are doing well, but others struggle. Forget Pseudophoenix, although I have one seedling that didn't get the message. Trithrinax? All mine are doing great.

Growing in wet Hawaii is great for many wonderful species that can't be done easily in other places, but the environment here does have its inherent challenges for others.

[trioderob]

My two cents worth, not on the main issue, which I consider to be philosophical discussion about an issue of interest to some maybe, but not to me, but about gardening in the wet Hilo area. Bo-Göran and Dean have made the major point about control of weeds. Does anyone in California know what maile pilau is? Or bomona grass? Or "California grass"? You guys are lucky! And my present job is to clear several acres for planting. We recently had 10 days when there wasn't two hours without a rain shower. The grass and weeds are always wet! I am growing old waiting for the weeds to dry out enough for me to work with them. Pigs? They tear up my lawn nightly looking for earthworms, I believe. They chewed up one Socratea, but didn't like it, and haven't bothered any other palms since.

Not every species can grow in Hawaii, like other places. Coming from central Florida, I have tried to continue some arid or semi-arid climate species that I enjoyed there, with mixed results. Some Livistonas do very well here, but others rot away. The same applies to Coccothrinax. Most Copernicias are doing well, but others struggle. Forget Pseudophoenix, although I have one seedling that didn't get the message. Trithrinax? All mine are doing great.

Growing in wet Hawaii is great for many wonderful species that can't be done easily in other places, but the environment here does have its inherent challenges for others.

this may be true but "all and all" its a little easier to grow them in your town than most other folks on the forum

or at least thats how it looks to me from the photos !

here again my thread was not intended as an insult to anyone and for a novice like me

there is great admiration for the experts such as BO who has been very helpful.

and of course we all know that anyone who is creating a garden will have a whole array of problems to deal with.

so please dont take anything stated here too seriously as that was not the intent

Edited November 13, 2009 by trioderob

[Kim]

Sure, that's how it looks -- your selected photos show only the results, none of the efforts required to achieve the results. Those Dypsis pilulifera look spectacular because of the preparation before planting and the continuous maintenance. They look better grown in a Hawaiian garden than they do in their natural habitat -- a result of cultural practices, not an accident.

It seems we are belaboring the obvious -- tropicals grow well in the tropics. I think everyone agrees with that. But to stretch that logic to say that people in the tropics are therefore not gardeners and do nothing but put sticks in dirt (what dirt?) is a false assumption.

P.S. I posted before your backpedaling edit.

[fiji jim]

It's never too easy.

What is TOO easy. Even when seed falls to the ground and multiplies like mad it creates another job for the gardener.

In these latitudes the growth rates for most plants is the greatest advantage, but the weeds know that also.

Jim

[Darold Petty]

Hey guys and gals, time-out ...while I go make some popcorn!

[John in Andalucia]

Luxury, my father used to makes us drain out an entire lake and then we had to dig 2 miles down just to loosen up the soil, and he would pay us sixpence each for the whole month, if we were lucky. Now that's gardening.

You had a lake? We used to dree-e-eam of gardening in an empty lake! No, when we wanted to grow anything we used to have to chisel away at volcanic rock with our bare teeth, and cry real tears into our 'ands to make t'soil! Then, if we were lucky, molten lava would consume us whilst we weren't looking, saving us from having to climb out of t'volcano!

[KONADANTOM]

Aloha from another pig in paradise. Enjoying everyone’s input – if it were not for my many outdoor gardening activities I think I could devote 24/7 to online palm stuff like our great PalmTalk Forum. I enjoyed the recent posting with Tim’s Hilo perspective and Morabeza79's comments and Flickr photo link.

On the topic of feral pigs – they can do a great deal of damage in a very short time. Shortly after I moved to my new place in Kailua Kona, my yard was “discovered” by hordes of large nasty-tempered feral black pigs. They dug big ruts into the lawn areas, uprooted plants to chew away at the juicy roots as they searched for grubs, and they gnawed into and pulled up in-ground irrigation lines. We did entice one pig into a very large pig trap where we had left rotting mangoes and papayas, but the only real solution was to perimeter fence the entire yard.

[trioderob]

Aloha from another pig in paradise. Enjoying everyone’s input – if it were not for my many outdoor gardening activities I think I could devote 24/7 to online palm stuff like our great PalmTalk Forum. I enjoyed the recent posting with Tim’s Hilo perspective and Morabeza79's comments and Flickr photo link.

On the topic of feral pigs – they can do a great deal of damage in a very short time. Shortly after I moved to my new place in Kailua Kona, my yard was “discovered” by hordes of large nasty-tempered feral black pigs. They dug big ruts into the lawn areas, uprooted plants to chew away at the juicy roots as they searched for grubs, and they gnawed into and pulled up in-ground irrigation lines. We did entice one pig into a very large pig trap where we had left rotting mangoes and papayas, but the only real solution was to perimeter fence the entire yard.

do people resort to getting large aggressive dogs to keep the pigs away?

I was surprised to see how large and nasty they are when I googled the subject !

the lower tusks can kill a man

Edited November 13, 2009 by trioderob

[Dypsisdean]

At the risk of turning this into a pig thread........................

A good local friend and long time pig hunter has always told me how very smart these guys are. And a local article highlighted this.

Apparently there are some neighborhoods in Hilo where the pigs know that if they come out of the forest and spend time between the houses in the neighborhoods they are safe. No one will shoot at them there. But if they go back up into the forest, they are fair game.

The plus side of all this is that I hear a nice pig wrapped in Ti and Taro leaves with some local seaonings, and buried for a day in a pit of scalding lava rock (an imu) is an appreciated feast, and mainstay of any luau. I don't eat red meat, but many visitors have told me it was some of the best they have ever tasted.

And yes Robert, I think having dogs on each side of me has spared me any grief. The way they are hunted is with dogs. It is really the only way to get these guys. You need a pack of dogs to track and corner one until the guy with the gun gets there. The other effective way is with an automobile. Although this doesn't always go as planned, as my pig hunting friend found out. He loaned his prize Toyota Sequoia to a friend a few months ago. He swerved to miss a pig in the road, and the lava off the road is not very forgiving. It was totaled. It would have been better to have taken the dent in the front end, and then had a luau.

[kahili]

There were pig hunters that would come up the valley sometimes, they always had a pack of dogs that were raised/trained to hunt the pigs. The dogs were all smallish to medium size and very agile. They were trained to hunt the pig down, and keep him trapped up against a cliff etc until the hunters could get there and shoot the pig. Because of their agility and numbers, they were able (most of the time) to control the pig's movements by lunging at him.

There was one time where my neighbor and I were throughly disgusted with this pack of pigs that kept coming through and doing damage to the vege garden, so Art got the bright idea of sharpening a few coffee sticks (which grow very straight and make good walking sticks) that were about 2" in diameter, 5' long and very sharp at the end. We both had large dogs. We were ready for the next time that the pigs, lead by a extremely large male, came by. When I think back to that night, I still laugh. It was dusk when they came to my yard. Art started to throw the spears at the male, which just bounced off of his skin-I am not even sure he felt them. During this part, lightening starts, which almost never happens. All the dogs take off except one, Murphy and he's happy to bark like crazy at the male, but isn't going to charge him. I am behind Art, handing him the spears and yelling at the pig, and the pig is just standing there staring at us.....then he charged us and we ran to my house which was only 10' away. After that we left him alone. Unless you have a gun, which neither of us were going to get, or a pack of trained dogs, they are going to have their way in your yard. Dogs that are large, I don't think will do well against a large male as they cannot move as fast as a smaller dog. The plan for us that night was that all the dogs would move as a pack against the pig, and not attack him, but scare him away. They moved as a pack, all right-just not the way we wanted.

I have always heard that pigs don't back up (wild pigs anyway) and that you never want to corner one. Anyone else heard that ?

[bgl]

Hmm...not sure if this is still the gardening thread? Beginning to look more and more like a pig thread!

Anyway, interesting that we seem to debate and discuss the obvious - the inescapable fact that most palms grow faster and better in Hawaii than on the U.S. Mainland. We've had a lot of rain over the last 24 hours (more than 5 inches as of right now), and this sometimes creates its own problems. We don't have a problem with flooding at our location, but with enough water from above, and with many trees and palms having fairly shallow root systems, sometimes stuff just happens... I found this Hyophorbe indica in a horizontal position this morning. Usually not a good sign, but one of many challenges of "gardening" here!

[bgl]

And talking about horizontal position: I have built a number of trails through the forest, on the land we're leasing for our little palm nursery. And stuff happens all the time back there. Maybe not technically part of the gardening aspect, but this is what I found a couple of weeks ago when I was walking one of the trails. And over the years we have had similar sized trees fall down on our own five acres, typically in conjunction with heavy rainfall. Usually I get rid of the crown and leave the trunk where it fell. It would take heavy machinery to move something like this!

[mike in kurtistown]

Just to note that I am having fun with this topic and would never be guilty of taking it too seriously. Two notes - first, I had 8 inches in 24 hours to top Bo's 5 inches. And it continues. There were quite strong winds associated with this Pacific storm. These storms swirl over thousands of miles, unaffected by little dots of land like the Big Island.

The second comment is about pigs. They like plastic tags. Everywhere I have plants in pots in the open, the plastic tags disappear, or the upper parts are chewed off, leaving the pointed lower portion lying about. I have some wooden structures to which I attach large palms so that they aren't blown over in the wind. I have around 150 palms there. Checking the other day, only about 10 of them still had tags in the pots, the exceptions being ones where the tags were almost inaccessible or almost completely buried in the soil.

I think of this as a plastic tag thread, not a pig thread.

[Wai`anae Steve]

Just to note that I am having fun with this topic and would never be guilty of taking it too seriously. Two notes - first, I had 8 inches in 24 hours to top Bo's 5 inches. And it continues. There were quite strong winds associated with this Pacific storm. These storms swirl over thousands of miles, unaffected by little dots of land like the Big Island.

The second comment is about pigs. They like plastic tags. Everywhere I have plants in pots in the open, the plastic tags disappear, or the upper parts are chewed off, leaving the pointed lower portion lying about. I have some wooden structures to which I attach large palms so that they aren't blown over in the wind. I have around 150 palms there. Checking the other day, only about 10 of them still had tags in the pots, the exceptions being ones where the tags were almost inaccessible or almost completely buried in the soil.

I think of this as a plastic tag thread, not a pig thread.

Well you Big Island Palm lovers I got about 0.03" of rain yesterday. Lucky live Wai`anae. Less rain less weeds.

IN my younger days I hunted pigs all over O`ahu. Dogs were in the 30-60 lb range. Most of the time if we were lucky they would catch a pig and fight with it until we got there and would stab the pig w/a long blade knife. To much chance of hitting a dog to use a gun.

And yes they can do damage to the environment. I've seen areas where it looked like someone ran through the place w/a roto tiller.

But yummy they sure taste good.

[Dr. George]

...Everywhere I have plants in pots in the open, the plastic tags disappear, or the upper parts are chewed off, leaving the pointed lower portion lying about. I have some wooden structures to which I attach large palms so that they aren't blown over in the wind. I have around 150 palms there. Checking the other day, only about 10 of them still had tags in the pots, the exceptions being ones where the tags were almost inaccessible or almost completely buried in the soil.

Sounds like menehunes to me - gmp

[Kris]

Hey guys and gals, time-out ...while I go make some popcorn!

[Lowey]

My two cents worth, not on the main issue, which I consider to be philosophical discussion about an issue of interest to some maybe, but not to me, but about gardening in the wet Hilo area. Bo-Göran and Dean have made the major point about control of weeds. Does anyone in California know what maile pilau is? Or bomona grass? Or "California grass"? You guys are lucky! And my present job is to clear several acres for planting. We recently had 10 days when there wasn't two hours without a rain shower. The grass and weeds are always wet! I am growing old waiting for the weeds to dry out enough for me to work with them. Pigs? They tear up my lawn nightly looking for earthworms, I believe. They chewed up one Socratea, but didn't like it, and haven't bothered any other palms since.

Not every species can grow in Hawaii, like other places. Coming from central Florida, I have tried to continue some arid or semi-arid climate species that I enjoyed there, with mixed results. Some Livistonas do very well here, but others rot away. The same applies to Coccothrinax. Most Copernicias are doing well, but others struggle. Forget Pseudophoenix, although I have one seedling that didn't get the message. Trithrinax? All mine are doing great.

Growing in wet Hawaii is great for many wonderful species that can't be done easily in other places, but the environment here does have its inherent challenges for others.

this may be true but "all and all" its a little easier to grow them in your town than most other folks on the forum

or at least thats how it looks to me from the photos !

here again my thread was not intended as an insult to anyone and for a novice like me

there is great admiration for the experts such as BO who has been very helpful.

and of course we all know that anyone who is creating a garden will have a whole array of problems to deal with.

so please dont take anything stated here too seriously as that was not the intent

Robert,

I have resisted replying since your first post, but I am glad you have jumped in with these comments, I had hoped from the begining the you were not meaning to offend anyone and I have even put comments in posts about how lucky I feel living in the tropics and the fact that mother nature does most of the work.

Where I live is very similar in climate to Hawaii, high rainfall and a tropical climate with all the tropical disease, fungus, bugs and weeds and none of the problems that people from colder climates face, I still feel lucky everytime one of my seeds sprout and I still love the gardening, just as you probably do. I think that is the point, dont you all think so?

[mike in kurtistown]

After reading Dr. George's comment several days ago (and looking the name up in Google) I believe that my plastic tag problem could indeed be the work of the menehune (Hawaii's little people). They probably hide with the pigs in the overgrown land that surrounds my property.

[Al in Kona]

After reading Dr. George's comment several days ago (and looking the name up in Google) I believe that my plastic tag problem could indeed be the work of the menehune (Hawaii's little people). They probably hide with the pigs in the overgrown land that surrounds my property.

Hey why not, you gotta blame it on someone or something, right? Just hope you never catch them in the process of doing it (they see that you saw them) or the saying goes, ones life is in danger. Oh, I'm sure you're not too worried about such legends anyway! lol

[amazondk]

This thread is quite interesting. Here in my part of the tropics plants grow pretty well for the most part. But, there are a lot of challanges. Soil types range from sand to lateritic clay. Since our native forest cycles nutrients from tree top to forest floor very quickly there is a very fine layer of top soil. Since the native vegetation is so rich in species composition exotic plants put in the ground and left to grow do not have much of a chance of survival. The natives, including many palms, will just overwhelm them and crowd them out. For a garden if one does not enrich the soil, fertilize (organic or not), and water in the dry season the garden will not evolve well. And, if just left alone it will revert to native secondary forest and eventually into primary tropical forest. On the other hand native palms just pop up all over the place, many as pioneer plants. I think that gardening is work and pleasure anywhere.

dk