Butyagrus hardiness

[Nigel]

Over the last couple of years we have imported a considerable number of Butyagrus into Europe. Large and small.

We were the first company to do this on a commercial scale.

We imported from 2 locations/

1. Florida

2. Santa Catarina Brazil.

The Florida specimens were by far the most beautiful. Fantastic fantastic plants and everybody wanted them. The Brazil ones by contrast were uglier and sold poorly.

Last winter was hell in north europe, probably the coldest for 30 years. In England ,a lot of Butias died that had been in gardens for a number of years and doing well, which shows how cold it was.

Sadly it was too cold for the Florida Butyagrus in north europe last winter, they almost all have either suffered serious damage or been killed.

The amazing thing is that the Brazil Butyagrus were untouched. Moreover they seem to be growing well.

The mother is Butia odorata which is not any hardier than most capitatas , so the magic ingredient must be the Santa Catarina queen which we already know is much tougher than queens from other locations.

In my opinion this proves that the donor plant really does have an important say in hardiness.

[Nigel]

To see discussions and pics their is interesting European Palm society pages , it is a long thread but the pics and relevant discussion are on page 12. http://www.palmsociety.org.uk/forum/topic....mp;topicpage=12

On another forum http://www.growingontheedge.net/viewtopic....4424087dcc40b8e

[PalmGuyWC]

Hi Nigel,

Thanks for some very useful information. I have been very curious to know how cold hardy a hybrid might be if the donor of pollen was one of the less hardy Syagrus such as S. botryophora or S. Sancona, or even Mark's Butia X Coconut. (Let's hope Mark protects his Butia X Coconut if he gets a cold winter).

Last year I planted a Bujubaea X Syagrus and this year a Syagrus X (Bujubaea) The palms look very similar, but it will be interesting to see which will take more cold. I suspect the Bujubaea X Syagrus will be more cold hardy, but only time and a cold winter will tell, but I'm hoping for a mild winter. I also have a Syagrus X Parajubaea TVT cross, and it's strap leafed and growing nicely, but I will put it under cover this winter. It will be planted when it produces a couple of divided fronds.

Dick

[Kathryn]

Interesting Nigel. One post stated that several Florida hybrids died at -9ºC (16ºF) while the Brazilian hybrids weren't damaged, but it also stated that the temperature didn't get above freezing for two weeks. I know of some Florida hybrids here in the States that weren't damaged at 18ºF (8ºC) but this low temperature was for just a few nights at most. It would be interesting to see how the Brazilian hybrids would do here in the States with shorter exposures to even lower temperatures.

Dick - Do you have any of the Brazilian hybrids or know of any in the States?

[Nigel]

Interesting Nigel. One post stated that several Florida hybrids died at -9ºC (16ºF) while the Brazilian hybrids weren't damaged, but it also stated that the temperature didn't get above freezing for two weeks. I know of some Florida hybrids here in the States that weren't damaged at 18ºF (8ºC) but this low temperature was for just a few nights at most. It would be interesting to see how the Brazilian hybrids would do here in the States with shorter exposures to even lower temperatures.

Dick - Do you have any of the Brazilian hybrids or know of any in the States?

Kathryn, I am sure they would be hardier because the Florida ones suffered total leaf burn, and it is well documented in Florida that the santa catarina queen has come through severe freezes untouched whilst normal queens are fried.

Dick, I always believed that the mother plant was more influential in hardiness but now I think this is not the case. Probably one or other plant carries the dominant gene.

Edited September 21, 2009 by Nigel

[PalmGuyWC]

Kathryn,

I know of no Brazilian hybrids in the USA, but that doesn't mean there might not be any. I sure wish we could get some of those hardy Syagrus that Nigel speaks of in the USA to get a cold hardy gean pool.

Nigel,

I still tend to belive that the mother plant's hardiness is carried over to the progeny and is more dominent than the pollen donor. Certainly the mother's characteristics are more dominent than the pollen donor, however I could be wrong. I'm still amazed that Butia X Parajubaea cocoides is so cold hardy and also heat resistant, but the cold hardiness of Butia seems to have been carried over to the progeny. Recently Patrick has crossed various Butias with Parajubaea TVT and also P. sunkha. It will be interesting to see if they look any different and what their growth habits are.

Dick

[plamfrong]

Dick, what Butia species has Patrick crossed with those other Parajubaeas? Or is it too soon to announce anything yet. I have just purchased two palms from him so far but I'd like to get a couple more this fall... I think they are exciting as well.

An acquaintance up here in Port Hadlock (near Port Townsend) just planted two regular mule palms on the west side of his house. They're not of any special progeny so we'll see how that goes. On the plus side he is in a pretty mild spot. He also planted a large Parajubaea torallyi in the front yard.

[kahili]

I had one that died this past winter, it got down to 15 and 11 degrees on two nights in a row. I had heavily wrapped it with frost blankets and then heavy duty weed block over that, and still it died. I actually left the blankets on for almost a week as we ended up getting snow right afterwards, so maybe it didn't like that, maybe too much moisture in there because the new leaves rotted and came out. Of some interest to me was that the previous winter I had it in a pot and brought it inside on nights that were below 20, and it still had the new leaf rot-but it came back fine from that. Its sort of a perplexing palm me,in terms of what it can handle. This last winter when we had that severe cold snap-it was one of only a few casualties-the washingtonias were the others. It was from Florida and was old enough to be a 5 gallon with pinnate leaves when I put it in the ground.

[PalmGuyWC]

Ian,

I have 3 Butia capitatas that Patrick uses for hybridizing, and they all look a little different, but they came from different sources. I have another Butia that he doesn't use because it is not receptive to hybridizing. I also have a Butia yata and a Butia paraguayensis that he hybridizes. Of all my Butias I think the B yata is the most beautiful. It's a nice silver grey and holds many fronds and the fronds are very symetrical. The B. paraguayensis is very nice too, but it has a very fat, short, bulbous trunk and the grey/blue fronds have a very heavy texture, almost like cardboard. The B. para. has beautiful magenta flowers and the female flowers are large. The spathe is very thick and woody.

I'm not sure what combinations of Parajubaeas he uses on the various Butias, but in the past couple of years I'm sure he has tried them all with the various Parajubaea pollens. All of my Butias seem to be equally cold hardy and they have taken temps. down to 14F in 1989/90.

The winter you had in the Pacific NW and also in N. Europe last winter were brutal, and I think that would be pushing it unless you lived in a warmer micro climate. Probably only Tracheycarpus would take those low temps. Your buddy who has planted a Parajubaea is pushing it, as all of mine show foliage damage below 25F.

Dick

[Mark Heath]

After last years bad winter, i noticed that my BXS.Costae, a triple cross, had damage. 50% leaf burn. I posted a pic of it in a previous thread, but by then it was fully recoverd. Anyway, that leads me to believe at least w/ that palms case that

it carried some of the fathers traits as far as cold hardiness. None of the true XButyagrus's crossed w/ Queen were damaged. Not here at my home anyways! The palm ranch recorded 17f w/ the small mules showing new spear burn.

I had allways believed that anything crossed w/ Butia would giggle at our winters here in Central Florida, but it was nasty here at my low-lying property. 22f was the low, for a few hours, but WOW nonetheless!!!

Just my two cents.

Mark

[plamfrong]

Dick, thanks. If he has crossed B. yatay with a Parajubaea (or for that matter Jubaea) I hope I have the chance to try one.

I sort of view planting something like a Parajubaea here a question of how much damage can one tolerate, and what lengths do you want to go to to protect it? The aforementioned Parajubaea will be heavily protected for the first winter or two. Whether or not it has any real long term hope here (truly I don't think anyone in the Northwest has tried one in such a favorable microclimate), I hope it will last long enough for us to learn something.

My Jubaea, which has been in the ground for 8 years but is still small, experienced no frost damage last winter. It's much hardier of course, but.... at least it's not a Trachycarpus I've also had Parajubaea seedlings live through 20F, albeit with minor damage - and I've killed them at higher temperatures than that, back in 2003-04 before we knew how hardy it wasn't.

[Jeff zone 8 N.C.]

Nigel, thanks very much for this post. I have always thought that a B X with the most cold hardy pollen donor would be a great advantage but I had no idea that the father would have as much of an influence as records show. This is great news! You say that the mother was a B. odorata and the father a S. Santa Catarina and that the offspring were not as beautiful as the Florida type. I urge you to try other Butia mothers as I can not see any "ugliness" in the Syagrus Santa Cat. and maybe even more beauty than a typical Syagrus r. I can personally support your Santa Cat. cold hardiness claims as my own Santa Cats. have proven themselves here as compared to typical Syagrus r. This new palm hybridizing age is so new and exciting that it is hard to tell what influence a particular mother or father will show, in what way. I can only envy your location and wish you the best in your endeavor. Please keep posting pictures and info from your part of the world.

[Nigel]

You say that the mother was a B. odorata and the father a S. Santa Catarina and that the offspring were not as beautiful as the Florida type. I urge you to try other Butia mothers as I can not see any "ugliness" in the Syagrus Santa Cat. and maybe even more beauty than a typical Syagrus r. I can personally support your Santa Cat. cold hardiness claims as my own Santa Cats.

Jeff, it was the plants in the nursery that were ugly , the Florida plants were tended to like children and were grown to perfection in pots , the Brazil ones were grown in a field ,attacked by insects, starved of food, dug up and plonked in the same substrate they make roads from here.

Pic below is first how they looked in beginning and second , one that has been growing 2 years. The second one is astonishing, 6 new leaves this year and opening a 7th. I never thought this possible in our climate. Maybe merrill can advise how much trunk on mature palm 7 leaves equates to, I would guess more than 1m.

[Nigel]

To show what these ugly ducklings can grow into............

Edited September 22, 2009 by Nigel

[PalmGuyWC]

Nigel,

Since Butia odorata is a smaller Butia, do you find their hybrid progeny to be smaller than if crossed with B. capitata? Thanks to Alberto several of our N. Calif. PS members have some B. archeri and one is about to bloom for the first time. If a cross is possible, it will be interestilng to see a very small Butia like archeri crossed with a queen. A smaller size is very desirable as most mules grow fairly large and are hard to fit into a city sized garden.

Dick

[merrill]

Some years ago, we had 10F here in Gaiinesville, FL. Nine motley Butyagrus along the road were apparently wiped out, but we cut the buds back to live tissue and eight of them are still there to this day.

merrill

Edited September 22, 2009 by merrill

[Nigel]

Nigel,

Since Butia odorata is a smaller Butia, do you find their hybrid progeny to be smaller than if crossed with B. capitata? Thanks to Alberto several of our N. Calif. PS members have some B. archeri and one is about to bloom for the first time. If a cross is possible, it will be interestilng to see a very small Butia like archeri crossed with a queen. A smaller size is very desirable as most mules grow fairly large and are hard to fit into a city sized garden.

Dick

Dick, Butia odorata crossed is wayyyyyyyy smaller than eriospatha crossed, the latter of which can be jubaeaesque in proportions.

[freakypalmguy]

Nigel,

Since Butia odorata is a smaller Butia, do you find their hybrid progeny to be smaller than if crossed with B. capitata? Thanks to Alberto several of our N. Calif. PS members have some B. archeri and one is about to bloom for the first time. If a cross is possible, it will be interestilng to see a very small Butia like archeri crossed with a queen. A smaller size is very desirable as most mules grow fairly large and are hard to fit into a city sized garden.

Dick

That is an exciting prospect, B. archeri X Syagrus, Parajubea, Jubeopsis, Allagoptera, or, dare I say it,,,,,,,, JUBEA Is it possible? I hope so.

Matt

[plamfrong]

Dick, Butia odorata crossed is wayyyyyyyy smaller than eriospatha crossed, the latter of which can be jubaeaesque in proportions.

Nigel, have you or anyone you know accomplished B. eriospatha x santa catarina queen yet? Some of us think that might be the ticket to success, and heck, I'd sure like to try one someday.

[Nigel]

Dick, Butia odorata crossed is wayyyyyyyy smaller than eriospatha crossed, the latter of which can be jubaeaesque in proportions.

Nigel, have you or anyone you know accomplished B. eriospatha x santa catarina queen yet? Some of us think that might be the ticket to success, and heck, I'd sure like to try one someday.

It seems more difficult to cross but not impossible. We imported some bigger ones. Here is a pic of one of them.

It is the one on the right next to two odorata crosses

[Jeff zone 8 N.C.]

You say that the mother was a B. odorata and the father a S. Santa Catarina and that the offspring were not as beautiful as the Florida type. I urge you to try other Butia mothers as I can not see any "ugliness" in the Syagrus Santa Cat. and maybe even more beauty than a typical Syagrus r. I can personally support your Santa Cat. cold hardiness claims as my own Santa Cats.

Jeff, it was the plants in the nursery that were ugly , the Florida plants were tended to like children and were grown to perfection in pots , the Brazil ones were grown in a field ,attacked by insects, starved of food, dug up and plonked in the same substrate they make roads from here.

Pic below is first how they looked in beginning and second , one that has been growing 2 years. The second one is astonishing, 6 new leaves this year and opening a 7th. I never thought this possible in our climate. Maybe merrill can advise how much trunk on mature palm 7 leaves equates to, I would guess more than 1m.

Ah, now I understand Nigel. Yes Florida is a plant production machine, with most commercial plants grown to perfection but needing good care and hardening off to smoothly transition into a real life growing situation. The X Santa Caterina plants you show, after being grown, in ground, are very beautiful! Please post more pictures.

[merrill]

Hi, Nigel: Many Thanks for your expectation of my judgements on Butia spp. I'm completely unaware of growth rates of these Butia of which I'm entirely ignorant.

I sincerely hope you will be able to market these very interesting "new" Butia TO ME!!

Best Wishes,

merrill

Edited September 23, 2009 by merrill

[Nigel]

Hi, Nigel: Many Thanks for your expectation of my judgements on Butia spp. I'm completely unaware of growth rates of these Butia of which I'm entirely ignorant.

I sincerely hope you will be able to market these very interesting "new" Butia TO ME!!

Best Wishes,

merrill

Merrill, I produced around 100 Butia odoratax Syagrus seeds earlier this year but to date none have germinated. This is not a surprise as I dont have 1 seed from 5000 pure odorata seeds germinated either. Since arriving here in brazil my attempts to germinate the butinii have been worse than dismal.

Remind me of your adress and I will happily send you a few seeds to play with.

[merrill]

Hi, Nigel:

Merrill Wilcox

9430 NW 226th St.

Alachua, FL 32615

Many Thanks, merrill

[Alberto]

This Butia eriospatha X Syagrus romanzoffiana (accidental cross - ´´a fast growing butia volunteer´´ in a garden of an unckle) at a place in Tibagi county at my fathers farm,were we stay some weeks in summer with family. It is growing in poor shallow sandy soil and is never been fertilized.

Erio x queen (december 2008)

Edited September 23, 2009 by Alberto

[Alberto]

From other side with my two younger kids Leonard and Lydia

[Alberto]

Inflorescence

[Nigel]

Alberto, every xButyagrus (eriospatha) I have seen has had this same leaf shape, it seems far more recurved than the other xButyagrus crosses.

[Alberto]

Waterfall

[Alberto]

OFF TOPIC

Young queens (native) and one of the first Beccarioiphoenix alfredii planted out in Brazil..I think...

Edited September 23, 2009 by Alberto

[PalmGuyWC]

Hi Alberto,

Keep the pictuires coming, off topic or not. It's always interesting to see what your doing in your part of the world. The B. eriospatha cross is a giant.

Did your B. microspadix set seeds?

Dick

[Alberto]

Yes Dick,it´s setting seeds

Sombody asked me how the spatha looks like. It´s not the same as Syagrus and haven´t the thick rusty tomentum but it´s more ´´poudery tomentum´´. Here it is: (it´s somewhat similar to the spathas of the Butia sp that Nigel found on the Island of Florianópolis)

[FRITO]

Alberto that Butia eriospatha X Syagrus romanzoffiana at your uncles garden is a nice palm!

I enjoy the pictures from you part of the world, keep them comming!

[VA Jeff]

I really don't get it. Eriospathas seem to have more planar leaf shapes in respect to the rachis, than any other butia I know. A few I've seen have been planar, even at a young age. Why are the syagrus x eriospathas showing strong V keeled leaves and recurvature?

So when do seeds ripen in that "other" hemisphere?

More importantly, is it true that toilet bowls flush in the opposite direction as the Northern hemisphere?

[Nigel]

I really don't get it. Eriospathas seem to have more planar leaf shapes in respect to the rachis, than any other butia I know. A few I've seen have been planar, even at a young age. Why are the syagrus x eriospathas showing strong V keeled leaves and recurvature?

So when do seeds ripen in that "other" hemisphere?

More importantly, is it true that toilet bowls flush in the opposite direction as the Northern hemisphere?

Butia eriospatha does have a very strong recurved leaf here in Brazil. Butia eriospathas are flowering now in the mountains.

Yes water goes backwards its very funny, and the sun goes back to front too, very disorientating for a northerner !!!

[AJQ]

"and the sun goes back to front too, very disorientating for a northerner !!" ??????

Rgds Andy.

[Nigel]

"and the sun goes back to front too, very disorientating for a northerner !!" ??????

Rgds Andy.

Andy , the sun is to the north , it makes everything seem back to front.... difficult to explain but when you are accustomed to the sun being south and it switches to north it makes west seem like east and east seem like west its very disorientating, because if you navigate using the sun based on a european angle you end up going the opposite direction !!!

[AJQ]

I see what you mean now. Having lived in the southern hemishere myself for a while I can't say that I particularly had a problem with it. Although I have actually got disorientated at Exeter and Katowice airports for some very odd reason, thinking East was West and vise versa! Not too sure why that happened ............. It was very strange.

Rgds Andy.

[PalmGuyWC]

Very interesting that you guys bring this subject up. I can see how it would be very confussing to change hemisphers and find the sun angle 180 degrees different from what we have been "programed" to expect.

Dick

[Nigel]

Very interesting that you guys bring this subject up. I can see how it would be very confussing to change hemisphers and find the sun angle 180 degrees different from what we have been "programed" to expect.

Dick

Programmed is the correct word Dick, using the sun when lost was always the best way to head in the general direction required, here, I have to really think about this before going because it is soooo hard to work out west and east now.