Phoenix roebelenii hardiness?

[velutina]

Most sources I look at claim P. roebelenii is hardy to 25-28F. Yet I see them all over in my neighborhood doing extremely well (even very large specimens). According to zone maps, my area is zone 9a (average minimum 20-25F). I see many mature P. roebelenii yet hardly any mature Syagrus romanzoffiana (which supposedly is hardy to 20F). So what's going on? Maybe the smaller palms are protected from the cold and wind and the tall S. romanzoffiana are exposed?

Also, if P. roebelenii is doing well here, do you think Livistona spp. or Dypsis spp. might grow here with some protection? I've never seen any growing here, but i've also never seen them for sale. Yet, the local Moon nursery sells $5000 Ficus natida and have yet to see them anywhere other than the strip.

I'm getting really bored of the 4 species everyone grows here and REALLY want to try something different!!

Thanks

Edited July 14, 2009 by velutina

[John Case]

Pygmy date palms here are pretty common. during the winter we get as low as 25 or so with a dry winter wind. The tops of all of them burn but seem to recover in the spring. I would guess that you would be able to grow them with a little protection during the winter months.....

[DoomsDave]

I think Vegas is a lot colder than you think, alas.

The average winter isn't so bad, but it can get cold in the high desert, down to the mid-teens F and even below.

A really bad winter will wipe out palms en masse up there. The reason it doesn't appear to be the case is that many palms have been replaced over the years as they've been trashed.

The moral: Don't spend big money on palms in Vegas. The cold God's hammer will hit some day.

Alas!

[Alicehunter2000]

Roebs really struggle here to make it through an average winter but queens seem to stand a better chance in Panama City, Florida (zone 9a). Of course the individual genetics of particular plants make a big difference here on the edge.

[velutina]

I think Las Vegas is generally warmer than you might expect. It's those freezes that come along every 5 or 10 years that kill everything off. In the past 6 winters, it has gone below 30 only 13 times (half of those in 2007). So in the past 6 years, P. roebelenii would have needed protection maybe 4 nights... I can handle that !

03/04 - 31,31,31,30,30,29

04/05 - 31,30,30

05/06 - 30,30

06/07 - 31,31,31,30,30,29,28,26,26,25,23

07/08 - 31,31,31,30,30,29,29,28

08/09 - 31,31,30,29,29,28

Edited July 15, 2009 by velutina

[sonoranfans]

Roebeliniis will probably not make it in vegas, they burn below 26F and vegas will go down to the teens. the good thing is that vegas is a desert environment so it will heat up fast, but its a pretty sure thing that roebeliniis will croak there. Phoenix theophrasti might make it if they are sheltered a bit in winter. Vegas is typically 5F colder than phoenix, AZ in winter, and that would be enough to kill roebelinii once every 4-5 years or so when you get that cold snap in the high teens. BY the way syagrus are definitely more cold hardy than roebeliniis. I would be thinking cold hardy sabals, dactyliferas and perhaps CIDP. IF there are no mature dactyliferas or CIDP in vegas, the robeliniis will never make it. You should also take advantage of overhead canopy to extend your zone since you are in the desert and dominated by radiative cooling events. If you can get some overhead trees to trap the heat down, your zone can be extended for smaller palms that can be grown underneath. By the way, I'm laughing at the ficus nitida. We had a 30 year cold snap here to 20F in '07, killed a boatload of ficus, even many mature large trees, they will never make it there. I lost 9 of those myself, will never plant them again. You might consider that the strip is a heated area, that alot of building heat or some other source keeps it warmer than any of the areas away from the strip. In center phoenix, its +5 -7F warmer in the lows than the east and west valley in winter. We call it the "heat island effect", perhaps the strip is similar in vegas, but the temps will drop off rapidly without warning as you leave that area. If you see older roebeliniis in YOUR neighborhood, you might be getting a heat island benefit.

regards,

Tom

Edited July 15, 2009 by sonoranfans

[mnorell]

I am convinced the P. roebelenii sold on the west coast is a different and hardier provenance, or perhaps some sort of old stable hybrid. Much hardier to frost than the form encountered in more tropical areas. When I lived in California I always wondered about the form of P. roebelenii sold and planted all over, even in inland valley areas where cold was a common problem, and they appeared to survive without damage. The leaves are more erect, stiffer, shorter, more glaucous, and the plants much less graceful than the very glossy, deep green, lax-leaf form that is sold universally in the southeast U.S. and Hawai'i...this latter form very, very tender. I have tried them a few times in my 9a landscape, protected and not, they can't survive even a light frost in the open without bronzing or defoliating, and under canopy temps above 25 will kill them dead unless you use heroic measures. Not worth it! Virtually all other Phoenix are much hardier.

I would suggest you try Phoenix acaulis if you want a dwarf Phoenix, this is very tough and has never burned for me despite repeated long, wet freezes to 22-24F each year. For larger Phoenix, try P. theophrastii or if you're brave for long-term you can even try P. reclinata if you have the room, because most "versions" of this palm have good hardiness to the low 20s before burning, they will freeze to the ground somewhere in the teens but have been known to rather reliably resprout even in the Gulf South in the ravaging '80s freezes to the single digits with three days below freezing.

Go look at the Mirage and see what they have planted there, lots of good landscaping ideas...they have nice Brahea armatas, Cycas revolutas, nice Yucca recurvifolia, lots of other goodies...you can also probably plant Dioon edulis and a number of other hardy cycads for a "palmy look" as long as you protect them from afternoon Vegas sun and heat. Perhaps you could also get away with Chamaedorea radicalis in deep, protected shade.

There's a funny story about the Mirage and all those Phoenix canariensis they installed just before a big freeze in the late '80s (I think it was a year or two before the big west coast freeze of '90) when I think it hit about 5 degrees and killed them all before the hotel had officially opened...they painted the crowns of dead leaves green because they couldn't install new palms in time for the opening, so they say...

[velutina]

Thanks Tom! There are CIDP and P. dactyliferas everywhere... big ones!

With the P. roebeliniis, they should be a lot easier to protect if needed. A temporary enclosure should be pretty easy with their size. I am just surprised to see so many of them in yards that are fairly large (6'+) and the lack of large S. romanzoffiana. Perhaps they are just buying them large...

My neighborhood is about 500' lower in elevation than the strip and the forecast for my zip is usually 2-3 degrees warmer than the official reading at Mccarren airport... so maybe.

Tom, what i'd do for those extra 5 degrees you have in AZ!!

[bahia]

The other reason that you may not see large Queen palms in Las Vegas is that they look horrible without tons of water in a desert climate, and with the regular hot, drying winds you get there, they just don't look very good even if they are hardier than P. roebellenii. The Pygmy Date Palms are not all that tolerant of hot drying winds, either, but being smaller and closer to the ground, and most probably planted nearer buildings for some shade, they wouldn't be as impacted as taller Queen Palms. Given that Queen palms here in California don't always look good without irrigation and fertilizing on a regular basis, I wouldn't be inclined to want to feature them in a garden in Las Vegas. Why not look for a more suitable yet less common Brahea 'Clara' instead? Certainly it is hardier, more drought tolerant, and takes the wind and heat in stride.

[velutina]

I would say 90% of the S. romanzoffiana look terrible here. But there are quite a few that look amazing! I'm convinced that with the correct care, I can grow some amazing marginal palms.

I am only staying in Las Vegas for 3 more years, so don't want to plant anything too expensive or too slow-growing.

My yard is almost all drought-tolerant plants, but I reserved the most protected section of the yard for the more exciting plants It doesn't get sun in the hottest part of the day and is protected from the wind.

[sonoranfans]

The other reason that you may not see large Queen palms in Las Vegas is that they look horrible without tons of water in a desert climate, and with the regular hot, drying winds you get there, they just don't look very good even if they are hardier than P. roebellenii. The Pygmy Date Palms are not all that tolerant of hot drying winds, either, but being smaller and closer to the ground, and most probably planted nearer buildings for some shade, they wouldn't be as impacted as taller Queen Palms. Given that Queen palms here in California don't always look good without irrigation and fertilizing on a regular basis, I wouldn't be inclined to want to feature them in a garden in Las Vegas. Why not look for a more suitable yet less common Brahea 'Clara' instead? Certainly it is hardier, more drought tolerant, and takes the wind and heat in stride.

No, that is not my experience, plenty of good looking syagrus can be grown in the desert with drip irrigation. Because of our clay soils, the soil retains water, so its a bit of a tradeoff. Sandy soil tends to need alot of water to stay wet, clay is much more efficient if the palm can grow in clay, and syagrus love clay soils as long as they get their micronutrients. If you grow windblock, the damage due to drying winds can be limited as well since windblock tends to trap moisture. My water consumption bill is about $70-80 a month in summer including the pool. Yes I do water them weekly in the hottest time of the year and plant roses and other plants under them that get water 2x a week in summer. Drip irrigation is much more efficient than sprinklers or even soaker hoses, probably 2x as efficient as soaker hoses and 3-4 times more efficient than sprinklers. Attached is a pic showing my syagrus, taken a two weeks ago in the dryest/hottest time of the year.

Velutina: the use of overhead canopy in radiative cooling dominated environments cannot be appreciated enough by those from the east that have the nasty advective dominated cooling events. I have used temperature probes to determine that its worth +5-7F in this desert. You should take advantage of it, and the fact that our cold is more transient(temporary) than the advective cold back east. This means studying about canopy trees that can be grown there and planting palms under them. In jan '07, the local weather station(1 mile away) recorded 20F two nights in a row, but by 9AM it was above freezing and rose to a high of 55F, which is typical of the desert. In this cold event( a 30 year low) all my roebeliniis out in the open with no overhead canopy were burned all the way back to the trunk, not even a green stem left. The ones under the queen canopy were just about untouched, little to no sign of leaflet burn. Now the queens overhead were all burned about 30% or so. This should tell you something about the value of canopy in the desert.

[AggiePalms]

Here we had approximately 24 t his winter, away from the city heat island, but under the cover of live oak trees. A few roebellini have put out new fronds, though stunted. These few survivors don't look terribly healthy, zone 8b. My largest queen took mid teens a few years ago with insulation; it survived barely and this year had no problems with the temperatures. I would think you can try a roebellini, but don't be too shocked if it doesn't make it through the really cold winters.

[velutina]

Wow!! Tom, your palms are amazing!!

Tom, on your queens, what type of emitters do you use, how many, how often do you run them and for how long? They are stunning!

[Kris]

Pygmy Date Palm, Robellini Palm

Phoenix roebelenii

Clustering Pygmy Date Palm

Phoenix roebelenii var. reasoneri

Phoenix, Date Palm

Phoenix roebelenii x paludosa

[sonoranfans]

Wow!! Tom, your palms are amazing!!

Tom, on your queens, what type of emitters do you use, how many, how often do you run them and for how long? They are stunning!

I use 3-4 2 gallon/hr emitters per tree and water for 7hrs. The key with drip irrigation in clay soils is to use low gph emitters and water a long time. Emitters that water at high rates leads to lots of runoff, poor efficiency. Because I bunch my queens, some will share emitters that water the root zones of more than one tree. If you notice, I bunch everything to take advantage of shared emitters. the sun is so intense here you dont have to worry about too much shade. I have found the pnoenix area landscapers and nursery folks to be mostly ignorant on how to take care of palms. A few nurserymen are knowledgable, but the landscapers are almost all completely ignorant. I also fertilize regularly in summer and add chelated micronutrients and humic acid a few times a year. Queens are some of the most micronutrient needy palms out there, and they love fertilizer. I have also found that if sun doesnt hit the ground near the roots, the soil stays damp much longer as the sun heating the ground drives off moisture. By planting roebeliniis and other smaller plants/palms under the queens the ground is protected from sunbake and drying. Over the past two weeks it has been 109-115F and 8-20%RH, and I have also added supplemental irrigation by watering at the end of days(6PM) with a sprinkler for 20 mins or so under each group.

My recommendations in the desert are, plant some tough palms like brahea armata, bunch plants and palms to share emitters and shade root areas, and add some extra supplemental water in the hottest/dryest time of the year every 3-4 days. Vegas can be similar to phoenix in summer, very hot and dry, I think the strategy will work there and it leads to fast growth(my house was new construction with a bare yard in august 04).

By the way dypsis are very tough to keep happy here, I have one dypsis baronii in deep shade, ots doping OK, shows leaflet tip drying at this time and is cold sensitive so I have it really protected up against the house under canopy. I have not had much success with a number of other dypsis, even as house plants, most hate the dry. D. Decaryi is a possibility, but will get burned at 26F, and I have talked to growers that have had they die in the cold here. D. Decipiens might also be a possibility(tolerates to 20F), but they grow very slowly and dont like the hot and dry so much.

Tom

Edited July 15, 2009 by sonoranfans

[sonoranfans]

I would say 90% of the S. romanzoffiana look terrible here. But there are quite a few that look amazing! I'm convinced that with the correct care, I can grow some amazing marginal palms.

I am only staying in Las Vegas for 3 more years, so don't want to plant anything too expensive or too slow-growing.

My yard is almost all drought-tolerant plants, but I reserved the most protected section of the yard for the more exciting plants It doesn't get sun in the hottest part of the day and is protected from the wind.

This is the way to go, keep them out of the late day sun, good luck.